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STT757
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Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:58 pm

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Moose135
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:50 pm

Oh My God! What were they thinking, flying a Presidential candidate around in such an unsafe aircraft? Everyone knows they just drop out of the sky without warning!  Smile  Smile  Smile
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:18 pm



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 1):
Oh My God! What were they thinking, flying a Presidential candidate around in such an unsafe aircraft?

Perhaps it is just plan good planning?  duck   duck   duck 
 
gsosbee
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 1):
Oh My God! What were they thinking, flying a Presidential candidate around in such an unsafe aircraft? Everyone knows they just drop out of the sky without warning!

Please provide one ounce of truth in this statement.

I cannot recall any instance where the airplane was cruising along and just fell out of the sky. The two early fatal incidents involved combat assault landings. The airplane now has software that will auto-land the airplane if the pilots lose sight of the ground (overcomes the ring-state issues that caused the accidents).

Check-out the Military Channel show "Flight of the V-22 Osprey" for the debrief on the first deployment and the upgrades to the airplane that have been performed.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 3):
Please provide one ounce of truth in this statement.

I guess you missed the 3 smilies  Smile  Smile  Smile I included in my post. It was a tongue-in-cheek poke at those who kept up the anti-Osprey rhetoric despite all evidence to the contrary.

I guess sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet.  Wink
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
gsosbee
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:33 pm



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 4):
I guess you missed the 3 smilies I included in my post. It was a tongue-in-cheek poke at those who kept up the anti-Osprey rhetoric despite all evidence to the contrary.

Sorry, I did miss it.
 
dragon6172
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:41 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 3):
Check-out the Military Channel show "Flight of the V-22 Osprey" for the debrief on the first deployment and the upgrades to the airplane that have been performed.

What a crappy, BS, one sided dog and pony show that was.
Phrogs Phorever
 
gsosbee
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:36 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 6):
What a crappy, BS, one sided dog and pony show that was.

They filmed what the Marines would let them film. However, the facts are that the deployment was completed without incident and with an availability equal to or greater than the airplane it replaced. Yes they didn't load it with guns and fly it as a gunship 23 hours a day, but that wasn't the deployment profile.

This will be the long range vertrep aircraft for the next two decades so get used to it.
 
DODCFR
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:12 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):

"WHAT" And be stuck with Hillary!!!  Wow!
 
dragon6172
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:47 pm

Was not disputing the facts. Just commenting on the show. I had heard that availability was not that great. Probably due to the fact that the logistics and parts supply were not in place like they are for all the other airframes. And, no one expects them to arm an assualt support aircraft like a gunship. Cobras are gunships; Hueys like to think they are; Phrogs, Shitters, and Ospreys are assualt support, plain and simple. Phrogs and Shitters can somewhat provide defensive fire all around though.

VertRep is the term usually used for underway replenishment of ships via helicopters, typically using slings. The V-22 will most likely not be used in this role very much, as there are plenty of other assets in the Navy and Marine Corps that are more capable. What you probably meant was long range resupply missions. I can see it being used in this role extensively, and it is one of the few things that I like about the aircraft, and that I think it will do effectively.

It does bring some stuff to the table for Marine Aviation. It does not replace the Phrog completely, and those who deny that have blinders on. The problem is what will the Marine Corps use to fill the gap between the Huey and the Osprey once all the Phrogs are gone.
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STT757
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:51 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 9):
long range resupply missions. I can see it being used in this role extensively, and it is one of the few things that I like about the aircraft, and that I think it will do effectively.

This is where I think the Army is really missing out, the V-22 could be very useful especially in light of transformation from Division centric to expeditionary Modular Brigades. The V-22 could be used for long range replenishment, reinforcements or for raids in Afghanistan.

At the least the medium and light Combat aviation brigades should each be equipped with a battalion of V-22s, CAB's such as:

10th Mountain Division Fort Drum
101st AIr Borne Division For Campbell (two CAB's)
25th Infantry Division Wheeler Army Airfield Hawaii
82nd Airborne Division Fort Bragg
12th Combat Aviation Brigade Ansbach Germany
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:33 pm



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 4):
Please provide one ounce of truth in this statement.

I guess you missed the 3 smilies       I included in my post. It was a tongue-in-cheek poke at those who kept up the anti-Osprey rhetoric despite all evidence to the contrary.

Gotta admit that I had quoted selected text to fire at you as well. It pays to read and understand the entire post before replying kids!
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:59 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
At the least the medium and light Combat aviation brigades should each be equipped with a battalion of V-22s, CAB's such as:

10th Mountain Division Fort Drum
101st AIr Borne Division For Campbell (two CAB's)
25th Infantry Division Wheeler Army Airfield Hawaii
82nd Airborne Division Fort Bragg
12th Combat Aviation Brigade Ansbach Germany

This is the THIRD time you have made this ridiculous argument, and amazingly you've added a new gem to your hair-brained proposal: 12th CAB! So, this will be the THIRD time I will challenge you to support your proposal with something more substantial then the minor reasons you've repeatedly put out.

By adding such an aircraft to a LIGHT division completely runs counter to their entire purpose in life!

By adding the V-22, you are wastefully overlapping the roll of the CH-47.

Can the V-22 sling-load a M198? Oh by the way, the M198 is a chief component for both the 101st and 82nd, in helping to achieve their war time objectives. Right now only the CH-47s fulfill those division objectives for rapid weapon deployment.

When you look at Army helicopters, range has never been a major discriminator for airframe selection. The reason being, you are not regularly tasking your aviation units with having to fly far beyond the FLOT. Something like 80% of all missions occur within 200nm of home base.

How do you transport a V-22 to anywhere in the world, within 18hrs? Afterall, that is the 82nd Airborne Division's primary mission, isn't?

How do you justify the Army spending more money on a single V-22, than what it would cost to buy a company worth of UH-60s or a flight of CH-47s? Upwards and beyond $50million per aircraft? And you want each CAB to have a minimum of one entire BATTALION!? ....So in other words, you want the Army to allocate $6BILLION for the V-22?!

(And by the way, I was conservative with those figures! A battalion has 3 flying companies, 1 maintenance company, and 1 support company. Depending on the airframe, the number of aircraft in each company will vary. But on average, most companies have 10-14 aircraft. But I gave you the benefit of the doubt and figured only 8 V-22s per company, for a total of 24 per BTN. So 24 a/c per BTN, times your proposed 6 BTNs, times a very conservative $50million per a/c = billions of dollars needed).

And additionally, where do you even plan of finding those billions of dollars? What branch of the Army must suffer, so that ST7757 can sleep well at night?

Your proposal is nothing more than "oh I think that would be cool!" And has little to no thought beyond that. DOA: Dead On Arrival.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:05 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
Your proposal is nothing more than "oh I think that would be cool!" And has little to no thought beyond that. DOA: Dead On Arrival.

That is an accurate summary of the V-22 Osprey program so far. 10 times more expensive and "just as good" as the predecessor. Wow. So impressive.

That's the way wars are lost, not won.
 
Curt22
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:55 pm

V-22 is now and will remain far too expensive (and maybe too complex) for the Army to operate.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
Can the V-22 sling-load a M198?

Maybe...dual hook rating of the V-22 is 15K, isn't that about what the M-198 weighs?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
How do you transport a V-22 to anywhere in the world, within 18hrs?

Opposed the USMC float concept...CV-22 CONOPS is to "self deploy" the acft.

However, the 18 hour promise made by ANY military unit is a bit bold without knowing WHERE the deployment will be to...airlift availability, weather delays, political constraints etc.

In the end it's all about cost...will the Army ever establish a requirement to fly faster than traditional helo's do today? If so, there's an argument to be made for Tilt-Rotors in the Army, but doesn't look like this is going to happen any time soon.
 
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:36 pm



Quoting Curt22 (Reply 16):
Maybe...dual hook rating of the V-22 is 15K, isn't that about what the M-198 weighs?

The max sling for a V-22 is rated at 10,000.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 16):

However, the 18 hour promise made by ANY military unit is a bit bold without knowing WHERE the deployment will be to...airlift availability, weather delays, political constraints etc.

As much as I hate my double A battery, plane jumping jumping friends in the 82nd... I give credit, where credit is do.

They have had over 50years to perfect the art of rapid deployment.... so when their mission is be anywhere in 18hrs.... unless they're going into a hurricane, they'll be there.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Curt22
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Fri Aug 29, 2008 12:26 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
The max sling for a V-22 is rated at 10,000.

All references I find call out a 15K dual hook capacity for the V-22...including Boeing's site:
www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/v22/index.htm

And this photo shows a gun on the single hook too.

Big version: Width: 740 Height: 590 File size: 49kb


Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 17):
As much as I hate my double A battery, plane jumping jumping friends in the 82nd... I give credit, where credit is do.

They have had over 50years to perfect the art of rapid deployment.... so when their mission is be anywhere in 18hrs.... unless they're going into a hurricane, they'll be there

Jumping into a hurricane, that makes for a funny mental picture!

I don't hate the Airborne, just saying they are not going anywhere in 18 hours without airlift, and airlift is dependant upon many factors.

In fact, the 3 hour tear down / build up requirement for CSAR-X was basically 'backed out' of one 24 hour period...the fastest our airlifters can get half way across the globe is 18 hours which leaves 6 hours to prepare an acft for airlift, or 3 hours on each end of the flight.

I think the Airborne claims of 18 hrs to deploy is based upon this physical limit of the time it takes airlift to get half way across the globe and has less to do with the unit's ability to do anything in the way of preparations.

That said...V-22's cruising at 250 MPH aren't going half way around the world in 18 hours, so not a good platform to move large numbers of troops long distances, but great to have a VTOL machine that can cover some distances and small numbers of troops at twice the speed of conventional helos!
 
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STT757
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:49 pm

Back to my point the CABs are "supposed" to be MFCAB, Multi-functional Combat aviation brigades. I would call the V-22 Multifunctional, and something I would think Brigade commanders would want at their disposal. It might not carry as much as a Chinook, but it can fly farther, higher, faster.

If I had wounded on the battlefield, and my choices for their transport back to medical care were a Chinook, Black hawk or a V-22 I would want the V-22. Their price tags would not be that much of a concern to me, the Buffalo's cost a heck of a lot more than the HMMVS but have been proven life savers despite the fact that the accelerated build and deployment schedules which have Charleston factories running 24/7 have obviously taken funding away from other areas.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:03 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):

Once again.... you have completely sidestepped all of the questions and issues I raised.

Whether or not the Army should buy V-22s in not dependent on "something ST7757 thinks the Army needs." You need to answer those questions I raised, and you need to make an argument based on facts - not your personal opinions.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
heir price tags would not be that much of a concern to me

...Hence my point. Just because YOU are not concerned with the price tag, does not mean the issue of exorbitant costs, simply goes away!

You called for 6 CABs to each have a BTN of V-22s, yet you cannot even explain where that money would come from.

It's all just a very weak argument.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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STT757
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:33 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
yet you cannot even explain where that money would come from.

Well we can start by getting it appropriated in Congress, do we need to go into how a bill becomes law. There are also probably some huge cost savings that can be realized just by tweaking some of the FCS.
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dragon6172
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:20 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
but it can fly farther, higher, faster.

While carrying pax it shares the same altitude limits as everyone else. No oxygen equals 10k limit.
Phrogs Phorever
 
Curt22
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:40 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 20):
While carrying pax it shares the same altitude limits as everyone else. No oxygen equals 10k limit.

The V-22 has an OBOGS (On Board Oxygen Generating System) that can support the crew and there are a number of roll on packages available for Pax...pity they couldn't figure out how to pressurize the cabin...just too many holes to plug in that "Twist-Cap" I guess.
 
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:15 pm



Quoting Curt22 (Reply 16):
And this photo shows a gun on the single hook too.

While this shows a "hanging" HUMVEE.....


http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices...military/rotorcraft/v22/v2212.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
dragon6172
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:27 am



Quoting Curt22 (Reply 21):
are a number of roll on packages available for Pax

Super. Lets cramp the pax even more.
Phrogs Phorever
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:54 am

Anyone here been to Air Assault School?

Remember hooking up the load under a Chinook, and knowing what it's like to stand in the middle of a cat 5 hurricane? lol... I can only imagine what it must feel like under the Osprey.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 16):

All references I find call out a 15K dual hook capacity for the V-22...including Boeing's site:

Interesting. I had read 15K once, but was under the impression that it had been dropped down to 10k for hook longevity? The same goes for the UH-60 and the Ch-47.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 16):
I don't hate the Airborne, just saying they are not going anywhere in 18 hours without airlift, and airlift is dependant upon many factors.

lol... no but I do! Having been born and raised with the mighty 101, I have a natural disdain for the 82nd! Although, when I graduated basic, before going to AIT, I went to airborne school. It wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

Personally I think the entire concept of airborne operations is outdated and nothing more than a legacy division. When is the last time they did an actual combat jump? (And I am not talking about jumping onto a bunch of sheep in northern Iraq!) All of those with a mustard stain are aging old men!

But yeah... even though I don't particularly care for the 82nd, their constant readiness posture, and their constant practice at rapid deployment, begrudgingly earns my respect. They may not be able to go on the offensive within 18hrs, but they definitely can act as a firewall until the larger units move in.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:16 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
That is an accurate summary of the V-22 Osprey program so far. 10 times more expensive and "just as good" as the predecessor. Wow. So impressive.

That's the way wars are lost, not won.

Well I would have to disagree with that.

My argument was against the Army buying it. Perhaps we in the 160th can use it.... but not the regular Army.

But to say that the V-22 has no place? Absolutely not. It has the strong potential to make an excellent CSAR aircraft, SOF aircraft. Now I am no expert in USMC operations, but I understand where they are coming from. There is a need for such an aircraft... perhaps not so many as planned... but a need, nonetheless.

Contrary to the baseless claims made in the past, the mainline US Army Aviation Corps does NOT need it, let alone 1 BTNs in the suggested 6 CABs!

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Curt22
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:10 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 25):
It has the strong potential to make an excellent CSAR aircraft, SOF aircraft.

Agreed...if the V-22 proves itself to be a capable acft (and looks like the recent USMC and soon to be AFSOC deployment is making this case)...I think the SOF/CSAR role will have much to gain with the addition of this new VTOL machine.

When people asked me why do we need the V-22 I used to answer: "Say you need an ambulance to take you a hospital...do you want one that can drive at 35 MHP or one that can cruise at 70 MPH?

V-22 is not going to replace any traditional VTOL acft, but it will fill the niche mission of greater speed in a VTOL package.
 
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STT757
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:49 pm



Quote:
Army Changes Direction With MV-22 Osprey

CAMP MACKALL, N.C. – On a cloudless summer day at Camp Mackall Airfield, the U.S. Army reached a new milestone in its airborne operations capabilities with the MV-22 Osprey aircraft.

The July 22, 2008 operation marked the first official use of the Osprey by the Army for training purposes, said Marine Lt. Col. Baron A. Harrison, Marine liaison at the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School at Fort Bragg.



Quote:
the Army had not shown a great deal of interest. However, said Maj. Steven B. Weliver, the airborne commander for Tuesday’s operation, this appears to be changing.

It was only recently that the evolution of the Osprey has earned the kind of credibility that catches the Army’s interest, added Weliver.

“The Osprey program has matured to a point where now we can start seeing what its capabilities are and how it will lend itself to the special operations community.”



Quote:
In addition to its ability to take off like a helicopter, the Osprey’s top speed nearly doubles that of traditional rotary wing aircraft, such as the CH-47 Chinook.

“It can get us farther faster, so basically less exposure to any threats,” Weliver added.

The clear benefit is in extracting troops from a limited and confined space, said Staff Sgt. Eduardo F. Collado, secretary of the general staff at USASOC.

Looks like the Army feels there's a place for the Osprey within their branch, at least within the ranks of the Special Ops and Airborne units.
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STT757
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:52 pm

Seems the Army originally wanted about 231 Ospreys, but the costs drove them out of the program.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/archives/1988/8801040144.asp

Quote:
ARMY CUTS V-22 OSPREY PROJECT BUT BOEING DOWNPLAYS DECISION

By Les Gapay P-I Reporter

FRIDAY, January 29, 1988
Section: Business, Page: B13

In budget-cutting moves, the Army has dropped out of Boeing's V-22 Osprey project, a combination helicopter-airplane, and has cut in half its plans for the LHX helicopter that Boeing wants to build.

Boeing Helicopter Co. in Philadelphia, working on both programs, said they are so huge they still could be worth many billions to Boeing.

"We're out of it," said Maj. Phil Soucy, spokesman for Army headquarters at the Pentagon, of the V-22, an aircraft whose rotors will tilt so it can take off and land like a helicopter and fly like an airplane. The Army had said previously it wanted to buy 231 Ospreys out of 913 that were to be built for the four armed services.

"It's an affordability issue," Soucy said yesterday. "The dollars aren't there."

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CTR
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:53 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 28):
but the costs drove them out of the program.

Not costs but DOD budget cuts. The Army had to make a choice between the V-22 Osprey or the LHX which became the Comanche. If the Army funding had stayed in the V-22 program it's development would not have been as troubled. However based on the Comanche's program management history leading up to it's cancellation, maybe the Osprey development was better off with just NAVAIR and the USAF.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Obama Flies Usmc Osprey From Iraq To Jordan

Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:49 am

That was quick he isnt even President yet and he is already wasting taxpayers money.

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