747400sp
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Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:53 pm

I know the F 35 is supposed to replace the F/A-18 A,B,C and D model, but I reed somewhere that the F 35 will down line replace all F/A-18 model. Eventhough I fell the F 35 is a much better a/c than the F/A-18, I thought the USN would build a all together new a/c to replace the Rhinos. So is it true that the F 35 is the USN next flag ship fighter?
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:54 pm

What is your source regarding the replacement of the Rhinos? Not being critical here; just curious.

The F-35 is primarily an air-to-ground weapon with good secondary air-to-air capability. I'm not sure what the F/A-18Es are used for, so far as their primary mission, but it appears the F/A-18F was issued to squadrons that flew Tomcats and as such is being used as a fleet air defense fighter. I can't see the F-35 replacing the F/A-18Fs any time soon, if at all. Will the Navy want a new fleet air defense fighter in the near future? Doesn't seem so ... but requirements change as the political atmosphere changes, so you never really know.
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Oroka
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:47 pm

The F-35 is NOT replacing the Rhinos and Growlers.

Quote:
The requirement is for: USAF F-35A air-to-ground strike aircraft, replacing F-16 and A-10, complementing F-22 (1763); USMC F-35B – STOVL strike fighter to replace F/A-18B/C and AV-8B (480); UK RN F-35C – STOVL strike fighter to replace Sea Harriers (60); US Navy F-35C – first-day-of-war strike fighter to replace F/A-18B/C and A-6, complementing the F/A-18E/F (480 aircraft).

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/jsf/
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:50 am

Only the Navy is retaining the F-18, and a relatively small number at that. The Marines will be going all STOVL and to defray program costs for the now 320 F-35's the Marines will be taking vs the initial 480, the Air Force is looking at the STOVL to replace the A-10. TACAIR integration slashed the hell out of the Marine's projected orders.

Interesting read on the Navy crapping on the Marines:

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...2007/04/defense_stovl_jsf_070430m/

[Edited 2008-01-03 19:53:07]
 
redflyer
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:02 am



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
The Marines will be going all STOVL

That's really a shame. I wish they would keep a mix of superbugs and STOVLs.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
Oroka
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:08 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):
I wish they would keep a mix of superbugs and STOVLs.

Why have 2 operators of the same aircraft, on the same ships, flying simular missions, only diffrence is if it says 'Navy' or 'Marines' on the plane? USMC needs close air support which the F-35B will do well, the Navy can handle the fleet defence and bomb runs.
 
redflyer
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:16 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 5):
USMC needs close air support which the F-35B will do well, the Navy can handle the fleet defence and bomb runs.

But the USMC needs air superiority over the forward edge of the battle area on the ground, something that Marine pilots are trained to provide and which Marine Corps combat doctrine mandates. Grunts rarely engage an enemy unless there is close air support overhead, not just providing cover but also softening up targets in advance of ground movements. For effective close air support you need to have air superiority, which is to say your ground support jet-jocks cannot be hindered by enemy activity above them. The Navy could certainly provide the air superiority, but until the USMC changes its war doctrine, it will require some organic air superiority requirements. And the F-35, while very capable, may not be the best air superiority guarantor.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:31 am

No the F-35 is only replacing the older F-18 c/d the Superhornet will remain in service for a while its new and it carries alot of weapons. You will see in the future on carriers anyway a mixture of F-18 E's and F-18 E/F's and F-35's.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:22 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 5):
USMC needs close air support which the F-35B will do well, the Navy can handle the fleet defence and bomb runs.

Operating off USN CVN's the F-35B will be an inferior CAS aircraft to not only the USN's CVN specialized F-35C's but also their F/A-18E/F Super Hornets.

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
The Marines will be going all STOVL and to defray program costs for the now 320 F-35's the Marines will be taking vs the initial 480, the Air Force is looking at the STOVL to replace the A-10.

I believe the USAF briefly considered that but as of now they are no longer interested in the F-35B and the associated STOVL penalties for the price ratio.

The Corps must still be sucking their thumbs and looking at outdated financial data because they simply won't have the budget (especially so dependant upon if the party of the Jackass gets into office next January, or even a guy like John McCain who's flown CAS aircraft off Navy carriers who is very hawkish on defense waste) to buy an all F-35B fleet and will all but certainly have to integrate their air arm with the F/A-18F as well as the EA-18G; as of now they are just stubbornly (some might say ignorantly) dragging their feet like they did on the Osprey's 20+ year maturation process until they get what they want.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:29 am



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 7):
No the F-35 is only replacing the older F-18 c/d the Superhornet will remain in service for a while its new and it carries alot of weapons. You will see in the future on carriers anyway a mixture of F-18 E's and F-18 E/F's and F-35's.

Read the freakin quote:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
Only the Navy is retaining the F-18, and a relatively small number at that.

 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:23 am



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 9):
Read the freakin quote

Dont be an Ass!!!!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:53 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):
Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
The Marines will be going all STOVL

That's really a shame. I wish they would keep a mix of superbugs and STOVLs.

The Marines do not fly the F/A-18E/F, Superbug. The USMC only flies the F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornets along with the AV-8Bs.
 
redflyer
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:21 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
The Marines do not fly the F/A-18E/F, Superbug. The USMC only flies the F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornets along with the AV-8Bs.

 checkmark 

My (incorrect) assumption was that some VMA units are slated to operate the Superbug.
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AGC525
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:34 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
The USMC only flies the F/A-18A/B/C/D Hornets along with the AV-8Bs.

Don't forget the E-6B! And is the F-35B capable of that role, also?
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747400sp
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:23 am



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1):
What is your source regarding the replacement of the Rhinos? Not being critical here; just curious.

The F-35 is primarily an air-to-ground weapon with good secondary air-to-air capability. I'm not sure what the F/A-18Es are used for, so far as their primary mission, but it appears the F/A-18F was issued to squadrons that flew Tomcats and as such is being used as a fleet air defense fighter. I can't see the F-35 replacing the F/A-18Fs any time soon, if at all. Will the Navy want a new fleet air defense fighter in the near future? Doesn't seem so ... but requirements change as the political atmosphere changes, so you never really know.

Navy Times
 
MissedApproach
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:49 pm



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 3):
Interesting read on the Navy crapping on the Marines:

That's interesting. It's my understanding that the STOVL version's superior performance (thanks to the lift fan) was instrumental in the X-35 winning the competition over Boeing's machine in the fly-off.
The ability to operate from short or austere airfields is a big advantage in providing close air support. Not only do you have more time on station, your pilots are less fatigued from a long transit, & more of your fuel is burnt in the target area rather than wasted on the trip there & back.
The big question for me is, why all the money spent on low-observables? Is it really that big of a deal & how much does it add to the cost? You'll note that no other nation with an indigenous fighter program went that route & obviously felt the money was better spent elsewhere.
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AirRyan
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:46 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 12):
My (incorrect) assumption was that some VMA units are slated to operate the Superbug.

That would be too fiscally wise and just too much common sense; the Corps needs to operate 4 F/A-18F squadrons for their F/A-18D replacement so as to retain their FAC(A) capability as well as 4 squadrons of EA-18G's because they are quite simply not going to be able to afford and justify operating EA-6B's on their own once the USN retires theirs. And I just don't see where the Corps believes the BILLIONS necessary for developing an EAW/Q version of their STOVL F-35B (which is all but set in stone to be a single seat aircraft) is going to come from since they blew their wad on the V-22 and still have to allocate funds for their H-1 upgrades, CH-53K, and C-130J's in addition to all of their F-35B's (most expensive variant of the JSF mind you) that they intend on acquiring!
 
Oroka
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:55 am



Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 15):
The big question for me is, why all the money spent on low-observables? Is it really that big of a deal & how much does it add to the cost? You'll note that no other nation with an indigenous fighter program went that route & obviously felt the money was better spent elsewhere.

Outside of RAM, and optimized panel and joint lines, stealth shapes are just good aerodynamics with avoiding flat surfaces at certan angles. With the F/A-18E/F, a few tweeks to joints, and a reshaped engine intake, and a fat hornet now has 'stealth qualities'. So, really stealth is a byproduct, not really center design aspect (like the F-117).
 
rwessel
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RE: Is It True That F 35 Will Replace All F-18 Model?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:18 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 17):
Outside of RAM, and optimized panel and joint lines, stealth shapes are just good aerodynamics with avoiding flat surfaces at certan angles. With the F/A-18E/F, a few tweeks to joints, and a reshaped engine intake, and a fat hornet now has 'stealth qualities'. So, really stealth is a byproduct, not really center design aspect (like the F-117).

While hard numbers are basically impossible to come by (and wildly conflicting numbers that have been reported), the RCS of the Super Hornet has been reported as being an order of magnitude (IOW 10X) less than the prior generation. This is not that big a deal to achieve, and is within the realm of a moderate number of tweaks in many cases. Also remember that RCS varies greatly by direction, and it's quite possible that the RCS reductions for the Super Hornet are not very well balanced - so the RCS from directly behind, where the nozzles are visible, might still be huge, but if changes in the tail geometry blank that from many side angles, RCS may well be significantly reduced from those angles.

Anyway, a factor of 10 is nice, but is nothing to write home about. Remember that radar returns are an inverse *fourth* power function of distance, so a factor of ten reduction in RCS effectively reduces your detection distance by about 45%. So if you were able to detect an F/A-18A at 100nm, you'd see an F/A-18E at 55nm. That's certainly useful, but is far short of what's usually considered "stealth."

For a similar comparison, it's been reported that the B-1B had a similar order of magnitude reduction in RCS compared to the B-1A.

"Real" stealth aircraft have three or four orders of magnitude in RCS reduction, so while a conventional fighter might have an RCS in the 1-10sq-m range, a stealth aircraft will be in the .001-.01sq-m range.

Note that a 1000-fold reduction in RCS results in a nearly six-fold reduction in detection difference. So that same nominal 100nm radar would detect the “real” stealth aircraft at a range of about 17nm. At that range you can almost hit the target with a JDAM (well, under optimal conditions), and you’re in range for a JSOW at all but the lowest altitude drops.

In practical terms, the order of magnitude RCS reduction on the Super Hornet approximately halves the time the defenders have to react. On a proper stealth aircraft, you’re close to being able to drop before the defenders can see you at all.

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