epten
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Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:56 am

Tight turns, IR guided missiles, guns, heavy g-loads, steep climbs and all that... What do you think, which of the current fighter aircraft seems to be best at it? Let's, for a moment, forget about stealthiness and BWR engagements. It's a clear day with beautiful weather. If you were to choose an aircraft for a close 1 on 1 engagement, which would it be?

MiG-29OVT?
Su-30?
F-22?
Typhoon?
 
A320ajm
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:18 am

I *think* the F22 would be the best, due to all the secrecy around it, and i believe it has the latest technology e.g. the best stealth system. I think the Eurofighter would have a good chance as well.
Feel free to criticise!
Regards
A320ajm
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
 
epten
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:34 am



Quoting A320ajm (Reply 1):
I *think* the F22 would be the best, due to all the secrecy around it, and i believe it has the latest technology e.g. the best stealth system.

On a clear day within visual range radar invisibility is is not much of an advantage. Guns don't care about the RCS.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:52 am

There are also some older ones that can hold their own in a dogfight.
A lot of them are flown by very experienced (2000 hrs+) pilots that can get the full potential out of their airplane.
I'm thinking about
-F16
-M2000 (late models)
-Harrier (only with real TVC)
-F15

As for the new fighters I would take the EF, F22, Rafale, they seem to be the top dogs in this discipline for a long time to come.
[edit post]
 
checksixx
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:18 pm

I'd take the F-22A. If that wasn't available, then I'd go for the Eurofighter. Its has though, already been proven that its difficult to lock on an IR missile unless your right behind the Raptor.

I'm only going with the F-22A because of its excess power and maneuverability edge...not stealth reasons...the thread starter clearly ruled out a BVR situation in this case.
 
fvtu134
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:03 pm

Why does everybody here forget about the SU-27 Series (mainly -30/-35). When stealthiness is out of the picture and pure aerodynamics come into play I doubt many F-15 and even F-22 drivers would be happy to be up against a Flanker.

They can win in the electronics department (although that gap is not as big as it used to be) but when it's within visual range the Flanker has a lot of potential.

Just my two cents
who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
 
checksixx
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 5):
Why does everybody here forget about the SU-27 Series (mainly -30/-35).

Well I didn't forget them, just wouldn't want to be in one. Not sure about the Typhoon, but they certainly wouldn't hold any special advantage over the Raptor maneuverability wise. Course, they can sling a lot more missiles though...
 
highlander0
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:07 pm



Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 5):
SU-27

Well, maybe (not likely to happen) some RAF Typhoon pilots could let us know what went down when the IAF came over to the UK?

 Big grin  Big grin  Big grin
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:12 pm

I would say Typhoon and latest Flanker with 3d Thrust Vector Control
 
A320ajm
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 7):
Well, maybe (not likely to happen) some RAF Typhoon pilots could let us know what went down when the IAF came over to the UK

Thats a low blow to the Russians, but funny  biggrin 
LMAO
A320ajm
If the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will still say, 'This was their finest hour.'
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:52 pm

MiG-29OVT with a decent HMS would take a lot of beating, 1 v 1.

Once Typhoon's helmet is operational, it will be a very formidable WVR aeroplane, but until then aircraft with thrust vectoring will present a real challenge, especially if they have a helmet.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
Once Typhoon's helmet is operational, it will be a very formidable WVR aeroplane, but until then aircraft with thrust vectoring will present a real challenge, especially if they have a helmet.

Well, the AIM-9X was originally designed with the F-22 and it's small shoulder bays in mind. If I'm not mistaken, the plan is to eventually equip the Raptor with an HMD system a la the F-35. The F-35 isn't even being built with a HUD in favor of the HMD.
I agree with Checksixx, BTW. A fact that's often lost is that the Raptor was also designed with IR cross section in mind. The composite skin just won't conduct heat like metal will. The best hope with the Raptor is that you sneak up behind him with IRST and get a lucky shot, not likely with modern AWACS in the battle.
I think with the way things are shaking out in the world, we probably won't have to wait more than ten years to find out for sure. Everyone and their brother are buying SUs and MiGs nowadays.  Smile
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baron95
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:44 am

You can't say which is best unless you clearly define the scenario objectives and the rules of engagement. Fighter pilots don't just go into a furball for nothing - they are trying to accomplish something.

For example, if it is just an air superiority/attrition campaing, then the F22 would just supercruise away and re engage BVR or WVR using stealth. If on the other hand it is defending a high value target (e.g. a fleet of tankers or an AWACS) against a single intruder, then it will be a single head-on pass with several missiles launched by the Raptor (and probably the adversary) as soon as they are within missile parameters; in which case turn performance means nothing. The intruder would die and the Raptor would probably also be destroyed.

So you need to postulate a scenario if you want to judge aircraft performance. In any case, in the age of AIM9x and the like, all of the planes mentioned here that got within visual range of one another with both pilots having tally-ho would result in both planes lost most of the time. I launch mine and before mine get to you you launch yours. Mine get you. Yours get me.
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Acheron
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:57 am

Su-35.

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 9):
Thats a low blow to the Russians, but funny

Why?. The results are not going to be published, and pretty much anything else, most likely than not, will be speculation or assumptions.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:52 am



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):

I agree but again, with modern AWACS in the mix, there's little chance those adversaries will get anywhere near a high-value asset like a tanker. They'd likely get picked up at several times the distance of their weapons range and have a pack of Raptors on them like bears on honey.
You made another good point, the Raptor's range and supercruise ability. They could just make the enemy chase them around the sky until they're bingo.  Smile
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checksixx
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:12 pm



Quoting Mciguy (Reply 11):
Well, the AIM-9X was originally designed with the F-22 and it's small shoulder bays in mind.

Got a source for that? AIM-9X was never planned for F-22 integration...still isn't as far as I know. Did I let some news slip by me?
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:43 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 15):
Got a source for that? AIM-9X was never planned for F-22 integration...still isn't as far as I know. Did I let some news slip by me?



Quote:
Meanwhile, the Air Force was pursuing a parallel effort to develop a compressed carriage version of Sidewinder for the F-22 called Boxoffice.



Quote:
The wings and fins of the AIM-9X are much smaller to accommodate two each per side bay in the F-22 Raptor as originally planned, AIM-9X control surfaces are reversed from earlier Sidewinders with the control section located in the rear, while the wings up front provide stability.

Link

Quote:
A high priority is the introduction of AIM-9X short range heat-seeking air-to-air missiles. Although the Raptor has provisions for two AIM-9X missiles carried in the side weapons bay, they were not integrated yet into the system, as the Raptor relies on six AMRAAM missiles used primarily for BVR kills. When the Sidewinders will be included, pilots may reconsider the use of helmet mounted cueing system (JHMCS) which hasn't been included in the current avionics suite.

Link

Quote:
It is to be carried on all U.S. fighter aircraft, including the F-22.

Link



PS> The Raptor is especially steathy in the head-on aspect. If reports are to be believed, simply lauching a bunch of BVR radar missiles at it head-on would be all but futile.  Smile

[Edited 2008-03-25 06:45:03]
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baroque
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:29 pm



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
if it is just an air superiority/attrition campaing, then the F22 would just supercruise away and re engage

Well it could super cruise away from a Harrier (although not its missiles) but it is not going to get away from a Typhoon all that quickly?
 
checksixx
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:35 pm

MCI...yeah, I've seen all of those...nothing official though. AIM-9X was not in the works for the Raptor and as of late, still isn't. Neither is any type of HMD/CS. There isn't any double launcher for the side bays either. Would like to see it integrate eventually though...
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:04 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 18):
...nothing official though.

Yeah, some of those sources could be questioned, but the one link was to a GAO report.  Smile
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:40 am

Pfffff... you silly fixed wing pilots, talking about who will kill who in a dogfight!

My comrades and I, will swat both of you out of the sky with our glorious surface to air missiles, the most advanced in the world!

While you foolishly dogfight, we will destroy your imperialist aircraft from high altitude with our S-300/SA-20 Gargoyle!
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random%201/48N6E-5P58TE-3-S.jpg

And if you capitalist pigs attempt to dive, we will snarl you in our glorious trap, using our TOR-M1s!


Signed,

Fatherland Russia & Weapon Sales Customers!
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:11 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
Fatherland Russia & Weapon Sales Customers!

Russia is usually referred to as "the Motherland"

happy birthday MCIguy!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:38 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 21):
Russia is usually referred to as "the Motherland"

No need to crush the mood!!!

I was not terribly concerned with exact details.... seeing as the post itself was simply intended to be light-hearted!

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:45 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
I was not terribly concerned with exact details.... seeing as the post itself was simply intended to be light-hearted!

so how would you see my post then? terribly serious?
 
epten
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:13 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 4):
I'm only going with the F-22A because of its excess power and maneuverability

I wonder if it is F-22 or EF with fuel for equal time of fighting with the higher t/w ratio.

As for the maneuverability - if wikipedia articles are correct, EF seems to have lower wing loading than F-22. Wouldn't that automatically mean tighter turns and broader flight envelope? Just asking here, not sure myself: if lower wing loading equals tighter turn.

Also, I suspect that most of the time canards can have the same effect on the flight envelope as vectored thrust, especially 1D as found in F-22. EF has canards (big ones!).

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
Once Typhoon's helmet is operational, it will be a very formidable WVR aeroplane, but until then aircraft with thrust vectoring will present a real challenge, especially if they have a helmet.

Doesn't the EF have HMS already?

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
You can't say which is best unless you clearly define the scenario objectives and the rules of engagement. Fighter pilots don't just go into a furball for nothing - they are trying to accomplish something.

That's an exellent point. I'll try explaining what I meant when I asked "Which is currently the best dogfighter".

Let's imagine that dogfighting is a sport. The rules are simple: both aircrafta meet at a certain point at 10000 ft from oposite directions at speed of 300 knots. They pass each other closely and from then on everything is allowed (guns, hms, missiles...). No awacs, no ground support, no ground fire. Flat ocean/desert, just two armed fighters. Pilots are equaly proficient/trained/physically tough.

My bet, at the end of the day, after taking everything in consideration, goes to EF, with Sukhois and Raptors very, very close behind. It has the lowest wing loading, auto trigger, superior (considering ballistics) cannon, climbs like hell, ASRAAM (90 degrees sensor) and burns least fuel compared to others (will last longer).

On the other hand I might be wrong of course.

[Edited 2008-03-26 05:15:33]
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:01 pm



Quoting Epten (Reply 24):
My bet, at the end of the day, after taking everything in consideration, goes to EF, with Sukhois and Raptors very, very close behind. It has the lowest wing loading, auto trigger, superior (considering ballistics) cannon, climbs like hell, ASRAAM (90 degrees sensor) and burns least fuel compared to others (will last longer).

I fully agree with your analysis. I think the Raptor might even be a little further down, compared to the Sukhoi.
 
checksixx
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:53 pm



Quoting Epten (Reply 24):
I wonder if it is F-22 or EF with fuel for equal time of fighting with the higher t/w ratio.

You'll have to keep wondering, the actual numbers for the Raptor are classified.

Quoting Epten (Reply 24):
As for the maneuverability - if wikipedia articles are correct, EF seems to have lower wing loading than F-22. Wouldn't that automatically mean tighter turns and broader flight envelope?

Nope, not always. Different systems in play here. The way the Raptor is set up is so that when the pilot ask's the jet to do something, it uses everything available to do whats asked of it. Meaning not only using vectored thrust, if necessary, but also all the control surfaces. Eurofighter is not the same. The SU family would be very scary if they had that ability...they currently do not. Control is the name of the game...keep the nose of my jet pointed where I want it regardless of what the aircraft is doing or how its flying. SU series can pull a great maneuver, but they are instantly into a recovery only situation.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25):
I fully agree with your analysis. I think the Raptor might even be a little further down, compared to the Sukhoi.

See above.
 
epten
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:01 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 26):
The way the Raptor is set up is so that when the pilot ask's the jet to do something, it uses everything available to do whats asked of it. Meaning not only using vectored thrust, if necessary, but also all the control surfaces.

I'am pretty sure that the same goes for EF too. Pilot doesn't have the control of the control surfaces. All decisions are made by the computer. Very bizare control surface configurations are indeed possible on EF too.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:30 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 26):
You'll have to keep wondering, the actual numbers for the Raptor are classified.

the total area is available and I believe the weight is also not far off. So wing loading is not really that classified

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 26):
Nope, not always. Different systems in play here. The way the Raptor is set up is so that when the pilot ask's the jet to do something, it uses everything available to do whats asked of it. Meaning not only using vectored thrust, if necessary, but also all the control surfaces. Eurofighter is not the same. The SU family would be very scary if they had that ability...they currently do not. Control is the name of the game...keep the nose of my jet pointed where I want it regardless of what the aircraft is doing or how its flying. SU series can pull a great maneuver, but they are instantly into a recovery only situation.

EF has the most advanced artificial control system available today. Considering the aerodynamic optimized form of EF (unlike the F-22 where stealth drives the geometry) it has the edge in a knife fight. There is no aircraft more aerodynamically unstable then the EF flying today.

As far as the SU's are concerned: what you are saying is simply untrue. The latest SU's (and MiG's) have fully 3D vector control, much more advanced then on the F-22 and are in complete controlled flight during those manoeuvres.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:31 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 26):
You'll have to keep wondering, the actual numbers for the Raptor are classified.

Ever thought that that might be because the numbers might show the raptor is a bit expensive for what you get?

Personally I go for the Typhoon because it can turn quicker because of its lower wing loading (if indeed it is, just taking the previous posters info)

Fred
Image
 
baron95
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:23 pm



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 14):
I agree but again, with modern AWACS in the mix, there's little chance those adversaries will get anywhere near a high-value asset like a tanker.

You are kidding right? One of the top missions the Raptors are flying in mock up combat is taking out the AWACS. AFAIK the AWACS are picking up the head-on attacking Raptor flying at altitude at 30nm. That is well, well into the no scape zone of a Slammer D shot at a 707/767-based AWACS.
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MCIGuy
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:40 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 30):
You are kidding right? One of the top missions the Raptors are flying in mock up combat is taking out the AWACS. AFAIK the AWACS are picking up the head-on attacking Raptor flying at altitude at 30nm. That is well, well into the no scape zone of a Slammer D shot at a 707/767-based AWACS.

Sure, I won't argue with that, but aren't we comparing apples to coconuts? I can't see a scenario where our tankers would be attacked by F-22s, can you? I think it's fantastic that the Raptor can get within 30 nm before being detected. I can't see any other modern fighter doing that. A MiG or SU will likely light up screens at several times that range.

[Edited 2008-03-26 13:49:31]
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baron95
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:51 pm



Quoting Epten (Reply 24):
That's an exellent point. I'll try explaining what I meant when I asked "Which is currently the best dogfighter".

Let's imagine that dogfighting is a sport. The rules are simple: both aircrafta meet at a certain point at 10000 ft from oposite directions at speed of 300 knots. They pass each other closely and from then on everything is allowed (guns, hms, missiles...). No awacs, no ground support, no ground fire. Flat ocean/desert, just two armed fighters. Pilots are equaly proficient/trained/physically tough.

So long as we all agree that this is not a realistic war scenario, I'll play along (by the way could you define the weapons? Can I assume AIM9x and Slammer Ds for the F22? I'll use that for this, as I like those weaons).

So we have two fighters at 10K feet that just passed one another, sent good bye kisses and then had a change or heart and decided that they need to kill one another. They are now diverging at 600 knots which is Mach one - so for each second the fighters are 1nm away. If I am the Raptor pilot, I go to full burners to accelerate away with a relatively slow climbing turn to one side or another. I would keep that for the estimate time for the opsing fighter to reverse course and be capable of tracking me on IR or radar - say 15 seconds. Lets say that during that manouver, the Raptor accelerating to M2.0 and the oposing fighter reversing course, the average diversion rate is M2.0 - that means that by the time the oposing fighter turns into the Raptor, the planes are now 30nm appart, clearly beyond visual range. Just before the 15 seconds is up, I'd go burners off complete my turn into the expected target position fire 1 Slammer D use my EASA radar to get a find/lock on target, issue a mid-range correction to Slammer D, change heading to head to the target at supercruise M1.5+ launch 2 more Slammer Ds in rapid succession.

So, I don't care if you are a Typhoon or SU. If you turned into me, you will die. If you turned away from me I will chase you at supercruise until you exhust your fuel in your afterburner dash, and I will kill you.

Continuing the scenario, after firing the 3 Slammer Ds, I'd again turn away from you with full ECM on, at M1.5 supercruise. After a while I turn in again to look for you. If for some miracle you haven't been destroyed, I'll re-engage you with head-on stealth tactics again.

There is no way the Typhoon or SU can escape from a Stealthier fighter with M1.5+ supercruise and Slammer Ds on one-on-one. Just no way. It does not matter if you start at the same point in space like you said. In 4 seconds the fighter are out of visual range. Then it is all about IR/Radar Signature, sustainable speed, electronics and range of radar guided weapons.

The best, best scenario is that while I was pointed at the oposing fighter, it also detected me (unlikely until the Typhoon or SU sport a powerful EASA radar), launched a salvo of misiles, stayed alive long enough to provide updated guidance, and the missiles were able to lock on to the Raptor throughout evasive manouvers and ECM and managed to detonate near the Raptor, in which case both fighters are dead.

Fo all of those thinking it is even a close match between a Raptor and a EF or SU, you are deluding yourselves. Don't try to make it a horse race. the race was won before it even began.

If anyone doubts that, give me the scenario that has the EF or SU shooting down the Raptor and escaping intact.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
checksixx
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:27 pm



Quoting Epten (Reply 27):
I'am pretty sure that the same goes for EF too. Pilot doesn't have the control of the control surfaces. All decisions are made by the computer. Very bizare control surface configurations are indeed possible on EF too.

I disagree...show me one example.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
EF has the most advanced artificial control system available today. Considering the aerodynamic optimized form of EF (unlike the F-22 where stealth drives the geometry) it has the edge in a knife fight. There is no aircraft more aerodynamically unstable then the EF flying today.

Who care's, were not talking stability.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
As far as the SU's are concerned: what you are saying is simply untrue. The latest SU's (and MiG's) have fully 3D vector control, much more advanced then on the F-22 and are in complete controlled flight during those manoeuvres.

Nope, they are not in complete control. When they begin them, yes, but not once the maneuver has been started. At that point they are along for the ride until recovery. The day I see a SU type do what the Raptor can, I'll gladly appologize. Fortunately for me, its going to be a long while.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 29):
Ever thought that that might be because the numbers might show the raptor is a bit expensive for what you get?

Who cares...look at what we have! Typhoon isn't cheap either. Look, no one here is going to give up their point. No matter what you think, I'd put the Raptor out on top every time even if it was Chinese.
 
Acheron
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:44 pm



Quoting Epten (Reply 24):
and burns least fuel compared to others (will last longer).

Actually, the latest Su, the Su-35BM, has a lighter airframe and the dorsal airbrake was removed and a new fuel deposit was added, which means even more range for an aircraft that already had a huge range.

As for the ASRAAM, the ruskies are developing a new WVR missile, so lets wait and see what it comes out of it.
 
flyf15
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:41 pm

It really depends on the pilots, the information, the situation, etc.

Heck, in some situations, I'd hate to be dogfighting against an A-10... even in an F-22. Low level, low speed, guns only... the F-22 doesn't have a chance. The A-10 has amazing visibility, phenomenal low speed handling, a gun that makes what is on the F-22 look like a total joke, and an airframe that can take serious damage without being downed.

But, in reality, this would never happen... the F-22 has two trump cards, the ability to never end up in this situation, and if it does, the ability to escape.

All of these top of the line fighters mentioned... F-22, F-35, Eurofighter, Su-27 series, etc are all amazing aircraft. Depending on the situation, any one of them could easily come out on top. Other fighters too all have their niche, it just depends on the situation. In Korea, there were P-51s getting into dogfights with MiG-15s... and winning.


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F27Friendship
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:18 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 33):
Who care's, were not talking stability.

stability has EVERYTHING to do with manoeuvrability. how can you make such bold statements and lack basic knowledge like this?

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 33):
Nope, they are not in complete control. When they begin them, yes, but not once the maneuver has been started. At that point they are along for the ride until recovery. The day I see a SU type do what the Raptor can, I'll gladly appologize. Fortunately for me, its going to be a long while.

just have a look at airshow footage, they are completely in control allright
 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:46 pm



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 32):
They are now diverging at 600 knots which is Mach one - so for each second the fighters are 1nm away. If I am the Raptor pilot, I go to full burners to accelerate away with a relatively slow climbing turn to one side or another. I would keep that for the estimate time for the opsing fighter to reverse course and be capable of tracking me on IR or radar - say 15 seconds. Lets say that during that manouver, the Raptor accelerating to M2.0 and the oposing fighter reversing course, the average diversion rate is M2.0 - that means that by the time the oposing fighter turns into the Raptor, the planes are now 30nm appart, clearly beyond visual range.

Unfortunately your math is off. 600kts is one mile every *six* seconds. An average of 1200kts for 15 seconds works out to 5nm separation.
 
Alien
Posts: 416
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:08 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 36):
stability has EVERYTHING to do with manoeuvrability

Actually, no. In fact instability contributes to maneuverability. That, thrust, size of the control surfaces, ability to create wing vortices via canards or LERX and a whole bunch of other factors.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 36):
they are completely in control allright

Watch an SU-30 then watch a Raptor perform the same maneuver. Note how the two recover.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
EF has the most advanced artificial control system available today.

So says the Eurofighter marketing department.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
I believe the weight is also not far off

The weight is not public knowledge, further how can you compare the two when one carries all of it's fuel and stores internally and the other one does not.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
The latest SU's (and MiG's) have fully 3D vector control, much more advanced then on the F-22 and are in complete controlled flight during those manoeuvres.

The MIGS certainly do not yet have 3D in production. If the Air Force really thought thrust vectoring where the answer it would have been fitted 20 years ago. Do a bit of research. Google F-16VISTA or F-15B Active.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
(unlike the F-22 where stealth drives the geometry)

No it does not on the F-22.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 29):
Ever thought that that might be because the numbers might show the raptor is a bit expensive for what you get?

Latest Typhoon flyaway cost is over 122 million. Raptor 138 million and that is for a much smaller run. Build the Raptor in EF numbers and it is cheaper.

Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 29):
Personally I go for the Typhoon because it can turn quicker because of its lower wing loading (if indeed it is, just taking the previous posters info)

Actually the Typhoon will loose more times than not in WVR for three very good reasons. IR stealth, RF stealth, and weapons/fuel carriage. Ir missiles have difficulty locking on to Raptor due to IR suppression. RF stealth enables the Raptor to see it's adversary first thereby dictating the terms of combat. She can run if she chooses to or maneuver such that it has the advantage going in to the WVR fight. Last all weapons and fuel is carries internally. Typhoon will have to jettison her external fuel tanks so she will have even less fuel to manuever but more important it's weapons are carried externally which are a further detriment to performance. The advantage alone is enough to tilt the odds n the F-22 favor.
 
pelican
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:54 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
Latest Typhoon flyaway cost is over 122 million. Raptor 138 million and that is for a much smaller run. Build the Raptor in EF numbers and it is cheaper.

Where did you get those numbers from? The air force says it's $159.9 million for the raptor.
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=199

The EF is about §100 million and this is only because of the cheap dollar otherwise the difference would be even bigger.

pelican
 
F27Friendship
Posts: 1098
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:11 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
Actually, no. In fact instability contributes to maneuverability. That, thrust, size of the control surfaces, ability to create wing vortices via canards or LERX and a whole bunch of other factors.

that is correct. I never said stability was the only factor, simply pointing out it has a major contribution.

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
The weight is not public knowledge, further how can you compare the two when one carries all of it's fuel and stores internally and the other one does not.

it is irrelevant as it is stealth that has driven this feature. One might argue in general terms that carrying weapons internally instead of on external hardpoints could be an advantage. What you forget to mention is what a "drag" queen the F-22 is, with it's horizontal stabilizers about the size of an F-16 wing. The amount of wetted area is enormous. Luckily it has very powerful engines.

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
The MIGS certainly do not yet have 3D in production. If the Air Force really thought thrust vectoring where the answer it would have been fitted 20 years ago. Do a bit of research. Google F-16VISTA or F-15B Active.

I am fully aware of all these developements, and my acquiantance with the topic goes a little bit further than through google I might add. You forgot to mention X-31 BTW.. They do not have them in production but the technology was fist used on SU's and if I recall correctly they ARE flying in service with the Indian Airforce in the SU-30.

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
No it does not on the F-22.

are you suggesting that stealth does not governing the external geometry of the F-22?

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
Latest Typhoon flyaway cost is over 122 million. Raptor 138 million and that is for a much smaller run. Build the Raptor in EF numbers and it is cheaper.

ah, this old comparison. The 122 million for the typhoon IS based on total program cost divided by the amount of frames being ordered. The 138 for the Raptor is not. If you would do just a little bit of research you would find that the actual cost per frame of an F-22 is more in the order of magnitude of 350 M$

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
So says the Eurofighter marketing department.

I don't get my information from the marketing department. I guess that when F-35 enters service it will have the most advanced flight control system

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
Actually the Typhoon will loose more times than not in WVR for three very good reasons. IR stealth, RF stealth, and weapons/fuel carriage. Ir missiles have difficulty locking on to Raptor due to IR suppression. RF stealth enables the Raptor to see it's adversary first thereby dictating the terms of combat. She can run if she chooses to or maneuver such that it has the advantage going in to the WVR fight. Last all weapons and fuel is carries internally. Typhoon will have to jettison her external fuel tanks so she will have even less fuel to manuever but more important it's weapons are carried externally which are a further detriment to performance. The advantage alone is enough to tilt the odds n the F-22 favor.

ah, nice fairytales. You forget to mention that al though the F-22 is a generation ahead of Typhoon, its weapons are a generation behind those that Typhoon will use. It will not be able to hide from an IRIS-T. The Typhoon will ALWAYS outturn the raptor in an old fashion knife fight. It's a simple comparison. Just do the math.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:53 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
are you suggesting that stealth does not governing the external geometry of the F-22?

Exactly what we're suggesting. The F-117 "wobbly goblin" was designed with stealth primarily in mind. It relied heavily on it's FBW just to remain in stable flight. The F-22 was designed as a fighter from the start and we'd learned a lot more about stealth since the Nighthawk, so there was/is much more of a balance.
Another thing boils down to simple geometry. The Raptor has thrust-vectoring and the Typhoon (currently) does not. This means that the Typhoon will bleed much more energy in turns and at a much faster rate. This gives the F-22 a clear advantage every time, all the time. The point is really moot though. Hopefully no Typhoons will end up sold to someone we might end up in a fight with.  

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
You forget to mention that al though the F-22 is a generation ahead of Typhoon, its weapons are a generation behind those that Typhoon will use

You presume much. Slammer D is not your dad's AMRAAM and I'm fully confident the Raptor will end up armed with AIM-9X.

[Edited 2008-03-27 02:56:24]
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
epten
Posts: 190
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:28 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 28):
The latest SU's (and MiG's) have fully 3D vector control

You mean 2D? If the nozzle moves only up/down it moves through one axis, one dimension. If the nozzles move both up/down and left/right, they move in two dimensions (2D).

3D thrust vectoring doesn't exist yet. It would mean that the nozzles also move forwards/backwards. If the 2D vectoring found on SUs is called 3D, then it is a misnomer.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 32):
So long as we all agree that this is not a realistic war scenario, I'll play along

We agree. Thank you.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 32):
(by the way could you define the weapons? Can I assume AIM9x and Slammer Ds for the F22? I'll use that for this, as I like those weaons)

Sure.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 32):
decided that they need to kill one another

Yup, that's the game. One kill - one point. One defeat - minus one point. The jet with most points in 9 fights wins.  Smile

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 32):
They are now diverging at 600 knots which is Mach one - so for each second the fighters are 1nm away. If I am the Raptor pilot, I go to full burners to accelerate away with a relatively slow climbing turn to one side or another. I would keep that for the estimate time for the opsing fighter to reverse course and be capable of tracking me on IR or radar - say 15 seconds. Lets say that during that manouver, the Raptor accelerating to M2.0 and the oposing fighter reversing course, the average diversion rate is M2.0 - that means that by the time the oposing fighter turns into the Raptor, the planes are now 30nm appart, clearly beyond visual range. Just before the 15 seconds is up, I'd go burners off complete my turn into the expected target position fire 1 Slammer D use my EASA radar to get a find/lock on target, issue a mid-range correction to Slammer D, change heading to head to the target at supercruise M1.5+ launch 2 more Slammer Ds in rapid succession.

Yes, but what if EF begins very tight turn immediately after the fighters pass each other? Can the EF flying at 300 knots make a 180 turn in less than - according to your calculations - 15 seconds? Can F-22 do it?

My bet is that the aircraft which makes the turn with a smalller radius will win because her sensors will pick-up something, no matter how faint it is (advanced sensors, real-time bitmapping, blah, blah...). So it really breaks down to which aircraft turns faster while in the limits of the flight envelope. As in good old days. Don't you agree?

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 32):
So, I don't care if you are a Typhoon or SU. If you turned into me, you will die.

What if I turn to you faster than you turn at me?

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 32):
If you turned away from me I will chase you at supercruise until you exhust your fuel in your afterburner dash, and I will kill you.

Why would I turn away from you on the first place? BTW, EF will supercruise as well and her fuel will last longer. But that doesn't really matter since we will be spinning in tight turns chasing each other's tails.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 32):
If anyone doubts that, give me the scenario that has the EF or SU shooting down the Raptor and escaping intact.

Any mountainous region?

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 33):

Quoting Epten (Reply 27):
I'am pretty sure that the same goes for EF too. Pilot doesn't have the control of the control surfaces. All decisions are made by the computer. Very bizare control surface configurations are indeed possible on EF too.

I disagree...show me one example.

Disagree... on what exactly? There are three distinct propositions in what you quoted.

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
Actually, no. In fact instability contributes to maneuverability. That, thrust, size of the control surfaces, ability to create wing vortices via canards or LERX and a whole bunch of other factors.

I agree. Don't you think that EF is superior in exactly those departments?

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 41):
The F-22 was designed as a fighter from the start and we'd learned a lot more about stealth since the Nighthawk, so there was/is much more of a balance.

Are you saying that if F-22 wasn't to be stealthy it would look exactly the same? It seem obvious to me that F-22 design is a tradeover between aerodynamics and RCS/IRS. There are compromises which have to be compensated for through advanced CAD/CAM, engines with excess power, advanced control systems etc...
 
fvtu134
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:11 pm

RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:43 am



Quoting Mciguy (Reply 11):
The best hope with the Raptor is that you sneak up behind him with IRST and get a lucky shot, not likely with modern AWACS in the battle.

I thought that was wat WVR was all about. You may go knife edge, but once you start to turn and burn, it's all about who gets on somebody else's tail.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 12):
the F22 would just supercruise away and re engage

That is very nice, but you still can have a Mach 4 or Mach 6 missile chasing your feathers. Supercruise is nice to get into the fight or to save fuel while going fast, not necessarily nice to get out of one. All depends on the conditions but it is not a guaranteed winner.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 20):
Signed,

Fatherland Russia & Weapon Sales Customers

As subtile as always  Wink

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 26):
You'll have to keep wondering, the actual numbers for the Raptor are classified.

Hehe that could be good or bad  duck 

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
Watch an SU-30 then watch a Raptor perform the same maneuver. Note how the two recover



There's a lot of Su-30/35 maneuvers that I've never seen Raptor pilots even try. I know the Raptor is a great aircraft and that many things are secret, but don't have the illusion that this makes it the best dogfighter around. The secrecy is all about electronics, radar etc... That is the same reason why the Indian Flankers were not allowed to turn on their radars when visiting the UK. Secrecy around their capability. When looking at turning capability only the Raptor is going to be at a disadvantage with its 2D thrust vectoring compared to 3d TV SU-30/35's as well as the 3dTV Typhoons.
who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:55 pm



Quoting Epten (Reply 42):
Are you saying that if F-22 wasn't to be stealthy it would look exactly the same? It seem obvious to me that F-22 design is a tradeover between aerodynamics and RCS/IRS

So are you saying the Raptor is less aerodynamically efficient than say, the F-15? The engines don't make that much more thrust than the F-15's and the Raptor is heavier, and it can supercruise. To me, that translates to higher aerodynamic efficiency. I remember an interview with an engineer on the F-22 program. He said that when they were studying the ATF's stealth aspects early on that they discovered that "it turns out what's good from a stealth standpoint isn't so bad from an aerodynamic standpoint".  Smile

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 43):
I thought that was wat WVR was all about. You may go knife edge, but once you start to turn and burn, it's all about who gets on somebody else's tail.

Sure, fundamentals, but getting on the Raptor's tail without anyone seeing is going to be a prettty diffiicult thing in itself.  Smile
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F27Friendship
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:32 pm



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 41):
xactly what we're suggesting. The F-117 "wobbly goblin" was designed with stealth primarily in mind. It relied heavily on it's FBW just to remain in stable flight. The F-22 was designed as a fighter from the start and we'd learned a lot more about stealth since the Nighthawk, so there was/is much more of a balance.
Another thing boils down to simple geometry. The Raptor has thrust-vectoring and the Typhoon (currently) does not. This means that the Typhoon will bleed much more energy in turns and at a much faster rate. This gives the F-22 a clear advantage every time, all the time. The point is really moot though. Hopefully no Typhoons will end up sold to someone we might end up in a fight with.  

I am afraid you are not quite well informed about how stealth characteristics are and have been determined and how this is/was taken into the design process.

The reason why the nighthawk looks the way it does, is because of lack of computerpower in those days. They could calculate triangles, but not continuous curvature (which was first used in the B2). The fact that the F-22 was designed as a fighter from the start is irrelevant, it was designed as a stealth fighter from the start. This drives the geomtry, which you can see from the way the double curvature radome is designed, shape of the intakes etc. So the difference here is better newer techniques to optimize a geometry for stealth with a smaller aerodynamic penalty. Typhoon has LO measures but those measures are applied on an aerodynamically optimized geometry.

Concerning the thrust vector control on the raptor, it's not that spectecular. The enormous moment arm from Typhoon's canard has a much bigger effect. You can not base your statement that it would bleed more energy faster, on just that. What does is the fact that the F-22 is much bigger and heavier, so the Typhoon clearly has the edge here.

Quoting Epten (Reply 42):
You mean 2D? If the nozzle moves only up/down it moves through one axis, one dimension. If the nozzles move both up/down and left/right, they move in two dimensions (2D).

3D thrust vectoring doesn't exist yet. It would mean that the nozzles also move forwards/backwards. If the 2D vectoring found on SUs is called 3D, then it is a misnomer.

every fighter has 1D thrust ' vector' control, it is called the throttle, so if you are able to do 2 more dimensions you end up with 3D. The Raptor thus has 2D
 
epten
Posts: 190
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:12 am

RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:45 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 45):
every fighter has 1D thrust ' vector' control, it is called the throttle, so if you are able to do 2 more dimensions you end up with 3D. The Raptor thus has 2D

Oh, I see. So the thrust itself is a dimension. Hmm, makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:15 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 45):
The reason why the nighthawk looks the way it does, is because of lack of computerpower in those days. They could calculate triangles, but not continuous curvature (which was first used in the B2). The fact that the F-22 was designed as a fighter from the start is irrelevant, it was designed as a stealth fighter from the start. This drives the geomtry, which you can see from the way the double curvature radome is designed, shape of the intakes etc. So the difference here is better newer techniques to optimize a geometry for stealth with a smaller aerodynamic penalty. Typhoon has LO measures but those measures are applied on an aerodynamically optimized geometry.

All I know is what the Raptor engineer said, that stealth and aerodynamic efficiency aren't mutually exclusive, and I believe they are not. As for thrust vectoring, of course it matters! Planes without it are continuously trying to be pushed out of their turn by engines that point out of the turn, in a straight line. TV control means that the engine thrust is directed into the direction of the turn, thus making it turn tighter faster.
I won't debate this further because obvisouly nothing will convince you that the Typhoon isn't the world's best fighter.
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
checksixx
Posts: 1148
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RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:19 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 36):
stability has EVERYTHING to do with manoeuvrability. how can you make such bold statements and lack basic knowledge like this?

Where did I say it didn't?? I said we wern't talking about it specifically.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 36):
just have a look at airshow footage, they are completely in control allright

The SU's? Nope, they sure are not...sorry, but anyone can see that after a point they are only in a recovery mode.

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
Actually, no. In fact instability contributes to maneuverability.

Well in all fairness to F27 and yourself, your both techically correct.

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
Watch an SU-30 then watch a Raptor perform the same maneuver. Note how the two recover.

At least someone is actually watching, thanks...

Quoting Alien (Reply 38):
No it does not on the F-22.

Again, in fairness to F27...design still plays a part on stealth. Not so much as it used to now that we have advanced coating options, but it still does.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
What you forget to mention is what a "drag" queen the F-22 is, with it's horizontal stabilizers about the size of an F-16 wing.

Not sure how 'draggy' it is, but they often find themselves going faster than they want to be and have to actually slow the jet down...I wouldn't call that a drag queen by any means.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
ah, this old comparison. The 122 million for the typhoon IS based on total program cost divided by the amount of frames being ordered. The 138 for the Raptor is not. If you would do just a little bit of research you would find that the actual cost per frame of an F-22 is more in the order of magnitude of 350 M$

Well your both looking at it from different directions for each aircraft. What your not supposed to do, is calculate in total program cost...your supposed to stick to actual production airframe procurement. This has always been. The best source for Raptor cost would be the actual DoD budget which is publicly available. You'll see the airframe cost fluctuate up and down, but it certainly is not even near $200 Million. Not sure where to get the numbers on Eurofighter though.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
I guess that when F-35 enters service it will have the most advanced flight control system

Advanced flight control systems don't really matter if they don't work when needed. I personally don't care how elaborate they are, as long as they do what they're supposed to do when you need them to.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 40):
The Typhoon will ALWAYS outturn the raptor in an old fashion knife fight.

If they both bank for each other at the same time? Nope. If they Tiffy gets into the turn first, sure...but then again, you could say that for damn near everything flying right now fighter wise.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 41):
This means that the Typhoon will bleed much more energy in turns and at a much faster rate.

True...the Tiffy bleeds energy in turns about as bad as a Mig-29 does...BUT...I'll give it this...the little thing accelerates like a bat out of hell soo.....

Quoting Epten (Reply 42):
BTW, EF will supercruise as well and her fuel will last longer.

Almost completely clean...yes.

Quoting Epten (Reply 42):
Disagree... on what exactly?

Never seen any control surfaces beside the traditional one's at work during any EF display...what am I missing.

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 43):
There's a lot of Su-30/35 maneuvers that I've never seen Raptor pilots even try.

Not that they couldn't, because they have out at flight test...simply many of the SU tricks are simply just tricks and have no technical application or reason.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 45):
Concerning the thrust vector control on the raptor, it's not that spectecular.

Right...not. Open your eyes when you watch the demo. BTW...not only do some of us disagree with you, but many countries disagree with you. Funny we don't hear about countries whining about getting ahold of the Tiffy....they just want Raptors.
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Which Is *currently* The Best WVR Dogfighter?

Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:55 pm



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 37):
Unfortunately your math is off. 600kts is one mile every *six* seconds. An average of 1200kts for 15 seconds works out to 5nm separation.

Hey, thanks for pointing that out. My apologies for the incorrect math - I was rushing the post ;(. I somehow knew that my scenario was too easy for the Raptor  Wink

I guess I'll further correct myself and say that the Raptor would only be 3-5nm away by the time the EF or SU turn into it. I guess it could get interesting in that scenario and be more of a crapshoot between these three fighters.

I guess that the most likely outcome, if they both turn into each other is that both will be destroyed. At that close a range head on both fighters will be within the no escape zone of their missiles. Perhaps the Typhoon has a slight edge because of better AESA radar, better ECM, better electronics on the Slammer Ds. The SU and Typhoom might complete the turn a bit earlier and may have a bit more energy when they launch their missiles. But maybe 9 out 10 times, both planes end up blown out of the skies.

That is why Raptor pilots (and EF and SU) are not likely to fly that way in real combat.
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