LHStarAlliance
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Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:21 pm

Hi guys !

Could it be Possible that the Luftwaffe orders A/Cs like the F22 ? Of American Production , or just A/Cs of EADS ?


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ebj1248650
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:28 pm

In the past, the Luftwaffe has ordered American airplanes. Examples include the F-84F, RF-84F, F-4F and other non-combat types. There's no reason to believe the Luftwaffe wouldn't buy an American airplane if it fits their needs better than anything else that's available and the price is right.

On the flip side, strong confidence in the European aircraft manufacturers and better airplanes from those sources makes buying European a smart thing to do. Typhoon is an outstanding fighter and there's really little need to buy the F-22.
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Venus6971
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:54 pm

If the dollar to Euro exchange rate is good it might make good fiscal sense to buy US.
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keesje
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:01 pm

It seem to me the JSF is a best in class aircraft but I don't see a place directly in the Luftwaffe for it. Then again the large Tornado fleet needs to be replaced by (probably, likely) a twin engined, stealth, long range, 2 crew, air-ground attack aircraft, with long range, buddy refuelling capability and a of lot a sensors for typical regional crisis operations, a bit F111 / Su-32 like. It seems the USAF is looking for similar aircraft and they are not the only ones, so who knows, a joint project?
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N328KF
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Could it be Possible that the Luftwaffe orders A/Cs like the F22 ? Of American Production , or just A/Cs of EADS ?

Well, the Luftwaffe looks to be buying a batch of Global Hawks. They may also be a P-8 customer (though they could just as easily buy the Airbus MRA.) There has also been on-again-off-again talks of them buying or leasing C-17s.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
pelican
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:40 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
Well, the Luftwaffe looks to be buying a batch of Global Hawks.

To be precise they are buying Eurohawk(s) - one demonstrator and an option of another four - which are going to have EADS sensors on board.

pelican

[Edited 2008-01-30 10:00:50]
 
GDB
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:46 pm

Beyond Typhoon procurement, would the remaining German Tornados be replaced one for one by another aircraft type even?
Beyond Typhoon, for Germany, I see UCAVs.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:27 am



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 2):
If the dollar to Euro exchange rate is good it might make good fiscal sense to buy US.

In the short time yes, but in the long run it is better to spend a bit more so that we don't loose our capability to manufacture high end military aircraft.

Jan
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columba
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:03 pm



Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
Hi guys !

Could it be Possible that the Luftwaffe orders A/Cs like the F22 ? Of American Production , or just A/Cs of EADS ?

They seem to be pretty reluctant to buy American aircraft, an European solution is prefered most of the time. They did that back with the Eurofighter athough the F-15 and F 18 were evaluated. The F-16 was never an option because of its single engine and after the F 104 accidents the Luftwaffe has had (don´t know if this is still valid) a twin engine only policy.
As the Eurofighter will likely be the only manned aircraft that the Luftwaffe will operate in the near future only Cargo and Helicopters as well as UAVs seem to be possible to join the Luftwaffe´s fleet of aircraft.
The JSF was once brought in as an option for the Navy Tornados as one requirement for the next Navy fighter was the ability to land on carrier decks from allies and EF would not be able to do that. Since the Navy has gotten rid of its jets this will also not happen but the EF will get air-to-sea weapons instead.
As a new cargo aircraft they went for the A400M and did not order the C17 or C130J. They also did not lease them as an interim solution but went for leased Antonovs instead. As they were looking into new VIP aircraft they choose the Bombardier over the Global Express.
Helicopters they were interested in the CH 53K but considerd it too small and are looking now for a new build design by Eurocopter or an advanced Mil 26.
So only UAVs will be based on US technology like the Euro/Global Hawk (Global Hawk is considered as RECCE Tornado replacement) and the Predator will likely be acquired as it was said a couple of time in the media.
Another option in a decade or so might be the P8 if the second hand P3 orions acquired a few years ago will get old.
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Devilfish
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:03 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Then again the large Tornado fleet needs to be replaced by (probably, likely) a twin engined, stealth, long range, 2 crew, air-ground attack aircraft, with long range, buddy refuelling capability and a of lot a sensors for typical regional crisis operations,

This seems to fit that description.....

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...3%20Super%20Hornet&channel=defense

Quote:
"To be available circa 2024, the sixth generation aircraft would feature a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles and stealth against a much wider spectrum of radars.

[.....]

For Boeing, the real discriminators are going to be extended range (1,000-1,500 miles), a small radar signature against low-frequency radars, expanded awareness through connections with the network, and the ability to carry a number of bombs internally."


Of course, this could be nothing more than a Boeing spin to get countries to buy an updated Super Bug.

For convenience, they may buy American surveillance platforms. Or they might go for variants of these.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_NATO_AGS_lg.jpg

Although developing one for their exclusive use might be cost prohibitive.
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romeokc10fe
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:28 pm



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1):
Typhoon is an outstanding fighter and there's really little need to buy the F-22.

They couldn't buy the F-22 if they wanted to, the Raptor is not for export sale to any nation period.
 
checksixx
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:14 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
As they were looking into new VIP aircraft they choose the Bombardier over the Global Express.

I think your confused. Bombardier is the manufacturer of the Global Express.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:40 pm



Quoting Pelican (Reply 5):
To be precise they are buying Eurohawk(s) - one demonstrator and an option of another four - which are going to have EADS sensors on board.

It doesn't matter, it's a Global Hawk with European (not necessarily EADS) sensors.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:09 pm

Why not, we got some MiGs and SUs from them.  biggrin 
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PADSpot
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting N328KF (Reply 12):
it's a Global Hawk with European (not necessarily EADS) sensors.

The Eurohawk is a joint venture between NorthropGrumman and EADS and will necessarily carry EADS sensors. EADS however may contract some sensors out to Thales, BAe, STN Atlas or some Italian company who have a much longer history of making sensors, but the final sensors will sponsored and approved by EADS.

From what could be read from reliable sources the reason for the joint venture here is not to keep the money in Europe as usual, but to make those sensors available in the first place. The sensors that Luftwaffe wants would probably never make it through US export restrictions just like a full-scale APG-77 would never make it to export for instance.

Apart from that I can't hear this Euro bullshit-designations anymore. What next? Euro-toilet paper? A couple of weeks ago I went to Prague by road to visit a friend and once I passed the Czech border there was a sign that read "Euro-Love". I knew there is French, Greek and Russian Love, but what is Euro-Love supposed to be? ... People are going over board with that Euro-bullshit. Why can't they just buy an empty B-model GlobalHawk, put their owner sensors on it and leave it by that?
 
columba
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:44 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):
I think your confused. Bombardier is the manufacturer of the Global Express.

Sorry I meant the they chose Global Express over the Gulfstream.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:05 am

I personally dont see the FA-22 in europes future is too much of an aircraft that you dont need when you have the euor-fighter that other than stealth and air to ground can cover. If the F-35 should ever be developed then maybe a few would purchase it to go along with the euro-fighter at low numbers like the british, but I would have to agree that I see europe going to more of an un-manned aircraft as a mix.
 
pelican
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:05 pm



Quoting N328KF (Reply 12):
It doesn't matter, it's a Global Hawk with European (not necessarily EADS) sensors.

Of course it matters - a significant part of the contract was given to a European (German) supplier. In the end the Eurohawk is not an American aircraft but an American-German joint venture.

pelican
 
checksixx
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:06 am



Quoting Columba (Reply 15):
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 11):
I think your confused. Bombardier is the manufacturer of the Global Express.


Sorry I meant the they chose Global Express over the Gulfstream.

No worries...I only pointed that out so you'd correct yourself...I wanted to know what they chose. So...any reason they opted out of Gulfstream? I'm guessing the larger cabin (I think) on the Global....
 
columba
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:31 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 18):
No worries...I only pointed that out so you'd correct yourself...I wanted to know what they chose. So...any reason they opted out of Gulfstream? I'm guessing the larger cabin (I think) on the Global....

They currently have the Challenger that will be replaced by the Global so this might be an option also the maintenance will be done by Lufthansa Technik (which has a lot of experience with Bombardier) and Bombardier in Gemany so this might have influenced the decision.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
atmx2000
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:50 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
Another option in a decade or so might be the P8 if the second hand P3 orions acquired a few years ago will get old.

I doubt the P8 will be seriously considered, as Airbus is offering something based on the A320 family.
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PADSpot
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:34 am



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 20):

I doubt the P8 will be seriously considered, as Airbus is offering something based on the A320 family.

As the German Navy has practically retreated from armed naval and anti-sub reconnaissance I doubt it will be either of the two, but an UAV. Something one category larger than the RQ-4B, probably. Currently on the P-3C weapon delivery is not trained anymore.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:01 am



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1):
Examples include the F-84F, RF-84F, F-4F

How can you forget the F-104?!?!
This space intentionally left blank
 
PADSpot
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:03 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 22):
How can you forget the F-104?!?!

Maybe because it was largely locally produced?

Today the only area where US technology still enjoys a large market share in German defense spendings are missile systems. Many of them (TOW, Harpoon, Stinger, SeaSparrow, AMRAAM and Sidewinder) will be replaced within the next 5-10 years, but PATRIOT/MEADS, GMRLS, SM-2ER, ESSM and RAM (if you count it as US technology) are there to stay. As Germany participated heavily in the development of those missile systems (except SM-2ER), it seems to be part of the political agenda to maintain close ties in this field (or just a prerequisite?).

Apart from that I don't see billion-dollar type-of sales opportunity for US def-tech in Germany in any area. However there are some smaller ones ...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:05 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 22):
Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1):
Examples include the F-84F, RF-84F, F-4F

How can you forget the F-104?!?!

And the F-86

Jan
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PADSpot
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:35 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
And the F-86

I think we had the Canadair version ...
 
TedTAce
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:23 am



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 23):
Maybe because it was largely locally produced?

Fair enough, but I consider that semantic.
This space intentionally left blank
 
columba
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:52 pm

Are there any news regarding the possible acquisition of H-92 Superhawks for the German Navy and as a possible CSAR platform ?
Also with the further delay of the A400M might we see C130J or even C17s as an interim solution ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Arrow
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:20 am



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 25):
I think we had the Canadair version ...

Yes you did. Much hotter than the original thanks to that Orenda engine.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:45 am



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 1):
In the past, the Luftwaffe has ordered American airplanes. Examples include the F-84F, RF-84F, F-4F and other non-combat types.



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 22):
How can you forget the F-104?!?!

They also flew the B-707-320B/Cs for a lot of years (decades). I believe some of the B-707s were orginally LH B-707-320Bs.
 
columba
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:16 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
They also flew the B-707-320B/Cs for a lot of years (decades). I believe some of the B-707s were orginally LH B-707-320Bs.

They are still flying - for NATO - as Trainers and Cargo aircraft.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
olle
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:25 pm

Considering the JSF and Norway conversation, can we be sure that Eurofighter is really Nato standard  Wink

Second reading the the conversation about European exports to US, if US cannot trust european fighters to protect US airspace, why do US expect for example Norway to buy US, and not European and trust forreign for their safety?

Sorry I could not avoid  Wink
 
PADSpot
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:38 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 27):
Are there any news regarding the possible acquisition of H-92 Superhawks for the German Navy

The only official information I read is that the MH-90 was shifted to 2014 in the "Armed Forces Plan 2009". I would be a fan of an German H-92 ... it is way cheaper and a far better replacement for the Westland Sea Kings.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
I believe some of the B-707s were orginally LH B-707-320Bs.

AFAIK they were at least directly delivered to the Air Force. Maybe they were diverted from a LH order ...

Did anyone mention the four Global Express 5000 that will arrive in 2011? My bet here was on the Falcon 900, but the Bombardiers are also fine. And they are American at least in a broad sense
 
SkyyKat
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:48 am



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 32):
Bombardiers are also fine. And they are American at least in a broad sense

Canadian, thank you. Big grin

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 32):
My bet here was on the Falcon 900

That is what I was thinkng too.
 
columba
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:35 pm



Quoting PADSpot (Reply 32):
The only official information I read is that the MH-90 was shifted to 2014 in the "Armed Forces Plan 2009". I would be a fan of an German H-92 ... it is way cheaper and a far better replacement for the Westland Sea Kings.

I think so, too, but I really believe that they will stick to the MH 90 instead.
I have high hopes for the CH 53K as I think it would be a logical decision, the Army already operates the CH 53 and the development of the Eurocopter HTH will costs a lot and will last forever as seen with the Eurofighter, Tiger, A400M, NH 90..........................
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:31 pm

The time for the Luftwaffe ordering huge amounts of airplanes is over, at least for the next 20 to 30 years, with the exception of more airlift capability, where the commitment to the A400M project prevents large new purchases of other aircraft.

Since the early 1970s, Germany indeed has focused on developing their own systems in European cooperation, but I would not rule out that they buy US equipment where it suits their needs. However, German military industry is the 2nd largest arms exporter in the world (actually that surprised me quite a bit), and most of the time they will have a suitable product available.

I do think there is one point, however, which might help the US to get German orders. European cooperation has largely eliminated competition in Europe. This means usually there is only one European product available, and this leads to cost overruns, delays and maybe inferior product quality. Bids from US competitors could be desireable here in order to insure proper quality. Just like in the aviation industry, no one can be interested to have only one remaining company.
 
WAH64D
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:45 pm



Quoting RomeoKC10FE (Reply 10):
They couldn't buy the F-22 if they wanted to, the Raptor is not for export sale to any nation period.

A pointless statement. F-22 brings nothing to the party for the Luftwaffe.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
columba
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:58 am

Right now the only US airplane on order is the Global Hawk and the Luftwaffe is also looking at the Predator UAV.

As for fix winged aircraft I always hoped for some C17s in addition to the A400M like in the UK but the chances are more than slim.

The only US made aircraft that in the running right now are the H-92 for the Navy and as a CSAR helicopter for the Luftwaffe as well as the CH 53K.

Sikorsky was asked to make an offer on these three helicopters this May but I have not heard nothing since then.
Maybe in another 10 years when the P-3 needs to be retired we will look at the P-8 but I guess the next MPA will either be unmanned or an A32x.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Devilfish
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:29 am



Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
Maybe in another 10 years when the P-3 needs to be retired we will look at the P-8 but I guess the next MPA will either be unmanned or an A32x.

They're moving away from manned platforms for the AGS. Odds of them adapting A32Xs for MPA are getting slim.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...m-airbus-power8-restructuring.html

Quote:
"The company also expects to see major changes to NATO's Alliance Ground Surveillance programme within the next month, with interest in acquiring a mixed fleet of manned and unmanned aircraft appearing to have shifted towards a fully unmanned capability.

If confirmed, the decision to acquire up to eight Northrop Grumman RQ-4 Global Hawk high-altitude long-endurance UAVs carrying Northrop/Raytheon MP-RTIP sensors would remove an earlier requirement for modified Airbus A321s carrying Transatlantic Cooperative AGS Radars. "There is a high probability that we might see a UAV-only solution," said Zoller. The decision would also come as bad news for Europe's SOSTAR-X radar demonstration effort, which had hoped to feed technologies into the AGS system."


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...nces-eurohawk-production-work.html
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romeokc10fe
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:01 pm



Quoting WAH64D (Reply 36):
A pointless statement. F-22 brings nothing to the party for the Luftwaffe.

Uhhhhh...if you'd take the time to read the FIRST post you will see that is what this thread was started about.
 
olle
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:02 pm

Most projects that is very hightech gets overruns in time and budgets... The US projects is examples of this and also in civillian projects we have seen the same..

So this is not only eurean projects...
 
PADSpot
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:40 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
As for fix winged aircraft I always hoped for some C17s in addition to the A400M like in the UK but the chances are more than slim.

The more delays the A400M is accumulating, the higher the chances become. Especially given the more and more solidifying fact that the first production airframe will not be up to the requirements.

If I had a say in this, I'd would simply refuse to accept any aircraft that will not be delivered in time or is not meeting specifications. Subsequently I would spend the saved money on C-17s. From a contract point of view this would even be possible ...

Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
Right now the only US airplane on order is the Global Hawk and the Luftwaffe is also looking at the Predator UAV.

There was an official reply to a minor inquiry by the FDP party to this, where a MOD secretary said the Predator was found to be "factually" able to meet the requirements, while the IAI Heron TP was found to be "basically" up to reqs. The tendering process is already quite progressed and that is why he refused to give any detailed information on evaluation results. Final procurement decision is slated for H1/2009.

Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
The only US made aircraft that in the running right now are the H-92 for the Navy and as a CSAR helicopter for the Luftwaffe as well as the CH 53K.

I knew about the navy considering the H-92, but not the air force thinking about it for CSAR application.

Concerning CH-53K I did not hear that is was considered for any application (yet). It was only acknowledged as an replacement for the CH-53G, but nothing concrete ... There were rumors about this "European HTH concept" project (which is non-sense right from the beginning.)

Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
Sikorsky was asked to make an offer on these three helicopters this May but I have not heard nothing since then.
Maybe in another 10 years when the P-3 needs to be retired we will look at the P-8 but I guess the next MPA will either be unmanned or an A32x.

As the P-3C is not used (and crews not trained!) for offensive operations, there is no doubt it will be replaced by an UAV (either armed or not armed). The irony in this is that the P-3C has by far the highest (theoretical) number of weapons systems integrated of all German aircrafts. The only weapon readilly available are Mk46 torpedoes, which are slowly leaving the fleet now (replaced by MU90s, but which are not integrated in the P-3).
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:26 pm

What about the Ukrainian AN-70? AFAIK, the performance is very similar to the A400M, it has been designed to accept western technology (avionics, engines) and has already been flying years ago. The Luftwaffe considered it, but the french and Airbus told them that theywould have to pay loads of compensations if they would cancel the A400M contracts.
Also, what does stop Airbus from fitting a similarlysized PW engine if Rolls Royce don't get their heads out of their collective @rses? Sure, it would mean some redesign of the engine to wing attachment points, but it should be possible.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
columba
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RE: Would The Luftwaffe Buy American Aircrafts?

Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:23 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 42):
Also, what does stop Airbus from fitting a similarlysized PW engine if Rolls Royce don't get their heads out of their collective @rses? Sure, it would mean some redesign of the engine to wing attachment points, but it should be possible.

Reminds me on the A340 engine issue.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong

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