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Mortyman
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Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:40 am

Two Tupolev 22 M " Backfire " were seen close to Norwegian airspace in a classical attack position off the coast of Bodø, Norway. They actually carried long range missile ( used for nuclear bombs ). This was on the 28th August this year. However the Tupolev's returned well before they came within the Norwegian 12 nautical miles marker off Norway's coast.

Norwegian F 16 went up to inspect...

The Norwegian defence does not regard the incident as a provocation. But unusual.

However even though it is regarded an unusual manouver , the Russians were not breaking any Norwegian airspace.

Our Russian neighbour has really boomed up their excersizes lately...



Article in Norwegian:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/article2041674.ece
 
Super98
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:04 am

This "muscle flexing" of late is getting more and more irresponsible.

This may be the spark that creates the next great conflict.

Is Russia looking for a new cold war? Are they nostalgic to return to the old days of stability and bi-hegemini with the US?

Are they trying to impress client states?

What is going on here? What will Putin's successor do with all the resentment that this is engendering?

This will eventually lead us to a very bad place again!

RM
 
NG1Fan
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting Super98 (Reply 1):
This "muscle flexing" of late is getting more and more irresponsible.

Is it? They are 'merely' resuming air patrols suspended because they couldn't afford them. Pilots need stick-time, right?

That's not to say that the world is looking forward to additional tensions.

There is a saying in Russian: if they fear us, they respect us'.

NG1Fan
 
PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:42 am

Something for MilAv Forum?
 
PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
However the Tupolev's returned well before they came within the Norwegian 12 nautical miles marker off Norway's coast.

That's an AS.4 missile under its belly. It has up to 900km range and potentially a nuclear warhead. It did not had to breach my 12mile zone to pose a provocation to me.
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting NG1Fan (Reply 2):
There is a saying in Russian: if they fear us, they respect us'.

Yah, and look what it got them at the end of the Cold War, a country that fell apart. I dont think many people "respect" Russia so much as act a little differently around them to keep things cool.

Quoting Super98 (Reply 1):
This "muscle flexing" of late is getting more and more irresponsible.

This may be the spark that creates the next great conflict.

Is Russia looking for a new cold war? Are they nostalgic to return to the old days of stability and bi-hegemini with the US?

Are they trying to impress client states?

What is going on here? What will Putin's successor do with all the resentment that this is engendering?

This will eventually lead us to a very bad place again!

In my opinion (which is one of actually having faith in the US), the only thing to fear from Russia is a nuclear attack. Now I'd like to think that they are still smart enough to not use that option, but who knows. As far as conventional war that may be sparked as a result, I think Russia would come out wishing they hadn't been pulling this elementary school bulls**t. And if Russian pilots need stick time, there is PLENTY of Russian airspace not bordering other countries in which they can do it. US pilots don't go get their stick time by arming themselves with nuclear weapons then flying up and down the Russian's airspace. Russians have nothing to gain and everything to loose from this.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
sovietjet
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:02 pm

You guys are overreacting. Resuming air patrols is not going to bring in another Cold war or any great conflict. How is this endangering? Who cares if they fly close to the border as long as they are in their airspace? A country has the right to fly in ALL of their airspace right? And those missiles can be fitted with conventional warheads, they're not flying around with nuclear munitions. Stop your complaining. It's not like the US or any other country doesn't fly close to the airspace of neighbors.
 
OV735
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Nor

Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 6):
And those missiles can be fitted with conventional warheads, they're not flying around with nuclear munitions.

"Good news, Boss! They didn't hit us with a nuke, but just a conventional bomb!" Big grin
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 6):
You guys are overreacting. Resuming air patrols is not going to bring in another Cold war or any great conflict. How is this endangering? Who cares if they fly close to the border as long as they are in their airspace? A country has the right to fly in ALL of their airspace right? And those missiles can be fitted with conventional warheads, they're not flying around with nuclear munitions. Stop your complaining. It's not like the US or any other country doesn't fly close to the airspace of neighbors.

As long as they stay out of Norwegian airspace, it's OK. However Norway has to stay alert. We're a small country next to a very large and powerful one. We have to take precautions.

And, no we wont have a new cold war, but we may come in conflict with Russia in the future. Right now, alot of things are happening up north, in the Barents sea and the arctic. Alot of new resources are found and will be exploited, such as oil and gas and new transport ways, if the ice cap melts. Where there is alot of resources, there is usually conflict between nations, fighting ovr them,. I hope it wont happen, and it might be other countries and not Russia that will pick a fight, but to think that everything will be peaceful no matter what, may prove to be naive.
 
cactushp
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Nor

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:40 am

No. The posters above are not overreacting. The difference between an ordinary Tu-22 flying near a border and this incident, is that the aircraft was clearly carrying munitions, which very likely were nuclear.
Sorry, I was on the landline
 
cactushp
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:45 am

No. The posters above are not overreacting. The difference between an ordinary Tu-22 flying near someones airspace and this incident, is that the aircraft was carrying munitions, which were very likely to be nuclear. This will inherently create more tension than if a drone or something like that was flying near Norway.
Sorry, I was on the landline
 
Oroka
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:09 am

Russia is drumming up business for the Eurofighter and various American fighters!  bigthumbsup   duck 
 
sovietjet
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8):
And, no we wont have a new cold war, but we may come in conflict with Russia in the future. Right now, alot of things are happening up north, in the Barents sea and the arctic. Alot of new resources are found and will be exploited, such as oil and gas and new transport ways, if the ice cap melts. Where there is alot of resources, there is usually conflict between nations, fighting ovr them,. I hope it wont happen, and it might be other countries and not Russia that will pick a fight, but to think that everything will be peaceful no matter what, may prove to be naive

I agree. Russia and Norway are on good temrs, there is no reason to fear anything for now. I was just responding to the general overreaction that somehow a plane flying with missiles close to the border is a sign of a new war brewing
 
highlander0
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 11):
Russia is drumming up business for the Eurofighter and various American fighters!

Damn, how did you work it out! alert 

Its all part of a secret ploy by BAe and Northrup Grumman.  biggrin   biggrin 


Perhaps another factor to the increase in reports is due to the Litvenenko case, and the media response and now, almost microscopic analysis (espescially in the UK media) to anything aviation related over the North Sea.
 
N74JW
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 5):
In my opinion (which is one of actually having faith in the US), the only thing to fear from Russia is a nuclear attack.

Another big risk from Russia is the mob and their army of botnet-equipped hackers. The electronic frontier can be the future battleground. Denial of service attacks can destroy communications.
rm -r *
 
TheCol
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Nor

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting Oroka (Reply 11):

Agreed. A good excuse for Canada to purchase F-35's and or increase the CF-18 fleet beyond current DND plans.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Norlander
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 6):
A country has the right to fly in ALL of their airspace right?

If they where 12-20 miles from Lofoten and Bodø they were nowhere near Russian airspace.
Longtime Lurker
 
Oroka
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting N74jw (Reply 14):
Its all part of a secret ploy by BAe and Northrup Grumman

It is actually a Iranian F-14 with only one vertical stab, they are saying it is now hypersonic, space capable, and transforms into a fighting robot!

 
ebj1248650
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8):
As long as they stay out of Norwegian airspace, it's OK. However Norway has to stay alert. We're a small country next to a very large and powerful one. We have to take precautions.

True enough. And Russia may simply be trying to re-establish itself as a world power. The question is whether they're trying to be an intimidating world power or one that just wants to make sure Russia can hold its own in the grand scheme of things. Hard to tell.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:50 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 18):
The question is whether they're trying to be an intimidating world power or one that just wants to make sure Russia can hold its own in the grand scheme of things

That is an extremely thin line. And as long as there are other world powers that clearly use their power to intimidate Russia, I cannot not believe that Russia aims at becoming this kind of self-focused world power. They are actually forced to re-intimidate in order to keep the opposing world powers at bay. Re-intimidating by canceling the KSE and INF treaties for instance ... just as it happens these days.

Wasn't it GWB that came up the the self-focused world power idea very early in his first term and before 9/11? I remember him talking about putting a greater emphasis on domestic problems and that he would like the US to get rid of its role as the world's cop ...
 
Blackbird
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:08 pm

Well, Russias President, Vladimir Putin, who's ex-KGB, did say one of the greatest tragedies was the fall of the Soviet Union...

And maybe he's sick of the US going without any country to counterbalance it... I'd be eyeing the Russians actions with a close eye, let's put it that way if they start flying off the coasts of our allies with cruise missiles that could potentially be nuclear...

These weapons have a significant range and pose a threat way beyond the 12nm distance off the coast...


Andrea Kent
 
Thorben
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:06 pm

Putin certainly is sane enough not to really start trouble. I think this has mainly interior reasons, he is trying to bring back some things from the Soviet time that people in Russia miss - the feeling of being a feared power. The experience post-1991, when they couldn't fly the planes, because of the lack of money, everywhere, is certainly still in the mind of many Russian. Putin is trying to compensate, it has to do with the election next year, those flights might actually be reduced after it.

From the military perspective, where is really the danger? NATO forces could shoot everything down that the Russians have, Tu-22s and Tu-95 are amazing aircraft, but completely outdated.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
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glideslope
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Nor

Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:29 am

You would think they would tone this down with their opposition to the Anti Missile set up un Poland and the Check Rep. Several scenarios.

1) Intimidate Europe, Europe pressures US to scrap Missile deployment.

2) Intimidate the US, Well, you'll need More than the 2 TU-22 they have flying. Bears are Model T's.

3) Intimidate Poland and the Check Rep to back out.

4) Simply a move to reinvigorate the Russian Armed Forces. Defections are at their highest rate in history.

5) Putin really was pissed off by GHW Bush for telling him to act like a submissive 3rd world power with nukes during the retreat overnight in Maine.

6) IMO, in the future there will be more tension between China and Russia than the US. Russia has the natural resources that China needs.

7) Or there all wrong and Putin wants the world to know not to mess with him when he appoints his replacement (vote cough, cough) and becomes Prime Minister to rule for another term and President.

[Edited 2007-10-13 17:30:56]
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
sovietjet
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:42 am

The Tu-95 and Tu-22M are old for sure but to say they are completely outdated Model Ts is just plain ignorant. Remember USA is still flying old B-52s as well. Both sides obviously update their aircraft. Neither the B-52s nor the Tu-95s flying now are at all similar to what flew in the early 50s.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Nor

Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 22):
Intimidate Europe, Europe pressures US to scrap Missile deployment.

Which is happening these days ...

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 22):
Well, you'll need More than the 2 TU-22 they have flying. Bears are Model T's.

They have several dozent Tu-22 flying and the Tu's have been built in the late 80 and early 90s. It merely the designation that is old. All the TU-96s in service are Tu-142 based airframes.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 22):
Intimidate Poland and the Check Rep to back out.

It's the Czech Republic. Second, you can't intimidate the Poles or the Czechs without intimidating NATO, without intimidating the US.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 22):
Simply a move to reinvigorate the Russian Armed Forces.

A reason among others ...

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 22):
Defections are at their highest rate in history.

It has been higher during the Chechen wars.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 22):
Putin really was pissed off

Russians are proud people. Pride and honour do have an important meaning for them. And they are extremely patriotic to say the least ...

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 22):
IMO, in the future there will be more tension between China and Russia than the US. Russia has the natural resources that China needs.

The cancellation of the INF treaty is clearly aimed at Pakistan, India and China. But I don't think conflict will be about resources.

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 22):
Or there all wrong and Putin wants the world to know not to mess with him when he appoints his replacement (vote cough, cough) and becomes Prime Minister to rule for another term and President.

Putin did not has to manipulate election results. He is extremely popular among his people (and so were other despots early in their time). But it is very important to acknowledge that they have elections these days and he already denied multiple times that he intends to change the constitution so that he could get into office for a third term. He has got no reputation as a turncoat whatsoever, more that of a brilliant strategist.

[Edited 2007-10-14 01:33:46]
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:13 pm

Again, Russia is in an economical boom these days, and they are using much of their money on the military. Subarines and Aircraft. This discussion that Bear and TUpoleves are old aircraft is not that interesting, if the Russians make new aircraft.
 
Norlander
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:07 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 25):

I'm waiting for them to unveil a new version of the TU-160, with more modern technologies. That would be something.
Longtime Lurker
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 21):
From the military perspective, where is really the danger? NATO forces could shoot everything down that the Russians have, Tu-22s and Tu-95 are amazing aircraft, but completely outdated.

Agree'd I will worry when they start flying new planes around until then let them waste their fuel.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 24):
Which is happening these days ...

Dont bet on it seems to me that Poland has decided to align itself along with the Czechs with the US. I am not sure that either country will listen to hard to the other european nations. Those two seem to have their own agneda and its to keep in line with the US, why do you think those two specif countries were chosen and not say like Germany or austria the system could work as well in those two countries also.

I'm waiting for them to unveil a new version of the TU-160, with more modern technologies. That would be something.

Uh Yeah a B-1B

[Edited 2007-10-14 22:39:27]
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 24):
Putin did not has to manipulate election results. He is extremely popular among his people (and so were other despots early in their time). But it is very important to acknowledge that they have elections these days and he already denied multiple times that he intends to change the constitution so that he could get into office for a third term. He has got no reputation as a turncoat whatsoever, more that of a brilliant strategist.

[Edited 2007-10-14 01:33:46]

Dont hold your Breath!!!!
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:14 pm

Two TU160 " Blackjack " was flying near Norways' airspace last night:



This is a picture taken earlier

The AMerican eqvalient to the TU 160 would be the B1 LAncer

The two planes was shadowed by Norwegian F 16's for 45 minutes. They headed towards the UK where British figthers took over the shadowing.

See video of Royal Norwegian Airforce F 16's responding to " Bear " flights near Norwegian shores earlier this year. This is video from the 330 sq:

http://netttv.aftenposten.no/play/ge...s=0&category_id=3&videosbefore[0]=



More pictures from various Russian planes near Norway this year:

http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00619/_QRA_-_foto_331_skv_619725a.jpg

http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00619/_QRA_-_foto_331_skv_619726a.jpg

Tupolev 22 with cruise misile attached...

[img]http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00618/_tupolev_bruk_jpg_618517a.jpg
[/img]


Tupolev 95 " Bear ":

[img]http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00616/ARKIV_M17Fly0810_jp_616579a.jpg
[/img]
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:15 pm

Tupolev 22 with cruise misile attached...

http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00618/_tupolev_bruk_jpg_618517a.jpg


Tupolev 95 " Bear ":

http://cache.aftenposten.no/multimedia/archive/00616/ARKIV_M17Fly0810_jp_616579a.jpg
 
PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:23 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 29):
The AMerican eqvalient to the TU 160 would be the B1 LAncer

The Tu-160 and B-1B may look similar, but apart from that are entirely differently airplanes to start with.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 29):
More pictures from various Russian planes near Norway this year:

Well, but we have take care not to exaggerate here. Norway and Russia are neighboring countries. It is not unusual or provocative in the first place that Russian airplanes fly near Norwegian air space. One had had to look into each single flight path and assess whether the flight can be considered acceptable or provocative.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:32 pm

It is provocative that they take very special interest in flying near our oil and gas fields in the North sea. They have'nt flown in that area since the Cold war.

Now I for one don't think that anything will happen anytime soon. we wont have a new Cold War. However to think that Russia is gonna play nice no matter what is naive.

I have taken great care in making clear that they have not flown over or through Norwegian airspace.


The Norwegian defence ministary is very careful no to make a big deal about this. The Norwegian people does'nt nesseserely feel the same way however.
 
TheCol
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 32):
It is provocative that they take very special interest in flying near our oil and gas fields in the North sea. They have'nt flown in that area since the Cold war.

They're competing for the same portion of the arctic that Canada, Norway, Denmark, and the Americans are. However, Russia doesn't want to play nice. Instead of waiting to go through the proper UN channels like the rest of us are, Russia would rather try to intimidate us. Thats the whole point behind these flights.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 32):
The Norwegian defence ministary is very careful no to make a big deal about this. The Norwegian people does'nt nesseserely feel the same way however.

The Russians can't be trusted. If Norway wasn't a member of NATO, they wouldn't have reservations about violating your national airspace.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
OlegShv
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 33):
f Norway wasn't a member of NATO, they wouldn't have reservations about violating your national airspace.

How do you know what they would do if Norway were not a part of NATO?

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 27):
I'm waiting for them to unveil a new version of the TU-160, with more modern technologies. That would be something.

Uh Yeah a B-1B

Can you please elaborate on your statement that a B1-B is superior compared to a Tu-160. Performance specs don't look in the favor of B1-B...
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 31):
The Tu-160 and B-1B may look similar, but apart from that are entirely differently airplanes to start with.

Well Considering one is American and one is Russian I would assume so. Once again also interesting that the Russian one came much later than the American. I'm sorry for those of you who swear the Russians don't copy anything, but the very obvius evidence says they do. Unless you can come up with an equal or greater number of Russian designs that came before American ones and also look a HELL OF A LOT like the American designs?
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
Acheron
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 35):

How about you start enumerating all the planes you claim to be "copies".
 
sovietjet
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:25 am

There is always that one person on every thread dealing with Russian aircraft that will claim that they are all copies.


It's a pretty ignorant statement, but I'll bite.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 35):
but the very obvius evidence says they do

Really? Please show me this very obvious evidence. I'm very curious to see it.

Before you go digging for it...I'll fill you in on the details of Tu-160 history. The new bomber program was brought up in the late 60's with three competing bureaus: Tupolev, Sukhoi and Myasischev. Each had their own designs, Sukhoi came up with an upgraded version of the T-4 known as the T-4MS. Myasischev came up with the M-18 and M-20(although they rejected the M-20 soon). Tupolev came up with.....a bomber version of the Tu-144 called the 160M. Tupolev's design was flawed from the start, the "powers that be" didn't like it and it was rejected multiple times, only surviving due to Tupolev's personal power among the committees. The clear winner was the Sukhoi OKB, the T-4MS met all the requirements and was an impressive aircraft which actually looked nothing like a B-1. The M-18 also met the requirements but the Sukhoi design was chosen. Here is where it gets tricky. Sukhoi had their hands full with the Su-27 development and upgrading Su-17s and Su-24s. Myasischev's bureau had just been recreated recently, and it was decided he neither has the manufacturing capability nor the experience necessary to create prototypes. It was then decided that all documentation regarding the T-4MS and M-18 be transferred to Tupolev since his bureau had previous bomber experience, where he can develop the new bomber. he was advised to develop the T-4MS, but as Tupolev is a conservative designer, he rejected it in favor of the M-18 and built that in the form of the Tu-160.

Just for reference, both the B-1 and M-18 were projects were launched in 1969-1970 with the M-18 presented in 1972. Bombers with variable wings were not unheard of by then, you had the Tu-22M developing, there was no need to copy a Western design. Mig-23s, Su-17s and Su-24s were also being produced. Variable wings were a "fashion trend" of aircraft design at the time. It can be seen on the Western side as well...Tornado, F-14, F-111...

And the T-4MS which was the REAL winner here, actually looks quite unlike anything American.



Keep in mind that although the B-1 and Tu-160 are similar in layout, the Tu-160 is bigger, faster and more powerful.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 35):
Unless you can come up with an equal or greater number of Russian designs that came before American ones

Is this a contest? Here are some:

Su-7, Su-17/22, Su-9/11, Mig-21, Mig-23/27, Mig-25, Mig-29, Mig-31, Su-15, Tu-16, Tu-22, Tu-22M, Tu-95, Tu-128, I can go on...there are plenty more


PS: Sorry for the off-topic

[Edited 2007-10-16 22:35:40]
 
PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 35):
Well Considering one is American and one is Russian I would assume so. Once again also interesting that the Russian one came much later than the American. I'm sorry for those of you who swear the Russians don't copy anything, but the very obvius evidence says they do. Unless you can come up with an equal or greater number of Russian designs that came before American ones and also look a HELL OF A LOT like the American designs?

Dimensions, range, payload, mission, speed etc etc ... all different.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:30 am

The external shape of the planes is dictated by physics. The B-1 and the Tu-160 are designed to fly at appr. the same speeds and a similar mission profile. As a result they look externally similar, simply due to aerodynamics.
The same applies to the Space shuttle and Buran or the Concorde and the TU-144.

Jan
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PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
The B-1 and the Tu-160 are designed to fly at appr. the same speeds and a similar mission profile

The Tu-160 can do Mach 2 while the B-1B's max speed is somewhere around Mach 1.3. The Tu-160 is about 10-20% larger, has more range, higher payload and is A LOT heavier. It has an even 55tonnes higher MTOW compared to a B-52H. I am not saying it is more advanced, but apart from shape they are more different than similar.
 
TheCol
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Nor

Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:57 pm

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 34):
How do you know what they would do if Norway were not a part of NATO?

Talk to someone from one of the former eastern block countries.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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Scooter01
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 41):
Talk to someone from one of the former eastern block countries.

Most of the pre-'91 people are still there....

Scooter01
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TheCol
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 42):

Yeah, that too...  Wink
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
Thorben
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 30):

One just has to love that tail gunner that the Tu-95 has. How pre-historic, do they really expect to shoot anything down with that thing?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
How pre-historic, do they really expect to shoot anything down with that thing?

A too curious jet fighter trying to visually intercept the Tu-95 would probably be a safe kill for the tail gunner.
 
N74JW
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 45):
A too curious jet fighter trying to visually intercept the Tu-95 would probably be a safe kill for the tail gunner.

I think the inteceptors can do a visual confirmation that is well out of the range of the Tu-95's tail gunner. The F-15A had a telescope fitted for awhile.
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PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting N74JW (Reply 46):
I think the inteceptors can do a visual confirmation that is well out of the range of the Tu-95's tail gunner. The F-15A had a telescope fitted for awhile.

Sure, I thought of a situation where an attack would not be anticipated. An EF can identify the TU-95 by radar from a hundred miles away by "non-cooperative target recognition". It essentially maps the radar image against a database on the airplane. I read the APG-77 of the F-22 has a similar functionality ...
 
N74JW
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Norway

Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:05 pm

Right, I still think a pilot would approach the Tu-95 from underneath, and below the arc of tail gunner's range of fire. Then the interceptor can move up and alongside the Tu-95 safely. I do not know the precise rules of engagement, but a preemptive missile lock on the bomber by the interceptor would assure the tail gunner relaxes. I do not think that would go over as well for international diplomacy (???). An F-15 pilot I once interviewed described precisely that tactic in use during the cold war while performing intercepts off of the US East Coast. The bear tail gunners would mess-around and point the tail guns at the F-15s. The eagle drivers would then place a radar lock on the bear. A few moments later the tail gun would be stowed back into position.
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PADSpot
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RE: Tu 22 " Backfire " 22M In Attack Mode Near Nor

Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting N74jw (Reply 48):
I do not know the precise rules of engagement, but a preemptive missile lock on the bomber by the interceptor would assure the tail gunner relaxes.

A radar lock-on outside the scope of an exercise and in international air space is a hostile act.

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