Beaucaire
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Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:30 am

During his most recent visit to Tripoli,Vladimir Putin clinched a deal under which Libya would supply oil against Russian Sukhoi-35 jets.It is unknown what quantities are involved.
Will feed more as news become available

http://www.knaapo.ru/media/News/maks2007/su35eng.swf

[Edited 2008-04-17 00:34:15]
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F27Friendship
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:07 pm

that is a mean machine.

Notice how they used silouets of the JSF in the optical location system graph..
 
Devilfish
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:20 am

So, if this is confirmed, it means Dassault's Rafale lost again?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:34 pm

With our great revolutionary leader one never knows-maybe he buys both aircraft ...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Navion
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:06 pm

That's not the JSF in the optical location system graph, those are F-22's. They can dream all they want but I'll take the F-22 all day every day over the SU-35.
 
Acheron
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:17 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 1):
That's not the JSF in the optical location system graph, those are F-22's. They can dream all they want but I'll take the F-22 all day every day over the SU-35.

Well, the F-22 is still pretty much detectable at BVR range with an IRST under the right conditions(and thats what the graph its trying to explain, before you get your knickers in bunch or your patriotism, whatever), and apparently the russians developed a new IRST sensitive enough for the Su-35.
We'll see(no pun intended).
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:43 am



Quoting Navion (Reply 4):
That's not the JSF in the optical location system graph, those are F-22's. They can dream all they want but I'll take the F-22 all day every day over the SU-35.

you are probably right, but the picture looked if the plane only had 1 engine. Confused me a bit
 
TaromA380
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:03 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
So, if this is confirmed, it means Dassault's Rafale lost again?

That SOB (Khadafi) promised to Sarkozy (the french president) to buy Rafales last year, in exchange for his fastouous visit in Paris and getting out of the "terrorist mantra" with the caution of Sarkozy.

Khadafi 1 : 0 Sarkozy


PS. Lybia is a small country, will never bother with mixed fighter fleet.
 
bennett123
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:12 pm

I some ways the F22 is irrelevant.

Firstly, it is not for sale to anyone in the region, (except Israel). This means that for Libya, (and most countries) it is not an option.

Secondly, even if he could buy the F22, the US and Israel will get more.
 
jutes85
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:51 pm

Does anyone have a cost list of all the new-gen fighters (f-22, 35, SU-35) etc?
nothing
 
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RJAF
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:40 pm

What a waste of money! The money could be better spent for example in upgrading Libya's miserable and decaying infrastructure.

Who are they going to fight against anyway? These aircraft will collect dust and will probably be used only for fly-pasts and army parades

My  twocents 
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:21 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 5):
Well, the F-22 is still pretty much detectable at BVR range with an IRST under the right conditions(and thats what the graph its trying to explain, before you get your knickers in bunch or your patriotism, whatever), and apparently the russians developed a new IRST sensitive enough for the Su-35.
We'll see(no pun intended).

Yes the Russians seem to develope alot that never reaches the production lines also keep that in mind. I agree the SU-35 especially in Lybian hands is not a real threat to the F-22.

Quoting RJAF (Reply 10):
What a waste of money! The money could be better spent for example in upgrading Libya's miserable and decaying infrastructure.

I agree I was hoping that Khadafi was actually changing his ways and was wanting to help his people but now I think its obvious he just wanted money to build his military back up again, what a shame.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:40 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 9):
Does anyone have a cost list of all the new-gen fighters (f-22, 35, SU-35) etc?

Roughly, from the cheapest to the most expensive, the list goes as following.

- SU-35: US $35 million
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
- SAAB JAS 39 Gripen: US$76.1 million
- F-35: US$83 million (flyaway cost in Then-Year dollars)
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)
- F-22: US$137.5 million (2008 flyaway cost)
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
LMP737
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:09 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
Firstly, it is not for sale to anyone in the region, (except Israel). This means that for Libya, (and most countries) it is not an option.

Unless something has changed very recently the F-22 is not for sale to anyone.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Flighty
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:13 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
Secondly, even if he could buy the F22, the US and Israel will get more.

Why is the Libyan AF even potentially relevant to the USA and/or Israel? There is no scenario in which Libyan AF survives such a fight. Therefore, it is unclear why he needs SU-35s.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):
- SU-35: US $35 million
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
- SAAB JAS 39 Gripen: US$76.1 million
- F-35: US$83 million (flyaway cost in Then-Year dollars)
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)
- F-22: US$137.5 million (2008 flyaway cost)

Those are crazy numbers, I'm sorry. Rafale is not (much) cheaper than Typhoon and certainly not cheaper than the Gripen. Maybe it has got something to do with the conversion into USD, but I would take this chart with a whole pint of salt.
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curlyheadboy
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:08 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 15):
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):
- SU-35: US $35 million
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
- SAAB JAS 39 Gripen: US$76.1 million
- F-35: US$83 million (flyaway cost in Then-Year dollars)
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)
- F-22: US$137.5 million (2008 flyaway cost)


Those are crazy numbers, I'm sorry. Rafale is not (much) cheaper than Typhoon and certainly not cheaper than the Gripen. Maybe it has got something to do with the conversion into USD, but I would take this chart with a whole pint of salt.

Sorry about that, you're likely right. I just did a quick search and that's why I wrote "roughly", I'll go check if I can find more precise figures, though prices may change a lot, depending on the source... never easy to tell with accuracy.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
Flighty
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:08 pm

I am shocked they are all so much money. Maybe due to currencies like you say? Thought the F-22 was by far the most expensive fighter. If not, man you Europeans really got screwed. My assumption is that the F-22 is the best, but I have no expertise here.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:22 pm



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 16):
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 15):
Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):
- SU-35: US $35 million
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
- SAAB JAS 39 Gripen: US$76.1 million
- F-35: US$83 million (flyaway cost in Then-Year dollars)
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)
- F-22: US$137.5 million (2008 flyaway cost)


Those are crazy numbers, I'm sorry. Rafale is not (much) cheaper than Typhoon and certainly not cheaper than the Gripen. Maybe it has got something to do with the conversion into USD, but I would take this chart with a whole pint of salt.

Sorry about that, you're likely right. I just did a quick search and that's why I wrote "roughly", I'll go check if I can find more precise figures, though prices may change a lot, depending on the source... never easy to tell with accuracy.

I did a search on the topic and found this very interesting document, have a read if you're interested:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae...uniques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf

Unfortunately the SU-35 is not included and figures are updated as per 2005, so the €/$ change is no longer valid, but the numbers are (according to this study) not too far from what I found and posted previously.

Excerpt:

Rafale C (EUR 51.8) $ 62.1 (EUR 113.2) $ 135.8 Air force single-seat (inc VAT)
Rafale M (EUR 56.6) $ 67.9 (EUR 121.4) $ 145.7 Naval version (inc VAT)
JAS-39C Gripen (Poland bid) $ 68.9 (SEK 552.9) $ 76.07 Swedish version (inc VAT)
F-18E Super Hornet $ 78.4 $ 95.3 MYP II contract
Eurofighter (Germany) (EUR 85.7) $ 102.8 (EUR 118.3) $ 141.9 Tranche 2, Dec. 2003 prices
F-15E Strike Eagle $ 108.2 Not significant FY06 order
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter $ 115.0 $ 112.5 LRIP aircraft (estimates)
Eurofighter Typhoon (UK) (GBP 64.8) $ 118.6 (GBP 78.6) $ 143.8 Tranche 2, July 2004 prices
Eurofighter (Spain) Not available (EUR 105.6) $ 126.7 Tranche 2, mid 2005 prices
F-22A Raptor $ 177.6 $ 338.8 FY06 contract
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
TGIF
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:00 am



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):

Interesting figures!

The numbers from the first post are quite similar to the ones in the second one so $35M for the SU-35 is perhaps not far-fetched. That is surprisingly cheap, alot of fighter for your money!

Also surprising is the low price for the Rafale. I've always seen is as similar to the EF and this makes me wonder why they are struggling in their exporting attempts.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:49 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 19):
Also surprising is the low price for the Rafale. I've always seen is as similar to the EF and this makes me wonder why they are struggling in their exporting attempts.

A difference of $ 8 million is not that big.
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TGIF
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:53 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 20):
A difference of $ 8 million is not that big.



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 12):
- Rafale C: US$62.1 million (2006)
...
...
- Eurofighter Typhoon: $122.5 mil. (2007 flyaway cost)



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):
Rafale C (EUR 51.8) $ 62.1 (EUR 113.2) $ 135.8 Air force single-seat (inc VAT)
...
...
...
Eurofighter (Germany) (EUR 85.7) $ 102.8 (EUR 118.3) $ 141.9 Tranche 2, Dec. 2003 prices

(Quotes edited to add emphasis)

$8M? Looks more like $40M if my math isn't all wrong at this early hour...

What about maintenance cost and other costs not related to the initial purchase?
Rafale vs EF, and what about the SU-35 (since thats what Libya is going for)
 
NoUFO
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:44 am

Quoting TGIF (Reply 21):
$8M? Looks more like $40M if my math isn't all wrong at this early hour...

Reply 12 was discussed previously. If you take USD prices from say 2001 and compare those to more current numbers, the exchange rate will blow things out of proportion. Back then 1 Euro was more or less worth 1 USD, whereas today it's more like USD 1.60. Thus, if one Typhoon sold for USD 75 million in 2001, it now sells for USD 120 million.To determine and compare prices, care needs to be taken, not to compare Rafale's 2001 fly-away costs with Typhoon sales from 2006.

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):
Rafale C (...) $ 135.8 Air force single-seat (inc VAT)



Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):
Eurofighter Typhoon (UK) (...) $ 143.8 Tranche 2, July 2004 prices

Difference: $ 8 million

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 18):
Eurofighter (Spain) (...) $ 126.7 Tranche 2, mid 2005 prices

Difference: $ 9 million in favor of the EF.

Or do I miss something?

[Edited 2008-04-24 23:46:49]
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TGIF
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:35 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):

True, I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing things out.
Flyaway costs and procurement costs got me all confused for a while...
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:46 am



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 22):
Reply 12 was discussed previously. If you take USD prices from say 2001 and compare those to more current numbers, the exchange rate will blow things out of proportion. Back then 1 Euro was more or less worth 1 USD, whereas today it's more like USD 1.60. Thus, if one Typhoon sold for USD 75 million in 2001, it now sells for USD 120 million.To determine and compare prices, care needs to be taken, not to compare Rafale's 2001 fly-away costs with Typhoon sales from 2006.

So true, that's why I stressed the currency change issue in my above post. Nevertheless I think is quite safe to say that, with all the needed caution, that the Su-35 is at the cheap end of the list while the F-22 is undoubtedly the most expensive of modern fighters. Also the price gap between the two is huge to say the least. Useless to address the reasons why now, those have been discussed very well and in-depth many times here in Military Aviation, and since the thread is about Libya, maybe the main reason why they went for the Su-35 is that it's cheap enough to afford for them.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
Devilfish
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:21 am

Apologies for digging up a two-year+ old thread, but I came across this.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...-35-Mystery-Fighter-No-More-04969/

Quote:
"They add:

'Tripoli will likely be the launch export customer [for the SU-35S]. Alexander Mikheev, deputy head of Rosoboronexport, Russia’s state-owned arms export agency, confirmed at Farnborough that the contract for delivery of undisclosed number of aircraft to Libya, one of the traditional recipients of Soviet armaments, is expected to be signed this year. The first export production slots are available from 2012.'


http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_SU-35_Sukhoi_2008_lg.jpg

Older reports.....

Quote:
"Nov 15/09: Interfax quotes Rosoboronexport’s special missions director and Dubai Airshow delegation chief Mikhail Zavaly:

'Libya wants to buy our aircrafts, including Sukhoi fighter jets and Ilyushin Il-76 military airlifters,' Zavaly told Interfax on Sunday. The talks deal with the technical details of the planes offered to Libya, he said. After technical arrangements are approved, 'the Russian side will make commercial proposals to Libya,' Zavaly said.

Oct 19/09: Russia’s Interfax media agency reports that Libya plans to buy 12-15 Sukhoi Su-35 multirole fighters, another 4 Su-30s as an immediate interim order, and 6 Yakovlev Yak-130 trainer and light attack aircraft aircraft. Reports indicate that a contract could be signed with state arms export agency Rosoboronexport by the end of 2009, or early 2010."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
LimaNiner
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:14 am

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
a deal under which Libya would supply oil against Russian Sukhoi-35 jets

What does Russia want with Libyan oil? They've got plenty themselves...?
 
Lumberton
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:42 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 2):
So, if this is confirmed, it means Dassault's Rafale lost again?
Quoting TaromA380 (Reply 7):
Lybia is a small country, will never bother with mixed fighter fleet.

   I agree and I think it will be a huge humiliation for Sarko. Add this to the worrisome news that the decision on Brazil's procurement will be delayed until after Lula leaves office, that creates a lot of uncertainty for the Rafale. The French defense establishment is looking for cuts and they are desperate for foreign sales to keep the Rafale line operating. IIRC, there was an order from the UAE that also has been "delayed".
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:33 pm

Quoting LimaNiner (Reply 26):
What does Russia want with Libyan oil? They've got plenty themselves...?

because they are like the US they would rather export it and get more money than keep it for themselves. Alot of people don't realize the US exports more oil than it imports.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:25 pm

Quoting wvsuperhornet (Reply 28):
Alot of people don't realize the US exports more oil than it imports.

I'm sorry, but I just have to correct this wacky comment.

2009 US oil export: 2.02 millions barrels a day

2009 US oil import: 12.22 million barrels a day

...And even then, the numbers are misleading. The vast majority of US "exports" is not crude oil, rather it is petroleum products. Shale oil/natural gas that is refined in Canada, and returned to the US as gasoline, or refined gasoline that is sold to Central America.

http://www.platts.com/weblog/oilblog/2010/05/09/us_oil_exp.html
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_exp_dc_NUS-Z00_mbblpd_a.htm
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:03 am

Lybian oil is obviously not going to go to Russia, as much as oil from Venezuela.
It's government support of LUKOIL and the likes.
Nothing new, really. All governments do the same. They are supposed to.
 
flagon
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:34 pm

It is quite confusing, according to the link below, negotiations are on going between France and Lybia regarding the Rafale

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...fale-News/page110&highlight=rafale

"Dassault in Rafale deal talks with Libya - report"

"French defence companies Dassault Aviation and Thales and European group MBDA have been in Tripoli for two weeks to negotiate big arms contracts, the paper said, citing a number of sources.

“Talks are going well, but saying when we will sign is like reading tea-leaves,” La Tribune cited a source as saying.

“But Colonel Gaddafi promised France he would buy the Rafale anyway,” it cited another source as saying, adding that the deal could be concluded before Ramadan starts on August 11."

     
Stephane
 
Devilfish
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:34 pm

Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):
It is quite confusing, according to the link below, negotiations are on going between France and Lybia regarding the Rafale

The statements in the report seem eerily familiar. The datelines do not include the year - better check the dates on the reports from that link straight to the source. Here's an older thread on the subject.....

Report: Libya To Order Rafale (by Lumberton Jan 16 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

If anything, the best I could see for Dassault here is Libya acquiring the UAE's Mirage 2000-9s.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicola Maraspini


..... so that the Rafale sale to the Emirate could progress.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
flagon
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:45 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):
The datelines do not include the year

In the same link, the second article "Dassault in Rafale deal talks with Libya - report" basically says the same thing and is translated from the french news paper "La Tribune" dated 27/7/2010. Hence this is a recent thing, not old news extracted from the bottom of a dusty pile....
Stephane
 
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pylon101
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:38 pm

I don't have enough knowledge to compare Rafael and SU-35.
Could anybody try to present an objective assessment of both?
I mean not a couple of phrases - but more extended point of view?
 
flagon
Posts: 144
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RE: Putin Selling SU-35 To Libya

Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:15 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 34):
Could anybody try to present an objective assessment of both?

I am clearly not the best person to ask, as I am sure a lot of people who contribute to this forum would be in a position to give a comprehensive and well detailed response to your question. However if i can offer my view, I would say the comparison does not really make sense as these aircrafts are so different in terms of their original concept:
Rafale was designed with quite some compromises in mind as it is supposed to replace all planes currently in service in the french air force and navy, so it is quite versatile. It is quite light as well, especially for a twin engine.
The Su-35 I think was more designed as a heavy air superiority fighter.

Now you can always compare their respective perfomances, systems (radar range,etc...) by doing some search on the net, but at the end of day you would only be comparing numbers and I am not convinced that would be a sensible way a working out which plane is the best (if that is the answer you are seeking). I guess the real question is which plane would best meet Lybia's expectations...

Cheers
Stephane

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