Cheshire
Topic Author
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It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:06 am

From the Australian website:

(http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23607964-31477,00.html)

"THE F-35 joint strike fighter will be confirmed as the best choice to become the RAAF's frontline combat aircraft in a classified review to be presented to Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon later this week.

The final report of the high-level review commissioned by Mr Fitzgibbon in February is also expected to rule out the much more expensive US-made F-22 Raptor fighter as an alternative buy to the F-35 JSF.

Mr Fitzgibbon ordered the review into Australia's future air combat capability as concerns have risen about the development cost and production schedules of the JSF, as well as the capability choices facing Australia as the RAAF moves to replace its long-serving F-111 bombers and the frontline F/A-18 fighters after 2010"


What deterrant value does this aircraft have if you have any late model variant of the Su-27?

I guess my kid had better start learning Chinese.
 
baroque
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:47 pm



Quoting Cheshire (Thread starter):
I guess my kid had better start learning Chinese.

Surely you know that this is now state policy* Cheshire. I think, however, you are going to be told that the F-35 as far as the Sukhois are concerned will be like the cat bearing your username - it will vanish. I rather wish it would vanish before we have to pay for it.

But tell me, did we elect a new government or a Me2?

*Those who are slow on the uptake, are allowed to learn Bahasa Indonesia. US flags are to be flown alongside the Aus flag in all schools from fiscal 2008-09.
 
checksixx
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:18 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 1):
US flags are to be flown alongside the Aus flag in all schools from fiscal 2008-09.

Off topic...but why??
 
Alien
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:30 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 2):
Off topic...but why??

I think it's Baroque's attempt at humor. You see some in Oz have been brainwashed by Karlo Kopp and his faulty understanding of airpower. It's a shame really because other than drawing incorrect conclusions Kopp does some pretty good fact gathering.

Earth to Baroque if you get the best fighter available (which shot of the F-22 the F-35 is) then what do you care where it came from. Can Australia build it's own equivalent?
 
baroque
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:04 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 2):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 1):
US flags are to be flown alongside the Aus flag in all schools from fiscal 2008-09.

Off topic...but why??

Oh well, it is actually on topic, but a bit obscure if not Aus - sorry. Basically the previous Min for Defence (B Nelson) who was mad keen (or perhaps just mad) about the F-35 was previously the Min for Ed. During his tenure, there was a scheme for schools to receive Fed money for putting up a flag pole to fly the Aus flag. There was some disadvantage for schools in not accepting this "offer". As far as possible, the opening ceremonies would be by Liberal or National members of parliament, and definitely NOT Labor pollies.

So it is probably just my twisted mind, but if the F-35 now has bipartisan support, perhaps we should go back over some other Nelson policies and US school flags would be a nice touch - remembering the sense of humour common around these parts. Another part of Nelson's policies you guys might like to join in are a really good try at removing refectory facilities at most Universities here. I am sure there are others we would like to give you but I would need notice, those two stick in the mind (aka gullet in this case!).

Nelson was a GP before his political career - started as Labor and switched to Liberal. He was famous for decisions made without it seems reference to the professionals in his department - the Super Hornet it appears. So being approved by Nelson is not really the seal of approval you need!!
 
sasd209
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:18 am

I am truly at a loss for Australian politics, I'm sorry, but this thread baffles me.....

Is the F-35 good or bad for Australia? I'd like to think it would be a good thing.

SASD209
 
Alien
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:59 am

35 years ago Australia made a big stink about the F-111. Everyone thought is was a bad choice. 25 years ago everyone in Australia though thought the Hornet was a bad choice.

now they are having a hard time letting the F-111 go and the F-18s have given them good service. I suspect the F-35 and Super Hornet will also turn out well for them. Don't be surprised if they order a few F-18Gs as well.
 
Ozair
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:52 am



Quoting Sasd209 (Reply 5):
I am truly at a loss for Australian politics, I'm sorry, but this thread baffles me.....

Is the F-35 good or bad for Australia? I'd like to think it would be a good thing.

I think the active debate that has arisen from this points to the healthy nature of our political system as well as a population interested in Defence (or at least what Defence is spending the money on).

Is the F-35 good or bad for Australia? Depends on who you talk to. Some people want an aircraft that is cheaper, thus able to be procured in greater numbers as well as being compatible with current weapons (the F-35 will be able to carry 2,000lb weapons, the F-22 cannot). Both are reported to have stealth but the F-35 is not optimised to the degree the F-22 is. The F-22 is designed primarily as an air to air fighter with secondary air to ground, the F-35 will be air to ground with secondary air to air. Factor into the discussion the 99% probability that Australia will never go to war without the US, hence do we buy a plane to defend ourselves or one to complement US assets.

In my mind the F-22 makes more sense as we would receive it sooner (as long as we are are allowed to get it of course) , provide a greater capability against emerging air threats and the air to ground additions currently planned for the F-22 will give it the capability Australia requires. I also don't think the carriage of 2,000lb weapons will be as important to future RAAF strike options. To me 60 F-22 is better than 100 F-35. I am not making the decision though so I guess it's a moot point.

Quoting Alien (Reply 6):
Don't be surprised if they order a few F-18Gs as well.

I agree, now the Super Hornet purchase is confirmed I see the RAAF acquiring 6-8 F-18Gs.
 
baroque
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:51 am



Quoting Ozair (Reply 7):
In my mind the F-22 makes more sense as we would receive it sooner (as long as we are are allowed to get it of course) , provide a greater capability against emerging air threats and the air to ground additions currently planned for the F-22 will give it the capability Australia requires. I also don't think the carriage of 2,000lb weapons will be as important to future RAAF strike options. To me 60 F-22 is better than 100 F-35. I am not making the decision though so I guess it's a moot point.

Cannot argue with that Ozair, except it would be nice if we in the electorate did have a bit more input. I think our new beloved leader has not quite taken on how much we disliked some of the previous beloved leader's policies.

For starters, not only would the F-22 be more capable against Sukhois from the N it would be less of an obvious threat to our near N neighbour as it is less dedicated to dropping bombs. It does seem to take a bit to get through to Canberra (in spite of its supposed Indonesia lobby) that if we have to start bombing Indonesia, we are in a fair old pickle - from which neither F-22s nor F-35s are going to be much of a solution. And even with tankers and whatever, what else can the F-35 bomb apart from Indonesia? Ah yes, New Zealand.

Or putting it in other words, the F-22 has an obvious role in defence, whereas the characteristics of the F-35 make you wonder what it is being bought FOR. The same applied to the F-111. Alien, it is not so much that we have fallen in love with the piggy - certainly the mx folk who are seriously ill are not in love with it - but rather that there is disquiet over trying to replace a capability we never really needed, or were prepared to use, with a similar capability at a greatly increased cost.

I mean if we were ever going to use the F-111 it would surely have been on the Tim Tim border in 1975. So why the heck do we spend billions to buy bombers that irritate our neighbours and we don't intend to use?
 
Ozair
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:01 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
what else can the F-35 bomb apart from Indonesia? Ah yes, New Zealand.

That is very very tempting............

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
I mean if we were ever going to use the F-111 it would surely have been on the Tim Tim border in 1975

Although I know the reasons I am still surprised we didn't send the pigs to the first Gulf War. Having had one operational sortie over East Timor during 99 really is a shame for an aircraft that gave Australia sterling service.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
if we have to start bombing Indonesia, we are in a fair old pickle - from which neither F-22s nor F-35s are going to be much of a solution

I'm not worried about that, if we ever dropped bombs on the Indons it would be with their permission.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
So why the heck do we spend billions to buy bombers that irritate our neighbours and we don't intend to use?

Because deep down in the depths of the white paper is the statement that the ADF's most fundamental mission should be the defence of Australia and the F-111 as well as it's replacement the Super Hornet make this possible.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
For starters, not only would the F-22 be more capable against Sukhois from the N it would be less of an obvious threat to our near N neighbour as it is less dedicated to dropping bombs

I think the F-22 appears more future proof to me, if we make that big an investment we should get the option that will go the distance.
 
Alien
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:45 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
For starters, not only would the F-22 be more capable against Sukhois from the N

How many SU-3Xs do they have now? How many are they likely to have in the future? What will their fuel state be after flying 1300 miles? Do you really think it would be something a few Super Hornets could not handle much less 70 F-35s?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
it would be less of an obvious threat to our near N neighbour as it is less dedicated to dropping bombs.

No more a threat between an F-16 and an F-15. The best defense is to have the ability to take out a potential adversary's infrastructure. No air field, no SU-30 threat. Why shoot them down in the sky when you can take care of the problem without them ever taking off. Further, you are ignoring where any threat would most likely come and that is by sea.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
but rather that there is disquiet over trying to replace a capability we never really needed,

See above.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
I mean if we were ever going to use the F-111 it would surely have been on the Tim Tim border in 1975. So why the heck do we spend billions to buy bombers that irritate our neighbours and we don't intend to use?

You are buying multi role aircraft that gives Oz the option of playing offense or defense. What neighbor have you irritated by having the capability to defend yourselves from most plausible threats independent of the US.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 9):
I think the F-22 appears more future proof to me, if we make that big an investment we should get the option that will go the distance.

The F-35 will be just as future proof as the F-16 is. It's not just about stealth. As a weapons system the F-35 will be far superior to the F-22. Do not be fooled. The F-35 is being talked down because the Air Force wants more Raptors now.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:48 pm

F-22 is not for sale right now, so that moots that point from go. What always seems to get lost in the fog is that the original JSF RFP was for four times the AA effectiveness of the F-16. Everything I'm hearing says that F-35 is meeting or exceeding that goal.
There are many types in the US inventory that do more than one job but IMO, the F-16 is the only true multirole aircraft. The Viper is the only one that does the AA role as well as the AG with equal effectiveness, without a dedicated variant (a la F-15E).
I look for F-35 to do suprisingly (to most) well in the AA role.

[Edited 2008-04-29 10:50:03]
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
checksixx
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:57 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
What will their fuel state be after flying 1300 miles? Do you really think it would be something a few Super Hornets could not handle much less 70 F-35s?

Agreed. I've seen this point made time and time again and its always ignored.

Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
The F-35 will be just as future proof as the F-16 is. It's not just about stealth. As a weapons system the F-35 will be far superior to the F-22. Do not be fooled. The F-35 is being talked down because the Air Force wants more Raptors now.

Well...we have to be careful because both are excellent at what they do. I wouldn't say its far superior to the F-22 because one was built for air dominance, the other, air to ground/attack. True some of the new technology is pretty neat, system wise, but they'll both have to fight the same. The F-35 is a 9g airplane and should be able to dogfight with the best of them. External store's (wingtip) AtA missiles have already been through the wind tunnel process. Truth be told...other than the first or second day, the F-35 will be rolling with external stores.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
The Viper is the only one that does the AA role as well as the AG with equal effectiveness, without a dedicated variant (a la F-15E).

Only made due to a systems, carriage requirement issue for all the mudslinging they wanted to do with it...(F-15E)
 
Ozair
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:15 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
The F-35 will be just as future proof as the F-16 is. It's not just about stealth. As a weapons system the F-35 will be far superior to the F-22. Do not be fooled. The F-35 is being talked down because the Air Force wants more Raptors now.

Having seen presentations on both aircraft I am not yet convinced the difference between the F-35 and F-22 is as much as your indicating.

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 11):
What always seems to get lost in the fog is that the original JSF RFP was for four times the AA effectiveness of the F-16. Everything I'm hearing says that F-35 is meeting or exceeding that goal.

Can you quantify this for me? I have never seen a four times assessment in AtA for the JSF over the F-16, merely parity performance.
 
connies4ever
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:26 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 12):
Well...we have to be careful because both are excellent at what they do. I wouldn't say its far superior to the F-22 because one was built for air dominance, the other, air to ground/attack.

I have a problem with these statements: the F-35 is still (and fairly early days) in test flight. IIRC only the B model has flown to this date. So how can it be known 'right now' that it is 'excellent at what it does'. It's not in service, it's testing, and in fact was grounded for several months after a serious electrical problem.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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cpd
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:46 am



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 14):
I have a problem with these statements: the F-35 is still (and fairly early days) in test flight. IIRC only the B model has flown to this date. So how can it be known 'right now' that it is 'excellent at what it does'. It's not in service, it's testing, and in fact was grounded for several months after a serious electrical problem.

My preference, for my taxes, would be a hedged bet, F18/E/F, EA-18G and F22. I know it is going to be an expensive option, but you should never spend too little on national security.

And we know how the F22 performs - and that is, extremely good. So much so that it could well operate without opposition. There is a need for that kind of plane in Australia. The F22 is the kick-proverbial machine that overwhelms everything else, allowing strike aircraft to operate with impunity. Even a F22/F111 combination is a very dangerous one.

The F35 is still at very early days, price doesn't appear locked down, so it could become more expensive still - and the program is still full of potential twists and turns. It doesn't make sense to put all of our eggs in one single basket.
 
baroque
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:39 am



Quoting Ozair (Reply 9):
Because deep down in the depths of the white paper is the statement that the ADF's most fundamental mission should be the defence of Australia and the F-111 as well as it's replacement the Super Hornet make this possible.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 8):
For starters, not only would the F-22 be more capable against Sukhois from the N it would be less of an obvious threat to our near N neighbour as it is less dedicated to dropping bombs

I think the F-22 appears more future proof to me, if we make that big an investment we should get the option that will go the distance.

And what I find difficult to understand is how bombing various places about 1000 km away would help our defence. What would we want to destroy in Indonesia and what would we be capable of destroying? Even more to the point what could we destroy that would not turn an apparently difficult situation into an even worse one.

Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
How many SU-3Xs do they have now? How many are they likely to have in the future? What will their fuel state be after flying 1300 miles? Do you really think it would be something a few Super Hornets could not handle much less 70 F-35s?

Wrong set of SUs, the Indonesian ones are not likely to be a threat. It is trying to assist Indonesia to defend Natuna that is a more likely scenario.

Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
You are buying multi role aircraft that gives Oz the option of playing offense or defense. What neighbor have you irritated by having the capability to defend yourselves from most plausible threats independent of the US.

Possibly you don't read the Indonesian newspapers. Relationships became difficult after the Timor election, and then when Howard strutted the stage as Dep Sheriff they were poisonous. Strangely, it took the Bali bombing to cause a rapprochement. At that point, even Howard seemed to realise that a few policemen plodding around Indonesia were a greater form of security than huffing and puffing and threatening to invade them if we felt it to be convenient.

The effect of the original F-111 purchase is difficult to assess because relations were already poisonous after the Irian takeover.

Australia should stop feeling threatened by Indonesia and the reverse is also true. The biggest danger would arise if starvation occurs (again) in Indonesia and masses of boat people try to come over. I am not sure how bombing refugees from a famine would go over as a strategy - not to mention that with so many boats it might not even be effective!
 
checksixx
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:33 pm



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 14):
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 12):
Well...we have to be careful because both are excellent at what they do. I wouldn't say its far superior to the F-22 because one was built for air dominance, the other, air to ground/attack.

I have a problem with these statements: the F-35 is still (and fairly early days) in test flight. IIRC only the B model has flown to this date. So how can it be known 'right now' that it is 'excellent at what it does'. It's not in service, it's testing, and in fact was grounded for several months after a serious electrical problem.

So you have a problem with it...we can't do anything about that. But...only the A model has flown to this date, not the B model...in fact the B model (BF-1) just came out of paint the other day....

http://attach.high-g.net/attachments/f08_29642_114.jpg

It cannot be known right now without validating all the data in flight test. But, being that it was designed for what I was saying, and the success of the F-22A...I don't think I'm off the mark here.
 
connies4ever
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:41 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 17):
So you have a problem with it...we can't do anything about that. But...only the A model has flown to this date, not the B model...in fact the B model (BF-1) just came out of paint the other day....

OK, my bad. A, not B. Not enough coffee at 5:30 AM. But the point is, the damn thing is a _prototype_ . The F-35 has not _proven_ or _demonstrated_ a single thing in terms of combat capability. That may, or may not, come.

UH60FtRucker was right.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
checksixx
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Thu May 01, 2008 1:16 am



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 18):
But the point is, the damn thing is a _prototype_ . The F-35 has not _proven_ or _demonstrated_ a single thing in terms of combat capability. That may, or may not, come.

Agreed...if we all want to be really techical none of the following aircraft have proved a single thing in terms of combat capability:

F-22A
Gripen
Typhoon
Rafale
F-35 Series (some not built yet)

The true test is where the metal meets the meat in wartime conditions...personally, I think the world has enough problems and I'd rather not see them tested.
 
connies4ever
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Thu May 01, 2008 10:08 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 19):
Agreed...if we all want to be really techical none of the following aircraft have proved a single thing in terms of combat capability:

F-22A
Gripen
Typhoon
Rafale
F-35 Series (some not built yet)


I would, say, however, that the Raptor is in fact in front-line service now, and in essentially war-game exercises has been more than just 'effective' , it's been overwhelming - at least from what I have read of the Alaska-centred exercises.

Typhoon just entering service, perhaps not yet enough base data to judge. Rafale, not enough of them. Gripen, I just don't know. But it's a sexy little beast.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
checksixx
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Thu May 01, 2008 1:55 pm

True...I was just going for actual wartime use...BTW, has Eurofighter been deployed yet? I thought it was going to Afghanistan?
 
baroque
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Fri May 02, 2008 5:05 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 21):
True...I was just going for actual wartime use...BTW, has Eurofighter been deployed yet? I thought it was going to Afghanistan?

Well they seem to have been forecast to be in operations their in "spring" - as the article was written in Oct 2007, that presumably means by spring 2008, so anyone there should keep a sharp look out! But I could not find a report of it actually having flown in combat.

However, you raise an interesting question. Afghanistan hardly demands the F-22 but if it did would it in fact be flown there, and - shock horror - what if one fell for whatever reason in Indian territory.

Or in other words, is the F22 effectively so precious that it is too much of a risk to use it.

I am reminded at the dumb way the British flew the H2S centimetric radar in IIRC Stirlings over Germany and duly lost one on its first flight. Apart from coastal Hamburg it was hardly a determinant and by doing that they "told" the Germans how they had been catching U-boats by surprise for some months in the Bay of Biscay.

So does the US have a bit of a dilemma with the F22, you might not want to use it just where you might need it?
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Sun May 04, 2008 1:56 am

I remember hearing that Canada was interested in the F-35. Have any commitments been made?


Thanks
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Sun May 04, 2008 2:11 am

Well I just found this while searching for info

http://www.forces.gc.ca/admmat/dgiip/jsf_e.asp

Looks like there's a decent amount of Canadian involvment. Hopefully that turns into several orders for Canada too.
 
Alien
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Sun May 04, 2008 2:14 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
So does the US have a bit of a dilemma with the F22, you might not want to use it just where you might need it?

Why would you need to use it in a place like Afghanistan where A-10s and Harriers are of more use? Is there a significant A2A threat we where not told about? Do the Taliban have previously undisclosed S-400 SAMs?

The reason why Rafale has been sent and Tiffie may be sent is for much the same reason F-15s and B1s are being used. To show usefulness. A further reason to field Rafale and Typhoon in theater is to demonstrate to potential buyers real combat capability. Raptor is not for sale so there is no need for the marketing demonstration.
 
baroque
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Sun May 04, 2008 2:34 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 25):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
So does the US have a bit of a dilemma with the F22, you might not want to use it just where you might need it?

Why would you need to use it in a place like Afghanistan where A-10s and Harriers are of more use? Is there a significant A2A threat we where not told about? Do the Taliban have previously undisclosed S-400 SAMs?

You are missing part of the point of my question. It does not matter where, or how and F-22 came to earth, if it was in less than friendly territory, the US apparently would have a problem over all the secret kit that is supposed to be all over it like a rash. You would not even need it to be shot down, just crash.

The question was how much is a wish to avoid that going to restrict the use of the F-22. It occurs to me that if it is so precious, even your best allies cannot be trusted with it, would you risk your enemies getting hold even of the bits of one?

As I noted, Britain might have been wise not to let H2S fall into German hands as it was far more valuable in the U-boat war than in using it on over land raids and then losing a copy on its first raid. It appears without a copy, the Germans would have been years to figure out the cavity magnetron. Also at that stage the PPI had not dawned on them either.
 
checksixx
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Sun May 04, 2008 9:37 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
However, you raise an interesting question. Afghanistan hardly demands the F-22 but if it did would it in fact be flown there, and - shock horror - what if one fell for whatever reason in Indian territory.

Well certainly we wouldn't need to send them over there with no major AtA threat. Now I could see it happen as a 'keep your hand out of the cookie jar' message to Iran. The Raptor is effective with the SDB's but as everyone here knows, most engagements over there warrant LGB's. Of course the F-15E has been using SDB's now for awhile, though I'm unaware of how successful it has been.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
It occurs to me that if it is so precious, even your best allies cannot be trusted with it, would you risk your enemies getting hold even of the bits of one?

It's not really a question of trust, but rather like you stated...risk of loss or theft of information.
 
baroque
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RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Mon May 05, 2008 2:53 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 27):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 26):
It occurs to me that if it is so precious, even your best allies cannot be trusted with it, would you risk your enemies getting hold even of the bits of one?

It's not really a question of trust, but rather like you stated...risk of loss or theft of information.

So the lack of a direct answer to the question suggests that indeed, use of the F22 outside the US is likely to be limited by fears of losing one and hence its secrets.

So with all due respect, it seems that this is another factor that needs to be added to the would this beat that contest. And that factor is, would we risk losing one "over there". And I assume that Iran would be close to the top of the list of prohibited terrain. Especially as a crashed F-22 in Iran would be knee deep in Chinese analysts within the hour.

It tends to push the utility of unsophisticated pretenders such as the Rafale, EF and Bug up the list of assets. Presumably, if Aus were ever to be able to purchase the F-22, the same would apply.

And that scales down to the F-35, is that so secret that its use would also be restricted. Could we, for example entertain the possibility of accidentally "donating" one to the Indonesians? Extreme stealth seems to have some strong disadvantages. I am tempted to ask if the real reason they are stealthy is because they are kept hidden, but that would be naughty so I will not do that.  Confused  angel 
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Mon May 05, 2008 3:56 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
So the lack of a direct answer to the question suggests that indeed, use of the F22 outside the US is likely to be limited by fears of losing one and hence its secrets.

No, two people just told you why the Raptor would not be used in Afghanistan or Iraq, but for your benefit I will spell it out very plainly again. The reason Raptor is not being used in Iraq or Afghanistan right now is that the situation does not warrant it and there are other assets in place that perform the types of missions likely to be flown in these two situations better and cheaper.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
And I assume that Iran would be close to the top of the list of prohibited terrain. Especially as a crashed F-22 in Iran would be knee deep in Chinese analysts within the hour.

Whatever gave you that idea. If it is needed there it would be used.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
Could we, for example entertain the possibility of accidentally "donating" one to the Indonesians? Extreme stealth seems to have some strong disadvantages.

I think you are reading entirely to much in to this. Airplanes get shot down so what. I suspect you are either extraordinarily ignorant when it comes to this subject or you are just trolling.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue May 06, 2008 2:40 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 29):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
Could we, for example entertain the possibility of accidentally "donating" one to the Indonesians? Extreme stealth seems to have some strong disadvantages.

I think you are reading entirely to much in to this. Airplanes get shot down so what. I suspect you are either extraordinarily ignorant when it comes to this subject or you are just trolling.

Simply reacting to the obsession about secrecy. You will recall that there is still uncertainty about how much access to codes the UK will receive in spite of its extensive funding of the F-35.

Your explanation about the lack of use of the Raptor in Afghanistan is both defensive and ingenuous. There may be other suitable planes, but if it is such a wonderful weapon why not use it? After all, systems seem to need to be debugged in real situations. It makes a contrast to the UK and the EF. No doubt Harriers would work fine too, or Tornadoes.

I probably am ignorant about the topic, but to which particular aspect of my ignorance are you referring.

BTW, nobody has explained to me yet how the exhaust plumes from the F-22 are invisible. Attenuated they may be but invisible, I rather doubt it.

Instead of sneering from above, how about some real information?
 
checksixx
Posts: 1148
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:39 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Tue May 06, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
I probably am ignorant about the topic, but to which particular aspect of my ignorance are you referring.

Well for what I was discussing as far as Raptor use, which Alien hinted at again for you...you don't seem to know much about air warfare. Not a big deal as there are many books out there about the subject. I would suggest a good book on both U.S. air warfare, U.K. air warfare and Israeli air warfare...although the Israeli Air Force isn't much in the way of experienced any more. Bottom line is...when you own the sky, you don't have to put up the best aircraft to keep it that way. Why spend all that money just to say we flew Raptor's over Iraq?
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed May 07, 2008 7:55 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 31):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
I probably am ignorant about the topic, but to which particular aspect of my ignorance are you referring.

Well for what I was discussing as far as Raptor use, which Alien hinted at again for you...you don't seem to know much about air warfare.

Air superiority I understand and the ability to use second line aircraft in areas of lower threat. I suspect most would just about have the capacity to do that. But neither of you is answering directly the question "will the use of the Raptor be curtailed by concerns over keeping secure its much advertised secret features". We know that B-2s are not commonly based overseas.

So which particular part of air warfare do you suppose is holding me back in understanding the F-22 and F-35?

BTW still no explanation of how the F-22 hides its hot exhaust plume.

Pip pip.
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed May 07, 2008 8:17 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
what if one fell for whatever reason in Indian territory.

Actually F-22s falling on Indian territory wouldn't be a problem, but if they fell on Pakistan (which is more likely)..then it would be a problem.
אני תומך בישראל
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed May 07, 2008 8:37 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 33):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 22):
what if one fell for whatever reason in Indian territory.

Actually F-22s falling on Indian territory wouldn't be a problem, but if they fell on Pakistan (which is more likely)..then it would be a problem.

Glad someone picked up on the double entendre Springbok. At least with a fallen bird of prey (or is it pray?) in Indian territory, the bits would go into their own cloning factories whereas falling next door, would be a quick path to China. But if the things are so valuable, almost anywhere could in effect be "indian" territory. I dare say that even stately Adelaide has a few of that sort of "indians".
 
checksixx
Posts: 1148
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:39 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed May 07, 2008 1:39 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 32):
Air superiority I understand and the ability to use second line aircraft in areas of lower threat. I suspect most would just about have the capacity to do that. But neither of you is answering directly the question "will the use of the Raptor be curtailed by concerns over keeping secure its much advertised secret features". We know that B-2s are not commonly based overseas.

So which particular part of air warfare do you suppose is holding me back in understanding the F-22 and F-35?

BTW still no explanation of how the F-22 hides its hot exhaust plume.

Pip pip.

Will the use of it be limited to keep it secret? Operationally, no. It will be used when necessesary. B-2's are regularly based oversea's and have been rotating out for quite some time.

I was speaking about air warfare as a whole in general...you brought it up, not me.

Well the rear end of the F-22 is also LO...not sure how else you could really hide it, but other than being right behind it, you can't put a sensor up its pipes.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed May 07, 2008 1:47 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 35):
Will the use of it be limited to keep it secret? Operationally, no.

Thanks, that is what I was asking.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 35):
Well the rear end of the F-22 is also LO...not sure how else you could really hide it, but other than being right behind it, you can't put a sensor up its pipes.

That was my point, it has to be possible to detect the plume. Even possible to find a plume, track it to the hot end, find no radar return and say "Aha, likely an F-22". I know the read end is LO, but as has been remarked in this thread, unless you turn the engines off, or a method of propelling aircraft that does not depend on heat engines, there WILL be a heat signature in the exhaust. The same must go for the F-35.
 
F27Friendship
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed May 07, 2008 7:32 pm

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 35):
Well the rear end of the F-22 is also LO...not sure how else you could really hide it, but other than being right behind it, you can't put a sensor up its pipes.

well... since today modern sensors are able to pick up heat generated from skin friction of the air, that is pretty fantastic what you are claiming there. I have seen pics of a B2 locked with an IR sensor.

BTW, there are certain angles on the F22 where it lights up on radar as well

[Edited 2008-05-07 12:32:52]
 
checksixx
Posts: 1148
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:39 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Wed May 07, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 37):
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 35):
Well the rear end of the F-22 is also LO...not sure how else you could really hide it, but other than being right behind it, you can't put a sensor up its pipes.

well... since today modern sensors are able to pick up heat generated from skin friction of the air, that is pretty fantastic what you are claiming there. I have seen pics of a B2 locked with an IR sensor.

BTW, there are certain angles on the F22 where it lights up on radar as well

Well I was meaning a heat seeking missile sensor actually. I think we all know you can track hot surfaces with IR sensors...seeing how its been done on the ground, on the sea and in the air for many, many years. Also, who ever impied the Raptor wasn't visible on RADAR?? Or the F-117? Or the B-2? If anyone thinks they're invisible on RADAR, think again. No secret there F27, so whats your point?
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Thu May 08, 2008 5:18 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 36):
there WILL be a heat signature in the exhaust. The same must go for the F-35.

Now put something in a fighter that can find it, track it and target it. Good luck. Remember you need to view it from certain angles and IRST has a very small FOV. Also keep in mind that a jet exhaust plume is not that great when not in afterburner. It does not get talked about much but one of the biggest advantages of supercruise is that it contributes to IR stealth.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 37):
I have seen pics of a B2 locked with an IR sensor.

By a Rapier SAM battery at less than 1/3 of a mile range. It's a wonder they don't just retire those bombers now.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Thu May 08, 2008 6:21 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 39):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 36):
there WILL be a heat signature in the exhaust. The same must go for the F-35.

Now put something in a fighter that can find it, track it and target it. Good luck. Remember you need to view it from certain angles and IRST has a very small FOV. Also keep in mind that a jet exhaust plume is not that great when not in afterburner. It does not get talked about much but one of the biggest advantages of supercruise is that it contributes to IR stealth.

I think that this has been invented and it is called a radio. That is a ground station scans for suspicious heat plumes and advises fighters under its control

Quoting Alien (Reply 39):
It does not get talked about much but one of the biggest advantages of supercruise is that it contributes to IR stealth.

I would have thought it the major advantage for fighters with better fuel consumption a secondary consideration. When Concorde was gaily supercruising across the skies every day, nobody worried about supercruise, but here it is, new and magical. Sheesh!!

BTW, anyone know if the total of supersonic hours from (all) other planes has exceeded those of Concorde yet?
 
F27Friendship
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

RE: It's Official :Australia Chooses The F-35

Thu May 08, 2008 8:03 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 38):
Well I was meaning a heat seeking missile sensor actually.

modern seakers (fired in range at an F-22) will have no problem hitting it. It won't even need the exhaust. Getting in a position to fire an IR missile at it (meaning fairly close range) is the hard part. BTW, modern seekers wouldn't be fooled by a flare either. They "see" the contours of the aircraft.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 38):
Well I was meaning a heat seeking missile sensor actually. I think we all know you can track hot surfaces with IR sensors...seeing how its been done on the ground, on the sea and in the air for many, many years. Also, who ever impied the Raptor wasn't visible on RADAR?? Or the F-117? Or the B-2? If anyone thinks they're invisible on RADAR, think again. No secret there F27, so whats your point?

you misunderstood. Brittish WWII radar (extremely low frequence and thus extremely long wavelength) would pick everything up (accuracy is just poor as hell). What I said was, that from certain angles, it's RCS is very high (not in the marble range), similar to a legacy fighter RCS.

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