Devilfish
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CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:11 pm

Flightglobal reports that BAE Systems' Remote Guardian has won the contract to be an "interim" weapon for the Osprey.....

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http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...o-bae-wins-cv-22-gun-contract.html

Quote:
"BAE Systems will start adapting a remotely operated minigun to install on the US Air Force BellBoeing CV-22 Osprey.

The 7.62mm-calibre weapon is officially labeled as an 'interim all-quadrant defensive weapon', but would be the first weapon system to be embedded within the internal structure of a V-22 airframe.

The US Marine Corps operates a ramp-mounted .50-calibre gun on 10 MV-22 Ospreys deployed in Iraq, but this configuration limits the weapon to firing on only rearward targets.

The BAE Systems gun system selected for the CV-22 will be embedded within the 'hell hole' normally used by troops for fast-roping to the ground."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
AirRyan
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:25 pm

What a waste of money on a platform that is already grossly over-budget; let's face it - when your in a V-22 speed and deception is your best bet and if you have to stop to try and return fire your usually going to lose.

Also, I believe that ramp mounted gun on the back of the Marines MV-22 was a M-240G, not a .50 cal - I don't think there is enough room back there for a .50 cal.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:43 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
I don't think there is enough room back there for a .50 cal.

Plus the ammo weighs too much. Imagine this thing taking off with a full load of troops, full of fuel, AND carrying enough .50cal to do any kind of good?
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Tugger
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:25 am

For those who are interested, here is a pic of the 22 with the system:
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MV-22 w/BAE gun system


Tug
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mark5388916
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:08 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 3):

Now that looks cool.... Does anyone know what its clearance between it and the ground?

Mark
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dl021
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:17 am



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
when your in a V-22 speed and deception is your best bet and if you have to stop to try and return fire your usually going to lose.

Except for the part where you are offloading or taking on troops.....during that phase it may be very handy to have a weapon that can be used while the aircraft is descending or ascending at relatively slow speeds. It's also good to be able to lend additional suppressive fires to keep the enemy's heads down around the LZ.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
I believe that ramp mounted gun on the back of the Marines MV-22 was a M-240G, not a .50 cal - I don't think there is enough room back there for a .50 cal.

I think you're right...it's a 240G. But I also believe that a .50 cal will fit back there with room for the troopies to unass the airplane, but the questions are how much more does the ammo weigh, how much can the crew manhandle in the airplane and would a mini-gun better serve that position if they aren't going to use a 60 or a 240?
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Flighty
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:22 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):

The BAE Systems gun system selected for the CV-22 will be embedded within the 'hell hole' normally used by troops for fast-roping to the ground."

Excellent, that avoids having to rope down just to shoot some enemy. Now you can shoot from your $200 million helicopter! Excellent. The old age of dismount and then shoot is coming to a close.
 
L-188
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:50 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
when your in a V-22 speed and deception is your best bet and if you have to stop to try and return fire your usually going to lose.

I tend to agree with you from a DH Mosquito point of view.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
I don't think there is enough room back there for a .50 cal.

They they could get .50's mounted on Huey's in Nam or two of them in the waist of a B-17 they can get it on the back ramp of a Osprey.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 2):
Plus the ammo weighs too much.



Some of those 17's where flying with 25K rounds...I don't think they will be running that heavy in the osprey.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
What a waste of money on a platform that is already grossly over-budget;

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KevinSmith
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:23 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
They they could get .50's mounted on Huey's in Nam

They carried M-60s not Ma Deuces.
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
Devilfish
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:40 pm

Quoting Mark5388916 (Reply 4):
Does anyone know what its clearance between it and the ground?

It's supposed to be retractable.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...offers-gun-for-v-22-tiltrotor.html

Quote:
"BAE's Remote Guardian System comprises a GAU-17 7.62mm minigun mounted on a retractable turret that would be installed in the 'hell hole' under the V-22's cabin."

Quoting Flighty (Reply 6):

Excellent, that avoids having to rope down just to shoot some enemy. Now you can shoot from your $200 million helicopter! Excellent. The old age of dismount and then shoot is coming to a close.

The question now is where they would locate the hoist - from one of the side openings?.....

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Needless to say, the gun must be directed elsewhere when extracting somebody. Even if it's not the designated CSAR platform, it might be tasked to perform that duty when it's the nearest available and time is essential?

[Edited 2008-01-20 12:45:48]
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AirRyan
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:15 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 9):
It's supposed to be retractable.....

Which just begs of maintenance and complexity issues - for example, will the the aircraft be up or down for a mission if the gun doesn't work, or better yet can you land if the stupid gun doesn't retract out of the way and than have to send a $100m dollar airplane into a lot of intensive depot level maintenance?! A gun on the V-22 is and always will be nothing more than an afterthought by the myopic little elves who designed it and is now at best little more than an attempt to appease the conscience of the mothers and wives of those who wield the Osprey into harms way - personally I'd rather save the weight and hassle and just grit my teeth and gun the throttles forward.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 5):
Except for the part where you are offloading or taking on troops.....during that phase it may be very handy to have a weapon that can be used while the aircraft is descending or ascending at relatively slow speeds. It's also good to be able to lend additional suppressive fires to keep the enemy's heads down around the LZ.

Sure the Phrogs it replaces had two .50 cals with decent firing arcs but it flew at half the speed at most as does the Osprey, and quite frankly as easy as we've seen as it is to shoot down an armed gunship like the Apache I'm just not a fan of getting into a urniating contest with someone on the ground with anything from a Kalashnikov to a radar guided ZSU - these aircraft are fotunate enough to fly on their own and they don't need any help getting back to the ground!
 
L-188
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:26 pm

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 8):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
They they could get .50's mounted on Huey's in Nam

They carried M-60s not Ma Deuces.

Granted the the 60C was the standard door gun.......BUT

This is not a M60.
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[Edited 2008-01-20 13:27:49]
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KevinSmith
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
This is not a M60.

Indeed that is a Ma Deuce,
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
dragon6172
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:09 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 9):
Quote:
"BAE's Remote Guardian System comprises a GAU-17 7.62mm minigun mounted on a retractable turret that would be installed in the 'hell hole' under the V-22's cabin."

The way I understand it is the gun has to be retracted for ground clearance. I would imagine they will tie it into the landing gear (i.e. gear goes down, gun goes up, and vice versa). Which to me is just pointless, because its when you are slow and landing that you need the weapon. Just have to hold the gear up longer I suppose.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 7):
They they could get .50's mounted on Huey's in Nam or two of them in the waist of a B-17 they can get it on the back ramp of a Osprey.

I think, but not sure, that it has to do with how much the would have to beef up the ramp to take the pounding from a .50 cal. I have also heard that the V-22 is sensitive to weight and balance issues, so I would imagine a .50 cal gun system and ammo on the ramp and near the back of the aircraft may not work well.
Phrogs Phorever
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:02 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 1):
Also, I believe that ramp mounted gun on the back of the Marines MV-22 was a M-240G, not a .50 cal - I don't think there is enough room back there for a .50 cal.



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 2):
Plus the ammo weighs too much. Imagine this thing taking off with a full load of troops, full of fuel, AND carrying enough .50cal to do any kind of good?



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 13):
I think, but not sure, that it has to do with how much the would have to beef up the ramp to take the pounding from a .50 cal.

I wonder... just how mammoth do you guys think the M2 is????

The truth is, while yes... it's a large weapon... it's not this unreasonably huge gun that you're all making it out to be!!!

We mount two .50s to the floor of Black Hawks at the cargo doors. And we can carry two pilots, six crew, two M240B, fuel, special mission equipment, hundreds of 7.62 rounds, hundreds of .50s rounds, crew luggage... and STILL have room for bags of pogey bait!

So it's really not this insanely large weapon. The whole thing weighs in only around 60lbs (a little more if you need a deck mounting plate like what is needed in the -60s) and the ammo weighs about 300lbs for a 1,000rounds (which is kind of a lot... but if you mount two of them, then 500rounds per gun is still high, but can happen).

So it is certainly possible to mount a .50cal in the back of a CV-22. But why would you want to? The Ospreys in Iraq are not performing the types of missions, nor flying in the regions, where extreme fire power is needed. A ramp mounted 240 serves them well enough.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
dragon6172
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 14):
I wonder... just how mammoth do you guys think the M2 is????

The truth is, while yes... it's a large weapon... it's not this unreasonably huge gun that you're all making it out to be!!!



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 14):
So it is certainly possible to mount a .50cal in the back of a CV-22. But why would you want to? The Ospreys in Iraq are not performing the types of missions, nor flying in the regions, where extreme fire power is needed. A ramp mounted 240 serves them well enough.

Yes yes, I know how big .50s are. I sat behind them for hours and hours and hours. My reference to the beefing of the ramp had more to do with how the shock of firing is transfered to the ramp. The ramp being designed to handle vertical loads, and a weapon system mounted to it would put horizontal loads on it. Especially the recoil produced by the M2. Hell even the M3M that we tested in the H-46 had a huge bulky mount, and although it had springs to take out a lot of the recoil, the mounting system weighed too much and in the end we never used it operationally.

I agree that you don't need an M2 for the mission. We flew around with one per side, couple hundred rounds each is all. Occasionally we would take an extra crew man and carry a M240 on the ramp, but it was not mounted. The crewman had it strapped to his gunners belt. We could not mount it due to the increased wear on the ramp bushings (which on a H-46 are a pain in the ass to change) I think in 14 months the entire unit put all of 30-40 rounds down range in defense. They were however a go/no-go for all flights leaving the base.
Phrogs Phorever
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:55 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 15):
Yes yes, I know how big .50s are. I sat behind them for hours and hours and hours. My reference to the beefing of the ramp had more to do with how the shock of firing is transfered to the ramp. The ramp being designed to handle vertical loads, and a weapon system mounted to it would put horizontal loads on it. Especially the recoil produced by the M2.

It's not as great as you're making it out to be.

The ramps are designed quite sturdy, and can take the sudden forward pressure of a vehicle driving up into the compartment, and also the recoil of a .50cal.

Chinooks have been doing it since the Viet Nam War. Black Hawks have been doing it since the late 80s. The recoil is successfully absorbed by the airframe, although the pilots will feel every time the gun is fired, as the aircraft will want to "lurch" in the opposite direction of fire.

But if "wear & tear" was a huge concern, the gun could be mounted further back onto the main deck of the cargo compartment. It would result in a significant decrease in fire arc, but would eliminate the worries over the ramp. The way the current 240 can be mounted is either on the floor, in a tripod mount... or on a side ramp hinge that reaches up high enough that the flight engineer can stand up while firing, and can swing the gun out far enough to have some sideways firing ability.

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 15):
I think in 14 months the entire unit put all of 30-40 rounds down range in defense.

In Iraq we were frequently engaged, and returned fire. But admittedly, I was in the worst part (Ramadi, Fallujah, Baghdad) and during the height of the insurgency. So I cannot speak accurately on the threat environment in that area. Although my buddies tell me the shit has calmed down dramatically... so I see no need for a .50. ...but I also never really saw a need for the CV-22!!!  Smile

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
mark5388916
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:12 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):

Yet again, another great post by UH60!
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Devilfish
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:02 pm

Please delete - double post. Sorry.

[Edited 2008-02-22 08:08:53]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Devilfish
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:06 pm

Update:

BAE System's gun is installed and undergoing ground tests. Flight testing will follow.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...NX8AAAEAAHQgcY4AAAAD&modele=jdc_34

BAE Systems Installs Defensive Weapon System on CV-22 Osprey in Preparation for Ground-Fire and Flight Testing

(Source: BAE Systems; issued Feb. 21, 2008)

Quote:
"JOHNSON CITY, N.Y. --- BAE Systems has installed a remotely operated defensive weapon system aboard a U.S. Air Force CV-22 Osprey in preparation for ground-fire and flight testing. The hardware installation and ensuing fit-check, completed in January, follow the company's recent selection to develop an interim all-quadrant defensive weapon system for the Osprey.

The U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM), which awarded the contract to integrate and test the weapon mission kit on the CV-22, is currently performing ground testing, with flight testing to follow. SOCOM oversaw the successful installation of the system hardware aboard the aircraft in January at Hurlburt Field, Florida.

'BAE Systems installed the weapon hardware to confirm the system's suitability to CV-22 and its mission,' said Clark Freise, vice president of defense avionics for BAE Systems. 'We will work with SOCOM to complete the development of this system and to demonstrate its effectiveness in protecting these aircraft and the Special Operations forces they carry'."


Is there a big difference between the GAU-17 mentioned in the previous press release in Reply 9 and the newly installed GAU-2B undergoing tests in this report?
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dragon6172
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RE: CV-22 - Unarmed No More

Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:47 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 19):
Is there a big difference between the GAU-17 mentioned in the previous press release in Reply 9 and the newly installed GAU-2B undergoing tests in this report?

GAU-17 is crew served, GAU-2 is remote operated.
Phrogs Phorever

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