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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:30 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 99):
So what's pending for Rafale?

Well, there's the UAE, if they could pull through this.....

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4775556&c=FEA&s=CVS

Quote:
"PARIS - The United Arab Emirates (UAE) has requested technical information on the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, a surprise move that turns an anticipated order of Dassault Rafales into a $10 billion competition, an Arabian Gulf defense source said.

'The UAE is asking the U.S. for information on the F/A-18 Super Hornet in the single- and twin-seater version,' the source said. 'It is in the very early stages; it's a preliminary contact. The UAE has opened the door to them.'

UAE authorities approached Boeing about a month ago and were directed to the U.S. government, which is expected to respond in a month or so, a U.S. source said.

It's not clear why Abu Dhabi has suddenly expressed interest in the latest version of the U.S. strike fighter. Technology may be part of the reason, but politics is likely the main cause.

[.....]

The UAE is looking to replace the 63 Dassault Mirage 2000-9s it bought just over a decade ago. As part of Paris' efforts to sell the Rafale, France has offered to buy back the Mirage aircraft, which it would hold in a special-purpose company while looking for an export buyer.

[.....]

Why The Shift?

It was not immediately clear why the UAE is exploring a U.S.-made option.

The U.S. source said the Gulf state is believed to be frustrated over price and the technology offered by France.

UAE authorities have been negotiating with the French government and industry a potential co-development of a more capable 'fifth-generation' model of the Rafale.

Abu Dhabi is being asked to pay to upgrade the Rafale, while the F-18 is already at the desired technological level.

The Gulf source said, 'The Super Hornet has everything we need. We don't need to co-develop or modify it'."



Come to think of it, those Mirage 2000-9s wouldn't be a bad compromise to replace the Swiss F-5s - at a reasonable price, of course.....

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[Edited 2010-09-18 17:41:13]
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:35 am

Update:

A year later, this blog reported that the budget for the F-5 replacement purchase had been approved, and that a referendum was rejected.....

http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/2011/...t-for-22-new-fighter.html?spref=tw

Quote:
"September 28th, the Council of the states approved the budget to order 22 new fighter jets, rejecting the referendum option. If this order is stated in the 2012 defense program, the winner of the contest should be revealed before February 2012."


Another report said the current favorable exchange against the Euro could reduce the cost by as much as SwF30M per frame, which could hasten the deal. The question now is whether it will be included in the 2012 spending list.         

Might this finally be the homestretch of this protracted race?   
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art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:20 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 101):
"September 28th, the Council of the states approved the budget to order 22 new fighter jets, rejecting the referendum option. If this order is stated in the 2012 defense program, the winner of the contest should be revealed before February 2012."

I wonder if the budget has changed. It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros. I guess that would cover the cost of 22 Gripen but would it cover 22 Rafale/Typhoon including attendant costs?
 
Arniepie
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting art (Reply 102):
It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs.
At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros

That's an F in math for you.
[edit post]
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting art (Reply 102):
2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros.

Your figures makes it 1.76 Billion Euros......
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art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:34 pm

Quoting Arniepie (Reply 103):
Quoting art (Reply 102):
It was reported as being 2.2 billion Swiss Francs.
At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros

That's an F in math for you.
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 104):
Quoting art (Reply 102):
2.2 billion Swiss Francs. At 1 Swiss Franc = ca 0.8 euros, that would now be ca 2.65 billion euros.

Your figures makes it 1.76 Billion Euros......

Sorry.

What an amazingly dumb thing to do - not to look at the 2 figures and realise I had calculated them upside down, inside out, front to back!
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:55 pm

Quoting art (Reply 102):

I wonder if the budget has changed.

This report only cites the Army as the main beneficiary of the budget increase.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ts-fighter-choice-by-year_end.html

Quote:
"During the fall 2011 session, Parliament decided to increase, beginning in 2014, the army’s spending limit to 5 billion francs. This represents about 600 million francs more than the amount provided in the current financial plan.

In doing so, Parliament wants to ensure the development of the army (DEVA) by increasing its authorized manpower to 100,000 soldiers, and guarantee the filling of existing gaps in equipment, as well as the acquisition of new combat aircraft.
"


This suggests that the price is definitely in Gripen territory. Which other manufacturer would be willing to play in that ballpark for the yearender win.....assuming that indeed they'd announce the decision then?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:17 am

Just to complicate matters...

Nov 2, 2011
"RUAG Aviation, which looks after Switzerland’s F-5E/F fleet, says the number of operational F-5s in the world has increased in recent years. The company carried out an analysis of alternatives for the Swiss defense ministry, which is considering putting off a buy of new fighters (Rafales, Typhoons or Gripens) and settling for an F-5 upgrade and another decade of operations."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s%20F-5%20Upgrades&channel=defense
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:06 am

Just for the record. Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation. As can be seen in the Tagi today: http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...-unter-Druck-setzen/story/17131363
But the political will to complete this deal anytime soon is far from given. There is a strong opposition within the parliament and within the people (who will very likely be in charge to decide ultimatively).

[Edited 2011-11-03 03:07:50]
 
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autothrust
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:39 pm

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 108):
Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation. As can be seen in

Don't believe a word what this newspaper writes.
I have readed other sources where swiss pilots favoured clearly the Eurofighter.(http://offiziere.ch)

Besides, some write the Eurofighter being in a other ligue then the other candidates.

Finally they will choose what Switzerland can afford. And the Gripen would be much more affordable then the Rafale/Typhoon.

1. It makes no sense as F-5 replacement to buy a A/G fighter like the Rafale, a job the F/A-18 can do.

2. Switzerland needs a great interceptor and air superiority fighter. Both the Gripen and Eurofighter(dual channel link to Meteor) better the Rafale in terms of AA weapons integration and the Typhoon in Avionics, agility, acceleration, thrust to weight,RCS etc...

3. The EF and Gripen have been exported successfully(while the Rafale not) and the Typhoon has proved itself on many occasion including CAS/CAP Missions in Afghanistan. Also Typhoon won easily over SU-35 in the Indian competition.

4. The EF or Gripen are used from many airforces, which swiss pilots could do training and learn from.

5.The DASS or Pretorian System on the Typhoon is one of the most capable, highly integrated and automated self defence system, comparable to the F-22 system. A system which would give the edge to swiss pilots over any agressor.

6.Spares and Maintenance(and experiences) can be shared within the nations about the Gripen and Typhoon unlike the Rafale.

There can be IMO only two options : Gripen or Typhoon. If the Rafale wins it will be politically motivated.

[Edited 2011-11-04 05:40:27]
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:47 pm

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 108):
Just for the record. Several sources claim that the Rafale is favoured by the technical evaluation
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 109):
Don't believe a word what this newspaper writes.

I cannot read this article since it is in german, but I am surprised indeed, I would have thought the Swiss Air Force would prefer the plane which has the best climb rate, therefore the Typhoon. I wonder what this technical evaluation consists of, I assume it is more than just comparing the aircraft performances?

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 109):
If the Rafale wins it will be politically motivated.

I tend to agree with that, but I think in that kind of deal politic is actually very important.
Stephane
 
art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:22 pm

New kid should be appearing on the block soon.

"South Korea will begin mass production of an armed model of its supersonic trainer jet starting in 2013, the state procurement agency said Friday.

The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) said it will finalize a deal within this year so that the first armed version of the T-50 trainer jet, dubbed the FA-50, will be delivered to the Air Force by August 2013. Sources said up to 60 FA-50 jets will be produced by 2016.

FA-50s are designed to fill the void left by outdated Air Force fighters, such as the A-37 and F-5. Officials say the multirole FA-50 is comparable to KF-16 aircraft."

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/nati...01000000AEN20111104008100315F.HTML

If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers, what would be a better candidate than the FA-50? Or Tejas... but then I don't think India has much interest in exporting Tejas.
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:56 pm

Quoting art (Reply 111):
If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers, what would be a better candidate than the FA-50? Or Tejas... but then I don't think India has much interest in exporting Tejas.

I don't see either the FA-50 or the Tejas being considered in the swiss bid and other than 3rd world countries I can't see anyone being interested in buying the Tejas either. Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale. I look for the swiss of they don't just decide to replace their fleet amd make them all hornets to purchase the gripens.
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting art (Reply 111):
If this ends up with the Swiss people voting against a selected Gripen/Rafale/Typhoon replacement for its F-5 Tigers

Just to clear up things, does this mean that the linked blog report in #101 saying that the Council rejected the referendum intentionally misled readers?

Quoting art (Reply 111):
what would be a better candidate than the FA-50?

It seems you see the same potential in the FA-50 as I did in #96.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ai...20display-thumb-560x400-146050.jpg

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):

I don't see either the FA-50 or the Tejas being considered in the swiss bid

IF the replacement is not decided indefinitely, the scenario could change dramatically should the Golden Eagle be confirmed for the US T-X requirement. LockMart, by contract, is the designated agent for international and US sales of the T-50 and its derivatives. A T-X win, if it comes to pass, would open a range of upgrade paths and FMS opportunities, and ensure after sales spares and support. Also, the stipulation that the T-50 cannot be more capable than the Falcons is now moot with South Korea upgrading its F-16s. As countries who could afford the Vipers dwindle, LockMart may find a downmarket FA-50 a good seller.

The only caveat being LM might be very tempted to pimp it up so much to raise the price. A big no-no in these times when even First World nations are only willing to pay Third World money for their defence acquisitions.   
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art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:17 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):
Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.

Exactly. If a plebiscite rejects a deal for whatever is chosen due to the cost, either the Tigers soldier on or a cheaper, more modest aircraft is considered. If you need to replace your car but can't get the funding for a Mercedes, you might then try to get a lower level of funding for a Volkswagen, might you not?
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:03 am

Quoting art (Reply 111):
New kid should be appearing on the block soon.

No way Switzerland would buy this already obsolete plane. As a trainer it might be a great choice though, but that's just not what the airforce needs.

The F-5 or FA-50 have no future in the Swiss Airforce.

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):
Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.

Couldn't agree more.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:25 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 115):
The F-5 or FA-50 have no future in the Swiss Airforce.

I am sure you know better than me but where the F-5 is concerned, why was the Swiss government trying to get an idea of upgrade costs for the F-5?

Nov 2, 2011
"RUAG Aviation, which looks after Switzerland’s F-5E/F fleet, says the number of operational F-5s in the world has increased in recent years. The company carried out an analysis of alternatives for the Swiss defense ministry, which is considering putting off a buy of new fighters (Rafales, Typhoons or Gripens) and settling for an F-5 upgrade and another decade of operations."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...s%20F-5%20Upgrades&channel=defense

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 115):
Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 112):
Neither of the 2 aircraft have any techinal advancements over the aircraft the swiss are considering and they would be a definate step down from a typhoon and a rafale.

Couldn't agree more.

Of course Tejas and FA-50 are not in the same league as Rafale / Typhoon but that is irrelevant if you cannot get the Swiss people to sanction a Rafale / Typhoon purchase due to their cost.

[Edited 2011-11-12 20:31:20]
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting art (Reply 116):
but that is irrelevant if you cannot get the Swiss people to sanction a Rafale / Typhoon purchase due to their cost.

Apparently, the armed forces chief favors a referendum which Parliament had already decided against.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...tzerland-replacing-its-f-5s-04624/

Quote:
"Nov 20/11: Swiss Chief of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andre Blattmann has gone on record in favor of a referendum over F-5 TTE. His stance reflects confidence, saying 'Si nous n’arrivons pas a convaincre le peuple, ce sera de notre faute,' but Parliament has already decided that its fighter purchase would not be validated by a referendum.

Under Swiss law, it’s possible to force one anyway with 50,000 signatures across at least 8 cantons, gathered within 100 days. The Swiss Green Party and their allies have stated that they intend to try. Swissinfo [French].

Nov 14/11: Aviation Week reports that the Swiss government is expected to announce the F-5 replacement program winner around mid-December 2011."



How's the signature campaign coming along?
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art
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 117):
Quote:
"Nov 20/11: Swiss Chief of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andre Blattmann has gone on record in favor of a referendum over F-5 TTE. His stance reflects confidence, saying 'Si nous n’arrivons pas a convaincre le peuple, ce sera de notre faute,' but Parliament has already decided that its fighter purchase would not be validated by a referendum.

Under Swiss law, it’s possible to force one anyway with 50,000 signatures across at least 8 cantons, gathered within 100 days. The Swiss Green Party and their allies have stated that they intend to try. Swissinfo [French].

Nov 14/11: Aviation Week reports that the Swiss government is expected to announce the F-5 replacement program winner around mid-December 2011."


How's the signature campaign coming along?

If the Green Party membership is of any substantial size (tens of thousands) I would think that with a bit of networking they could reach 50,000 signatures. According to Wiki, the party had elected representatives in 8 cantonal governments in 2007.
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:42 pm

I found this Swiss video (in french, with some interviews in english). Link here below:

http://www.tsr.ch/video/emissions/mi...rnisseurs.html

There is an interview of Fernand Carrel, former head of the Swiss Air Force:

"From the pure operational point of view, the Rafale is heading the race, followed by the Typhoon and then the Gripen"
"I think the pilots would like to get the Rafale but that's certainly not for them to decide"

You just need to put these statements into context as Fernand Carrel is clearly a "Dassault enthusiast"...

They say the price of the Rafale is 150millions which looks a bit fancy...
Stephane
 
bennett123
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:04 pm

Assuming that there is a referendum, what do those proposing it hope to acheive?.
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:30 pm

The link below seems to support the news posted in reply 108 by Reinwaldner:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...-zur-Jetbeschaffung/story/30431448

a google translation available in the Rafalenews forum in militaryphotos.net states about the two swiss air force test reports, "SAF/OT&E Evaluation Report … 2009" and "OT&E Evaluation Report NFA Flight Test 2008":


"
The summary of the second report states: "The Dassault Rafale is the only aircraft that has exceeded the minimum requirements expected in all operating modes"
"

"
The report ends with the request: "The Rafale produced by Dassault is proposed as the new combat aircraft of Swiss Air Force.” Best alternative to it is the Eurofighter.
"

It is also suggested that the Swiss defence minister will likely propose the Gripen due to its cost tomorrow (30th of november) or the 7th of december.
Stephane
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:20 pm

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...d-offenbar-gefallen/story/28653803

It isn't official yet, but the newspapers report that Switzerland selects the Gripen.

The gist of the article:
- they want to buy 22 airframes
- the Eurofighter and the Rafale cost both about CHF 4 billion
- the Gripen can be bought for about 3 billion
- the lower costs were decisive
- anyway, to finance the aircraft the federal government needs to cut in education, science, agriculture and infrastructure

Well, I favored the F-5E/F. 
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fbwless
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:55 pm

Excellent news for Gripen and SAAB if the inside information is true!

The Gripen manufacturing line is drying up and this order will grant some extension to evaulate future options for Gripen NG.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:14 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 122):
It isn't official yet, but the newspapers report that Switzerland selects the Gripen

That was foreseeable. I still think its the best and most important ...affordable solution for switzerland.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:33 pm

Quoting FBWless (Reply 123):
Excellent news for Gripen and SAAB if the inside information is true!

The Gripen manufacturing line is drying up and this order will grant some extension to evaluate future options for Gripen NG.

Wonderful news   could this influence Sweden to more serious evaluate the NG as it's replacement for the C/D,s?
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fbwless
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:55 pm

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 124):
That was foreseeable. I still think its the best and most important ...affordable solution for switzerland.

Not only is Gripen cheaper to buy, it's also cheaper to operate than most other competitors in its class.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:38 pm

This win reaffirms principles which seek balance between the requirement and solution.....  thumbsup 

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/

Quote:
"UPDATE: Saab has now confirmed the Gripen's victory. Here's the statement:

Saab is both proud and delighted that Gripen has been chosen as the Swiss Air Force's future multirole fighter aircraft.

'The Swiss type-selection confirms that Saab is a market-leader in the defence and security industry and that Gripen is a world-class fighter system that provides the best value for money', says Håkan Buskhe, President and CEO Saab.

The Gripen programme will create a long-term partnership between Switzerland and Sweden. Saab assures Switzerland a long-term strategic industrial co-operation aimed at creating sustainable high tech jobs, transferring technology and generating export business.

Saab stands prepared to start negotiations and await the next steps of the process."



Congratulations to SAAB for a well-deserved victory, and to Switzerland for making the right and prudent choice. Hope they and the Swiss people pursue this to a successful conclusion.

Just to clarify a point.....was it a C/D with AESA, or the Gripen NG which won?

[Edited 2011-11-30 09:58:01]
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:49 pm

So,will the PC-21 replace tho old SAAB 105 now?? if everything goes thru ?

Sweden = 115 A-D
Hungary = 14 C/D
Tjeckosl. = 14 C/D
SAAF = 28 C/D
Thailand = 12 C/D
Swiss. = 22 NG

[Edited 2011-11-30 10:03:38]
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autothrust
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting FBWless (Reply 126):
Not only is Gripen cheaper to buy, it's also cheaper to operate than most other competitors in its class.

True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.

Anyway at the end of the day congratulations to SAAB and at least they did buy for once something right.

I never understood why the bought the F-18's.   
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:21 am

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 128):
So,will the PC-21 replace tho old SAAB 105 now?? if everything goes thru?

There's a good chance of that...as the PC-21 will likely be at the top of offset negotiations.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...n-for-f-5-replacement-deal-365457/

Quote:
"It previously pledged to at least meet a 100% offset requirement linked to a Gripen NG purchase, while Stockholm also expressed possible interest in the Swiss-built Pilatus PC-21 as a potential replacement for its Saab 105 jet trainers."

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):

True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.

The Federal Council did say that it was a deliberate choice.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ack-after-swiss-gripen-win-365471/

Quote:
"It confirmed choosing the Swedish fighter due to factors including its lower acquisition and maintenance costs, but conceded that the selection marked a decision 'not to position Switzerland at the highest European level as regards the performance of new combat aircraft'."


And once again the vanquished, had plenty to say about the outcome.....

Quote:
"France's Dassault-led Rafale International team has announced its surprise at being eliminated from a Swiss fighter contest, and claimed that the selection of the Saab Gripen NG on cost grounds does not reflect Berne's previous evaluation of its aircraft.

[.....]

In a statement issued late the same day, the Rafale industry team countered that 'The Swiss-tailored Gripen only exists on paper', and claimed that its completion posed 'technical development and production risk significantly increasing the financial efforts required of the Swiss authorities'. It also challenged the customer nation's wider assumptions on cost.

[.....]

'The Rafale's capacities would enable the Swiss confederation to meet its operational requirements with a smaller number of aircraft at an equivalent or lower cost, as was demonstrated during the assessments by the Swiss air force,' it said."



A bit haughty insisting on less number of aircraft when the customer already defined their desired squadron strength.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Powerslide
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:34 am

When do they expect to receive their first one?
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:21 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 131):
When do they expect to receive their first one?

2015 IF the deal go thru. I read that some parties in Switzerland is trying to stop it since they think that's there no need of a new fighter at all.
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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moriarty
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:31 am

First of all, great news! I think Switzerland not only made a wise choice but a good one.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):
True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.

All this talk about Gripen not having good performance is confusing me. To my knowledge, Gripen performance is very good. Yes, speaking about a couple of key properties like t/w ratio, load etc there's no doubt two engines is better than one. But when looking at performance placed in a larger picture, from value for money, reliability, usability, electronics suite to maintainability the Gripen does very well as I have understood it. So yes, if, in essence, two engines (and the implications of that) are the answer then Gripen does not have it. But I'd say that that pretty much everything speaks to Gripens advantage.

I think, and hope that Switzerland will be very happy with their choice.
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:56 am

One could argue that if cost was such an determinent criteria, it didn't really make any sense to run a lengthy and costly competition process against significantly more expensive planes like Rafale and Typhoon.

Congratulation to the SAAB team anyway, the Gripen will look quite nice with swiss markings....
Stephane
 
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Faro
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:13 am

Congratulations to all; the Gripen is by far the best option possible given Switzerland's military stature and the astronomical costs involved in any military aircraft purchase these days.

Faro
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rheinwaldner
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:19 am

Congratulations to SAAB!

I think they have won because of the best value for money. It is essential for this deal that it comes across as "reasonable". Because the politicial and public resistance against new military jets is considerable. There will be almost certainly be a referendum.

So the Gripen has indead the biggest chance to become reality. The following factors could add some positive momentum for the Gripen when it comes to the referendum:

- It is the cheapest

- It is from Sweden, a country to which the Swiss have a special affinity because they are perceived as a "small player" too.

- The fact that this similar-minded, socialist, northern country since ages is able, to not only possess a considerable Air Force, but to design even the aircraft by themselves might unlock affirmative forces more than the costly high tech gadgets from France or EADS (which could be perceived as EU).

- It is not from France or Germany. Two countries that might lack some appeal from the Swiss point of view because they represent the EU more than other country. And because Switzerland recently faces a number of attacks from them in different areas (namely LSZH noise and bank customers). Buying client identifying data from Swiss banks on the black market is not the business the Swiss have in mind when they stipulate compensation deals for their military aequisitions.

From our fan perspective it sad on the other hand that the much more exciting Rafale or Eurofighter had no chance in this contest of modesty. My personal favourite would have been the Rafale, first because it has a flavour of that underdog-mentality too (undeserved) and second because Dassault is the provider of the most fascinating Swiss military aircraft ever, the Mirage IIIS!
 
flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:57 am

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 136):
Dassault is the provider of the most fascinating Swiss military aircraft ever, the Mirage IIIS!

That's what I think too, that Mirage-3S was legend.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):
I never understood why the bought the F-18's

Was it down to cost issues as well? Was it an attractive offer financially?
Stephane
 
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autothrust
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:00 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 130):
The Federal Council did say that it was a deliberate choice.....

Yes of course it was a deliberate choice, the Federal Councillor has said he wanted not the most expensive fighter to not cause tensions within the army / airforce. He even said altough the Gripen was last in evaluation campaign it's a good affordable solution and enough for switzerland.

Quoting moriarty (Reply 133):
All this talk about Gripen not having good performance is confusing me. To my knowledge, Gripen performance is very good.

And I agree fully it is a great fighter, and IMO very good looking but if we look at the fact's it's performance is not at the same level then it's competitors and it has not only to do with the engine.
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:47 pm

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 129):
True but it doesn't deliver nowhere the same performance compared to its competitors.

What is the intended purpose of the new Gripen at all? Being in the middle of Europe, we only need aircraft to police the airspace and be able to police nutcases, like the one circling over FRA for hours back in 2003, threatening to crash into a building. Switzerland is too small for fast airplanes anyway. Want to turn our federal parliament into a crater? Start in BSL, 10-12 minutes later you're there.

I've never read any mission specifics for that new aircraft, only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.

Rather, I see potential for a PC-9/PC-21-based close air support aircraft, and some faster reconnaissance aircraft (okay, the F/A-18C could do that job).

I'm just asking for some enlightenment.  
Quoting flagon (Reply 137):
Was it down to cost issues as well? Was it an attractive offer financially?

I remember a TV broadcast years back, one episode of the "Rundschau". It said that Finland got its F/A-18C/D either cheaper, or it procured them "cheaper" by buying relatively less (62 airframes vs the 34 Switzerland bought) despite having a much bigger landmass and even bordering to the Soviet Union. They also said that it could reduce costs by using mobile radars distributed all over the vast forests, though...

The fact that the AF includes the most modern, neeeearly affordable aircraft (Eurofighter) into the evaluation and we still not possess CAS aircraft, transport aircraft with a better range than the Cougar helicopter and air-ground weapons for the EC635 helicopter gives me food for thought. Surely doesn't help dispelling the criticism that the air force always wants the best toys...

[Edited 2011-12-01 04:49:46]
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flagon
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:59 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
I've never read any mission specifics for that new aircraft, only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.

I guess that's where some people see a bit of an issue here, as the Basler Zeitung published yesterday two charts extracted from the confidential evaluation reports showing that for some types of mission the gripen didn't score to the minimum required (it scored around 5.5 or so I think), ie it didn't match the benchmark set by the hornet, which was 6 points...
Stephane
 
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autothrust
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:20 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
Being in the middle of Europe, we only need aircraft to police the airspace and be able to police nutcases, like the one circling over FRA for hours back in 2003, threatening to crash into a building

I fully agree. For that job the Gripen is better suited then the F/A-18.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
Switzerland is too small for fast airplanes anyway.

The question is not speed, it is acceleration. In a QRA situation you want to have your plane's as fast and as soon as possible in the air and at the threat or problem.The Typhoon for example would be within 5min's or less at any point of switzerland the Gripen 10 or less.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
only that it is compared against the F/A-18C and should be "better" than that one.

It is better, but not much.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
The fact that the AF includes the most modern, neeeearly affordable aircraft (Eurofighter) into the evaluation and we still not possess CAS aircraft, transport aircraft with a better range than the Cougar helicopter

Again i agree but, for what do we need a CAS aircraft ?It was however a big failure to dismiss the CASA-295 purchase plans.
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autothrust
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 140):
Basler Zeitung published yesterday two charts extracted from the confidential evaluation reports

The released evaluation reports are flawed according to the federal councillor Ueli Maurer.   

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...-Gripen-abschiessen/story/19277795
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flyingturtle
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:24 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 140):

Then I'll look for this chart sometime...  
Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141):
The question is not speed, it is acceleration.

Okay, understandable!

But then, as the Wikipedia says...

"A report in the Swiss news magazine FACTS reveals that in peacetime, the Swiss air force only provides ready-to-take-off aircraft during office hours on working days. The air force staff stated a peacetime 24/7 operational flying status as "mission impossible", due to budget limitations and limited professional (flying) personnel capacity. This did not apply to the air defense radar coverage of which 24/7 peacetime operational capacity was guaranteed."

If this hasn't changed, I don't know how they're solving this impasse by phasing out 42 Tigers and buying only 22 Gripens. But I agree that defense must be as economical as possible - nothing should have the smell of an expensive gewgaw.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141):
Again i agree but, for what do we need a CAS aircraft ?It was however a big failure to dismiss the CASA-295 purchase plans.

Infantry/mechanized warfare support. There were times when our jets had an air-ground-role, but admittedly that was more justified in cold war times - destroying Soviet tank columns long before they reach Switzerland.

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 142):
The released evaluation reports are flawed according to the federal councillor Ueli Maurer.

EXCELLENT way of doing damage control when a document was leaked!  Hats off to Mr. Maurer  
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
fbwless
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:16 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 130):
In a statement issued late the same day, the Rafale industry team countered that 'The Swiss-tailored Gripen only exists on paper', and claimed that its completion posed 'technical development and production risk significantly increasing the financial efforts required of the Swiss authorities'. It also challenged the customer nation's wider assumptions on cost.

Ignoring your competitors is dangerous in defense business. Rafale team has missed the Gripen NG Demo completely! Now of course this is not the final defined NG but much more close than calling the Gripen NG a paper plane.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 143):
If this hasn't changed, I don't know how they're solving this impasse by phasing out 42 Tigers and buying only 22 Gripens. But I agree that defense must be as economical as possible - nothing should have the smell of an expensive gewgaw.

Swedish AF replaced its 300+ SAAB 37 Viggen with 105 Gripen. Talk about downsizing!
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:43 pm

Quoting FBWless (Reply 144):
Swedish AF replaced its 300+ SAAB 37 Viggen with 105 Gripen. Talk about downsizing!

Is the Gripen that much reliable, or less maintenance-intensive?


Not wanting to hijack the thread, but amusing history: Well, concerning Dassault's complaining that huge costs might overwhelm Switzerland (Devilfish's #130): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History..._the_Swiss_Air_Force#Mirage_affair  (Well, it wasn't Dasault's fault...)

[Edited 2011-12-01 11:45:21]
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fbwless
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:48 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 145):
Is the Gripen that much reliable, or less maintenance-intensive?

The plans in the 80's and 90's were to have 204 Gripens in the Swedish AF but with major cutbacks of the Swedish defense and replanning, only 105 Gripens was finally needed.

Maintenance costs are low for Gripen and this has been an important factor in every Fighter RFP although not so often a winning one.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:53 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 141):
I fully agree. For that job the Gripen is better suited then the F/A-18.

The F-18 superhornet if thats what everyone is refering to is over kill for the swiss, the gripen would provide them a low cost modern aircraft for what is needed it would also go to keep the US happy since a good many parts for the gripen including the engines are made by US companies and the aircraft can handle US ordinance in it. Perfect fit in my opinion. It helps keep a neighbor happy and the US happy even if they dont advertise it the US and swiss have always had a good relationship.
 
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:48 am

Gripen was chosen principally on the basis of cost, it seems, not all out capability. I wonder if Brazil will end up going down the Gripen route. With the air force apparently supporting Gripen selection for budgetary reasons, it only needs the government to choose on the basis of cost, development and production workshare (rather than strategic alliance with France) for Gripen to win.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:35 am

Aviation Week has a pretty good story and interview with Swiss Defense Minister regarding the selection process.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...%20Saab,%20Gripen%20NG%20A%20Boost

Basically the Gripen was the best overall option when things like fighter performance and cost were compared.
At the end of the day the Swiss would get the most bang for their Francs with the Saab compared to the more costly and complex peers.
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