A340Spotter
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B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:43 am

Article below from local news..

http://www.kuam.com/news/26596.aspx

JSD
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
 
Areopagus
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:48 am

That's as bad as losing a ship, except for the number of lives at stake.
 
connies4ever
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:50 am

It's great news to pilots are (apparently) OK.

Not to mock the situation, but I've often wondered what it would be like to have to go to the CO's office
after having 'bent' a $1.2B a/c .  Wow!

It also has to be said we have absolutely no idea what caused this.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Venus6971
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:38 am

That was always the knock on a acft so expensive, with the upcoming accident investigation board I bet the air and mx crew will wish they could have died along with the acft with anal probing they are about to get.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
co777er
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:32 am

I bet the crew was reluctant to pull the "Oh Shit" handles under their seats and getting ejected out of that thing.
 
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cpd
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:20 am



Quoting CO777ER (Reply 4):
I bet the crew was reluctant to pull the "Oh Shit" handles under their seats and getting ejected out of that thing.

I can imagine - they will get a grilling they'll never forget. We can only hope for their sake it was an aircraft fault.
 
Jawed
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:11 am

Remember that WE are the ones paying for this aircraft (and all their other aircraft for that matter). Our good old tax dollars at work.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:47 am

I believe this is the first loss of a B-2. It is also the first loss of a 509th BW airplane since an FB-111A crash in Portsmouth, NH in 1978, 30 years ago.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:56 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
believe this is the first loss of a B-2

You believed correctly. Of the 21 B-2s built, this is the first loss, and hopefully the last.
At a billion bucks a bomber, us taxpayers can't afford to lose more.
Anyone here have a serial number on the downed bird yet?
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
sasd209
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:05 am



Quoting Jawed (Reply 6):
Remember that WE are the ones paying for this aircraft (and all their other aircraft for that matter). Our good old tax dollars at work.

Yes the economic cost is a bit much. I think some may be missing the point here: 2 pilots ejecting safely = priceless.

We can build more bombers; I'm glad the crew is safe.

SASD209
 
Flighty
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:18 am

On behalf of the American people I say "glad you are alive, pilots."

On behalf of the American taxpayers I am saying "Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh God. Nooooooooooo."
 
 
A350
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:00 pm



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
... after having 'bent' a $1.2B a/c

I always wonder what this sum actually means: does the production of one B-2 cost 1.2 B $, or is the overall cost of the program 21 x 1.2 Billion $?

A350
 
Blackprojects
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:05 pm

Its $1.2 Billion for Each machine so its a heavy duty loss to the US.
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:09 pm

1.2 Billion PER aircraft....
 
Alessandro
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:11 pm

4 B2s where suppose to take off according to Swedish media, first made it, second crashed on take-off, one pilot still in
hospital for his injuries and one has been released.
Pic from the crash here, http://gfx.aftonbladet.se/multimedia...49/stealth-kollage-kra_549657w.jpg
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Venus6971
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:11 pm

This is worse than losing an E-3 or RC-135 due to the cost of the acft, thank God that the egress boys did there job well with to live crew members to find out what happened, this is like losing a Aircraft Carrier. I bet everybody involved with this program is sick to their stomach, I been retired since 2003 and I am sick to my stomach..
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Alessandro
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:17 pm

This link claim total cost of programme, 44 billion US$ (1997), http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad97181.htm
So basically 2,2 billion US$ each.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
TheSonntag
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:34 pm

It is an airplane. Planes can crash, thats life. Aren't mishap rates calculated into military plane programmes? Probably it was planned to lose less than 1 plane, but this can happen. Most important thing is that the crew has survived.
 
aerosol
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:36 pm



Quoting Jawed (Reply 6):
Remember that WE are the ones paying for this aircraft (and all their other aircraft for that matter). Our good old tax dollars at work.

I remember the quote that the b2 is more worth than its own weight in Gold!
 
connies4ever
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:48 pm



Quoting A350 (Reply 12):

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
... after having 'bent' a $1.2B a/c

I always wonder what this sum actually means: does the production of one B-2 cost 1.2 B $, or is the overall cost of the program 21 x 1.2 Billion $?

A350

I think that's the 'fly away' cost of each a/c as it comes off the line. The R&D cost is not included in this number.

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
This link claim total cost of programme, 44 billion US$ (1997), http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad97181.htm
So basically 2,2 billion US$ each.

Tend to agree more or less with above, I know the US sank an _enormous_ amount of money in upfront R&D to develop both the material for the a/c and the continuously-varying surface design to make it nearly (but not totally) stealthy -- at least as far as ground-based current technology radars are concerned. I can't think of how many design iterations there must have been.

So maybe $20B for R&D, somewhat more than $20B for production.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
zanl188
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:00 pm



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 18):
Aren't mishap rates calculated into military plane programmes? Probably it was planned to lose less than 1 plane, but this can happen.

Attrition is generally factored into military aircraft buys & requirements studies, but given the cost of the B-2 program I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't accounted for in this case.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
dragon6172
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:31 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 21):
Attrition is generally factored into military aircraft buys & requirements studies, but given the cost of the B-2 program I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't accounted for in this case.

Original procurement was for 135 airframes, then reduced to 75, and finally to 20 by 1992. They decided to refurbish the test aircraft to make a total of 21... so I suppose that would be the attrition aircraft! Obviously with the larger numbers its easier to see how attrition rates can be factored, but with just 20 aircraft...basically you are hoping you dont lose any.
Phrogs Phorever
 
acw367
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:56 pm

Taking cost aside, simple arithmetic - 1 hull loss from 135 planes is 0.70%. I hull loss from 21 frames is 4.75%. Therefore in a world where military airfleets are capability lead. Losing 4.75% of your military capability is a hard hit.
 
zanl188
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:01 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 22):
Original procurement was for 135 airframes, then reduced to 75, and finally to 20 by 1992. They decided to refurbish the test aircraft to make a total of 21... so I suppose that would be the attrition aircraft! Obviously with the larger numbers its easier to see how attrition rates can be factored, but with just 20 aircraft...basically you are hoping you dont lose any.

Concur.

Also with most aircraft development programs the manufacturer really doesn't figure out how to build the aircraft until they get a couple of dozen, or more, aircraft out the door (A380, 787, Shuttle, C-5, & C-17 come to mind). With such a small production run to say that each B-2 costs $1.2B is probably a real WAG regardless of who says it. $1.2B isn't a replacement cost because there is no production line for replacements( and if there were the price would need to account for inflation), and it isn't a flyaway cost because each one of the 21 was handbuilt to different block or production specs.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
TaromA380
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:34 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 24):
there is no production line for replacements

What if there will be other losses, in time ? (I hope not) Could the production line be restarted ?
 
zanl188
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:43 pm



Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 25):
Could the production line be restarted ?

Probably, but the costs would surely far out strip the $1.2B quoted. The lost B-2 is literally priceless....
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
jgarrido
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:53 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 15):
4 B2s where suppose to take off according to Swedish media, first made it, second crashed on take-off,

There were 2 flights of 2 scheduled to take off yesterday. The lead of the first flight took off fine, it was his wingman who crashed. They closed the airport right after the incident and only the lead was allowed to land.
 
Oroka
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:58 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 26):
Probably, but the costs would surely far out strip the $1.2B quoted. The lost B-2 is literally priceless....

It doubt it would cost 1.2b to restart the line. The B-2 was state of the art in the 80s, the cost of RAM and other associated materials have undoubtly come down in the last 20 years.

IMO the B-2 was a waste of money. Good bomber, sure, but if it is too expensive to fly into a combat zone, what is the point? The B-2 is being used in a role the B-52 can easily do. Bombers do not go into high risk airspace, but that is what the B-2 was ment to do. Go in, not be seen and bomb the ass off of some Ruskies. Now they are planning a new bomber program, which will cost oodles of money to get proably the same capacity of the B-52.

My suggestion. Build a huge vault for the B-2s and lock them away for safe keeping. Design a unmanned B-52 based platform, newer engines, and maybe a bit faster. Build lots, and cheaply, and open platformed (ie can easily swap out a bomb carriage for a recon package).
 
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Devilfish
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:08 pm



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
Not to mock the situation, but I've often wondered what it would be like to have to go to the CO's office after having 'bent' a $1.2B a/c .

Equally intriguing would be the CO's predicament when he faces his superiors.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 3):
with the upcoming accident investigation board I bet the air and mx crew will wish they could have died along with the acft with anal probing they are about to get.

I wonder what the CO would wish for.

Quoting Cpd (Reply 5):

I can imagine - they will get a grilling they'll never forget. We can only hope for their sake it was an aircraft fault.

Would a senior officer's grilling be any less severe? It could be argued that an aircraft fault was still within his cognizance.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ThePalauan
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:23 pm

It's a relief to know the pilots are still alive.

I went to Andersen about a good three hours after the incident (I didn't even know it had occured) and apparently there wasn't any smoke so I couldn't see a wreckage site of any sort. However, it looked like movements on the tarmac and sorties were suspended and other incoming aircraft were diverted to GUM. When I passed by the commercial airport, I spotted 2-3 707s and 1 C-5 parked by the CS hangers on the opposite side of the field.

Funny how just a short while ago we had the Navy pilots ditching their aircraft just outside of ROP. Now this happens... Co-inky-dink, I guess...
You can take the boy out of the island, but not the island out of the boy!
 
zanl188
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:33 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 28):
It doubt it would cost 1.2b to restart the line. The B-2 was state of the art in the 80s, the cost of RAM and other associated materials have undoubtly come down in the last 20 years.

To restart it and build one replacement B-2? You must be joking....
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
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zeke
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:40 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 17):
This link claim total cost of programme, 44 billion US$ (1997), http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad97181.htm
So basically 2,2 billion US$ each

I think the total program cost was about that, the aircraft were about 1/3 of that.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
TheSonntag
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:46 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 28):
The B-2 is being used in a role the B-52 can easily do. Bombers do not go into high risk airspace, but that is what the B-2 was ment to do.

It was used in the Kosovo Campaign in 1999, and proved to be rather useful there bombing strategic targets. However, it still remains questionable whether you could actually achieve the same with some other stealth fighter aircraft at a fraction of the cost.

Maybe a stupid question, but are military aircraft insured against mishaps? I do not know whether insurance companies would take the risk, though.
 
zanl188
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:48 pm



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 33):
are military aircraft insured against mishaps?

Premiums would be outrageous. US Gov't is self insured.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
checksixx
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:51 pm

R&D costs are never factored in when talking about aircraft cost. This was a tactic brought into play by F-22 opponents. The thing to concentrate on here is that the pilots got out safely and the incident was contained on base. Hopefully, investigation reveals a clear cause so that future operations can be performed safely.
 
aileron11
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:06 pm

I wonder if they will ground the fleet until they find out what happened? Think about, they had 21 now 20, because they only had 21 they need to make sure they dont loose any more because you cant make phone call and say give 5 more.
Jersey Lou
 
Spacepope
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 32):
I think the total program cost was about that, the aircraft were about 1/3 of that.

The "actual" cost to build each aircraft was closer to $400 million, which compared to the F-22 isn't that bad of a deal. All tooling is still around, restarting the line for, say, 20 more airframes is possible and would drop the overall unit price substantially.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
zanl188
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:30 pm



Quoting Aileron11 (Reply 36):
I wonder if they will ground the fleet until they find out what happened?

Depends on what caused the accident... If say it was a birdstrike they'll probably clear the aircraft quickly and resume operations. Crew was able to eject so they must have some idea of what was wrong. Between the crew interview and any recorders I bet ACC already has a general idea of what happened.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:02 pm

This is a real heart breaker, for those of us who are fascinated with the B-2 and it's technologies. At anywhere from $400M to $1.2B per copy, depending on which source you wish to believe, it's been correctly described as a National Asset. The loss of this aircraft will have far reaching effects on the Air Force. I would find it hard to believe that the possibility of a loss of even one airframe would not be factored in during the program's development. There must be some kind of backup plan to replace the lost aircraft. FOX news is already reporting the cost of the aircraft replacement, which may or may not ever happen.

I guess the Air Force may even consider bringing some B-1s out of mothball.

Quoting Jawed (Reply 6):
Our good old tax dollars at work.

Something I personally didn't mind paying for. Better then some of the "  dollarsign   dollarsign   dollarsign  down the toilet, giving someone U.S taxpayer-provided job for life" programs I've personally have had the unfortunate circumstance to have witnessed.

[Edited 2008-02-23 10:24:43]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
Curt22
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:32 pm



Quoting SASD209 (Reply 9):
We can build more bombers; I'm glad the crew is safe.

Actually...would be less expensive to lose the crew and preserve the aircraft at a billion dollars per copy!
 
checksixx
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:32 pm

Lets not get carried away with cost. Factually, the listed airframe cost the Air Force provides is almost right on at just over $1.1 Billion flyaway.
 
L-188
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:22 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 28):
My suggestion. Build a huge vault for the B-2s and lock them away for safe keeping. Design a unmanned B-52 based platform, newer engines, and maybe a bit faster. Build lots, and cheaply, and open platformed (ie can easily swap out a bomb carriage for a recon package).

You must be a Diffenbaker admirer.

This is the same thinking that killed the CF-105 Arrow and replaced it with that turd, the BOMARC missile!

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 39):
I guess the Air Force may even consider bringing some B-1s out of mothball.

You know what would be a great program, a C model of B-1 that replaces the swing with that "Cranked Arrow" design that was tested on the F-16XL.

It will never happen of course.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
RacingGreen07
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:33 pm

Ok so who picks up the tab?

Tax paying americans? Or an Insurance company? Or someone else?

Regards!
A dream worth having is a dream worth pursuing- August Horch- Founder of Audi AG
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:42 pm



Quoting RacingGreen07 (Reply 43):
Tax paying americans? Or an Insurance company? Or someone else?

It'll be the U.S. taxpayer.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:47 pm

Oh, lord! This has to be the most expensive single-aircraft crash ever! I have to say I wondered a few times about what would be like if one of those B-2 went down, since it first rolled out... I even thought if crews may have to undergo some special training to overcome the stress of combat-flying a 1.2 billion dollar jet... the cost is insane!
As for the aircraft itself, well... of course it is somehow a cold-war relic and the purpose for what it was designed at first does not longer exist, sure the tasks for what it is used now could be carried out by more conventional and far less expensive bombers but, still I see at least one reason for the B-2 to exist an that is deterrence. I mean that the aircraft is a stealth strategic bomber and the message it sends is "we can dump a nuke on your head before you can even think of retaliating or even see us", this may be true or false who knows but, as long as the actual capabilities of the machine are kept classified, an opponent may well consider this as a factor, and this seems a huge strategic achievement to me. Just my opinion, of course.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
planewasted
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:59 pm

If the plane was worth 1.2B$ it's an equivalent of about four brand new A380! Expensive crash indeed.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:05 pm



Quoting PlaneWasted (Reply 46):
If the plane was worth 1.2B$ it's an equivalent of about four brand new A380! Expensive crash indeed.

That's gotta be the first time I've ever seen the B-2 and the A380 mentioned in the same sentence!  Wow!  Wink
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
dl021
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:31 pm

Thank God the crew ejected and is alive. It's a terrible shame to lose the airframe, and it does reduce our capability in that department by more than 5% when you think that we don't keep them all actively configured at once. I think that no more than 16 are active at any given time.

I hope they give the go ahead to the F-22 expansion.....
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: B-2 Down Off Of Andersen AFB Guam

Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:35 pm

Any word at all as to which particular B-2 crashed?
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.

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