ebj1248650
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180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:53 pm

Reading a newspaper article yesterday, it said the F-15E has been cleared to fly and many of the other F-15s have been also declared airworthy but up to 180 other F-15s may not ever fly again. No details as to whether these are F-15A and B models or if there're some C and D models. Does anyone have better information on this? The article didn't quote a source.
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art
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:01 pm



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Thread starter):
up to 180 other F-15s may not ever fly again.

-180 F-15's = + ? F-22's?
 
KevinSmith
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:46 pm

Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:12 pm

Of all this, I find this the most chilling statement.

"Additionally, approximately 40 percent of inspected aircraft have at least one longeron that does not meet blueprint specifications."

What were the USAF factory inspectors at MacD doing when these airplanes were built?
 
michlis
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:16 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
What were the USAF factory inspectors at MacD doing when these airplanes were built?

Possibly  yawn   zzz  or  coffee  or worse  covereyes  and  crossfingers  that nothing would happen.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:43 pm



Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 2):
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123081524

It's interesting the article says nothing about permanent grounding of any of the airplanes.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
AirRyan
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:14 am

I saw this segment on CNN while at the airport today, they interviewed a top ranking General who was basically saying there were a large number of F-15's that would no longe be returning to the air - confirmed. Either the USAF bys more F-22's or they get Boeing to cut them a deal on a lot of F/A-18E's to replace them because that is a huge gap to our national security!

Another good article on the topic:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...589.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
 
Stealthz
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:06 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 3):
"Additionally, approximately 40 percent of inspected aircraft have at least one longeron that does not meet blueprint specifications."

What were the USAF factory inspectors at MacD doing when these airplanes were built?

I would consider this a concern as well but does this mean they never met specifications?
Is it not possible that due to corrosion, fatigue even improper modification or repair they NO LONGER meet specifications?
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buss61
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:37 am

I also saw the CNN broadcast as well, and one of the concerns was that most of the F-15 models that were grounded were used primarily for homeland security and there would be no aircraft available in the event of hijacked airliners etc. why does that put such a strain on the F-16's which were designed as a multi role aircraft.
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redflyer
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:45 am

I'd be curious to know what the average hours are on the permanently grounded airframes; in particular the newest-built ones that are permanently grounded. In other words, are the permanently grounded birds high-time (relatively speaking) airframes? Have they exceeded their warranted service life per the block-build contract or are they still within the specified service life?
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L-188
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:10 am



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 6):
Either the USAF bys more F-22's or they get Boeing to cut them a deal on a lot of F/A-18E's to replace them because that is a huge gap to our national security!

The F/A=18E would be such a waste of money and resources for the air force, They should order more F-22's instead. That will lower the costs because there will be for Raptors to spread the sunk developments costs over.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 9):
I'd be curious to know what the average hours are on the permanently grounded airframes; in particular the newest-built ones that are permanently grounded

I would like to know if there is any rhyme or reason on the lot numbers those airplane where from.
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buss61
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:19 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 10)
The F/A=18E would be such a waste of money and resources for the air force, They should order more F-22's instead. That will lower the costs because there will be for Raptors to spread the sunk developments costs over.

Congress has already scaled back the number of F-22's that the air force wants due to its price tag.

there is an article about the F-15 structural problem at www.globalsecurity.org
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L-188
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:35 am



Quoting Buss61 (Reply 11):
Congress has already scaled back the number of F-22's that the air force wants due to its price tag.

That's why it is so expensive, congress keeps cutting the buy.

You have a sunk cost to cover to develop the aircraft and the more frames you buy the smaller the amount of that sunk cost has to be allocated to each produced airplane.

Using way oversimplied math.

Say you spend, 1,000,000,000 to develop that aiplane, if you spread the costs over 1000 airframes, the development costs will be 1 million a frame. If you only buy 100 airframes, you have to include 10 million dollars in the price of each frame to pay off the development costs.
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rwessel
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:35 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
The F/A=18E would be such a waste of money and resources for the air force, They should order more F-22's instead. That will lower the costs because there will be for Raptors to spread the sunk developments costs over.

Unless the increase in order size reduces the cost of the units already planned for purchase, it will not lower the costs one bit. It will spread the sunk costs out amongst more airframes, but that changes nothing.
 
buss61
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:54 am

Aside from costs, if the F-22 is as good as they say it is, then we want need mass quantites of the aircraft. After all that was the goal of the project any way. The entire military is going to a simplified approach that we can make one plane do the job of two or three (F-35,Superhornet)
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KevinSmith
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:09 am



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 6):
they get Boeing to cut them a deal on a lot of F/A-18E's to replace them because that is a huge gap to our national security!

The Rhionos aren't the AA thoroughbreds the 15Cs are. F-22 are the better choice.
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
redflyer
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:10 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
The F/A=18E would be such a waste of money and resources for the air force,

 checkmark 

As much as I love the Superbug, a USAF purchase is not going to be as simple as it may seem. As a first-time purchaser, the USAF is going to have to expend exorbitant money and resources putting in the infrastructure to support the birds. The fly-away cost is going to be a lot higher, IMO, than what the USN or USMC pays for the planes.

(Will they even accept the standard airframe or require modifications to convert them to boom refueling instead of the standard drogue?)
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seachaz
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:32 am

 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:27 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 6):
Either the USAF bys more F-22's or they get Boeing to cut them a deal on a lot of F/A-18E's to replace them because that is a huge gap to our national security!

That will be like replacing your Corvette with a Chevy Vega

Quoting Buss61 (Reply 11):
Congress has already scaled back the number of F-22's that the air force wants due to its price tag.

Now Congress will (finally) have to make a decision, won't they.
 
buss61
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Now Congress will (finally) have to make a decision, won't they.

I guess they will...
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michlis
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:47 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Now Congress will (finally) have to make a decision, won't they.

Don't hold your breath...especially if the extra money for the extra F-22s would mean depriving some of our illustrious representatives of their pork.  box 
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the outcome of a hundred battles.
 
Devilfish
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 6):
Either the USAF bys more F-22's or they get Boeing to cut them a deal on a lot of F/A-18E's to replace them because that is a huge gap to our national security!

The F/A=18E would be such a waste of money and resources for the air force,

Better yet, maybe the USAF should call Boeing on its past offer of F-15E+ Super Eagles - by having them guarantee the $59M price a pop! But then again, that will be counterproductive to the USAF's real goal.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
That will be like replacing your Corvette with a Chevy Vega

At least with the Super Eagle, it would be like a Hemi.  Wink

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):

Now Congress will (finally) have to make a decision, won't they.

Considering this is an election year, that decision would be based upon the permutations of millions of reasons.  Smile
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
KevinSmith
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:41 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 21):
Better yet, maybe the USAF should call Boeing on its past offer of F-15E+ Super Eagles - by having them guarantee the $59M price a pop! But then again, that will be counterproductive to the USAF's real goal.

I like the way you think.
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
AGC525
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RE: 180 F-15s May Be Permanently Grounded

Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:44 pm

Jeeze, that General isn;t a PR guy. He needs to calm down.
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