CTR
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Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:47 am

Tonight at 10:00 PM Eastern there is Military Channel special on the V-22s deployed to Iraq that is supposed to contain honest facts and commentary regarding the aircrafts history and capability.

http://military.discovery.com/tv/osprey/osprey.html

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:53 am

It was pretty enlightening if anyone else watched it.
 
cloudy
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Fri May 02, 2008 7:46 pm

I didn't get to see it. Were the results as bad as were predicted by some? I'm inclined to think of the Osprey as a kind of boutique aircraft - expensive but useful in small numbers for specialized missions. Sort of like the SR 71 or U-2. I'm incline d to doubt it will be either cheap or effective enough to replace all the aircraft it was supposed to replace. But maybe its flaws have been exaggerated - it will be interesting to see.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Fri May 02, 2008 8:05 pm

I didn't see the program but according to a few sources which I am not at liberty to name this machine is a bit of a death-box. Any parts of this come up on the show?

Fred
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Sat May 03, 2008 12:04 am



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 3):
but according to a few sources which I am not at liberty to name this machine is a bit of a death-box.

I just returned from the AHS International Forum in Montreal. The key note speaker at the opening of the forum was Thomas E. Laux, NAVAIR Program Executive Officer for AIR ASW, Assault and Special Mission Programs. After highlighting the impressive sucesses achieved by the V-22 in it's first deployment, Mr. Laux stated in brief "The doom and gloom experts that predicted the failure of the V-22's deployment are going to need to find something new to pick on". The entire room broke into applause following that statement. Including the CEOs and employees of Sikorsky, Agusta-Westland and EuroCopter.


Watch the program...

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Sun May 04, 2008 12:42 am

Did it actually show both sides or was it the usual Military channel propaganda?
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
CTR
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Sun May 04, 2008 1:35 am



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 5):
Did it actually show both sides or was it the usual Military channel propaganda?

Although mention is made of the troubled history of the V-22, the program centers on the aircrafts Iraq deployment and the personnel piloting, flying in and supporting the aircraft. So for those hoping to see an in depth rehash of every problem experienced by the V-22 over the past 20 years, there may be some disappointment.

Compared to the Time article, the program is very well balanced.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
bingo
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Mon May 05, 2008 2:51 am

The first squadron of the V-22s just got back from their first deployment to Iraq. I read that the deployment went well but they want to put a turret gun on the bottom to be manned by an onboard gunner. Should be interesting to see this bird evolve....
 
cloudy
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonigh

Mon May 05, 2008 7:37 am

Is Iraq as it currently stands truly a good test for the bird? Most of the danger now comes for IEDs.We are pretty close to winning, if you measure victory in purely military terms. The environment in 2003 or 2006 was definitely more dangerous. And now large areas are pretty much pacified, so the bird could be used only in these areas to make it look better, or to protect soldiers from its perceived flaws.
 
CTR
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Mon May 05, 2008 10:39 am

Cloudy,

Have you seen the program yet?

The Marines have stated "We are not claiming that the V-22 has won the war of proving it's worth, but it has won a major battle".

Watch the program and read the latest reports.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
Devilfish
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonigh

Tue May 06, 2008 12:48 am



Quoting Bingo (Reply 7):
I read that the deployment went well but they want to put a turret gun on the bottom to be manned by an onboard gunner.

Just to clarify, DID reports that only SOCOM's CV-22s are in line to get the belly guns for now. The Marines do not have a contract for their MV-22Bs to be similarly equipped.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...s-turret-to-trial-in-cv-22s-04618/

Quote:
"Now BAE Systems has announced that will develop this Remote Guardian System for the CV-22 Ospreys that will be flown by US special forces. The $491,000 U.S. Special Operations Command contract calls for rapid development, installation, testing, and qualification of this solution, and has a potential value of $16.3 million if all options are exercised and the solution goes into production for the SOCOM fleet. The US Marine Corps' MV-22B tilt-rotors are not involved in this contract, nor have they signed a separate contract with BAE Systems at this time."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_RWS_RGS_on_MV-22_Slide_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/.../ORD_RWS_RGS_on_MV-22_Slide_lg.jpg

"May 1/08: Production begins. BAE Systems Inc. in Johnson City, NY receives a FFP pre-priced contract modification for $8 million for a CV-22 interim defense weapon system productions option in support of U.S. Special Operations Command and NAVAIR. Work will be performed in Johnson City, NY from April 30/08 through Jan 31/09, using FY 2006 SOCOM procurement funds and FY 2008 Navy aircraft procurement funds. This is a within scope modification to a competitive contract where 2 offers were received (H92222-08-C-0006-P00003).
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
bingo
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Tue May 06, 2008 4:00 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
Just to clarify, DID reports that only SOCOM's CV-22s are in line to get the belly guns for now. The Marines do not have a contract for their MV-22Bs to be similarly equipped.....

Its not a contract that they lack its money. I wouldnt be shocked if the Devil Dawgs at MARCORSYSCOM invent a better system at half the cost and in 3 months. The Marines have always had to do more with less. They arent going to let a contract stand in the way of protecting this evac angel. Hell they'll tie 3 really pissed off Gunnys to the bottom of these birds with 9mms if they have to....but she will make it out of any hornet's nest they send it to. All this so the Navy can buy some new expensive toy..... Big grin  stirthepot 
 
cloudy
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Tue May 06, 2008 5:37 pm



Quoting CTR (Reply 9):
Have you seen the program yet?

The Marines have stated "We are not claiming that the V-22 has won the war of proving it's worth, but it has won a major battle".

I havn't seen it yet. What question does the program seek an answer to?

If the question is: Will the V-22 be capable in succeeding in missions like the one that helped inspire its development (that is , long range, high speed commando raids and search and rescue)? Could it have pulled off Desert One? My guess is that the answer to this question is yes.

If the question is: Will the V-22 be cheap enough, tough enough, survivable enough, and reliable enough to replace all the helicopters it is supposed to replace? My guess is the answer to this question is no. Procurement cost alone could ensure that most of the aforementioned helicopters will be replaced by helicopters, however reluctantly. We could easily see scattered. very small Osprey units doing rescue work, while a couple squadrons would be available for commando missions - unless costs go way down.

IN SHORT - my guess is the Osprey will survive, but only as an expensive boutique aircraft for highly specialized missions. Sort of like the SR71 and the U2.
 
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Tue May 06, 2008 10:45 pm



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 12):
What question does the program seek an answer to?

Unlike the V-22 Time Ragazine article that had a blatent agenda, this Mil Channel program on the V-22 is more about the deployment of Marines flying and supporting the aircraft. Comparativly little is about the Osprey itself.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 12):
IN SHORT - my guess is the Osprey will survive, but only as an expensive boutique aircraft for highly specialized missions. Sort of like the SR71 and the U2.

Now that the Osprey is deployed, we don't need to guess. We only need to watch.

I wonder if 60 years ago Sikorsky, Bell, Kaman and Pieseki were told that the helicopter with it's complexity, high maintenance, high cost, low payload and low range would never ammount to more than "an expensive boutique aircraft for highly specialized missions".

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
bingo
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Wed May 07, 2008 5:31 am



Quoting CTR (Reply 13):
Now that the Osprey is deployed, we don't need to guess. We only need to watch.

Agreed, they still havent figured out the tactics for it yet. At the risk of making a bad comparison they are kind of at a place where they were pre-vietnam when figuring out the Air Cav. They know what the bird is capable of, they just need to figure out the best ways to utilize it's strengths. It wont be until later build blocks that we see the true effect of this bird.
 
cloudy
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Wed May 07, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting CTR (Reply 13):
I wonder if 60 years ago Sikorsky, Bell, Kaman and Pieseki were told that the helicopter with it's complexity, high maintenance, high cost, low payload and low range would never ammount to more than "an expensive boutique aircraft for highly specialized missions".

Helicopters do fill a more limited role than fixed wings. There are simply a lot more fixed wing aircraft than helicopters, even if you only consider the size range in which it competes. With fuel prices where they are, we may see auto-gyros or fixed wing aircraft replace the helicopter in some roles. If you include cost in the comparison, the auto-gyro may be a more practical compromise between fixed wing and helicopter in many applications. A more fair comparison is to compare the Osprey to the FIRST generation of helicopters. The first generation of OPERATIONAL helicopters WERE more or less boutique aircraft. It wasn't until the UH-1 generation that helicopters began to fulfill their promise. I have no doubt that future tilt rotors will be more widely applied than the Osprey, though probably they won't be as popular as helicopters for a long time.

Quoting CTR (Reply 13):
Now that the Osprey is deployed, we don't need to guess. We only need to watch.

Even considering current deployments, we won't know how vulnerable the beast is to enemy fire until we see it confront a more hostile environment (and a more capable enemy) then today's insurgents in Iraq. We won't know how much it costs compared to the helicopters it is supposed to replace until the later blocks come out. These questions are the most critical in determining if the Osprey fulfills the original claims of its backers.

Current tests do reveal that it is not as bad in missions suited for it as its critics claimed, however. That makes its complete cancellation unlikely.

However, I still see reason to believe that tilt-rotors will for some time not be mature enough to replace the majority of Marine helicopters. When/If the Marines use a tilt rotor replaces the bulk of their helicopter fleet, they will use something very much different than the Osprey. They will use the next generation of tilt rotors - which will make use of the experience of building the Osprey.

In the far future, assuming continued high fuel prices, we might see the helicopter's role narrowed somewhat. It will find itself squeezed by the tilt-rotor on the high end and the autogyro on the low end.
 
CTR
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Wed May 07, 2008 11:12 pm

Cloudy,

Good thoughtful analysis.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
Alessandro
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:55 pm

Hasn´t it been awful quiet about this bird for a while, any news?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
bingo
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:43 am

No news is usually good news.  Smile On a different note... back on May 31st they dedicated a memorial to two crews who died in 2000 while testing the bird. One crash was in April and the other was in December. The memorial is at the USMC museum in Quantico, Virginia. Its absolutely beautiful and very fitting.
http://www.ospreymemorial.com/
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:57 am



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 12):
If the question is: Will the V-22 be capable in succeeding in missions like the one that helped inspire its development (that is , long range, high speed commando raids and search and rescue)? Could it have pulled off Desert One? My guess is that the answer to this question is yes.

I think the development is going well, people forget this in effect trying to build a blackhawk with NO helicopters ever being built before it. My guess is that it will take another 10 years to really hit its stride in all its desired missions.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 12):
If the question is: Will the V-22 be cheap enough, tough enough, survivable enough, and reliable enough to replace all the helicopters it is supposed to replace?

I don't think it will ever replace the helicopter completely. Just too many applications where the smaller footprint and frontal area of a conventional helicopter is more important than raw speed. Also heavy lift might say with "conventional" tandem rotor helicopters since they put the lift and load into the fuselage instead of having to have very strong wings to keep it all together. Quad rotor tilt rotors might be the spoiler in this relm as if they can replace C130 sized transports AND do heavy lift in vertical applications.... The engineering on a quad rotor tilt rotor is going to be difficult at best though.
 
dragon6172
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RE: Military Channel Special On V-22 Osprey Tonight

Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:37 am



Quoting Bingo (Reply 18):
back on May 31st they dedicated a memorial to two crews who died in 2000 while testing the bird. One crash was in April and the other was in December. The memorial is at the USMC museum in Quantico, Virginia. Its absolutely beautiful and very fitting.

I have been meaning to go check out the new museum up there, and this adds another reason to go. SSgt Nelson was one of my instructors when I was going thru H-46 mech school, and Cpl Kelly was one class behind me and lived in the barracks room next to me. Actually came across these two and had a few drinks the night prior to the crash. The radio call for all assets to RTB due to an "aircraft down in LZ Osprey" sticks with me, as does seeing the wreckage show up at the hanger on flat bed trailers a few days later.
Good Marines all of them.
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