redflyer
Posts: 3882
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Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:43 am

How much further will this branch's reputation suffer? Now we have a BGen who committed suicide. His prior assignment was as XO to Gen. Moseley, recently ousted COS. I hope Secretary Gates can quickly right this floundering ship. It's not good for morale when a senior officer exits in this manner. Who knows what skeletons he had in his closet that led him to take an expedient, but very selfish, exit.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/air_force...;_ylt=At9JrXGqRFG9LJdp3luxavys0NUE
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L-188
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:58 am

They are just calling it a "Self-Inflicted" wound at this point, so an accidental discharge can't be ruled out. But the reports up here are that no note was left.

http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/story/477369.html
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
redflyer
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:08 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
They are just calling it a "Self-Inflicted" wound at this point, so an accidental discharge can't be ruled out. But the reports up here are that no note was left.

I always assumed "self-inflicted" referred to a deliberately inflicted wound whereas an accidentally inflicted wound was always referred to as an "accidental discharge". I guess time will tell which of these events befell BGen Tinsley. And, of course, suicides don't always leave a note behind. The most famous and high ranking suicide in U.S. military history was CNO Adm. Boorda who died of a "self-inflicted" gunshot wound to the chest (just like BGen Tinsley); although, he did leave behind a suicide note.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:30 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
The most famous and high ranking suicide in U.S. military history was CNO Adm. Boorda who died of a "self-inflicted" gunshot wound to the chest (just like BGen Tinsley); although, he did leave behind a suicide note.

And the shame about that was he started as an enlisted guy, and made it all the way to CNO. I beleive one of the reasons he did it was he was caught wearing a medal that he didn't earn and the press hounded him bad about it.

Dan in Jupiter
 
TropicBird
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:47 am

There is more going on here. Kenneth Miller is also leaving and he is currently under investigation for speaking out (to the public) on the C-17 and KC-X program's. What he told some people was non-public information.


Kenneth E. Miller, who served as special assistant for Air Force acquisition under former Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne, has stepped down, according to service spokesman Lt. Col. Mike Paoli. Miller was expected to resign shortly after Wynne's departure last month, Paoli said.

But two congressional aides familiar with the matter said Miller was being investigated by the service for allegedly leaking information to the public before the government disclosed it. The aides requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the probe.

Paoli declined to comment on any internal Air Force investigation of Miller.




Link to article:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080728/air_force_second_resignation.html?.v=2
 
redflyer
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:48 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 3):
I beleive one of the reasons he did it was he was caught wearing a medal that he didn't earn and the press hounded him bad about it.

That was the official reason given for his suicide (not that I doubt it, it's just that with suicides there are always a multitude of reasons for offing oneself, but it takes just one event to push the person over the edge). But wasn't his wearing of the ribbon/medal deemed appropriate post-mortem? I think former CNO Adm. Zumwalt went on the record as stating that Adm. Boorda was authorized to wear it.

[Edited 2008-07-28 20:52:16]
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jgarrido
Posts: 258
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:58 am

The yahoo article states the wound was to the chest? Seems like if you really wanted to kill yourself the temple would be the guaranteed place to get the job done.
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:43 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):
But wasn't his wearing of the ribbon/medal deemed appropriate post-mortem? I think former CNO Adm. Zumwalt went on the record as stating that Adm. Boorda was authorized to wear it.

IIRC some board decided that the "V" on the ribbon wasn't authorized. Wiki states he was hounded also by "ring knockers" of Canoe U by the way he handled the "Tailhook" thing(didn't cover it up as they wanted).
My nephew was stationed at marine barracks 8th and I when it happened, he said that they went to a high alert status, sent to the CNO residence fully "locked and loaded", due to they didn't know what had happened, and if was it an attack or not.

Sad to see some of the top brass thinking that suicide is the only way out.  Sad

Dan in Jupiter
 
redflyer
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:25 pm



Quoting Jgarrido (Reply 6):
The yahoo article states the wound was to the chest? Seems like if you really wanted to kill yourself the temple would be the guaranteed place to get the job done.

Lots of suicides by gun are to the chest, including Adm. Boorda's. Many suicides will do it so that their loved ones won't be traumatized more than they already are when they have to look at the face either at the morgue or at the wake/funeral.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
checksixx
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:18 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
How much further will this branch's reputation suffer?

Unless there is some connection with his death and something he did wrong, there is no negative mark on our branch because of this. Suicides happen MUCH more often that what you hear of...this being news worthy only because of his rank. I worked for him, he was a good, honest guy back then.

Quoting RedFlyer (Thread starter):
I hope Secretary Gates can quickly right this floundering ship

Gates hates the Air Force. Why would he want anything fixed? He's probably having a great time with it.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
I always assumed "self-inflicted" referred to a deliberately inflicted wound whereas an accidentally inflicted wound was always referred to as an "accidental discharge".

Self inflicted is used regardless if it was deliberate or not.
 
Ken777
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:45 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 9):
Gates hates the Air Force.

I don't think Gates rally hates the AF - but he sure gets angry when he gives orders and AF Generals don't bother to follow them. I imagine that he's also rather angry over the KC-X FUBAR, and he has a right to be.

From a distance it appears that the AF has lost its way in a lot of areas. The embarrassment of the religious nuts at the AF Academe to the impropriety with the tanker procurement process.

One hopes that whoever follows Gates next year will continue to stay on top of the AF in their mess.
 
redflyer
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:21 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 9):
Unless there is some connection with his death and something he did wrong, there is no negative mark on our branch because of this.

Respectfully, I disagree. While I'm not saying his death is connected in anyway with something he might have done wrong, the manner of his death is highly irregular for a general grade officer and regardless of the reasons he did it, it will have an impact on morale. His stature as a leader has crumbled because of what he did. But that's just my opinion.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 9):
Suicides happen MUCH more often that what you hear of...this being news worthy only because of his rank.

I know suicides happen more frequently than what's reported. However, suicide rates in the military are slightly higher than in the general civilian population. But, as you point out, this news is somewhat shocking, and newsworthy, because of his rank.
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Blackbird
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:55 pm

The most f*cked up thing about Boorda's suicide was he actually was entitled to wear the medal they claimed he didn't have the right to wear. He essentially killed himself for nothing.

Andrea Kent
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:35 pm



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 12):
The most f*cked up thing about Boorda's suicide was he actually was entitled to wear the medal they claimed he didn't have the right to wear. He essentially killed himself for nothing.

I thik there was some contention later on about it in the years after his death, saying he was, then he wasnt....it wasn't about an actual medal IIRC but the Valor "V" device he was wearing on two medals.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
L-188
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:33 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
One hopes that whoever follows Gates next year will continue to stay on top of the AF in their mess

Honestly, Gates is the 1 guy I think has a shot at getting held over by the Obama administration. There is a bit of a tradition of doing that.

Unfortunately GW got himself stick with Tenet 8 years ago, so it doesn't always work out.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 8):
Many suicides will do it so that their loved ones won't be traumatized more than they already are when they have to look at the face either at the morgue or at the wake/funeral.

Awfully nice of them. But you are correct. I think most of these guys know what a bullet does.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
checksixx
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:35 pm



Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 13):
I thik there was some contention later on about it in the years after his death, saying he was, then he wasnt....it wasn't about an actual medal IIRC but the Valor "V" device he was wearing on two medals.

DeltaGuy

Anyone with a Medal knows whether or not they've been awarded it with Valor. It should have been easy to figure out as its also attached to that paperwork. I've got several with Valor and several without and its all available to be researched.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:26 pm

Was Boorda awarded those medals with Valor?

Blackbird
 
mortkork
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Sat Aug 30, 2008 8:15 pm

Oh, that's who it was! I saw the blrurp on the front of the AF Times in the BX. It hasn't even even firebottle talk (watercooler for noners). I was never in his command, it hasn't affected my morale one bit!

MSgt USAF
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:10 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 14):
Honestly, Gates is the 1 guy I think has a shot at getting held over by the Obama administration. There is a bit of a tradition of doing that.

Good thing the McCain administration will be the ones making that decision Big grin

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
redflyer
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:00 pm

Well, it turns out his cause of death was officially ruled a suicide...

Quote:
A three-month Air Force Office of Special Investigations inquiry, which concluded in early November, determined that Tinsley intentionally shot himself once in the chest with a large-caliber handgun, but investigators were unable to turn up a motive.

But, maybe he was just playing Russian Roulette?

Quote:
An autopsy and toxicology report found alcohol in Tinsley’s blood...
...The five-chamber weapon, found with Tinsley’s body, contained one spent shell casing and four empty chambers.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...1/airforce_tinsley_suicide_110608/
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AirRyan
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:15 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10):
I don't think Gates rally hates the AF - but he sure gets angry when he gives orders and AF Generals don't bother to follow them. I imagine that he's also rather angry over the KC-X FUBAR, and he has a right to be.

I've heard a handful of current and past USAF officers opine that today's AF leadership is just not as good as it was even 10-20 years ago in terms of integrity and even aptitude. Too PC, too much ass-kissing, and not enough accountability - but then again that could describe our society as a whole as well.
 
bennett123
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:41 pm

Personally, it sounds like suicide. I see no other reason to point the gun at your own chest.

Is there any known or suspected reason, (apart from the obvious pressure of the job).
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3568
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:52 pm



Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 18):
Good thing the McCain administration will be the ones making that decision

 Silly

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 21):
Personally, it sounds like suicide. I see no other reason to point the gun at your own chest.

Especially since he was in the military. I'm sure he was familiar with guns.
Ain't I a stinker?
 
AGC525
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:50 am

RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:39 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 19):
But, maybe he was just playing Russian Roulette?

Speculation, more than likely he knows gun safety and only having one round in, and the rest of the chambers empty means when family and officials show up, there's no chance of someone mishandling the weapon and it going off. Most suicides with semi auto's will only have one round, leaving the slide open and more often than not, conceled under the body or under seat cushions, etc. And the shot to the chest serves two puposes, one is an open casket for friends and family (especially with that .50cal would have made the scene very disturbing and literally nothing left from the neck up), and the other is you run the risk of missing your brain or critical area, leaving you maimed. Sorry to be somewhat graphic, but as an EMT I've seen far too many suicides.

Very sad, nonetheless and I'm thankful of his service.
American Aviation: From Kitty Hawk to the Moon in 66 years!
 
Ken777
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:21 am



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 4):
But two congressional aides familiar with the matter said Miller was being investigated by the service for allegedly leaking information to the public before the government disclosed it. The aides requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the probe.

Just re-read that one. Are the two congressional aides going to be investigated for leaking information to the public before the government disclosed it about the guy who leaked information to the public before the government disclosed it? It's going to be interesting to see if there is anyone who is willing to leak information to the public about any possible investigation of the congressional aides who leaked information before the government disclosed it about the guy who leaked information to the public before the government disclosed it.  wideeyed 
 
Oroka
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Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:18 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
Just re-read that one. Are the two congressional aides going to be investigated for leaking information to the public before the government disclosed it about the guy who leaked information to the public before the government disclosed it? It's going to be interesting to see if there is anyone who is willing to leak information to the public about any possible investigation of the congressional aides who leaked information before the government disclosed it about the guy who leaked information to the public before the government disclosed it.

Yeah, I found that one ironic too.
 
Max Q
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RE: Usaf Bgen Suicide

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:57 am

Poor guy,

My greatest sympathies for him and his family. People call suicide a selfish act but I disagree.


He must have been in a terrible place to do this to himself. It's a great shame he could not be rescued from this tragic end.


Many people see no way out and do this, sometimes all they needed to do was wait awhile for things to improve.


Very sad.
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