dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

What Will Replace The C-5?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:50 pm

The C-5 Is getting kind of old and will soon need a replacement, but what will the military use as a replacement? Unless they get Boeing to develop a large C-17 they will have to turn to a civilian transport, maybe they could get boeing to develop a special 748. The 748f already has a swinging nose like the C-5 and is close to the size, kind of, and since the 748 isn't selling great maybe boeing would offer that as a military cargo version. What do you guys think?
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:30 pm

The B-747-8F cannot fully replace the C-5. There is a lot of outsized cargo that will fit into the C-5, but not the B-747F.

The USAF still has the C-5M program going, although it may not be for long unless costs can be controlled. If the C-5M is successful, we will have C-5s for another 25+ years.
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
There is a lot of outsized cargo that will fit into the C-5

Into what kind of box size does "outsized cargo" actually translate?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
The USAF still has the C-5M program going, although it may not be for long unless costs can be controlled. If the C-5M is successful, we will have C-5s for another 25+ years.

Didn't someone in another thread talked about a potentially stretched C-17?
 
Acheron
Posts: 1847
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):
Into what kind of box size does "outsized cargo" actually translate?

I believe its something that doesn't fit into a regular freighter like C-130, 747, A310, etc.
 
BladeLWS
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):

Into what kind of box size does "outsized cargo" actually translate?

Helicopters, tanks, that kind of stuff. Also a 747 or A480 cannot land on an unprepared strip or offload stuff without equipment, which makes them unsuitable for combat operations areas.

The C-5 replacement will be a completely new aircraft, you can bet on that.
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 4):
The C-5 replacement will be a completely new aircraft, you can bet on that.

Has anyone heard what this plane will be like, or when design will start?
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 5):
Has anyone heard what this plane will be like, or when design will start?

Doesn't matter, the losers will bitch and nothing will get built.
 
ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 2):
Didn't someone in another thread talked about a potentially stretched C-17?

I've brought that subject up before because at one time there was consideration being given to a stretched C-17A. Obviously, that idea didn't go anywhere ... but that's not to say it's dead altogether. Whether the C-17B as it's sometimes called, could be a good one-for-one replacement for the C-5 is something the more informed a.netters could elaborate on. I'm not in that league by a long shot.  Smile
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
dw747400
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:24 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 4):
Also a 747 or A480 cannot land on an unprepared strip or offload stuff without equipment, which makes them unsuitable for combat operations areas.

Though in theory the C-5 can operate from an unprepared strip, its so rare in practice I doubt it would be a deal-breaker if an off-the-shelf design could manage the outsize payload, provide the needed payload/range combination, and use the existing infrastructure. With a clean sheet design, its possible the USAF will develop a more comprehensive wish-list, but we may see the C-5 replacement being a very large logistics transport intended for strategic work only, with the C-17 taking on the few missions the new plane can't handle that used to use a C-5.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 8):
With a clean sheet design, its possible the USAF will develop a more comprehensive wish-list, but we may see the C-5 replacement being a very large logistics transport intended for strategic work only, with the C-17 taking on the few missions the new plane can't handle that used to use a C-5.

Would it be practical for Boeing to think of upscaling the C-17 to produce the C-5 replacement? Would it also be practical for Lockheed-Martin to think of producing a much modernized C-5, rather than designing a new very large transport from scratch?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9):
Would it be practical for Boeing to think of upscaling the C-17 to produce the C-5 replacement? Would it also be practical for Lockheed-Martin to think of producing a much modernized C-5, rather than designing a new very large transport from scratch?

Both are possible, but neither is going to happen.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:12 pm

I get the feeling more and more that we may see the C-17's taking care of out-sized/unimproved strips and some 747F's taking care of the rest. Even a simple modification to the 747F could make a paratrooper platform, could it not?
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:22 pm

Remember that Lockheed restarted the C-5 production line again after the first-gen C-5As were getting long in the tooth, and at the request of USAF.
81 C-5As, then 50 more C-5Bs were built. If the USAF needs a C-5 replacement, it's far cheaper to re-start the line again for the C-5Ds.
No new transports are on the drawing boards right now...the budget is already stretched far too thin with other programs going on at the moment.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 4):
The C-5 replacement will be a completely new aircraft, you can bet on that.

Would it not be a better idea to build new C-5's?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Both are possible, but neither is going to happen.

Agreed, with all of the political BS and the deficit due to the war, every hour will be squeezed out of the existing C-5 airframes and the forthcoming C-5M.

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 12):
No new transports are on the drawing boards right now...the budget is already stretched far too thin with other programs going on at the moment.
Regards.

It is just cheaper to outsource. An-124???
rm -r *
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:41 pm

Quoting N74jw (Reply 13):
It is just cheaper to outsource. An-124???

Depend on how much you are willing to depend on those An-124 contractors.
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 14):
Depend on how much you are willing to depend on those An-124 contractors.

Money talks, unfortunately, and that is the ultimate thing that gets the Russians moving.
rm -r *
 
fridgmus
Posts: 1296
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:28 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:53 pm

Maybe we could get with the Antonov Bureau to crank up the line and produce new-build An-124's upgraded to our standards/systems?

Just a thought.
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 16):
Maybe we could get with the Antonov Bureau to crank up the line and produce new-build An-124's upgraded to our standards/systems?

Just a thought.

It is a great idea, and it makes sense. That is why the US Govt will never go for it. Could you imagine the USAF insignia on an An-124?
rm -r *
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:31 pm

Quoting N74jw (Reply 17):
It is a great idea, and it makes sense. That is why the US Govt will never go for it. Could you imagine the USAF insignia on an An-124?

Being a cold war vet I would never thought possible seeing aeroflot colors on a 767
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 18):
Being a cold war vet I would never thought possible seeing aeroflot colors on a 767

True, true. I started my service at the end of the cold war, but we were still trained that way.
rm -r *
 
ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:40 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 9):
Would it be practical for Boeing to think of upscaling the C-17 to produce the C-5 replacement? Would it also be practical for Lockheed-Martin to think of producing a much modernized C-5, rather than designing a new very large transport from scratch?

Both are possible, but neither is going to happen.

Why will neither happen? Is it easier to start with a blank sheet of paper than it is to modify or upscale an existing design?
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:08 pm

A BWB would be good... You could fit some really wide stuff in there....

Andrea Kent
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:25 pm

I personally like the box-wing idea... Only because it looks really cool though  Smile





In all reality, the way I think it should be handled is...

1) 747Fs for palletized/containerized freight that the KC-767s can't carry

2) C-17s (possibly including stretched or long range variants) for what the 747Fs can't carry or to places the 747Fs can't go (short/rough/no infrastructure/etc)

3) Leased An-124s or a smaller fleet of retained low time / modernized C-5s for the extremely rare occasion that you have cargo you can't transport with a C-17 or 747F... I doubt this really happens all that often. Our C-5 fleet could probably be stretched for decades to come if they are only used for flights where you NEED a C-5.
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:09 pm

I think it's a safe bet that C-5M will proceed and there will be no new large military transport for some time. Most of the frames have a lot of time left on them and it's just the cheapest way forward.
What's often overlooked when comparing the C-5 to the 747 is the C-5s ability to squat, drop a ramp and let the cargo drive itself off the ramp. That makes for rapid deployment that an aircraft as tall as a 747 can't accomplish. It may seem like a small thing but it's not.

[Edited 2007-11-12 15:17:19]
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 23):
What's often overlooked when comparing the C-5 to the 747 is the C-5s ability to squat, drop a ramp and let the cargo drive itself off the ramp. That makes for rapid deployment that an aircraft as tall as a 747 can't accomplish. It may seem like a small thing but it's not.

and the wings being on top probably help a lot with the kneeling, i forgot that is a limiting factor of the 747
 
tf39
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:43 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:09 am

I think some of the answer lies in how future (and now current) wars are fought. The C-5 was designed to bring immediate supplies to contain a conflict from spreading until military logistics could respond with massive replenishments, ultimately preventing the nukes from being used.

In the current state if you want to contain a battle why not just use submarines armed with GPS guided cruise missiles. Faster, more reliable, more accurate, and more devastating.

Pragmatism? If you want to haul outsize cargo, replace with an AN-124 unless us taxpayers want to get rolled by Lockheed again (at least consider the competition). For hauling passengers use CRAF.

Aesthetics? Nothing will ever replace a C-5.

As a side note, the greatest missions the C-5 accomplishes are the humanitarian ones.
 
seefivein
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:52 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:24 pm



Quoting TF39 (Reply 25):
If you want to haul outsize cargo, replace with an AN-124 unless us taxpayers want to get rolled by Lockheed again

This is the same of some Congress members have mentioned.

AT that time, economics played a bigger roll, the South east needed a boost - and they thought this would help.

Jus too many elected people sticking thier hands out for fair shares of money..
 
Galaxy5007
Posts: 637
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:06 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:26 pm



Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 12):
Remember that Lockheed restarted the C-5 production line again after the first-gen C-5As were getting long in the tooth, and at the request of USAF.
81 C-5As, then 50 more C-5Bs were built. If the USAF needs a C-5 replacement, it's far cheaper to re-start the line again for the C-5Ds.

After the C-5B production, the tooling was all destroyed. There is no way in restarting the line that was shut down two decades ago. Hence the whole C-5M program.

Personally, I see all the C-5Bs, and two C models plus the one A model get converted to an M model. Maybe 8 to 13 of the best A-models will stay around, but I personally see most of the A-models going to the boneyard in 10 years or so. By that time, we'll have 60 or so C-5Ms, and with their improved reliability, the other 50 wouldn't be needed anyhow. The continuation of C-17s would set this theory in concrete for sure.

Alot of the A-models have some pretty bad problems with box beams, cracking skin, etc. Although alot of the A models are up to B-model standards, they are still far different, just in metal compositions alone. I don't see them hanging around too much longer. Would not surprise me to see some of the A-s go within the next 2 years or so. Mothballing a handful would be helpful as well, that way when you have stupid pilots that stall planes (cough4059cough) and wreck them, you can go get another one from mothball, modernize it, and get it in the air in about a year and a half.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11022
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:43 pm

Perhaps the best option is a new build fleet of 55 B-747-8Fs, which would fall under the designation of C-45, as I think that is the next designation in line (some want to call the KC-767 the KC-44), then the real outsized stuff could be sealifted. The one or two emergency outsized cargo lifts can still be contracted out to An-124s.

Currently sealift RO-RO ships take the heaviest cargo, including M-1A1/A2 MBTs.
 
ex52tech
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:28 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:45 pm



Quoting DL767captain (Thread starter):
What do you guys think?

I think that the military should shut up and keep flying the C-5. They put 20,000 hrs on an airframe, and think its junk.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
r2rho
Posts: 2475
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:47 pm

The answer is... nothing will replace the C-5. At least not for a long time, I think.
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 23):
I think it's a safe bet that C-5M will proceed and there will be no new large military transport for some time. Most of the frames have a lot of time left on them and it's just the cheapest way forward.

The problem is it ain't cheap! While it is certainly proving effective aircraft performance-wise, it has incurred in big cost overruns and is currently being reconsidered. They'll probably keep it, even if it is turning out to be too expensive, just because there's no alternative. There's just nothing else out there in the C-5's category, well, except...

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 16):
Maybe we could get with the Antonov Bureau to crank up the line and produce new-build An-124's upgraded to our standards/systems?

Just a thought.

Didn't Germany look into this some time in the past? It has been rumored about I think. Antonov would love to get a decently sized order that would make that investment worthwhile, but I seriously doubt the USAF is gonna do that.

[Edited 2007-11-17 13:48:05]
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:11 pm



Quoting R2rho (Reply 30):
The problem is it ain't cheap! While it is certainly proving effective aircraft performance-wise, it has incurred in big cost overruns and is currently being reconsidered. They'll probably keep it, even if it is turning out to be too expensive, just because there's no alternative. There's just nothing else out there in the C-5's category, well, except...

You pretty much nailed it. Even with the cost overruns, it's a whole lot cheaper than developing a new frame. As for Antonovs, I think that's just dreaming. The USAF would never be beholden to the CIS Govt for anything, especially in light of our recent relations.
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: What Will Replace The C-5?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:19 pm



Quoting R2rho (Reply 30):
Didn't Germany look into this some time in the past? It has been rumored about I think.

Yes we did. But it did not became reality for the same reason as usual: Procurement strategy

  • 1st priority: German Industry
  • 2nd priority : EU Industry
  • 3rd priority Allied Industry
  • Last priority: Other foreign industry

In the end the 2+4 lease arrangement (2 An-124 fixed, 4 on short notice) that we have now as part of SALIS was the most favorable deal. It's is rock-bottom cheap (20Mil$ a year) and most important fullfills our needs. We also have a long-term charter contract for two Uzbek Il-76 IIRC.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos