Devilfish
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Netz For Romania?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:57 pm

I was waiting for someone to start a thread on this, but since nobody did, decided to come up to the plate myself.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...w-fighters-come-from-israel-01499/

Quote:
"Now reports in the Israeli press indicated that Romania and may go another route, and spend $150 million to purchase 'dozens' of used F-16A Netz (Hebrew for 'Falcon') aircraft from Israel. Israeli contractor Elbit Systems would be the lead contractor, overseeing their refurbishment and upgrade with newer Israeli electronics.

This could be a good deal for both parties. The Romanians would receive a version of the most widely-adopted fighter in NATO, with electronics that would be interoperable with NATO standards. The reports note that the Israeli Air force ('Cheyl Ha'Avir') plans to phase out at least some of its 75 older F-16A/B planes as it introduces 102 new F-16I Soufa (Storm) jets, which incorporate all of the F-16 Block 52 advancements plus Israeli electronics and weapons. Reports claim that a special committee has been set up to coordinate the various stages of what seems to be a complicated deal.

[.....]

Its possible choices also tend to narrow down to the lightweight fighter segment, in order to achieve even the 24 modern fighters desired for the kind of money the country will want to spend.

That leaves a small set of options:

* Used F-16 Falcons, from Israel or from other NATO countries.

* Mirage 2000s, possibly used, from France.

* Leased JAS-39 Gripens from Sweden. May be more expensive than used aircraft, but provides a 4th-generation fighter and comes with industrial offsets.

* Russian aircraft with upgraded Western avionics et. al., much as Israel did for their Lancers. The MiG-29 is the only modern Russian fighter in Romania's likely cost profile. Downsides include minimized NATO interoperability, and extra costs per plane due to the required refit.

The one potential downside to the F-16 is the necessity of US approval for technology transfer or sale. After all, these Romanian deal rumours come hot on the heels of the forced freeze of Venezuela's $100 million F-16A upgrade contract with Israel, under a new system in which the USA exercises far more say than ever before regarding Israeli weapons deals.

[.....]

In Romania's case, however, Israel is transferring the weapons themselves, not just maintaining them with Israeli technology. Formal American approval has always been required for any transfer of US equipment to third countries.

Fortunately, sales to a new NATO member like Romania aren't likely to attract any vetos from the USA.

Indeed, rumor has it that the potential deal with Romania was given a provisional green light by the American government and by Lockheed Martin. If matters have reached that point, the F-16 deal with the Israeli government is at a more advanced stage than the Romanians are letting on."


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Admittedly, those early, former ANG A/Bs are tired old birds and the $150M price reflects it - but could this be the breakthrough needed for IAI's Falcon ACE upgrade package to gain its first sale?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
A342
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:51 pm

I'm confused - upgraded Israeli F-16s were the first aircraft to be considered. Then the focus shifted away from them, towards the Gripen, new F-16s, the Eurofighter and the Rafale. From what the Romanian press wrote on this matter, they want 48 aircraft, not 24, and a budget of $3.5bn has been allocated for the programme (but that also includes the money for new SAMs).
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
A342
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:16 pm

Gotta correct my self, depending on the source, the value of the contract could be between 3.5 and 4.4 billion EUROS...

At the moment, the Eurofighter and the Gripen seem to be the frontrunners, but we shall see who is going to come out on top.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
N74JW
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:36 pm

My money is on the Gripen. If I had to forecast...

There are sufficient in-roads into this market by Saab, and all the FAR has to do is visit a neighbor, or two...
rm -r *
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
The one potential downside to the F-16 is the necessity of US approval for technology transfer or sale. After all, these Romanian deal rumours come hot on the heels of the forced freeze of Venezuela's $100 million F-16A upgrade contract with Israel, under a new system in which the USA exercises far more say than ever before regarding Israeli weapons deals.

I dont know much about this but I assumed it was already a done deal I know the US had already approved the sale and upgrade of these aircraft several years ago from Isreal to Romania so the US denying it isnt going to happen. Well Unless Romania decides to vote Hugo Chavez in as president anyway..lol. (Just trying to be funny) I doubt that would happen. Romania has back both US lead wars and weather you like President Bush or not one thing he has been is very loyal to to the allies that have helped up with military equipment. Anyway I feel this would be their best option at least until they have the money and the F-35 is availible, the only other option I could see them going for is the F-18 E/F but that would probably be overkill for a small country like Romania. The Israeli used F-16 have relativley low mileage on them and would be a perfect fit for a country like romania that and I believe Israel upgraded their MIG-21 some years back so they are familiar with each other.
 
A342
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:22 pm

I really hope they go for the Rafale.

Quoting N74jw (Reply 3):
My money is on the Gripen. If I had to forecast...

Preferably the Gripen NG...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
Admittedly, those early, former ANG A/Bs are tired old birds and the $150M price reflects it - but could this be the breakthrough needed for IAI's Falcon ACE upgrade package to gain its first sale?

I don't believe Israel got former ANG birds. I thought all of their F-16s were purchased new. Now, if we're talking about pulling some of the old US ANG birds from the bone yard and updating them, I'd have to agree they're already tired and are best left sitting where they are.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
N74JW
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:15 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6):
I'd have to agree they're already tired and are best left sitting where they are.

I'll take one... It will make a great gate guard for my driveway.
rm -r *
 
Devilfish
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6):

I don't believe Israel got former ANG birds. I thought all of their F-16s were purchased new.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article7.html

Introduction

"The Israel Defense Force/Air Force ordered a total of 362 F-16s, from early F-16A/Bs to the latest F-16I. Fifty of these aircraft were surplus USAF aircraft, given to Israel by the US as payment for restraint during the 1991 Gulf War despite Scud attacks. All Israeli F-16s are fitted with custom Israeli electronics."

Peace Marble IV

"As payment for restraint during the 1991 Gulf War, Israel was provided with 50 surplus USAF F-16A/B's, all Block 10 aircraft. Contrary to earlier deliveries, these aircraft retained their USAF air superiority gray color scheme at that time. The aircraft are called Netz II locally. The first of these (ex- 'DO' 907th FG and 'MI' 127th FW aircraft) were delivered on August 1st, 1994 under the Peace Marble IV program. The delivery was completed in late 1994.

About half of these aircraft were ex-ANG/AFRes aircraft, with the remainder being brought out of storage at Davis-Monthan AFB. The largest batch delivered to Israel were 12 F-16A/B's from the 157th Fighter Interceptor Squadron from the South Carolina ANG. These F-16A/B's will be used primarily for training, but will undergo a number of modifications prior to entering IDFAF service."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Sun Oct 28, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
option I could see them going for is the F-18 E/F but that would probably be overkill for a small country like Romania.

Actually Romania isn't that small, as you can see on this map.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
believe Israel upgraded their MIG-21 some years back so they are familiar with each other.

Romanian Aerostar is an important MiG upgrader itself.

I'd put my money on Gripen BTW. Not sure what Romania's ambitions in NATO are, but I can image they have other prioritues over having a large expiditionary force.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Tue May 20, 2008 1:35 am

Update:

As it turns out, the U.S. is offering Romania 24 new Block 50 or 52 aircraft, and another 24 used Block 25 F-16C/Ds for a total cost of US$ 4.5 billion.....Does Romania have that much money to spare?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ian-air-force-for-4.5-billion.html

Quote:
"A combination of new and used Lockheed Martin F-16s equipped with targeting pods and helmet-mounted mission controls highlight new details of the US government's estimated $4.5 billion bid to supply the Romanian Air Force with 48 multi-role fighters.

[.....]

The US will offer 24 new F-16C/Ds Block 50 or 52s, depending on Romania's engine choice, and 24 used F-16C/D Block 25s powered by Pratt & Whitney engines."



http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...aeronautics/products/f16/f16_4.jpg

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/produc.../f16/versions/f-16-block50-52.html

Video here.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f16/index.html

[Edited 2008-05-19 18:41:09]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Sat May 24, 2008 4:55 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
As it turns out, the U.S. is offering Romania 24 new Block 50 or 52 aircraft, and another 24 used Block 25 F-16C/Ds for a total cost of US$ 4.5 billion.....Does Romania have that much money to spare?

As crappy as the US dollar is doing now, if they are going to purchase any new US military hardware now would be the time to do it, they would get more bang for the buck "so to speak anyway". Personally I think Romania has helped us out enough I would really like to see the US do the same thing for them militararly as far as assistance as they do for Israel, I think our technology would be more secure over there. That and the Romanian economy while not strong by western european standards is doing much better. But i have no vote in it just shouting out!!!!..lol
 
A342
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Sat May 24, 2008 7:52 pm



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 11):

Actually the Romanian economy is booming.

But if Romania buys F-16s, I'd prefer Block 60 aircraft.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Sun May 25, 2008 5:28 am



Quoting A342 (Reply 12):
Actually the Romanian economy is booming.

But if Romania buys F-16s, I'd prefer Block 60 aircraft.

Really thats a good thing then. I would prefer the block 60 also, but I am not sure Romania would need a advanced aircraft like that, the block 60 is on the same lines as the F-35 but without the stealth it may be a little too much aircraft for them. The block 52 is a good aircraft and will do them a good job.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:40 am

Update:

Another "near" decision.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-on-mig-21-lancer-replacement.html

Romania nears decision on MiG-21 Lancer replacement
By Luca Peruzzi

Quote:
"Romania could announce the winner of a tender for up to 48 new fighter aircraft within the next six months, say government defence representatives. However, the conclusion of its contest will depend on the near-term election of a new government and approval for a budget allocation that could yet reduce acquisition numbers."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
TGIF
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:46 am

Update:

Looks like the economic crises has taken it's toll ones again:

Quote:
BUCHAREST, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Romania is likely to shelve multibillion-euro plans to buy fighter planes to bring its air force up to NATO standards this year because of a lack of cash in its crisis-stricken budget, a senior coalition official said.

...

"Purchasing fighter jets this year is out of the question in such a difficult situation," Mircea Geoana, head of the coalition's Social Democrat party (PSD), told Reuters.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSLI36950320090219

First Croatia and now Romania. Do I dare to guess we'll see similar delays in other 'East European' countries also shopping for new fighters?
 
TGIF
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:39 am

It looks as Romania finally found the money to fund it new fighter purchase. 24 second hand F-16

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE62M2C720100323

Quote:
"Taking into account that Romania does not have the needed financial resources to buy new ... planes, the Council okayed a defence ministry proposal to acquire 24 F16 used planes," the council said in a statement.

It said the plan would be subject to parliament's approval.

Romania is a U.S. ally and some analysts had said the F16 was a likely choice.

It's been said that Romania will get the 24 F-16's for "free" from the US. Romania will however have to pay to get the Block 25 F-16 into flyable condition. IMO, this will be far from cheap... But I guess once again, strategic partnership is more important than the actual fighters.
 
sasd209
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:52 am

Quoting TGIF (Reply 16):
But I guess once again, strategic partnership is more important than the actual fighters

Do the Block 25 F-16's not meet the mission intended by the Romanian govt?
 
Burkhard
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:16 am

I think every flight worthy F16 meets the missions intended by Romania. They are surrounded by allies. and the conflicts in the regions ( Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan/Russia) don't touch them in any way. If it came to a conflict with Russia, it wouldn't matter either if the 24 F16s are Block 25 or Block 60 to be honest.
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:06 pm

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 17):
Do the Block 25 F-16's not meet the mission intended by the Romanian govt?

Likely they do,but the ordervalue estimated to be approx. 1.3 Billion $ (for uppgrading) devided by 24 makes it a ....54 Million per plane!! for a F-16 block 25 from the 80,s..l.....would't be my first choice. Perhaps they have a good salesorganization at LM  
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
TGIF
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:16 pm

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 17):
Do the Block 25 F-16's not meet the mission intended by the Romanian govt?

I believe I chose a poor wording. I meant to imply that money had little to do with it and strategic partnership was a larger factor.
Second hand Gripens or Mirages could have been equally cheap with the former definitely cheaper to operate than the F-16's. The F-16's will most certainly fulfill every role.
 
sasd209
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:24 pm

OK, I perhaps misunderstood the intent there.  

While the F-16 is a good aeroplane, I'd like to see what the support costs for each entry would be like.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:21 am

Quoting TGIF (Reply 20):
Second hand Gripens or Mirages could have been equally cheap with the former definitely cheaper to operate than the F-16's. The F-16's will most certainly fulfill every role.

As they say, "You gets what you pays for" --- which those at SAAB see as a reason for consternation.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-romania%27s-f_16-jets-choice.html

"Swedish Saab surprised at Romania's F-16 jets choice"


Though I find it incredible that Romania is setting its sights on the F-35.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-new-f_16s-as-lead_in-for-jsf.html

Quote:
"Given that Romania does not have the financial resources necessary for the acquisition of new multirole aircraft, CSAT has approved the Defence Ministry’s proposal to acquire 24 used F-16 aircraft.

[.....]

In this respect, the strategy set out the following steps:
- An initial stage involving the acquisition of 24 used F-16 Block 25 aircraft;
- An intermediate stage involving the acquisition of an additional 24, new-build F-16 aircraft of the Block 50-52 version;
--A final phase involving the service introduction of 24 F-35 JSF aircraft, which will replace the first batch of F-16 aircraft originally purchased."


IMHO, Super Vipers would be a more practical intermediate solution as they could go farther into the future in case the F-35s prove to be too ambitious.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/aeronautics/products/f16/f-16in-1.jpg
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...onautics/products/f16/f-16in-1.jpg
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Devilfish
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:21 am

And speaking of cheap, SAAB must have fired its best, parting shot.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ers-cut-price-jets-to-romania.html

"Sweden offers cut price jets to Romania"

Never say die.....         

[Edited 2010-04-16 03:31:23]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:15 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 22):
- An initial stage involving the acquisition of 24 used F-16 Block 25 aircraft;

This has been on the table for over three years now....and still no 25 years old F-16 on the tarmac,due to the lack of money,the F-35 feels ...i will probably not live to see it  
Quoting Devilfish (Reply 22):
Though I find it incredible that Romania is setting its sights on the F-35.....

Talk is cheap.....

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 22):
"Swedish Saab surprised at Romania's F-16 jets choice"

I am surprised that they are surprised....they should know this buisness by now.
  
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:10 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 18):
I think every flight worthy F16 meets the missions intended by Romania. They are surrounded by allies. and the conflicts in the regions ( Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan/Russia) don't touch them in any way. If it came to a conflict with Russia, it wouldn't matter either if the 24 F16s are Block 25 or Block 60 to be honest.

I wouldn't be too sure about a block 60 in the hands of a skilled pilot the block 60 is a very advanced light aircraft and would be a handfull for a russian fighter.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Tue May 18, 2010 4:52 am

Latest excerpts from DID.....

Quote:
"Price matching from Gripen, Eurofighter, as Parliament considers its options. (May 14/10).....

May 11/10: The Eurofighter consortium and member firm Alenia Aeronautica chime in with an offer of their own: 24 used Italian Tranche 1 Eurofighters, plus up to 5,000 skilled jobs created by 100% industrial offsets and local technology transfer. The price, including logistics support and training, would be EUR 1 billion (about $1.3 billion), matching the price tag for used F-16s. Deliveries would take place between 2011-2012.

Italian Tranche 1 Eurofighters differ sharply from the other competitors in one crucial respect. Barring additional upgrades and equipment, they lack air to ground capabilities. In contrast, both the F-16 and the JAS-39 Gripen are full multirole fighters, able to target invading land forces, support Romanian troops on the ground, or conduct precision strikes against key enemy targets.

That same day, the Romanian Senate’s Defense Commission calls in representatives of rivals Eurofighter and Sweden’s Saab, stating that it wished to hear from Lockheed’s competitors. The decision to buy any fighter requires Parliamentary approval. Defense News.

April 15/10: Agence France Presse quotes Jerry Lindbergh, a Swedish government official in charge of defense exports, who says that Sweden could provide 24 new “fully NATO interoperable Gripen C/D fighters, including training, support, logistics and 100 percent offset for the amount of one billion euros ($1.3 billion),” paid off over 15 years with low interest rates."


So, if money is really a problem, Romania could also revisit an earlier option - though of a more recent vintage and from a totally different source. They may ask if they could avail of the UAE's Mirage 2000v9s in a buy-back deal the latter is trying to work out with the French.....

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Devilfish
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RE: Netz For Romania?

Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:30 am

Update:

It appears Romania's decision last March is headed nowhere for the time being.....

http://www.haaba.com/news/2010/06/11...ford-buying-f-16-jets-now-minister

Quote:
"Crisis-hit Romania cannot afford to purchase second-hand F-16 combat aircraft this year, Finance Minister Sebastian Vladescu said.

'There is no money for the F-16s, I can't see where we could get one percent of GDP (gross domestic product) in order to buy military equipment,' Vladescu told Money Channel TV station.

'Such an expense is downright impossible at this moment,' he added."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield

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