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fxramper
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Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:41 am

Seems the Air Force has some safety issues with this a/c.

Over 700 in their fleet.





article
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:44 am

Not the first time. A friend of mine once grounded the whole RAF fleet of Jet Provost trainers after he noticed that rivets attaching the lower skin to the wing spar were coming off (he is quite short and noticed it, where taller people would have walked past) on several planes in his flight.

Another Canadian ex-colleague once grounded all C-130s worldwide for special inspections and repairs after he noticed cracks in the upper fuselage near the tail plane on several of his unit's planes.

Jan
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N74JW
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:33 pm

The majority of the USAF's F-15A/C's are over twenty years old. Time to re-evaluate the fleet and retire the old-old birds.
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scbriml
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:39 pm

A cynic would suggest this move by the AF is designed to put pressure on Congress to approve additional F-22s. scratchchin 
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:03 pm

Hah, funny you mention that, people were talking about that at the squadron the other day.

Alot of these birds are 30 yrs+, especially some of our A models. They're flying past their original design lifespan and are doing it well, but they're tired. 6000 hours on a fighter is alot.

DeltaGuy
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ebj1248650
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
A cynic would suggest this move by the AF is designed to put pressure on Congress to approve additional F-22s.

You wouldn't have to be a cynic to think about the impact the F-15 grounding is having or what the condition of the fleet might be found to be. It seems odd to me, though, that the newer F-15E is also affected, unless the grounding is a result of something other than structural issues.

Might this grounding give rise to further F-22 purchases? Probably too soon to tell, but the possibility is stronger than it was.
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KPDX
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 5):
Alot of these birds are 30 yrs+, especially some of our A models. They're flying past their original design lifespan and are doing it well, but they're tired. 6000 hours on a fighter is alot.

Yep the Oregon Air National Guard still has all the old A models, their burners malfunction a lot in different ways sometimes. Big grin



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N74JW
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6):
Might this grounding give rise to further F-22 purchases?

I doubt it. I think it may change the priority to which units will receive the F-22 and when. Hopefully this will speed u pthe transfer of C models to the ANG.
rm -r *
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:48 pm

I find it funny that the media is just now getting the story out. The Air Force released an article on it's website the morning after the grounding.

http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123074547

Quoting N74jw (Reply 3):
Time to re-evaluate the fleet and retire the old-old birds.

Old- Old birds? Not all of them are old-old. The grounding encompassed all F-15 models.
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/070610-F-0205S-333.jpg
Tail code with 97. 97 being the year it was ordered, meaning delivery was sometime less than 10 years ago.

Quoting KPDX (Reply 7):
burners

It wasn't an A model that went down it was a C. The crash that prompted this was due to a structural failure, not the afterburners. If the burners did malfunction it generally isn't a bid deal, out side of them being stuck on. They are at the back of the exhaust section out side of the "engine proper" if you will.




I said in the other thread. This is SOP!! The Navy and Marine Corp do the same thing when something like this happens. When a problem is found with an aircraft that has not been seen before the entire fleet is grounded until every aircraft can be checked for the same problem. For some reason it must have been a slow news day and the media decided print this story making everybody crap their pants.
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ebj1248650
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:52 pm

Quoting N74jw (Reply 8):
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 6):
Might this grounding give rise to further F-22 purchases?

I doubt it. I think it may change the priority to which units will receive the F-22 and when. Hopefully this will speed u pthe transfer of C models to the ANG.

Possibly. Of course, the big questions are: What was the specific system or structural feature of the F-15 that caused the grounding? How hard and how expensive will it be to fix? What is the impact on the Eagle's status within the Air Force and ANG; i.e. how long will the airplane remain in service? Will additional F-22 orders provide a long term solution to a shortfall in fighters if the F-15s have to be retired early? Will the AF consider modifying the F-35s configuration to make it more of a suitable air-to-air fighter to avoid having to buy the more costly F-22?

And the final question: Is the Eagle grounding being blown all out of proportion?  Smile
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michlis
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:56 pm

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 9):
Tail code with 97. 97 being the year it was ordered, meaning delivery was sometime less than 10 years ago.

This is an E model...they won't be going away anytime soon; they replace the F-111.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:11 pm

Quoting Michlis (Reply 11):
This is an E model...they won't be going away anytime soon; they replace the F-111.

Exactly my point my friend  thumbsup  Trust me I am well aware of the difference between and E and a C  Wink

N74jw was saying that we need to retire the old-old birds. I was pointing out that the grounding included F-15Es and they are not old nor are the being retired.
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KevinSmith
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:25 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 10):
And the final question: Is the Eagle grounding being blown all out of proportion?

YES!! Thank You EBJ!!!!
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michlis
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 12):
I was pointing out that the grounding included F-15Es and they are not old nor are the being retired.

I misunderstood...my apologies.  Smile
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting Michlis (Reply 14):
I misunderstood...my apologies.

No worries.
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N74JW
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:53 pm

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 9):
Not all of them are old-old.

Yeah, thanks... I meant the 'old' A/C models, that are 20+ in years. I did not mention the E models, but I do know they were affected by the ground.
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KevinSmith
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting N74jw (Reply 16):

Yeah, thanks... I meant the 'old' A/C models, that are 20+ in years. I did not mention the E models, but I do know they were affected by the ground.

My bad dude.  Smile
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Venus6971
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:15 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 7):
Yep the Oregon Air National Guard still has all the old A models, their burners malfunction a lot in different ways sometimes.

Alot of thge A models still flying are strictly ANG birds flying with some A model frankenjets at Edwards, the A models are in better shape than most C models, with the Iraqi 1991 to 2004 no fly zones it took there toll on the c models plus the dreaded flying hour program that active duty wings had to fly so their wing kings could get promoted. Maybe we see some new builds with GE110's come out of St Louis for the USAF.
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Devilfish
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:34 pm

Latest news indicate that Israeli and Japanese Eagles will also be grounded.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...an-join-us-in-grounding-f-15s.html
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F27Friendship
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 4):
A cynic would suggest this move by the AF is designed to put pressure on Congress to approve additional F-22s.

I don't believe for an instant the USAF would jeopardize their planes, and more important their people, to play games with congress.

I don;'t believe you believe it either BTW  Wink
 
michlis
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:21 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 18):
Maybe we see some new builds with GE110's come out of St Louis for the USAF.

New Eagles for the USAF would be awesome, but there is the matter of money. One of their procurements would have to suffer and you can bet it won't be the F-22.  

[Edited 2007-11-06 11:23:15]

[Edited 2007-11-06 11:24:42]
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GDB
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:25 pm

It is far from uncommon for a type in military to have temporary groundings, as has been alluded to, probably easier to find a type that has not, rather than list those that have.
I really don't see any 'lobbying for more F-22's' in this, for one, there is no chance of anything like a one to one replacement of Eagles by F-22's, those operating/maintaning the fleet, I suspect are too busy with the issues around the grounding to worry about any politics.

But the USAF has a dilemma, if F-22's will not replace the majority of the F-15's, even only F-15A/C's, do you reduce force levels, accepting the far greater potency of the F-22, or buy new Eagles?
But to buy new F-15's, means those $ are not spent on F-22's, F-35 of course is needed for eventual USAF F-16 replacement.

The first option, is much more likely IMHO.
 
KPDX
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 9):
It wasn't an A model that went down it was a C. The crash that prompted this was due to a structural failure, not the afterburners. If the burners did malfunction it generally isn't a bid deal, out side of them being stuck on. They are at the back of the exhaust section out side of the "engine proper" if you will.

Oh I know, I wasnt saying the burners had anything to do with the crash, just responding to

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 5):
Alot of these birds are 30 yrs+, especially some of our A models. They're flying past their original design lifespan and are doing it well, but they're tired. 6000 hours on a fighter is alot.

By saying, yea, things like the burners malfunction a lot.

 Wink

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scottieprecord
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 9):
I find it funny that the media is just now getting the story out. The Air Force released an article on it's website the morning after the grounding.

Hmm... F-15s were grounded on the 3rd, but I saw one flying that afternoon at the Randolph Airshow. Either way, guess that explains why it wasn't flying Sunday! At least I know why I missed the Eagle now. lol

-Mike
 
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:57 am

I saw a beautiful F-4 arrive tonight into DM ... Flew in over Tucson right near sunset. Have they replaced the 15's with the old standby ?!  Smile
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fxramper
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:29 am

I use this pic on my notebook background.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/geography/geography_images/Kuwait_oil_wells_USAF_F-16s_operation_Desert_Storm.jpg

Hope the 15 is around for another decade.
 
checksixx
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 19):
I don't believe for an instant the USAF would jeopardize their planes, and more important their people, to play games with congress.

I don;'t believe you believe it either BTW

They are talking about the grounding, not the crash! Are you serious??!?!
 
checksixx
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:16 pm

Quoting N74jw (Reply 7):
I doubt it. I think it may change the priority to which units will receive the F-22 and when. Hopefully this will speed u pthe transfer of C models to the ANG.

No change will be made on what units receive the F-22.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting Michlis (Reply 20):
Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 18):
Maybe we see some new builds with GE110's come out of St Louis for the USAF.

New Eagles for the USAF would be awesome, but there is the matter of money. One of their procurements would have to suffer and you can bet it won't be the F-22.

Now that this is happening while they're getting another twenty Raptors, the USAF may be wondering if they should have taken up the F-15E+ Super Eagles when those were being offered by Boeing.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
michlis
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
Now that this is happening while they're getting another twenty Raptors, the USAF may be wondering if they should have taken up the F-15E+ Super Eagles when those were being offered by Boeing.

Good money says that Boeing may thinking along the same lines.   Although, they might have to wait now that Congress has given a very big Christmas gift to the military.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...ropriations%20Deal&channel=defense

[Edited 2007-11-08 09:39:08]
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:47 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 21):
It is far from uncommon for a type in military to have temporary groundings, as has been alluded to, probably easier to find a type that has not, rather than list those that have.
I really don't see any 'lobbying for more F-22's' in this, for one, there is no chance of anything like a one to one replacement of Eagles by F-22's, those operating/maintaning the fleet, I suspect are too busy with the issues around the grounding to worry about any politics.

But the USAF has a dilemma, if F-22's will not replace the majority of the F-15's, even only F-15A/C's, do you reduce force levels, accepting the far greater potency of the F-22, or buy new Eagles?
But to buy new F-15's, means those $ are not spent on F-22's, F-35 of course is needed for eventual USAF F-16 replacement.

No, the current grounding has nothing to with trying to get more Raptors. However, I remain convinced that the USAF will eventually get the 400 F-22s they want. The old Soviet threat has been replaced by the new one, the proliferation of 4th generation+ fighter aircraft to anyone with the cash. The powers that be are well aware of this as well as the fact that neither designing a new frame or reopening the Raptor line once it's closed are cheap propositions.
I do think the F-35 is indeed intended to take up some of the slack left by the Raptor. What often seems lost is the fact that LM says the Lightning will be "at least as effective as the F-16" in the AA role. The Viper is pretty effective in the AA role.  Wink
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F27Friendship
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Fri Nov 09, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 26):
They are talking about the grounding, not the crash! Are you serious??!?!

of course I'm serious when saying that the USAF does not crash it's planes on purpose
 
wingnut135
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 11):
I was pointing out that the grounding included F-15Es and they are not old nor are the being retired.

We haven't flown all week here. But ours at Shady J are 86 thru 90 models. We've got one of the converted D models that spent a lot of time at Edwards from what I hear. All have over 4000 hours on them, with more than a few over 5000. We spend a lot of time fixing the same stuff over again because of their age. Wiring issues are a major pain in the @$$ at the moment. Seems like every week it's something new.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 25):
I use this pic on my notebook background.

Shady J leading the way! Both Es are from the 336th Fighter Squadron.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 25):
Hope the 15 is around for another decade.

It will be, and then some.

Wingnut
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KevinSmith
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 32):
But ours at Shady J are 86 thru 90 models

I take it then those aren't big motor birds are they?

[Edited 2007-11-10 20:13:01]
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wingnut135
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 33):
I take it then those aren't big motor birds are they?

If you mean F100-PW-220, then yes, we have the weaker motor. (I'm not sure if it's the -200 or -220, not an engine guy.) But I do know that all other E model bases have the -229 motors (Nellis, Mountain Home, Kadena, Lakenheath).

Wingnut
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Venus6971
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 34):
If you mean F100-PW-220, then yes, we have the weaker motor. (I'm not sure if it's the -200 or -220, not an engine guy.) But I do know that all other E model bases have the -229 motors (Nellis, Mountain Home, Kadena, Lakenheath).

The F-16 Community has 3 types of engines, 220.229, and the GE 110. TYhe GE is the far superior engine mx wise but would like to hear from a pilot what is better in the air, the 229 or the 110. The F-14 did well with GE 110.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 34):
If you mean F100-PW-220, then yes, we have the weaker motor. (I'm not sure if it's the -200 or -220, not an engine guy.) But I do know that all other E model bases have the -229 motors (Nellis, Mountain Home, Kadena, Lakenheath).

It's -220. The -100 is junk, the -220 is nice, but the -229's are a work of art. PW took some notes from GE when they designed the -229, it's alot more mx friendly.

DeltaGuy <--former engine troop
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L-188
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 11):
I was pointing out that the grounding included F-15Es and they are not old nor are the being retired.

I am sure that the grounding is a case of caution. First you ground the lot, and then as you learn more details, reduce the number grounded as you rule out factorys in the crash, such serial numbers, or planes under a particular number of flight hours, or who lack an affected system.

Expect to see a progressive release of flight restrictions over the next few weeks.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 24):
I saw a beautiful F-4 arrive tonight into DM ... Flew in over Tucson right near sunset. Have hey replaced the 15's with the old standby ?!

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KevinSmith
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 37):

I am sure that the grounding is a case of caution. First you ground the lot, and then as you learn more details, reduce the number grounded as you rule out factorys in the crash, such serial numbers, or planes under a particular number of flight hours, or who lack an affected system.

Way ahead of you.  Wink

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 8):


I said in the other thread. This is SOP!! The Navy and Marine Corp do the same thing when something like this happens. When a problem is found with an aircraft that has not been seen before the entire fleet is grounded until every aircraft can be checked for the same problem. For some reason it must have been a slow news day and the media decided print this story making everybody crap their pants.
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L-188
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 38):
Way ahead of you.

If you repeat it enough the kids might remember it.
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michlis
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:04 pm

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:36 pm

While Boeing remains optimistic and sees the grounding as an opportunity to offer new-build Eagles.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...der-for-48-more-f-15-fighters.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...leave-eagles-bright-prospects.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 39):
If you repeat it enough the kids might remember it.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
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wingnut135
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:06 am

Ok, so I was here at the house this morning when I got a call that I needed to go in to start the inspections to un ground our planes. Although I can't talk about it here, it'll take about a two shifts to inspect each plane. Being electro/environmental I need to move some of my stuff out of the way so others can get to what they need. After each plane is done we can fly it; so needless to say I'm going to be busy the next couple of days. I'll let you know how it goes.

Wingnut
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ebj1248650
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:03 pm

Grounding is a result of structural failure. Now the thing to be determined is whether the airplane was overstressed at th

Quoting Wingnut135 (Reply 43):
Ok, so I was here at the house this morning when I got a call that I needed to go in to start the inspections to un ground our planes. Although I can't talk about it here, it'll take about a two shifts to inspect each plane. Being electro/environmental I need to move some of my stuff out of the way so others can get to what they need. After each plane is done we can fly it; so needless to say I'm going to be busy the next couple of days. I'll let you know how it goes.

Wingnut

So it's going to take about 16-24 hours to inspect each plane. Though you don't say it, it almost sounds like the crash may have been a unique situation but all of the airplanes are being inspected ... "just in case ..." Comment(s), please.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:03 pm

if it's design related, you want to know if any other planes are showing indications it might happen to them
 
wingnut135
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:03 am

From my understanding, even though the crash investigation isn't complete, the engineers saw something that made them do a fleet wide inspection. From what I have read, the E model inspection is different than the A/C and B/D inspection. Although I could be completely wrong about that. Anyway, the inspections are going better than we expected time wise and we should have our planes done by the weekend. The most time consuming part is waiting on one of the shops to complete their part of the inspection.

I'll know more when I go in this morning but as of yesterday we were planning to start flying again today, so well see.

Wingnut
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Devilfish
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:02 pm

"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
wingnut135
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RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:38 am

We got five in the air today after completing the TCTO inspection. We should have more available for tomorrow, and so on. So far we haven't found anything that wouldn't be found in a phase inspection and can't be fixed right away.

We're looking pretty good and hope to have all our planes healthy by Thanksgiving. I'll let you know if anything comes up.

Wingnut
A good friend will get you out of jail. A real friend will be there with you saying, "Damn that was fun!"
 
Devilfish
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Air Force Grounds Entire F-15 Fleet.

Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:11 pm

There are reports of a new F-15A-D grounding order.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-catastrophic-design-weakness.html

Quote:
"Recent inspections found cracks in this same area on two other F-15Cs. A Boeing simulation analysis shows such cracks could lead to 'catastrophic failure', the air force says.

The second grounding comes a week after the full F-15 fleet returned to flight. The initial order to ground the fleet came immediately after the 2 November crash, in which the aircraft partially disintegrated in mid-air during a routine training flight above Missouri."


http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123077347

F-15 A-D models ordered to stand down for additional inspections

Quote:
"11/28/2007 - LANGLEY AIR FORCE BASE, Va (AFPN) -- For the second time this month, the commander of Air Combat Command has directed a fleet-wide inspection of all ACC F-15 A through D model aircraft.

The directive follows Nov. 27 findings stemming from the investigation of an F-15C mishap that resulted in the loss of that aircraft on Nov. 2. Based on those new findings, all F-15 A through D models will undergo a stand down that will require additional inspections and possible repair actions."



However, Defense-Aerospace issued a correction to the report.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...e38AAAEAABs4q@kAAAAU&modele=jdc_34

Correction: Boeing F-15s grounded story

What gives?  confused 
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