addd
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Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:23 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-five-fighter-manufacturers.html

DATE:16/06/08
SOURCE:Flight International

Brazil issues 120-aircraft request to five fighter manufacturers
By Craig Hoyle

Brazil has revived its delayed search for a next-generation multirole combat aircraft, and in early June issued requests for information to five bidders for its new F-X2 contest. Its initial requirement is for a batch of 36 fighters, although the total programme is for 120 aircraft to be delivered from 2014 until post-2020.

Bidders for the new contest have been restricted to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen NG (Next Generation) and the Sukhoi Su-35. The selected type will replace some of the Brazilian air force's Alenia/Embraer AMX ground-attack aircraft and its upgraded Northrop F-5 fighters, plus a recently acquired batch of ex-French air force Dassault Mirage 2000s.

Industry sources say the RFI requests the delivery of an "established, proven airframe" with supersonic performance, network connectivity and multirole capabilities. The document does not specify whether companies should offer an active electronically scanned array radar with the aircraft, but says both within- and beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles should be supplied.

The F-X2 programme also includes an offset requirement worth 100% of the total acquisition costs, with licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines requested during the life of the programme.

Brazil's earlier F-X fighter contest was abandoned in 2005 due to budgetary pressures, and the replacement project had been tipped for launch early this year. However, the defence ministry's new shortlist will come as a disappointment to Lockheed, which was interested in offering its F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Speaking earlier this month, Embraer officials said that unlike the previous contest, local industry will not be encouraged to partner directly with the bidding F-X2 companies, and that the Brazilian government and air force will instead head this part of the project.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:22 pm

I guess one question is — will this be an interim buy or long-term? Seems like a lot of countries are just biding their time until the F-35 comes online.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
dougbr2006
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:49 pm

I am really surprised that Embraer didn't't look into building their own strike fighter to fill this role, after all they have had the time and also experience with the AMX joint venture, surely home built would be cheaper and also good for the economy of the country too !

Also surely the USAF has some good condition low timers laying around in the desert to offer, also new high tech from the USA will have restrictions for Brazil, I can't remember the level of restrictions, but all aircraft supplied in the past ex USAF were degraded technology machines. Even the two blackhawks given to Brazil for drug patrilling had most of the high tech gear ripped out prior to delivery !!!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:43 am



Quoting Addd (Thread starter):
The F-X2 programme also includes an offset requirement worth 100% of the total acquisition costs, with licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines requested during the life of the programme.

Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.

Personally, I hope that somehow we end up with Rafales.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:26 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.

IIRC some of the building work on the Saudi Eurofighters (if it ever happens) will happen locally.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:53 am



Quoting Addd (Thread starter):

Bidders for the new contest have been restricted to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab Gripen NG (Next Generation) and the Sukhoi Su-35. The selected type will replace some of the Brazilian air force's Alenia/Embraer AMX ground-attack aircraft and its upgraded Northrop F-5 fighters, plus a recently acquired batch of ex-French air force Dassault Mirage 2000s.

It is curious that the Gripen NG is the lone single-engined entry among this batch of medium to heavy multirole fighters. The Falcon looks like a natural fit for the missions and aircraft to be replaced, and obsolescence in the F-16's case seems to be a lame excuse for there is also the F-35 from LM. Sanction concerns also do not fly, as the Gripen with a high US content and the Super Hornet are in the shortlist. It's almost as if a close decision on the most capable affordable offering is being avoided like in the Swiss contest.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10385.jpg
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10385.jpg

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10398.jpg
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10398.jpg

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
I guess one question is — will this be an interim buy or long-term? Seems like a lot of countries are just biding their time until the F-35 comes online.

The article stated that the 36 frames would just be the initial buy. The expected completion of the project after 2020, places it in the medium term.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):
Seems like a lot of countries are just biding their time until the F-35 comes online.

Of course, a lot of things could happen in the meantime. However, LockMart's F-16 and F-35 not being shortlisted for this competition doesn' paint a very rosy picture.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 4):
IIRC some of the building work on the Saudi Eurofighters (if it ever happens) will happen locally.

A broadly similar arrangement was offered to India.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...hter-bidders-make-submissions.html

Quote:
"EADS, representing the European consortium that manufactures the Eurofighter Typhoon, says: 'As part of our industrial co-operation offer, we invite India to become a member of the successful Eurofighter family. India is our partner of choice and we are interested in long-lasting political, industrial and military relations'."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
art
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:54 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Quoting Addd (Thread starter):
The F-X2 programme also includes an offset requirement worth 100% of the total acquisition costs, with licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines requested during the life of the programme.


Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.

I am sure that Eurofighter would be happy for local assembly of the Typhoon airframe but is it realistic to ask for local manufacture of all the major systems in the aircraft?
 
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N328KF
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:58 am



Quoting Art (Reply 6):
I am sure that Eurofighter would be happy for local assembly of the Typhoon airframe but is it realistic to ask for local manufacture of all the major systems in the aircraft?

The way 100% offset is achieved is that...well, say the value of the sale to Nation Y from Nation X is US$5bil. Nation X does not have to build the entire aircraft and all components there. Instead, Nation X may build enough of a certain component across more airframes than Nation Y is buying. This means that if Nation Y is buying 50 airframes, Nation X may achieve the offsets by simply having the rear fuselage of 200 airframes built by a manufacturer in Nation Y.

The offset doesn't even have to come from the same project. Nation X, home to a large multi-disciplined defense concern, may choose to build $5bil of tank hulls in Nation Y as part of the offset agreement. This could be the case if the original company from Nation X is the integrator of those tanks or even if the tanks are a product of another company from that nation.

It gets complicated, but the end result is that 100% offsets means that the offering company must spend as much as it takes in.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
art
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:09 am



Quoting N328KF (Reply 7):
The offset doesn't even have to come from the same project.

I understand from your post that this is a practical way of achieving offset but the Flight article refers to "licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines".
 
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N328KF
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:51 pm



Quoting Art (Reply 8):
I understand from your post that this is a practical way of achieving offset but the Flight article refers to "licensed manufacturing of the selected fighter's airframe, avionics and engines".

Then it sounds like the approach that I mentioned where you would give a Brazilian firm or firms the contract for components beyond that of just Brazilian airframes, so airframes of the same type for other nations.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:37 am

Update:

Bids from the three shortlisted manufacturers have been received.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ee-bids-for-f-x2-fighter-deal.html

Quote:
"Boeing, Dassault and Saab on 2 February submitted their responses to an October 2008 request for proposals for Brazil's F-X2 fighter procurement.

Respectively tendering proposals for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale F3+ and Gripen NG, the companies are contesting a $2.2 billion requirement for an initial batch of 36 aircraft. However, the F-X2 programme is expected to run well into the 2020s, with subsequent orders expected for a further 64-84 fighters."



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AirRyan
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:29 am

I'll be surprised if the Rafale F3+ doesn't win this one...
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:59 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 11):
I'll be surprised if the Rafale F3+ doesn't win this one...

I feel the same,don't know if it's good or bad that Gripen is the only single engine....Gripen would be perfect for a F-5 replacement but as you say,my guts says Rafale.
Link: http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelati...09/gripen_ng_tender_for_brazil.htm
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TGIF
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:13 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 10):
the companies are contesting a $2.2 billion requirement for an initial batch of 36 aircraft.



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 11):
I'll be surprised if the Rafale F3+ doesn't win this one...

I agree. It seems as Brazil and France have increased their cooperation lately and the Rafale seems like a logical continuation, unless they're looking to diversify.

$61M a piece shouldn't be a problem for SH and Gripen NG but are there any official quotations for the Rafale F3+? This is perhaps a non-problem since I'd guess Dassault would do anything to get an export customer. I'm sure Dassault wouldn't mind losing a couple of bucks in Brazil if it meant they would gain a whole lot more in India.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:04 pm

Update:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...2-fighter-program-04179/#more-4179

Quote:
"March 24/09: Dassault’s acquisition of a large stake in Thales led to Thales’ refusal to sell Saab the RBE2 AESA radar beyond the Gripen Demo stage. In response, Saab and SELEX Galileo sign an agreement to develop an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar for the JAS-39NG. The arrangement is initially aimed at Brazil’s fighter competition, where it leverages Selex Galileo’s strong pedigree equipping Brazil’s F-5BR fighters (Grifo-F radar) and AMX light attack jets (Scipio radar). Once integrated and proven, however, the AESA upgrade would be available to any Gripen customer."

Dassault is working hard to bolster its position in this contest. Not to be outdone, SAAB does some maneuverings of its own, after being denied by Thales.

Quote:
"Per Aviation Week’s March 10/09 report from Aero India, the radar will use a Vixen 500 AESA front end, with 'back end' modules from the existing PS-05/A. Using those back end modules simplifies integration, and also avoids the control issues inherent in American alternatives. As it happens, the 2 firms have a long history of radar partnerships. Ericsson (now Saab’s) partner on the original PS-05/A was Ferranti, which became GEC-Marconi, then BAE Systems, and now Selex Galileo. Selex was also Saab’s partner in the recent M-AESA R&D project."

It looks like this development has strenghtened Rafale's bid a bit, but at the same time, removed one uncertainty for the Gripen. It remains to be seen if the $2.2B budget would buy 36 twin-engined Rafales, or just be enough for 36 single-engined Gripen NGs - if that.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:29 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.

I don't know about that. Look at the issues India is having with Russia on thier aircraft carrier/Mig program.
What the...?
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:55 pm



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 15):
I don't know about that. Look at the issues India is having with Russia on thier aircraft carrier/Mig program.

I think Sukhoi has been able to really stand out among all the russian plane makers, so I wouldn't rule them out. And I'm pretty sure they have been able to learn a thing or two while having Boeing giving a bit of guidance in the SSJ program.

So, equaling Sukhoi to MiG its out of the question, IMHO.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:06 am

My point was concerning Russian industry in general, not Sukhoi in particular. The past decade has given us a plethora of Russian industrial horror stories.

The question is not whether or not the Russians can produce quality products, it is whether or not you can trust Russian companies to deliver what was promised.
What the...?
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:00 am



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
My point was concerning Russian industry in general, not Sukhoi in particular. The past decade has given us a plethora of Russian industrial horror stories.

The question is not whether or not the Russians can produce quality products, it is whether or not you can trust Russian companies to deliver what was promised.

True, but I think things need to be put in context as well. The carrier for example, has been pretty much neglected for who knows how long, and I don't think it was meant to be a full lenght deck carrier, so given the complexity of the project, I would have been surprised if it didn't face any kind of delay and going over budget.

And in the end, delays and budget overruns are not a russian thing alone. Just ask Bell.

Anyway, I do think that Sukhoi at least can deliver on its promises. The other russian companies...well...
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:12 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 14):

It looks like this development has strenghtened Rafale's bid a bit

Would you say the Thales RBE2 have greater potential than a Selex/Saab AESA? Selex and Saab aren't exactly beginners when it comes to AESA technology and I'm sure the end result will please Brazil or any future Gripen costumer.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 16):
I wouldn't rule them out

Rule them out of what? Sukhoi weren't among the shortlisted and despite what the minister of Def said in the news some month ago, they, EF or F-16 aren't coming back into the evaluation. This is between Boeing, Dassault and Saab. Final technical evaluation has just begun:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...uating-competing-fighter-bids.html
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:45 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 19):
Would you say the Thales RBE2 have greater potential than a Selex/Saab AESA? Selex and Saab aren't exactly beginners when it comes to AESA technology and I'm sure the end result will please Brazil or any future Gripen costumer.

The advantage is not with the radar capability itself but the headstart that the RBE2 enjoys.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 19):
This is between Boeing, Dassault and Saab. Final technical evaluation has just begun:

This is where Boeing's strength will come to the fore.....

Quote:
"they will be visited and evaluated as to their industrial and logistic installations, maintenance workshops, laboratories for the development of systems, and operational squadrons.

[.....]

During this process, the Project Management Group maintained its focus on the aspects of the competing bids as regards commercial, technical, operational, logistic, offset-related, technological and technology-transfer issues."


.....perhaps with the "technology transfer" card being its weakest suit.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:33 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 5):
It's almost as if a close decision on the most capable affordable offering is being avoided like in the Swiss contest.

Switzerland did not avoid anything reasonable. It would not be logical to include a looser of the nineties-contest again (the Gripen lost too in the nineties, but was not proven enough at that time).
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:08 am



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 21):
Switzerland did not avoid anything reasonable. It would not be logical to include a looser of the nineties-contest again (the Gripen lost too in the nineties, but was not proven enough at that time).

We've been over this in the F-5 replacement thread.....

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/79999/

I refer you back to Replies 58, 67, 73, 80 and 83. The simple answer is -- it was a different aircraft that lost then, to a different fighter, under different mission parameters. More damning were reports of JAS-39 not meeting IAF requirements. I highly doubt the proposed Super Viper would yield anything to a Gripen NG.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f16/f16in/index.html


lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/aeronautics/products/f16/f-16in-1.jpg

If anything, current offerings may even need to be "dumbed-down" if only F-5 type missions would be all those will have to do for their forecast life. I had even granted that the Gripen was well suited for that requirement - but not in this case. However, we're dragging this thread off-topic, now that the Falcon is already eliminated. Here's something to right the course.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ighter-programme-ready-to-fly.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:06 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ighter-programme-ready-to-fly.html

"However, its single engine might deter the Brazilians should they seek to diversify their inventory and operating capability. The engine is a General Electric F414G, similar to the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet's F414-400."

What if the FAB pulls a Ching-kuo with the Gripen together with Embraer?  duck 

That would look interesting. Much pricier though.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:11 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
What if the FAB pulls a Ching-kuo with the Gripen together with Embraer? duck

That would look interesting. Much pricier though.

That's plausible -- joint production would gain Embraer valuable experience making modern jet fighters while SAAB gets to enjoy lower manufacturing costs and Embraer's big, established civilian operations --- and perhaps, wider global exposure and more sales as a result (especially in an economic climate such as this). In a limited way, they had already done it with the ISR variants of the E-145. And it's a long, expensive road even to a medium, multirole fighter only. However, the possibility that Embraer might overwhelm them could give SAAB some pause.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:07 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
Might as well save the trouble and just pay a visit to Moscow. This requirement makes it extremely difficult for other manufacturers.

Personally, I hope that somehow we end up with Rafales.

I wouldn't say that the US offered the same deal to india with the Superhornet and I would expect them to do the same with Brazil. The rafales would be a good choice also, have your people take a trip to algeria and ask them how they liked their russian aircraft they returned!!.

If I was brazil I would ask boeing on the availiblity of the new F-15 silent eagle looks like a very fine machine they would be more than a match for Hugo's Flankers.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
The question is not whether or not the Russians can produce quality products, it is whether or not you can trust Russian companies to deliver what was promised.

Not to sure about that ask algeria how they liked the quality of the MIG-29's they shipped back to the Russians, even the Chinese has some concerns over the airframe quality on the SU-27's they recieved so actuallyu being able to produce a quality aircraft is up in the air (no pun intended).
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:38 pm

Latest news is that there's three teams of pilots and engineers heading to the US, France and Sweden to test the aircraft. Expectation is that we will know who the winner is in July.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:36 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 19):
Rule them out of what? Sukhoi weren't among the shortlisted and despite what the minister of Def said in the news some month ago, they, EF or F-16 aren't coming back into the evaluation.

I meant it as not to rule them out as manufacturer. I'm very aware they are out of the FX-2.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 25):
If I was brazil I would ask boeing on the availiblity of the new F-15 silent eagle looks like a very fine machine they would be more than a match for Hugo's Flankers.

The chances of a conflict between Brazil and Venezuela are quite slim, contrary to what you might believe, or wish.

Colombia and Venezuela is a more feasible one, and has always been for the past 50 years.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 25):
even the Chinese has some concerns over the airframe quality on the SU-27's they recieved so actuallyu being able to produce a quality aircraft is up in the air (no pun intended).

Airframes delivered over 8 years ago, and things were quite different back then. I've seen one of the newly built Su-30MK2 and F-16 next to each other, and there isn't much of a difference, at least regarding the exterior quality of the plane.

As for other things, well, at least even the oldest Flankers aren't breaking in half in mid air like some other bird out there.
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:03 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 22):
The simple answer is -- it was a different aircraft that lost then, to a different fighter, under different mission parameters.

If the F-16 got better since then by an amount X then the F-18, Gripen, Rafale got better by more than X. In any ranking surely the F-16 would not be in a better position now than then.
There is nothing that allowed the F-16 to make up more ground than the others.
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Apr 06, 2009 5:17 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
The advantage is not with the radar capability itself but the headstart that the RBE2 enjoys.

Yea, can't argue against that. And they'll be able to demonstrate it during the trials, if they fixed the hiccups from the Swiss evaluation. Not sure if the Gripen NG Demonstrator got it's AESA yet.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
.....perhaps with the "technology transfer" card being its weakest suit.

Yes and this is where I think Saab will excel, with successful deals transferred to Hungary, Czech republic and South Africa.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
What if the FAB pulls a Ching-kuo with the Gripen together with Embraer?

As Devilfish pointed out, Embraer and Saab have been working together with the E-145 Erieye. Hopefully they can develop this further as long as it does not compete with the Saab 2000 Erieye.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):
I meant it as not to rule them out as manufacturer. I'm very aware they are out of the FX-2.

Just wanted to make sure  Smile And I agree, they shouldn't be rules out as a manufacturer. The Su-30 and Su-35 are to be reckon with IMO.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:18 am



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 28):
If the F-16 got better since then by an amount X then the F-18, Gripen, Rafale got better by more than X. In any ranking surely the F-16 would not be in a better position now than then.

Except that there is no assurance that the competition got better by more than the quantity "X".

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 28):
There is nothing that allowed the F-16 to make up more ground than the others.

You are grossly underestimating the amount of development made possible by the sale of thousands of Fighting Falcons. None of those you mentioned had anything anywhere close to that - otherwise, those would already be winning big orders left and right. The F-16 arguably, still provide the most bang for the buck. I say "most" as Russian examples probably give the "biggest" -- but for how long? And those too are beginning to get expensive.

But as the article said, Brazil is prepared to spend even double the currrent budget. Maybe they're looking at matching the capability of possible threats with quantity of their own. Or, they might do as PPVRA hinted, and co-design/produce a new, twin-engine, medium/heavy fighter. Well, the Draken and Viggen (though single-engined) could qualify as medium, if not heavy, so SAAB certainly had the experience along that line, and also of advance aerodynamics and avionics with the Gripen.

What's left are the powerplants, and although Volvo was licensed by Pratt for the Draken and Viggen, and by GE for the Gripen, I don't know if Volvo is independently capable of developing its own, or if export release for a new competitor would be granted, be it from Pratt, GE or Eurojet. Then, there're the time and cost factors. The result could literally be like the Ching-Kuo -- forever wanting the engines it never had.

And that's for conventional NG fighter only --- when the world is already looking at stealth.
The quick and dirty solution might be as Wvsuperhornet suggested - if hangups could be overcome.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/f-15se/images/28535/boeing-f-15se.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...5se/images/28535/boeing-f-15se.jpg

But that's simplifying it like mad!  crazy 
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Acheron
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:34 pm

And then, there is this one:

Quote:
Brazil could make Russian new-generation fighters under license

MOSCOW, April 7 (RIA Novosti) - Russia may allow Brazil to produce its fifth-generation fighters under a license in the future, a senior Russian government official said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

"We are discussing with the well-known Brazilian company Embraer the transfer of technology and the construction of facilities for the future licensed production of the aircraft, including the fifth-generation fighter," said Alexander Fomin, deputy director of the Federal Service on Military-Technical Cooperation.

Russia's advanced multirole fighter is being developed by the Sukhoi aircraft maker, part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under a preliminary intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20090407/120955182.html


So, either the brazilians plan to cancel the competition(again) or this competition won't supply front line fighters.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:31 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
So, either the brazilians plan to cancel the competition(again) or this competition won't supply front line fighters.

Or, the Russians are trying very hard to get back into the game after being eliminated. From the link.....

Quote:
"MOSCOW, April 7 (RIA Novosti) - Russia may allow Brazil to produce its fifth-generation fighters under a license in the future, a senior Russian government official said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

'We are discussing with the well-known Brazilian company Embraer the transfer of technology and the construction of facilities for the future licensed production of the aircraft, including the fifth-generation fighter,' said Alexander Fomin, deputy director of the Federal Service on Military-Technical Cooperation."


Odd that licensed production of a candidate would be discussed after its elimination. And did Brazil actually ask for co-production of the as yet putative 5G fighter, or was Russia making an unsolicited offer?

Quote:
"Meanwhile, Russia's Su-35 jet fighter is participating in an ongoing tender for the delivery of over 100 fighters to the Brazilian Air Force.

'We are actively participating in the Brazilian tender, which has been reopened'."


No news whatsoever that F-X2 closed so how could it be reopened? And weren't they informed that the Su-35 was not shortlisted?  sarcastic  Something fishy here.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:51 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):
No news whatsoever that F-X2 closed so how could it be reopened? And weren't they informed that the Su-35 was not shortlisted? sarcastic Something fishy here.

This is not the first time the PAK-FA and "Brazil" have been mentioned in the same news piece. Actually, it happened several times a few months ago so something is indeed going on, but I doubt it is fishy.

It actually kind of makes sense. Grippen wins(like it did in the first F-X) and replaces all the F-5 and AMX, while at the same time the Brazilians can join and produce a 5th Gen fighter that won't be as castrated and watered down as the export variant of the F-35, to become the new front line fighter for the future.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:40 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 33):
This is not the first time the PAK-FA and "Brazil" have been mentioned in the same news piece. Actually, it happened several times a few months ago so something is indeed going on, but I doubt it is fishy.

But not the "Su-35 and Brazil" in the same breath -- as I take it to be "the aircraft" that was being referred to in the article.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 33):
while at the same time the Brazilians can join and produce a 5th Gen fighter that won't be as castrated and watered down as the export variant of the F-35, to become the new front line fighter for the future.

A lot of us here were under the impression that this tender was for an immediate frontline fighter need. Going back to your previous post.....

Quoting Acheron (Reply 31):
this competition won't supply front line fighters.

.....I'm now at a loss on how to classify the Eurofighter, Flanker, Rafale and Super Hornet which were entered (surely the RFP explained?) for those are as "frontline" as you could get. confused  It was the reason the original lineup was changed. Bore out my question at the start of the thread. Could have spared everybody else and themselves the trouble had they simply asked SAAB and Sukhoi for quotations instead!
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:01 am

Well, to be honest with you, we can only assume what's going on right now in the F-X2 competition but at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if everything turns out to be more of a sham and the winner is already decided.

Besides, like I mentioned before, the previous F-X was won by the Grippen but for whatever reason they cancelled it and bought 12 used Mirage 2000. If that's not a political move, I don't know what it is.

And I don't think the whole process has been very transparent.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 34):
It was the reason the original lineup was changed. Bore out my question at the start of the thread. Could have spared everybody else and themselves the trouble had they simply asked SAAB and Sukhoi for quotations instead!

Yes, but then that would mean less money for the lobbyist and other people, looking at it from the dark side.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:29 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):
The chances of a conflict between Brazil and Venezuela are quite slim, contrary to what you might believe, or wish.

Not wishing or implying anything at. The US has always favored a 1 specific country in a region to be a power and an ally. venezuela before Chavez took over use to be that now it just seems like they are looking at Brazil to be that power, they seem to be the more stable country and have alot more cash to do that, the columbians dont have the funds for a large airforce. Not implying they should go to war, but more of a counter balance between them and the US.

Colombia and Venezuela is a more feasible one, and has always been for the past 50 years.

I know but judging from the counter insurgency that columbia has done at will in venezuelan territory Hugo may want to think twice about attacking them.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 27):
As for other things, well, at least even the oldest Flankers aren't breaking in half in mid air like some other bird out there.

You must not read much news about 2 or 3 flankers a year crash at airshows. The f-15's have an excuse high hours and being old, most flankers have not been in service that long or have very low flight hours, big difference.
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:57 am



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 36):
I know but judging from the counter insurgency that columbia has done at will in venezuelan territory Hugo may want to think twice about attacking them.

They have?. Sorry, care to tell me where, or maybe you are confusing Ecuador with Venezuela?.
And in the end, it doesn't mean anything because Venezuelan troops cross as easily to the colombian side of the border. Thats the nature of it when most of the border is covered with dense jungles.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 36):
You must not read much news about 2 or 3 flankers a year crash at airshows.

And how many of them have been caused by structural fatigue or spars not up to par?.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 36):
The f-15's have an excuse high hours and being old, most flankers have not been in service that long or have very low flight hours, big difference.

Yeah, built with spars not up to specifications.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:33 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 29):
Yes and this is where I think Saab will excel, with successful deals transferred to Hungary, Czech republic and South Africa.

so what did they get for buying 15 frames?? I only know the offer for the Netherlands which would include buying 85 frames wasn't really impressive...
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:54 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 38):
so what did they get for buying 15 frames??


When South Africa chose the Gripen platform for its future defence, it did in many ways mark a new beginning. Through technology transfer, education and the formation of two new defence and aerospace companies - Saab Grintek and Denel Saab Aerostructures - the procurement of the Gripen system has enabled growth in the South African economy.

The industrial sector is just one example that has benefitted through long-term partnership with Saab. Saab established a relationship with Tshwane South College, the aim being to support technological development by, for example, introducing new technology, training lecturers and supporting students to increase employability. Recently, Tshwane South College received a Ministerial Award in recognition of the project and its importance for South Africa’s future.

Opportunities for Central Europe

In Central Europe flourishing new businesses have grown, not least in part to the relationships that exist with Saab through the procurement of the Gripen aircraft. In the Czech Republic, for example, the brake disc manufacturer BAK has doubled its production since entering Saab’s industrial cooperation programme.

Pacific Direct, a cosmetics manufacturer, has doubled both its business turnover and the number of employees since 2006 - also thanks to the support and expertise provided by Saab.

As a direct partner in the Gripen programme, Walter Engines has increased production as well as turnover, whilst at the same time reducing costs.

In Hungary, several new and additional production capacities have been established in the framework of Saab’s industrial cooperation programme. The greenfield investments cover various industries such as the new production plants that have been set-up in the white-goods and automotive arenas.

Plans for the future
Interest in procuring the Gripen System has never been stronger. Saab is proactively working to identify and develop industrial cooperation opportunities in many markets throughout Europe and the World. As part of this, Saab has signed cooperation agreements with leading companies to generate business values as part of future contractual agreemen.

www.gripen.com
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Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:33 am

Here we go again.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ew-hope-for-fx-2-fighter-deal.html

Quote:
"Current economic conditions could force the Brazilian Air Force to redefine and delay the FX-2 contract decision, with the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter potentially re-emerging as a viable competitor, a senior Lockheed executive tells FlightGlobal.com

[.....]

Neither the F-35 nor a Russian fighter are among the three FX-2 finalists selected by the FAB in September, which are the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen.

In fact, the FAB previously rejected Lockheed’s bid based on the F-16, as well as proposals by the Eurofighter Typhoon and Sukhoi Su-35. However, Lockheed’s delegation traveling to attend LAAD believes economic factors could substantially redefine the FAB’s requirement for a multi-role fighter.

Under this scenario, the FAB would instead acquire a mid-life update for a portion of its existing fleet as an interim solution, Covais says. That would allow the air force to re-open the FX-2 competition after the global economy rebounds. Such a delay could allow the F-35 back into the competition. In the first round of discussions for FX-2, Covais says, Brazilian officials asked for information about the F-35."


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-35A_Frontal_ATK_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...mages/AIR_F-35A_Frontal_ATK_lg.jpg

Might as well settle for a mere mockup.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrei Bezmylov



[Edited 2009-04-13 17:48:33]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:29 am

I just read on a Brazilian "Airliner.net" that the FAB has asked Embraer to "start talking" to the prospective companies. The news story is linked below (in Portuguese only) however it is not from a magazine I know anything about:


http://www.revistaasas.com.br/index.php?ASA=show_news&id=884&LE=atual

[Edited 2009-04-13 21:34:29]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:13 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 33):
It actually kind of makes sense. Grippen wins(like it did in the first F-X) and replaces all the F-5 and AMX, while at the same time the Brazilians can join and produce a 5th Gen fighter that won't be as castrated and watered down as the export variant of the F-35, to become the new front line fighter for the future.

I also think this makes some sense, if the economy allows it. The F-X2 deal stays at the 36 frames and instead of using the option to buy 120-something more F-X2 fighters, the money i spent on a larger 5th-gen fighter.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 38):
so what did they get for buying 15 frames??

Drifting a bit OT here... Don't know where you get the number 15 from. The number of Gripens delivered/waiting to be delivered is 60 (66 if you count the Thai option soon to be realized)

As for the "what did they get" part, SAS A340 gave you a good summary IMO.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 38):
I only know the offer for the Netherlands which would include buying 85 frames wasn't really impressive...

Have the Dutch DoD sent out an RFP/RBI with a request for an offset offer?? Perhaps if they bothered, they'd get a real answer. I think Saab have been given the Dutch more than they requested and been given nothing in return. If they have abandoned this ship, it's about time.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:15 pm

If the Brazilians open the competition to the F-35 this will be another huge blow to the Rafale. Rafale is considered the front runner here and Sarko took pains to tout its advantages the last time he met with Lula.

Given the recent rejection of the French fighter by India, the French are counting on this deal, along with Libya and Switzerland to reverse Rafale's sagging fortunes.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:44 am

Update:

Best and final offers submitted by the F-X2 competing companies.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...lian-f_x2-fighter-competition.html

Quote:
"Observing the policy of transparency in the selection process of the new multirole fighter aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), the so-called F-X2 project, the Air Force command (COMAER) today, 12th of June, 2009, completed the collection of information from the companies participating in the selection process, (in alphabetical order) Boeing with the F-18 E/F Super Hornet, Dassault with the Rafale, and Saab with the Gripen NG, for final evaluation.

[......]

Finally, COMAERO reaffirms its commitment to continue, exempt of any preferential judgment, the aircraft selection process based on operational, logistic, commercial, technical, offset, technological, industrial technology transfer criteria to allow to the best choice. This will ensure that the FAB and Brazil in a position of prominence on the world-wide aeronautical scene, and will make possible, in medium and long terms, the qualification of the civil industrial parks and the development of the Brazilian aeronautical industry."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:28 pm

Ok,soon there probably will be a decision....
Brasilia is expected to announce in September which shortlisted company -- Boeing of the United States, Dassault of France, or Saab of Sweden -- will supply 36 combat aircraft to replace Brazil's aging fleet of 12 French-made Mirage-2000 jets.

The procurement is part of a $15 billion plan by Latin America's biggest economy to update and expand its military capabilities to face 21st century threats in the region, and to protect precious resources in its vast territory.

France's Rafale F3 fighter is seen as the favorite of Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, in large part because it is the only bid that includes an offer to share technology with Brazil.

The Latin American country is keen to give its own Embraer aircraft-making group the knowledge needed to make its own high-tech fighters in the future.

But the Rafale is also the most expensive by far of the offers on the table, the Folha de S. Paulo newspaper noted Sunday.

The newspaper said the estimated price-per-plane of the Rafale is around $130 million, not including weapons and support.

Boeing's multi-role F/A-18 Super Hornet, estimated at $90 million per unit, is used by many US-allied air forces around the world.

But Brazil has taken note of the US Congress' ability to veto military technology and support, as it did with Venezuela when US relations with the country soured, forcing Caracas to turn to Russia for aircraft and tanks.

Sweden's Gripen NG is the cheapest of the bids, at around $60 million per plane, but it is the least powerful of the three -- and no prototype for it exists yet.
Source: http://www.thelocal.se/21062/20090803/
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ebj1248650
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:16 am

This one will go to either the Rafale or the Super Hornet. And I wouldn't be surprised to see the Rafale get it.
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PPVRA
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:41 am

There's a small scandal going with the purchase of French Scorpenes. The deal cost about 10X as much as Thyssen's HDW sub deal and are apparently more expensive to maintain and some have said less capable, and yet they still won. The Defense Minister justified this for various reasons, including the building of a shipyard to build the subs. Regardless, paying TEN TIMES the second best offer is stretching it. And this on top of the 51 Super Pumas purchase and the Rafale looking like the final choice.

Something smells rotten.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:24 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
They have?. Sorry, care to tell me where, or maybe you are confusing Ecuador with Venezuela?.
And in the end, it doesn't mean anything because Venezuelan troops cross as easily to the colombian side of the border. Thats the nature of it when most of the border is covered with dense jungles.

You dont know much about current conflicts, suggest you read up a little.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 45):
Ok,soon there probably will be a decision....
Brasilia is expected to announce in September which shortlisted company -- Boeing of the United States, Dassault of France, or Saab of Sweden -- will supply 36 combat aircraft to replace Brazil's aging fleet of 12 French-made Mirage-2000 jets.

The procurement is part of a $15 billion plan by Latin America's biggest economy to update and expand its military capabilities to face 21st century threats in the region, and to protect precious resources in its vast territory.

France's Rafale F3 fighter is seen as the favorite of Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, in large part because it is the only bid that includes an offer to share technology with Brazil.

The Latin American country is keen to give its own Embraer aircraft-making group the knowledge needed to make its own high-tech fighters in the future.

But the Rafale is also the most expensive by far of the offers on the table, the Folha de S. Paulo newspaper noted Sunday.

The newspaper said the estimated price-per-plane of the Rafale is around $130 million, not including weapons and support.

Boeing's multi-role F/A-18 Super Hornet, estimated at $90 million per unit, is used by many US-allied air forces around the world.

But Brazil has taken note of the US Congress' ability to veto military technology and support, as it did with Venezuela when US relations with the country soured, forcing Caracas to turn to Russia for aircraft and tanks.

Sweden's Gripen NG is the cheapest of the bids, at around $60 million per plane, but it is the least powerful of the three -- and no prototype for it exists yet.
Source: http://www.thelocal.se/21062/20090803/

This has been going on for how long? By the time Brazil decides on a new fighter, manned fighter jets will be obsolete!
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Issues Official RFI For F-X2 Fighter

Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:02 am



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 45):
France's Rafale F3 fighter is seen as the favorite of Defense Minister Nelson Jobim, in large part because it is the only bid that includes an offer to share technology with Brazil.

It is NOT "the only bid that includes an offer to share technology with Brazil." Sharing technology is a part of the requirements. Both Saab and Boeing will bring ToT to the table.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 45):
Boeing's multi-role F/A-18 Super Hornet, estimated at $90 million per unit, is used by many US-allied air forces around the world.

Well technically, there aren't any US-allies that operates the SH. Australia will however ones they get theirs.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 45):
Sweden's Gripen NG is the cheapest of the bids, at around $60 million per plane, but it is the least powerful of the three -- and no prototype for it exists yet.

Again bogus. The NG Demonstrator is flying.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 45):

Source: http://www.thelocal.se/21062/20090803/

The Local has tabloid status in my eyes. They seldom get more than half the story right.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):
Something smells rotten.

This is arms procurements. It wouldn't be the first time capabilities and price comes in second.

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 46):
And I wouldn't be surprised to see the Rafale get it.

 checkmark  Unless it comes down to money, in which case I think the Gripen will be the front runner. The latest desperate act from the US to give the Brazilians more ToT after the deadline shows me that they know they're dogs in this one.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 48):
This has been going on for how long? By the time Brazil decides on a new fighter, manned fighter jets will be obsolete!

I think the FX-2 only slipped by 6 months which is quite good. Far far better than the MMRCA.


Some info on the SH deal has been released, so I thought I might link it.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2009/Brazil_09-35.pdf

In the $7B deal, the following is includes:

- 28 F/A-18E
- 8 F/A-18F
- 72 F414-GE-400 and 4 spares
- 36 AN/AGP-79 Radar systems
- 36 M61A2 20mm Guns
- 36 36 AN/ALR-67(V) RWR
- 144 LAU-127 Launchers
- 44 JHMCS
- 28 AIM-120C-7
- 28 AIM-9M
- 60 GBU-31/32 JDAM
- 36 AGM-154 JSOW
- 10 AGB-88B HARM
- 36 AN/ASQ-228 (V2) ATFLIR pods
- 36 AN/ALQ-214 Radio Frequency Countermeasures
- 40 AN/ALE-47 Electronic Warfare Countermeasures Systems (How come four more than the number of A/C. Unreliable system, often breaking?)
- 112 AN/ALE-50 Towed Decoys
- Spares, training, mission support system etc...

Always interesting to see whats included, and not, and at what price in these kind of deals. The only thing, off the top of my head, that I'm missing is Drop Tanks and IR countermeasures.

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