Acheron
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Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:07 am

Quote:
TOKYO, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Japan is considering buying Eurofighter Typhoons to replace part of its ageing air force fleet, Defence Minister Shigeru Ishiba said in an interview on Wednesday.

Tokyo had shown interest in buying the Lockheed-Martin (LMT.N: Quote, Profile , Research) F-22 Raptor, which boasts stealth capabilities far superior to those of any other aircraft available, but the U.S. government is reluctant to allow the technology to be exported, even to a close ally such as Japan.

This is news to me, wonder how much was leaked.

Quote:
A scandal erupted this year when Japanese naval officers were reported to have leaked classified information about the Aegis radar system used on U.S. and Japanese missile-defence capable ships.

Anyhow, seems that Japan its pushing some buttons to get the Raptor.

http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/...RIDST_0_JAPAN-DEFENCE-FIGHTERS.XML
 
columba
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:15 am

A high ranked Eurofighter manager has just stated that the have high hopes on selling the aircraft to Japan. Would be as good news as JAL ordering the A380  Smile
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PADSpot
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 1):
A high ranked Eurofighter manager has just stated that the have high hopes on selling the aircraft to Japan. Would be as good news as JAL ordering the A380

 Smile ... yep would be a good move, although I think this more meant as a demonstration of consequences if the US further stick to the export ban on the F-22. Selling EFs to Japan might be as likely as selling A380s or A350s ... but sure it would be great.

Does anybody know how export sales are allocated to final assembly sites? BAe builds EFs for Saudi Arabia, EADS Germany for Austria but who WOULD build Greek, Dutch, Norwegian, Swiss or Japanese EFs IN CASE they ordered them and did not demand license production (as Japan certainly did).
 
N74JW
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:17 pm

I think is a great prospect for Japan and the Eurofighter consortium.
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art
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):
Does anybody know how export sales are allocated to final assembly sites? BAe builds EFs for Saudi Arabia, EADS Germany for Austria but who WOULD build Greek, Dutch, Norwegian, Swiss or Japanese EFs

I think that the 4 countries participating in Eurofighter are individually allocated areas in each one is responsible for marketing the Typhoon. I think that if you get a sale, you get to assemble the aircraft involved in the sale.
 
Bobski
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 pm

I'm working in procurement BAE Systems at the moment, and Japan is considered to be a serious potential export customer. Raptor, while a very good aircraft (I prefer Typhoon, but then I'm biased as I'm working on the programme), is extremely expensive and the likelihood of the American Gov't allowing exports of it anytime soon are very slim.

[Edited 2007-10-18 07:54:04]
Who is Benjamin Breeg?
 
Bobski
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:56 pm

Quoting Bobski (Reply 5):
I think that the 4 countries participating in Eurofighter are individually allocated areas in each one is responsible for marketing the Typhoon. I think that if you get a sale, you get to assemble the aircraft involved in the sale.

He who makes the sale does the final assembly for the aircraft. Each partner nation in the consortium still builds their individual parts (e.g. the front fuselages at BAE Samlesbury). A Japanese order would likely include licence built a/c.
Who is Benjamin Breeg?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:59 pm

Would the EuroFighters replace just the JASDF F-4Js, or the F-15Js, too? Would they be built, under license, in Japan, like most of the F-4Js and F-15Js were?

Quoting Acheron (Thread starter):
Quote:
A scandal erupted this year when Japanese naval officers were reported to have leaked classified information about the Aegis radar system used on U.S. and Japanese missile-defence capable ships.

Yeap, that will help their case to buy the F-22, or even the F-35. Tell everyone how the AEGIS radar on the Tico class CGs and Burke class DDGs work.  banghead 
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
Would the EuroFighters replace just the JASDF F-4Js, or the F-15Js, too? Would they be built, under license, in Japan, like most of the F-4Js and F-15Js were?

Replace the F-4s first, I'm sure. As I recall, Japan got their Eagles fairly early in the program so they're likely at the age where they need replacement relatively soon as well.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:57 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 8):
Replace the F-4s first, I'm sure. As I recall, Japan got their Eagles fairly early in the program so they're likely at the age where they need replacement relatively soon as well.

I agree on the F-4Js, which are close to the USAF F-4E configuration, the last delivered in the mid 1970s. But, they bought the F-15Js in two buys (all of their F-15s are called "J" models). The first buy were really F-15A/Bs, some 45 airplanes (built in the mid 1980s), the second buy of about 60 airplanes were actually F-15C/Ds Built in the early 1990s). As I said all JASDF F-15s are designated F-15Js, I believe they use block numbers to separate the differences.
 
GDB
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:23 pm

Didn't they update their F-4EJ fleet, including with APG-66 radar?
Even so, they are in need of replacement.
It will be interesting to see how they do it, an enhanced version of the F-2 fighter, seems out of the running.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:56 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):
It will be interesting to see how they do it, an enhanced version of the F-2 fighter, seems out of the running.

They might have the existing F-2s replace the F-4EJs, the older F-15Js take on the job vacated by the F-2s, the newer F-15Js remaining as frontline fighters until the new buys take over the F-15C/Ds.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
keesje
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:23 pm

There is a weapons race going on in Asia. All they want is F22s, the only western aircraft that can face the su-30 mki 's piling up in the region, and it doesn't stop with the Flankers.. The Chinese are not sitting on their hands.


J-XX, Chinese new fighter.

Japan is applying political pressure on the US to allow export of the F22. They are also threatened to start developing their own steatlh fighter.

Aircraft like the J-10 (likely developed with IAI (Lavi)) are entering mass production.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/62/Chengdu_J-10_3-view.gif/800px-Chengdu_J-10_3-view.gif
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
N74JW
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:07 pm

Great post Keesje!

Where did you find that stuff?
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britjap
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:40 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
J-XX, Chinese new fighter

From everything Ive read about that in the past year it seems that it is nothing more than a model. Not even a test frame of any sort, purely just a model.

Thats what I am hoping anyway!!
 
keesje
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:20 am

The J-XX is planned for 2015, this picture is likely a mock-up / study model.

issue is the Japanese Phantoms are up for replacement in a few years & the replacement have to last 20 yrs.

Buying Eurofighter would probably not create the level of confidence the Japanese want.

And the Chineese industry is studying more models.


Shenyang J-12


Chengdu J-13

In the mean time they are ramping up J-10 production.



and chineese pilots are building up experience on their Su-27J-11Su-30 fleets



The SU30's giant aesa radars & vimpel missiles aren't really inferior either.

Now imagine you are a Japanese Phantom pilot. I think you realize you need an upgrade soon to face the next 20 yrs and probably not a Typhoon.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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autothrust
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Sa

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:01 am

J-XX, Chinese new fighter.

LOL, with such big Candards it will have a RCS of a 747 but doesn't matter anyway its only a model.

Quote:
Ishiba said the strongest alternative among planes manufactured by other countries was the Eurofighter.

"The French Rafale is difficult to use. We certainly wouldn't choose a Russian fighter plane.

So much for the outdated concept crap. The French Rafale is difficult to use ; in other words Radar not enough Range and no LPI, no supercruise, insufficient sensorfusion, etc..

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Buying Eurofighter would probably not create the level of confidence the Japanese want.

And the RAFALE or J-XX or Su-30 would?  crazy  Japanes MOD dont agree with this. But hey what do they know...

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):

The SU30's giant aesa radars & vimpel missiles aren't really inferior either.

The radar is difficult to say, however the vimpel are much inferior then the METEOR.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
columba
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Buying Eurofighter would probably not create the level of confidence the Japanese want.

But it still the best to get for them if they don´t get the F-22. The Typhoon Tranche 3 equiped with Meteor and other new missles will be a good and state of the art aircraft. Maybe Eurofighter will develop some modification for Japan and offer them a partnership.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
keesje
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 16):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Buying Eurofighter would probably not create the level of confidence the Japanese want.

... or J-XX or Su-30 would? Japanes MOD dont agree with this.

 beady  uhm.. they are the most likely opponents Auto..

They need something to scare away possibel J-XX / Su 30MKI

The Typhoon is probably not the airpower they really need want for that requirement.

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/447B0D38-658E-42AF-901B-CA755E5864F7/0/GLD075255.jpg

I have the feeling you don't really believe this is all about getting Japan getting its 100 F22 do you?

They feel they have to act because of the Chinees weapon build up. Same goes for South Korea and India.

http://wpherald.com/articles/4535/1/...rlds-second-biggest-air-force.html

Japan signals they will fill in this requirement anyway, with or without the US. They already started working with the french on their own now the Mitsubishi ATD-X.


Mitsubishi ATD-X http://jasonjeffrey.wordpress.com/20...r-announced-as-return-of-the-zero/

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Bobski
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:25 pm

You don't need a Raptor to counter an Su-30MKI. Typhoon is more than up to the task, as the Indians found out over the summer.

Typhoon is more agile than any potential adversary, that is a fact. It has flown against and beaten all of its competition in exercises and in fly-offs. The only exception being the Raptor, although there are reports of Typhoon flying against and beating the Raptor in the US recently.
Who is Benjamin Breeg?
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:09 pm

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
although there are reports of Typhoon flying against and beating the Raptor in the US recently.

I'd like to have a link to any of these if you can give them  Smile
 
N74JW
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
You don't need a Raptor to counter an Su-30MKI. Typhoon is more than up to the task, as the Indians found out over the summer.

The Indians did hold back a bit. Their radar sets were turned off in most of the engagements to satisfy the Russian export requirement, and in light of prowling USAF RC-135s. To the same extent, the Typhoon was not used to it's fullest potential in IAF engagements for the same reasons.
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keesje
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
You don't need a Raptor to counter an Su-30MKI. Typhoon is more than up to the task, as the Indians found out over the summer.

Lets keep pride & hope away from reality.

The newer Flankers have Thrust steering. The have a very powerfull BARS ESA 1 metre class X-band phased array antenna radar and potent AA weaponary, http://www.ausairpower.net/russian-aams.png including serious air to surface.. When new radars under devlopment are retrofitted (Irbis E) the issue grows.



http://www.ausairpower.net/Su-30-AAMs.png

I'm not trying to scare you folks  Wink , just explaining why the Japanese probably won't think the Typhoon is the best solution for them and they are trying to get F22's rather sooner then later. They don't want to be outgunned.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Sa

Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:51 pm

Well ATC is always going to play a critical role, as well. If you can smoke your target 100 klicks out because your controllers can vector you into firing position well before the other guy's controllers can, having fancy missiles and on-board radars (which just help your opponent's missiles find you that much easier) isn't going to be much help...

And that is an area where Japan, ROK, and Singapore will likely be at an advantage to China...

Of course, I expect the USAF might like some more F-22 buys to lower the unit cost to help them get more of their own through Congress, and LM/Boeing I am sure would like to sell more.
 
N74JW
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Sa

Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:35 pm

Is it out of the question that the USAF may eventually base some F-22A's in Japan? Would the JASDF need to buy then at that point? No doubt, the F-4EJ's do need to be retired and are probably up on their airframe hours.
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texl1649
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:04 pm

No USAF F-22's in Japan. There won't be any 'extras' to base there. Japan will probably be allowed to purchase the F-22's pretty soon, as will Australia if they really want to pay for them. Containing the Chinese is going to be the major geopolitical and military challenge over the next half-century, second only geopolitically to the islamofascists.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Sa

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 20):
I'd like to have a link to any of these if you can give them

As you wish , Sir!  Smile

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1818077.stm

Quote:
The US Air Force has already begun to take delivery of another superjet, the F-22 Raptor.

This is very stealthy but costs twice the price of the Eurofighter, and reports suggest that RAF's Eurofighters have flown highly successful missions against the F-22 during recent exercises in the US.

Air Power Review, Volume 20

Quote:

Typhoon has deployed to the US for tests by the Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU), presumably from England. In skirmishes with the F-22A, the Typhoon dominated the Within Visual Range engagements and apparently this really didn't surprise anyone because Typhoon is known for having outstanding agility. When it scored a radar lock on the F-22A at Beyond Visual Range, that caused quite a stir.

Whether this is true or not is will let decide you.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:14 pm

thanks for the links!

quite interesting!
 
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autothrust
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:23 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 27):
thanks for the links!

Np, you are welcome. I think a lot of people underate the EF because of the look of the aircraft.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
columba
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:50 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 28):
I think a lot of people underate the EF because of the look of the aircraft.

No most people (at least in Germany) do because they still think of it as the "Jaeger 90", developed in the 1980s to fight East German and Russian Migs.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Acheron
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
The SU30's giant aesa radars & vimpel missiles aren't really inferior either.

The N011 Bars radar is PESA, not AESA. Same for the newest N035 Irbis-E on the Su-35 and the improved version to be installed in the PAK-FA.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 16):
The radar is difficult to say, however the vimpel are much inferior then the METEOR.

Don't worry, there is a ramjet version on the way and other improved variants. Also don't forget the K-100 long-range missiles with a range of, roughtly, 300-350km.

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
You don't need a Raptor to counter an Su-30MKI. Typhoon is more than up to the task, as the Indians found out over the summer.

I really doubt we will ever find out what really happened during those excercises, since most of the information its classified, so anything said here is mostly speculation and nothing else.

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
Typhoon is more agile than any potential adversary, that is a fact. It has flown against and beaten all of its competition in exercises and in fly-offs.

I wouldn't make such statements unless I can back it up with proofs, other than a newsarticle, of course. So, please do.
 
N74JW
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 25):
No USAF F-22's in Japan. There won't be any 'extras' to base there. Japan will probably be allowed to purchase the F-22's pretty soon, as will Australia if they really want to pay for them.

I would not be so sure about that. PACAF already has two bases slated for F-22A's. It would not be much of a stretch to forward-deploy them if necessary. Are we going to keep the F-15's and F-16's in Japan forever, or will we roll-back our forces as the Japanese acquire, or builds, 'newer' equipment? I do not think the F-22 should be exported to any nation for reasons of national security. The same reasoning that prevented the F-117's export.
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PADSpot
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 26):
When it scored a radar lock on the F-22A at Beyond Visual Range, that caused quite a stir.

That wouldn't surprise me if it had PIRATE installed. Through sensor fusion radar can be locked on a target which is tracked by the IRST. If meteorological conditions aren't too bad the range if PIRATE is larger than that of AMRAAMs. The F-22 still has an advantage, because it can prepare its attack much earlier, but given the natural limitation of the EFs design its performance is outstanding.

Without PIRATE I doubt that lock-on occurred anywhere near a tactically relevant distance.

No surprise that the EF dominated the WVR area.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 30):
The N011 Bars radar is PESA, not AESA. Same for the newest N035 Irbis-E on the Su-35 and the improved version to be installed in the PAK-FA.

The Chinese have currently the most powerful SU-30 radar in testing, based on the N011, but with a new high-power AESA antenna and some additional processing power. I wonder why Taiwan has not already ask for F-22?! They probably know the answer ...
 
Devilfish
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
The J-XX is planned for 2015, this picture is likely a mock-up / study model.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):

They need something to scare away possibel J-XX / Su 30MKI

I think Japan is more concerned with this.....

Quoting Acheron (Reply 30):
the improved version to be installed in the PAK-FA.

http://www.npo-saturn.ru/!new/photoshow.php?slang=0&id=29
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 33):

I think Japan is more concerned with this.....

To be fair(and getting ahead of the "russias copies everything" crowd), noone knows how the PAK-FA will look like other than the people working in the project.
There has been several images of concepts floating around and that's one of then. The Russians plan to pit the PAK-FA with F-35 and not the F-22 since the former will become the more numerous 5th Gen plane to enter service and its size wil be between the F-22 and F-35 range. Though the design will probably change again now that India has jumped into the project(the agreement was signed a few days ago).
 
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autothrust
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Sa

Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 29):
do because they still think of it as the "Jaeger 90", developed in the 1980s to fight East German and Russian Migs.

 checkmark  Agreed.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 30):
The N011 Bars radar is PESA, not AESA. Same for the newest N035 Irbis-E on the Su-35 and the improved version to be installed in the PAK-FA.

PESA Radars are considered a technological dead-end. The Captor AESA Radar has been recently tested, soon it will be ready.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 30):
Don't worry, there is a ramjet version on the way and other improved variants.

The Meteor was made to leapfrog any ramjet versions of the vympel. It has a throttleable ducted rocket while the vympel isn't throttleable and can be two -way data linked.(if the plane supports it,Rafale does not)
It has launch success and no-escape zones three times those of the AMRAAM.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 32):
Through sensor fusion radar can be locked on a target which is tracked by the IRST. If meteorological conditions aren't too bad the range if PIRATE is larger than that of AMRAAMs.

True, the Range of the PIRATE is unmatched and in good weather a little more then 100km range has been reported.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
keesje
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:43 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
And that is an area where Japan, ROK, and Singapore will likely be at an advantage to China...

Give them some time, they have the resources / ambitions to start up parallel programs to full-fill requirements.


http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/...laircraft/images/y8aew_05large.jpg
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/...rcraft/images/y8-kj200_02large.jpg

China is investing over the full width of its defense forces. Products are getting better fast.

Weaknesses seem to be engines & electronics. However they can buy, copy and their budgets make cooperation with the russians / french / americans work.

The time of dismissing / ignoring is over.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/images/z10_05large.jpg
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8e.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...umb/2/2b/FBC-1.jpg/800px-FBC-1.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Acheron
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:02 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 35):
PESA Radars are considered a technological dead-end.

According to who?. The russians considered that going AESA for the Su-35 didn't offer any particular advantage, and since they seem to have a achieved a detectection range of 350km-400km for a target with an RCS of 3m2, they did a fine job.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 35):
The Meteor was made to leapfrog any ramjet versions of the vympel.

Unless they have access to whatever the russians are developing, I doubt that's possible beyond a particular amount of time.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 35):
It has a throttleable ducted rocket while the vympel isn't throttleable

Vympel has worked with vectorable rocket engines, since the 80's with the R-73 so it wouldn't be a first nor to hard for them. Besides, having thrust vectoring engines on missiles has a particular disadvantage that once the missile start to run out of fuel, thrust fades, it looses manoeuvrability. Besides, the idea of the BVR's its for the missile to slam on the target, not get into a dogfight with it.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 35):
It has launch success and no-escape zones three times those of the AMRAAM.

Simulations are fine and dandy, when will get real combat experience with a serial missile?.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:22 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
According to who?

According to scientific insights in all defense industries around the world. Russian defense industry is so in love with PESA, because it was all they were left with after the collapse of the Soviet Union. For many many years AESA technology was simply not in reach for them. Manufacturing those RF-emmiters for AESA-radars is extremely complex and expensive. Once could say it is "rocket science".

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
The russians considered that going AESA for the Su-35 didn't offer any particular advantage

How many pages do you want me to fill with advantages of AESA over PESA (for any aircraft)?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
since they seem to have a achieved a detectection range of 350km-400km for a target with an RCS of 3m2, they did a fine job.

Detection ranges are neither best with AESA nor PESA, but the advanatages that come with it, are far more important than mere detection range.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
Simulations are fine and dandy, when will get real combat experience with a serial missile?.

When will Russians get that experience with their product?
 
keesje
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 38):
When will Russians get that experience with their product?

Thing is many recognized the value of buying SU-30 and did so, specially in Asia.


Military operators of the Su-30

Operators of the Su-27:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...x-World_operators_of_the_Su-27.png

The west is carefully watching Novator K-172 development, who will get it and when. Combined with the Su-30 long range tracking capability it could effects western AWACS operations.

http://www.ausairpower.net/Su-30MK+Kh-31-2.png
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PADSpot
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Sun Oct 21, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
Thing is many recognized the value of buying SU-30 and did so, specially in Asia.

We were talking about METEOR and its Russian counterparts, where both are certainly fine products but neither side can claim any sort of combat experience with it.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Sa

Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
The west is carefully watching Novator K-172 development, who will get it and when. Combined with the Su-30 long range tracking capability it could effects western AWACS operations.

The K-172's range of close to two-thirds of the APY-1's range certainly would.

I suppose the next step will be SWAC - Spaceborne Warning and Control. The LaCrosse radar-imaging surveillance satellites are good to around 1m imaging, so all you need to do is get the sensitivity to the point to provide active-tracking. The benefit is you could then cover significantly more area and track targets all the way back to their departure point.

However, the F-22's own AEW&C capabilities will come into play, as well. They can work as the "forward" controller, feeding information back via satellite feed to the AWACS (which would operate beyond their own radar range), which would continue to maintain and control "the big picture".
 
bilgerat
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 41):
The K-172's range of close to two-thirds of the APY-1's range certainly would.

Yes I think this weapon would give USAF and NATO planners some very bad dreams  Smile I suppose the only real countermeasure for the E-3 would be for it to turn off its radar and turn tail and run like hell. Even if the missile doesn't reach its target it has still neutralised the AWACs function of the E-3.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 41):
I suppose the next step will be SWAC - Spaceborne Warning and Control.

That would seem like the next logical step, but I wonder how this would fit in with the whole "non-militarisation of space" idea. Then of course the next countermeasure would be the deployment of anti-satellite missiles. Can of worms anyone?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 41):
However, the F-22's own AEW&C capabilities will come into play, as well.

And the moment those whizz bang "stealth" F-22s switch that big radar on they will be broadcasting their presence to just about everyone  Smile

There is no real optimal solution, every one has its own strengths and weaknesses. Whatever the case it's pretty clear that AEW&C has become an integral part of the US/NATO air war, so it wouldn't be a great leap of logic to guess that our friends in the East have given great consideration to the possibility of targetting our AEW&C platforms! I doubt this fact is lost on our planners, and they have probably given just as much thought to ways to protect those absolutely vital platforms.

Interesting stuff  Smile
 
highlander0
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:20 pm

Keejse- nice videos, however, I can't speak Chinese or Russian, so is there a transcript available? I've picked up on some posts * Wink* that you don't think the Typhoon is a modern, capable aircraft.


I believe that the Eurofighter is an incredible a/c and that it would have no problems filling whatever requirements are needed.

THEORETICALLY- who do you believe would close the deal though, were they successful??


Seems relevant this time round, interesting to see.

 
keesje
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 43):
Seems relevant this time round, interesting to see.

I think we are not talking carrierborn aircraft here.

Range, multirole capabilities stea+t, thrustvectoring are benchmarks for the future.

IMO europe loves the Typhoon because they have no alternative. They have to.

If you were PM of Japan knowing whats been build up up on the other side of the sea would you order Typhoons & think all is settled for the the next 20 yrs?

I think the Japanese don´t think so. http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/...asia/AS-GEN-Japan-Fighter-Jets.php
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
highlander0
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:51 pm

Sooo, never mind the J-10A or Raptor diagrams on there?


Keesje, it appears you don't believe that the Eurofighter is a capable aircraft, or one which could evolve into an even more potent aircraft. Your thread running for more then 3/4 years is 'proof'.

Nothing is ever 'settled', I bet after the "Fall of Communism" that Western planners thought Russian provocation was out of the question [:
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Britjap (Reply 14):
From everything Ive read about that in the past year it seems that it is nothing more than a model. Not even a test frame of any sort, purely just a model.

Thats what I am hoping anyway!!



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 16):
LOL, with such big Candards it will have a RCS of a 747 but doesn't matter

Looks like a Su-35 front and a YF-23 Rear. But I agree with the candards it will have a large rcs cross section thats probably why there are none on the F-22.

Although I doubt they will need them looks like the chinese are trying to kill all of us with lead poisoning anyway they can probably save their money.

[Edited 2007-10-25 15:49:25]
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting Bobski (Reply 19):
Typhoon is more agile than any potential adversary, that is a fact. It has flown against and beaten all of its competition in exercises and in fly-offs. The only exception being the Raptor, although there are reports of Typhoon flying against and beating the Raptor in the US recently.

WOW the press will print anything to help EADS sell an aircraft. Just to note this has been discussed before and several people working with the F-22 have stated time and time again in here that neither aircraft has ever faced each other in a dog fight in training or IRL I doubt either EADS or Lockheed martin this early in both aircraft stages are willing to find out which one is better, too many sales would be lost.
 
keesje
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 45):
Sooo, never mind the J-10A or Raptor diagrams on there?

The Typhoon might be a very nice aircraft for folks that have seen it at airshows making a lot of noise / sharp turns etc. Me too thought so, when I first saw a proto EAP in Paris 19.. 87?

Fact remains the Typhoon isn´t stealth, hasn´t thrust vectoring, has a less then impressive range, only supercruise without tanks & weapons, has radar technology that was great 10 yrs ago, Meteor (hopefully) in 2012? and will have excellent air to ground capability in an expensive, yet to be certified / bought modification program nobody has committed to.

Now it doesn´t have to have all these capabilities, but none IMO makes it a less then ideal platform to face the stealth fighters that will have those capabilities for the next 20 yrs in theatres like Asia. That is why Singapore didn´t take the Typhoon. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ighter-from-critical-contract-0401

Now it may sound a little harsh, but it is a reality we face. The European formula of develloping new combat aircraft (everyone involved wants it to do everything & national industry must all have their stake) lasting for many years with commintment building up so strong nobody can get out anymore, isn´t ideal facing opponents that are determined, undemoncratic and have a lot of budget.

It would be willingly blind not to see that I´m not the only one that thinks the money could have been spend in better ways. (The A380 is a cheapy compared)

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=391112005
http://www.military-aerospace-technology.com/article.cfm?DocID=304


24.06.03
FACTUAL & ARTS TV
Eurofighter: Weapon of Mass Construction
Sunday 6 July 2003, 10.00pm, BBC FOUR

There have been many twists and turns in the journey of the controversial Eurofighter Typhoon. Conceived at the height of the Cold War by the UK, Germany, Italy and France to combat the superiority of the Soviet Union's air force, the aircraft's in-service delivery date of 30 June is ten years late and – at a cost of more than £50 billion – it's become the most expensive European defence project ever.

The work of an unprecedented number of nations, the aircraft's troubled genesis has seen out the Cold War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, Bosnia, 9/11 and two Gulf wars.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...03/06_june/24/ou_eurofighter.shtml

[Edited 2007-10-25 16:33:47]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
art
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RE: Japan May Buy Eurofighter, Defence Minister Says

Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 48):
Fact remains the Typhoon... only supercruise without tanks & weapons,

Is that so? Source? IIRC Typhoon supercruises with 6 missiles. My source is currently unavailable: www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

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