Cheshire
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Area 51

Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:01 pm

I was speaking recently to an F-111 pilot who took part in Red Flag a few years ago. He said there was an RAF Tornado crew that suffered an in flight engine fire and asked for permission to make an emergency landing at Area 51. The crew asked twice for permission to recover to Area 51's runway and were told 'Negative- eject and a chopper will pick you up'.
Exactly what is Uncle Sam hiding there?
 
JoeinTX
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RE: Area 51

Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:35 pm

Obviously, just a few items that they don't want anyone to know that we have or can produce.

UFOs? Space aliens? Interdimensional doorways to Zeta Reticuli (or is it "Reticulae?")


No.


Just a few aircraft with the latest and greatest our minds can come up with and some advanced, but very terrestrial, electronics and radar sets that might bely what we know about our potential opponents abilities. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Area 51

Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:37 pm



Quoting Cheshire (Thread starter):
I was speaking recently to an F-111 pilot who took part in Red Flag a few years ago. He said there was an RAF Tornado crew that suffered an in flight engine fire and asked for permission to make an emergency landing at Area 51. The crew asked twice for permission to recover to Area 51's runway and were told 'Negative- eject and a chopper will pick you up'.
Exactly what is Uncle Sam hiding there?

No one but those people who work inside the facility knows. The place has been highly classified for years and I don't suspect that's going to change any. Incidentally, did the Tornado crew eject and were they O.K. when they were recovered?
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MDorBust
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RE: Area 51

Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:09 pm

Not to be a pisser, but the only recorded loss of an RAF Tornado during exercises in NV was due to loss of control and impact with terrain while conducting SAM avoidance exercises.

Story seems to be an urban myth.
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highlander0
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RE: Area 51

Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:45 pm

LINK suggests either 20th/30th March 1988.


Google is thy friend.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Area 51

Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:02 pm

Every RAF Tornado ever lost:

http://www.tornado-data.com/Production/RAF%20Crash%20Data.pdf

Only the crash on the 30th is recorded.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Norlander
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RE: Area 51

Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:47 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Only the crash on the 30th is recorded.

The crash on the 20th of March 1988 could still have happened per the other webpage, just not appearing in certain publications due to the nature of the crash (refused access to area 51).

If the story is true the March 20 1988 date seems to fit. At that point in time the Cold War was still on and the Dreamland Resort was testing the B-2 Spirit under the Aurora codename (which later has been suggested belongs to a whole different post-SR71 project, even though retired official sources confirm it was the B-2 codename ). The nature and characteristics of the B-2 Spirit were at that point in time Highly Classified and worth asking allies to lose aircraft over.

[Edited 2008-04-08 15:48:41]

[Edited 2008-04-08 15:50:07]
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zeke
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RE: Area 51

Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:06 pm



Quoting Norlander (Reply 6):
The crash on the 20th of March 1988 could still have happened per the other webpage, just not appearing in certain publications due to the nature of the crash (refused access to area 51).

The RAF still would have published an accident report, they have no for the 20th, but have for the 30th. For the crash on the 30th, the pilot would have had no time to talk to anyone, it happened at low level.
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highlander0
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:05 am

They would've published it, just redacted, like alot of them are.


Also, the data only reveals the 30th. I don't believe, after 20 years, that the crash of the A/C would've been hidden. The MoD isn't that good. Trust me. [:
 
buss61
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:22 am

I dont know if it happened or not but it does sound like something that could happen. I wonder what they would say if a airliner packed with a bunch of people needed to make an emergency landing at Area 51. Just something to think about!!!
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highlander0
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:25 am

I'd guess they'd move things away rather quickly, or advise them to land on the dry lake perhaps?
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:27 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 3):
Story seems to be an urban myth

I'm gonna agree on that one. If there was stuff there they didn't want ANYONE to see, then they would have initially bought up all land within line of sight of the area. Not to mention, a secret base isn't worth the dirt it's built on if they can't even hide whatever it is they are doing. I'm sure any military aircraft in need of immediate assistance would be granted permission to land there. And of course you're instructed to stay in your aircraft once stopped etc...
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aeroweanie
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:02 am



Quoting Norlander (Reply 6):
If the story is true the March 20 1988 date seems to fit. At that point in time the Cold War was still on and the Dreamland Resort was testing the B-2 Spirit under the Aurora codename (which later has been suggested belongs to a whole different post-SR71 project, even though retired official sources confirm it was the B-2 codename ). The nature and characteristics of the B-2 Spirit were at that point in time Highly Classified and worth asking allies to lose aircraft over.

As the B-2 wasn't rolled out until November 22, 1988 and first flew on July 17, 1989, they could hardly have been testing it in March of 1988! Also, despite the attempts to control the media's view of the B-2 at rollout, the late Mike Dornheim of Aviation Week & Space Technology rented a Cessna 172 and legally flew over the ceremony, getting great pictures of the configuration. These were published the next week in AW&ST.

One of Mike's pictures:
http://www.ausairpower.net/B-2A-Rollout.jpg
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:45 am



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 11):
Not to mention, a secret base isn't worth the dirt it's built on if they can't even hide whatever it is they are doing.

Plus, they most likely bring out the really cool toys at night. Moonless nights at that.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
checksixx
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:26 pm



Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 11):
I'm sure any military aircraft in need of immediate assistance would be granted permission to land there. And of course you're instructed to stay in your aircraft once stopped etc...

Having worked out on the ranges, I'd have to agree. Also, there doesn't seem to be too much to see out at Groom during the day.

At night is when (sometimes) interesting activity takes place. Never had any of my pictures turn out though...
 
474218
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:49 pm



Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 12):
As the B-2 wasn't rolled out until November 22, 1988 and first flew on July 17, 1989, they could hardly have been testing it in March of 1988! Also, despite the attempts to control the media's view of the B-2 at rollout, the late Mike Dornheim of Aviation Week & Space Technology rented a Cessna 172 and legally flew over the ceremony, getting great pictures of the configuration. These were published the next week in AW&ST.

The B-2 was not developed or tested a Area 51. The B-2 was built in and had it first flight from Palmdale California (Air Force Plant 42). Flight testing took place at Edwards AFB.
 
f4wso
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:55 pm

I would put this in the urban myth category based on my experiences at Nellis. I participated in two Red Flags in 1983, Fighter Weapons School graduation exercise in 1986, and a Green Flag in 1992. In every case, if we needed to put it down quick the nearest suitable runway was available. It didn't have to be Groom Lake, Indian Springs was also nearby.

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA
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sprout5199
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RE: Area 51

Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:20 pm



Quoting Cheshire (Thread starter):
He said there was an RAF Tornado crew

And even if they did land, don't you think they would be cleared at least T/S, they are RAF officers right? And I will bet some money that some people in the RAF knew about the B-2 before the roll out. The US isn't THAT paranoid. But the debrief would be a bitch.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Alien
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RE: Area 51

Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:20 am



Quoting Cheshire (Thread starter):
Exactly what is Uncle Sam hiding there?

Little green men.
Ray guns.
Flying Saucers.
 
474218
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RE: Area 51

Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:29 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 17):
But the debrief would be a bitch.

The only thing I can say about the times I have been debriefed. Very anti-climatic.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Area 51

Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:40 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
The only thing I can say about the times I have been debriefed. Very anti-climatic.

But did you land at a top-secret, not acknowledged base without orders?

Dan in Jupiter
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Area 51

Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:36 pm

I don't know, I suppose this is possible, but if anything important was out in the open then satellites could have seen it anyway. A few years ago an airliner was allowed an emergency diversion to Whiteman, AFB. I just don't suppose they let any of the passengers get up close to a B-2.  Smile

Quote:
DATE & SITE: 7/12 - Whiteman Air Force Base, Mo.
AIRCRAFT & REGISTRATION: McDonnell Douglas MD-83 N9413T (Trans World Airlines)
CIRCUMSTANCES: Emergency landing at Air Force base after catastrophic failure
of
No. 1 engine in flight and smoke in cabin and cockpit/emergency
evacuation/meteorological conditions not reported. D
DEATHS & INJURIES: 122 - Uninjured
NTSB ID#: CHI01IA211
PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS2: Details of engine failure and reason for smoke in
cockpit
and cabin not reported

BTW, there are or have been more than a few former Soviet aircraft at Groom Lake, that's one of the things they're "hiding" there.  Smile
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Curt22
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RE: Area 51

Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting Buss61 (Reply 9):
I dont know if it happened or not but it does sound like something that could happen. I wonder what they would say if a airliner packed with a bunch of people needed to make an emergency landing at Area 51. Just something to think about!!!

I suspect that IF the govt had a secret base in the middle of nowhere that they would restrict the airspace over this area so the idea of a commercial airliner needing to make an emergency landing would be moot since these acft would never be allowed to come near this secret base in the first place.

If such place a actually exists, there are also any number of other airfields in the local LAS area including the Nellis range...of course, that's IF such a place existed in the first place (wink wink).
 
acw367
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:14 am

I worked with the pilot of this particular Tornado later in the 90's. In order to gain more manoeuvrability when he was bounced at low level he turned of the spin prevention and incidence limiting system (SPILS)which naturally makes the aircraft more unstable and therefore more manoeuvrable. Obviously though there is less computer assistance to maintain controlled flight.

He lost control of the unstable jet and had only a couple of seconds in which to eject before impact. This was not a mechanical failure which could have resulted in a diversion, it was a loss of control that reached an unrecoverable position quickly, causing the crew to eject. After the crash he was transferred from fast jet to multi-engine and he eventually became a successful pilot on the Hercules fleet.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:29 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Every RAF Tornado ever lost:

http://www.tornado-data.com/Production/RAF%20Crash%20Data.pdf

Only the crash on the 30th is recorded.

Was looking at these, whats up with this:
"06/ 02/ 1984 Crashed 15m South West of Wilhelmshaven, Germany Lightning strike caused starboard underwing fuel tank to catch fire/ explode Aircrew Error"

Aircrew Error for a lighting strike?

Damn the review board is harsh.

Dan in Jupiter
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:39 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
The only thing I can say about the times I have been debriefed. Very anti-climatic.



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 24):
Aircrew Error for a lighting strike?

Fighter pilots are gods. Therefore, they should be able to control such things as lightning.  Wink  Big grin
I lift things up and put them down.
 
checksixx
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:12 pm

If the story was even close to being true, the could have landed in many other places as people have said already.

Indian Springs and Mercury would probably be plenty close enough.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:25 pm



Quoting Curt22 (Reply 22):
I suspect that IF the govt had a secret base in the middle of nowhere that they would restrict the airspace over this area so the idea of a commercial airliner needing to make an emergency landing would be moot since these acft would never be allowed to come near this secret base in the first place.

When flying SEA-LAS (and one other city - SEA-PHX, I believe) on AS, you can actually see Area 51 off in the distance (which I agree is not "close", but still...).
 
B747forever
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:30 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
When flying SEA-LAS (and one other city - SEA-PHX, I believe) on AS, you can actually see Area 51 off in the distance (which I agree is not "close", but still...).

But exactly where is Area 51 located. And do US have more areas like area 51???
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
nomadd22
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:43 pm

I had a German Tornado crash into a communications relay I'd just spent a year installing in Indian Basin just south of Roswell in the late 90s. I stopped joking about aliens crashing into my stuff when too many people took me seriously.
Anon
 
Norlander
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:44 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 28):

But exactly where is Area 51 located. And do US have more areas like area 51???

About 100 miles north of Las Vegas Nevada. Not more secret then you can view it on Google Earth...
Coordinates: 37.14.06N 115.48.40W
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Norlander
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:59 pm

Area 51 isn't the only interesting place north of Vegas though.

Tonopah (area 52) is just as interesting (38.3N 117.5W).

Another is in Monotony Valley (37.39N 116.01W)

And more if you search around the web...
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B747forever
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:31 pm



Quoting Norlander (Reply 30):

Okay, thank you so much for all the info. Will check it up now  Smile
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
474218
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:27 pm



Quoting B747forever (Reply 28):
And do US have more areas like area 51???

There must be at least 50 more areas.
 
buss61
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:06 pm

I was watching a thing on the Discovery channel the other day and they had a guy on there saying that most of the top secret stuff at Area 51 had been moved to the White Sands range (in CO i think) weather or not that is true I have no idea but it could spark some debate!
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MDorBust
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RE: Area 51

Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:32 pm



Quoting Buss61 (Reply 34):
the White Sands range (in CO i think)

NM
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Stitch
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RE: Area 51

Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:10 am



Quoting B747forever (Reply 28):
And do US have more areas like area 51???

With all the attention focused on Area 51, Popular Mechanics noted many years back that the USAF was considering moving many "Black" projects to a new facility and testing range in Utah at the Green River Complex. However, that PM carried the story is enough to make me doubt it's veracity.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/greenriver.html
 
covert
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RE: Area 51

Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:31 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 17):

The United States has a caveat for classified information called NOFORN (disclosure not authorized to foreign nationals.)

Just because the coalition personnel have a comparable security clearance means nothing as far as the US Govt is concerned.

Besides, S and TS are mainstream clearances, there are numerous more "special" security and area clearances besides your standard TS/SCI.
none
 
Norlander
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RE: Area 51

Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:12 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
With all the attention focused on Area 51, Popular Mechanics noted many years back that the USAF was considering moving many "Black" projects to a new facility and testing range in Utah at the Green River Complex. However, that PM carried the story is enough to make me doubt it's veracity

It's worth noting that Groom Lake (Area 51) has been expanded over the last decade and that over a thousand people still work there every day (many of which are ferried in on Janet flights). If it's all a smoke screen it's the most expensive one... Wink
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nomadd22
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RE: Area 51

Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:04 pm

White Sands is useful because it's just across the hills from Roswell, where the aliens are always crashing, but they do have a lot of trouble with all those giant insects from the Trinity Bomb test site, so they still keep some stuff in Nevada.
Anon
 
jarheadk5
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RE: Area 51

Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:14 pm



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 21):
A few years ago an airliner was allowed an emergency diversion to Whiteman, AFB. I just don't suppose they let any of the passengers get up close to a B-2.

I'd be willing to be the pax were handled the same way pax are handled at any other AF base - guided in a straight line from the airstairs to the bus.

When I was in the Corps, Whiteman AFB was a regular overnight stop for us when we'd go cross-country in the CH-53E. It's not a top-secret location... but the "red line of death" on the flightline is monitored a lot closer than most other places, and I personally wouldn't even approach it without a Whiteman-issued line badge with the correct permissions on it.
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checksixx
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RE: Area 51

Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:44 am

The Nellis Range complex is broken up into 'Area's' on the map of it for identification/navigation purposes. Area 1 and so on. The Groom Lake complex happens to be located in Area, Number 51. If it had been 25...well, you get the picture. Tonopah is quite aways away from that area and I would doubt it was 'Area 52' as someone posted. I don't think they go that far Northwest. Not sure if the Nevada Test Site/Mercury is split up into area's though. Was out there for a couple of weeks, but everything is very hush hush...I drank and brushed with bottled water while in the TLF out at Mercury.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Area 51

Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:14 am



Quoting JarheadK5 (Reply 40):
When I was in the Corps, Whiteman AFB was a regular overnight stop for us when we'd go cross-country in the CH-53E. It's not a top-secret location... but the "red line of death" on the flightline is monitored a lot closer than most other places, and I personally wouldn't even approach it without a Whiteman-issued line badge with the correct permissions on it.

Yeah, after his stint in the 1st Marines in Korea my dad worked for the Corps Of Engineers. He did the geological testing for the Minuteman silos that went into Whiteman back in the early SAC times. This was back in the B-47s days there. Anyway, my mom had to have a special clearance just to drop him off and pick him up for work there. She said they put her under a microscope even back then.
I did an overnight there with the Boy Scouts around 1979-80. We slept in the gym and our movements were watched very closely.
On a side note, I remember several trips as a kid where Minuteman silos off-base along Hwy 50 were just considered part of the scenery.  Smile
BTW, the B-2 is what saved Whiteman. The base was targeted for closure after the START treaty.
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j.mo
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RE: Area 51

Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting Curt22 (Reply 22):
I suspect that IF the govt had a secret base in the middle of nowhere that they would restrict the airspace over this area so the idea of a commercial airliner needing to make an emergency landing would be moot since these acft would never be allowed to come near this secret base in the first place.

Check out just south of Jet Route 58-80 between the Coaldale VOR and Wilson Creek VOR. In R-4809 there is a little military airfield called TNX.
 
jgarrido
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RE: Area 51

Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:04 pm



Quoting Cheshire (Thread starter):
Exactly what is Uncle Sam hiding there?

Since no one as said it yet, I guess I'll step up to the plate:

If I told you, I'd have to kill you.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Area 51

Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:48 pm



Quoting Covert (Reply 37):
The United States has a caveat for classified information called NOFORN (disclosure not authorized to foreign nationals.)

Just because the coalition personnel have a comparable security clearance means nothing as far as the US Govt is concerned.

Besides, S and TS are mainstream clearances, there are numerous more "special" security and area clearances besides your standard TS/SCI.

True, I had a NATO TS and handled NOFORN materials all the time(I was an Electronics Tech, I worked on Crypto gear).You also forgot the biggie when it come to classified stuff--NEED TO KNOW. I was just saying that if an aircraft had to make an emergency landing, it would be easier for a RAF plane to get clearance to "secret" bases.

Dan in Jupiter
 
acw367
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RE: Area 51

Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 45):
I was just saying that if an aircraft had to make an emergency landing, it would be easier for a RAF plane to get clearance to "secret" bases.

Don't forget that the RAF had an exchange pilot flying the F117A from Tonopah in 1987, even before the aircraft was declassified to the rest of the world in 1988.

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