PPVRA
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FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:33 pm

Quote:
Boeing Delivers Super Hornet Proposal to Brazil For F-X2 Competition

ST. LOUIS, Aug. 15, 2008 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] delivered a detailed proposal July 30 offering its advanced F/A-18E/F Super Hornet to the Brazilian Air Force as part of Brazil's F-X2 fighter competition.

"International interest in the combat-proven Super Hornet continues to increase, and Boeing is honored Brazil is considering the Super Hornet to meet its near-term defense requirements," said Bob Gower, F/A-18 and EA-18 Programs vice president, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems.

Boeing received a Request for Information from the government of Brazil on June 12. The stated initial requirement is for 36 aircraft, with the potential for up to 120 aircraft.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/fx2/f-18_e.htm



Interesting development. Note that Lockheed's F-16 was dropped from the F-X2 competition, replaced by its F-35.

Quote:
EMBRAER WILL SUPPLY THE SUPER TUCANO TO THE CHILEAN AIR FORCE Aircraft will be used on tactical training missions


São José dos Campos, August 15, 2008 – Embraer and the Fuerza Aérea de Chile,(FACh) signed a contract, today, for the sale of 12 Super Tucano aircraft. This is the end result of a public bid held by the FACh, which chose the airplane manufactured by Embraer as the best solution for the tactical training of its pilots. The first Super Tucano should be delivered in the second half of 2009.

The Super Tucano is currently operated by the Brazilian and Colombian Air Forces, for successfully training pilots and high-precision light attack procedures on internal security missions. The Embraer proposal chosen by the FACh includes a broad Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) package and an advanced Training and Operation Support System (TOSS), covering not only the aircraft but, also, ground support stations.

Seems like the Super Tucanos are taking off in export orders. Colombia's successful and widely reported attack on FARC rebels inside Ecuador territory might have turned heads.

[Edited 2008-08-15 16:49:14]
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Devilfish
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
Interesting development. Note that Lockheed's F-16 was dropped from the F-X2 competition, replaced by its F-35.

If LockMart could control the JSF's spiraling cost and meet the FAB's technology transfer and required in-service date, then it would be in for a good fight. Otherwise, it would be a free-for-all with the Super Bug, Rafale, Typhoon and the Su-30.....

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At the lower end, the Gripen has no competition.....

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Quoting PPVRA (Thread starter):
Seems like the Super Tucanos are taking off in export orders. Colombia's successful and widely reported attack on FARC rebels inside Ecuador territory might have turned heads.


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It does seem the Super Tucano has the inside track on COIN aircraft competitions.
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:33 am

I think you could write off the F-35 the US would never transfer the technology, they may but I would be very suprised if they did. I think it will come down between the Superhornet and the Gripen, the Superhornet being the more capable of the two but also more expensive unless they sign of a deal like Australia did. The SU-30 may be in the mix but it just depends on how Brazil reacts to the Recent Russian agressions I am not sure Brazil wants to be on the US naughty list since it pretty much inevitable now that Russian and US relations are pretty much down the toilet and will be for a while. I dont know their point of view on it so it would be hard for me to judge.
 
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:17 am



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 2):
I think it will come down between the Superhornet and the Gripen, the Superhornet being the more capable of the two but also more expensive unless they sign of a deal like Australia did.

Why wouldn't the Rafale be in the running? Brazil doesn't strike me as a country that has to lean towards the least expensive airplane and apparently they don't need to. The fact they're considering the F-35 suggests very strongly money isn't a big issue. So, the Rafale is a potential competitor as is the Typhoon, in its multi-mission configuration.
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:44 am



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 3):
Why wouldn't the Rafale be in the running? Brazil doesn't strike me as a country that has to lean towards the least expensive airplane and apparently they don't need to. The fact they're considering the F-35 suggests very strongly money isn't a big issue. So, the Rafale is a potential competitor as is the Typhoon, in its multi-mission configuration.

The Rafale couldnt even win the contract in their won backyard in africa they wont win it here either. I have nothing against the Rafale, they havent been sucessfull in exporting it to anyone. The typhoon is about as close as you can get to an F-22 unfortunatly they are getting to the point where is about as expensive. Sorry I doubt either plane stands a chance. They were considering the F-35 the last time on the original FX program and it was scrapped because of lack of funds..dont let it fool you Money is very much an object in this bid.
 
baron95
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:08 am

Given that the F-18EF is the only fighter, other than the F22, with a Full AESA radar that operates in A2A, A2G and jamming modes and has a full complement of A2A and A2G weapons already integrated, it is the by far the best multi-role fighter in the world and probably even the best A2A short of the un-exportable F22.

I think Brazil should give serious consideration to the F18-EF, add afew F18Gs to the mix and orther the buddy fueling system as well. 36 of those, set up as 3 squadrons would finally but the FAB on the map in South America.

I'd even go as far as saying that they should order the full carrier set up for the planes. Who knows, in the future Brazil may field something like the British CVF (sans STOVL ramps but with proper catapult/traps).

I would not order more than 36 though. The next 36 should be F35Bs.
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PPVRA
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting Baron95 (Reply 5):
Given that the F-18EF is the only fighter, other than the F22, with a Full AESA radar that operates in A2A, A2G and jamming modes and has a full complement of A2A and A2G weapons already integrated, it is the by far the best multi-role fighter in the world and probably even the best A2A short of the un-exportable F22.

Yup. The only problem I can see would be the technology transfer. They may be able o work around that.

The Rafale apparently has radar technology that has been described as "a technological dead-end". That's a very big negative, though I still think the type has good chances.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 2):
I think you could write off the F-35 the US would never transfer the technology



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
Money is very much an object in this bid.

Technology transfer and money are the two reasons why I would rule out the F-35. I'm not sure why the F-35 was even put into the list. We'll see.
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art
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:35 pm



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
The Rafale couldnt even win the contract in their won backyard in africa they wont win it here either.

I believe Rafale was selected by Morocco but an astonishing faux pas on the price blew the deal.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 6):
The Rafale apparently has radar technology that has been described as "a technological dead-end". That's a very big negative, though I still think the type has good chances.

EASA is coming to Rafale, reportedly scheduled for 2011 in a 2007 Flight aticle by Jon Lake.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...irst-with-thales-active-radar.html
 
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:32 pm



Quoting Art (Reply 7):
I believe Rafale was selected by Morocco but an astonishing faux pas on the price blew the deal.

So again it didn't win the contract.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 5):
Given that the F-18EF is the only fighter, other than the F22, with a Full AESA radar that operates in A2A, A2G and jamming modes and has a full complement of A2A and A2G weapons already integrated, it is the by far the best multi-role fighter in the world and probably even the best A2A short of the un-exportable F22.

I think Brazil should give serious consideration to the F18-EF, add afew F18Gs to the mix and orther the buddy fueling system as well. 36 of those, set up as 3 squadrons would finally but the FAB on the map in South America.

I agree I think the F-18 E/F would be the best selection for them.
 
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:15 am



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 2):
The SU-30 may be in the mix but it just depends on how Brazil reacts to the Recent Russian agressions I am not sure Brazil wants to be on the US naughty list since it pretty much inevitable now that Russian and US relations are pretty much down the toilet and will be for a while. I dont know their point of view on it so it would be hard for me to judge.

Yes, it would be a tough call, especially since Brazil's neighbor to the North acquired some and is rumored to be after more, including tanker, transport and ISR assets.....

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Anyway, the Su-35 version was reportedly the one to be proposed.....

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Whichever, it would cost serious money - short of the Russians underpricing to clinch the deal.
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baron95
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:37 am



Quoting Art (Reply 7):
EASA is coming to Rafale, reportedly scheduled for 2011

I'm sorry but the Rafale's planned AESA radar is a kludge. What they are proporting to do can't work well. They are proposing to keep the same decade+ olde radar backend and only change the antenna front end. They are proposing to maintain the small nose diameter, which will limite the number of array elements and their power deu to heat. They are not proposing ANY upgrade in the ship's power to drive the AESA array.

I'm sorry, but this is a joke. Unless Rafale upgrades power, puts up a bigger nose and licenses something like a Raytheon AESA, it will never be competitive with the FA18-E/F, the F15C/E/K-AESA, let alone the F22/F35.

AESA and LPI communications, by themselves or together with LO technology are the key technologies that will make a fighter viable in the next 40 years. That is the FAB horizon.

Why does the FAB has this BS on technology transfer. The only think they should care about is ability to integrate new weapons by themselves. They just need access to the weapons integration SW/HW interfaces.

All else is BS. Best to have the best fighter than the technology transfer for junk fighters.
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:12 am

Any chance of a follow-on order to replace the various vintages of A-4's they are flying off that carrier of theirs?....the ex-Foch.
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PPVRA
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tuc

Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:46 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
Any chance of a follow-on order to replace the various vintages of A-4's they are flying off that carrier of theirs?....the ex-Foch.

I don't see it as a priority for them. They need to focus on renovating the fleet, and my bet is they'll go for second hand aircraft when they do replace the A4s. But who knows, a follow on order could happen.

[Edited 2008-08-18 19:47:33]
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:37 am



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 4):
The Rafale couldnt even win the contract in their won backyard in africa they wont win it here either. I

The Rafale has to be the top contender in this race. Not only is the Brazilian Air Force already a significant Dassault customer but a) Brazil will not want to go with a U.S. weapons system if they can avoid it due to the history of US-Brazilian relations, in particular military cooperation and b) it is perhaps the best multirole fighter out there on a $-per-capability basis. Since the Su-30, despite being a very capable platform (although a sub-par weapons system) seems to be reserved for pariah states and the Gripen is too small I would say the Rafale has a very good chance of getting the contract.

Oh, and before you talk about "backyard" and stuff like that please do remember that the only reason the F-15 beat the Rafale in Korea was political influence.
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baron95
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:07 pm

I agree the Rafale has the inside track to win this contract, but I disagree that it is the best fighter for the FAB. Brazil is a very large country. They don't have a lot of AWACS. Their CINDACTA ground radar systems leaves much to be desired. They need to be able to send fighters up with powerful AESA radars that can operate autonomously.

No one, other than the US fighters have fielded full AESA radars, nor is there a clear path for it.

Brazil needs F-18E/Fs now (36-40) and F35Bs later (36-40) with the AESA radars, Slammer Ds, AIM9X, SDBs and a few LGBs. That is what they need. Fits them to the T.

That is also what Australia needs (similar country side), and apparently what they will get.
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wvsuperhornet
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:25 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
Oh, and before you talk about "backyard" and stuff like that please do remember that the only reason the F-15 beat the Rafale in Korea was political influence.

That and the fact the F-15 has a more powerfull radar, can carry more ordinance and has a longer range.
 
baron95
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:10 pm

Whatever they do, they beter do it fast. The FAB is seriously outclassed when it comes to front line fighters (even by some much smaller/poorer neighbors).
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tuc

Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:47 pm

Brazil could even achieve quick parity if the UK would be desperate enough to unload their ordered Eurofighters at a deeply discounted price.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...AT&cat=3&prod=97259&modele=release

Typhoon Offload and Claims of MOD Budget Crisis
(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued Aug. 20, 2008)

Quote:
"The Financial Times has reported that the MOD has been in talks with other countries to 'offload' Eurofighter Typhoons that it has ordered but can no longer afford. The FT says that this underlines 'the scale of the cash crisis facing the MOD as it grapples with an estimated budget deficit of £2 billion'."

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Of course, the FAB has to beat other interested parties like India and Japan to the draw, just in case.

[Edited 2008-08-23 13:49:21]
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PPVRA
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tuc

Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:06 pm

Btw, I have just read an article (magazine, non-official source) that says the F-X2 budget is around BRL 3.5 billion, or roughly USD 2.1 billion. That makes it just right for 36X F-18s E/F at USD 55.2 million per unit (price quoted from wikipedia, which linked it to the USN Fiscal 2008/2009 Budget Estimates). The Rafale is slightly above the F-18, though the number quoted (USD 62.1 million) is from a non-official estimate from back in 2006.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 17):

Any idea how many they are offloading?

[Edited 2008-08-24 10:11:15]
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:39 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
Btw, I have just read an article (magazine, non-official source) that says the F-X2 budget is around BRL 3.5 billion, or roughly USD 2.1 billion. That makes it just right for 36X F-18s E/F at USD 55.2 million per unit

Drawing from those figures, it may be a bit optimistic for the Typhoon to come in at roughly the same cost per frame, MoD's financial straits notwithstanding.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
Any idea how many they are offloading?

The press release header said the UK MoD wouldn't comment on the Typhoon resale, so we have no way of confirming the numbers, or if indeed that was the case. From the link above.....

Quote:
"The MOD remains in discussions with the Eurofighter Partners on Tranche 3. No final decisions have been made by the MOD on Tranche 3.

We will not comment on Government-to-Government discussions, even to confirm that discussions are taking place."


Who knows? There might be enough available to supply the ongoing tenders where it's shortlisted (provided they agree on a price), or there might be just a few or none at all.  confused 
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Wed Aug 27, 2008 1:08 am

Update:

Now, the report is definitely contradictory.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-cut-for-f-x2-fighter-bidders.html

Quote:
"The current field is understood to cover the Boeing F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16BR, Saab Gripen NG and Sukhoi Su-30.

Lockheed confirms that the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will not be offered for the Brazilian order, which requires the selected manufacturer to transfer all technology required to maintain the aircraft.

'The F-16BR has been developed to satisfy the originating requirements, inventory and delivery dates, offset and industrial co-operation - all while providing the Brazilian air force with the most advanced and capable F-16 available,' Lockheed says. However, the company referred questions about further details of its bid to the US government.


I think by "most advanced", LockMart will be proposing the F-16BR with either Raytheon's new RACR or Northrop's SABR AESA radar.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...nt-line-fighter-radar-upgrade.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...veals-new-aesa-radar-for-f-16.html

So, aside from the bigger SU-30 (again!) SAAB's Gripen NG may have a bonafide competitor at the lower pricepoint for this deal after all?.....

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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:23 am


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PPVRA
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tuc

Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:13 am

My source (same as used before) also confirms the F-35 is out and the F-16BR is back in. F-18E (note: F version not specified) and Gripen still in the game, as well as the Su-35, not the -30.

We'll see what becomes of this. Btw, the technology transfer requirement mentioned in the article is "all necessary technology to maintain the aircraft in operation". This is the quoted reason for the disqualification of the F-35.

[Edited 2008-08-26 21:14:32]
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:54 pm

Pre-selected short-list:

1 - BOEING (F-18 E/F SUPER HORNET),
2 - DASSAULT (RAFALE) and
3 - SAAB (GRIPEN NG).

36 aircraft, delivery beginning 2014.
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:36 pm

Wow, congrats to Boeing, Dassault and Saab! Personally, I thought the Su-30 would have great chances to come out on top in the end.

Boeing was no surprise, great A/C.

Great news for Rafale and perhaps their bad streak of missed export opportunities can come to an end. No surprise though.

Great new for the Gripen NG as well. Outlasting the F-16 and EF is hopefully a good sign, having the Swiss, Croatian and Romanian competitions in mind. EIS 2014 sounds a bit early though for the NG. Thought I saw 2015 as a possible EIS for the SwAF (if there's any money in the defense budget...). Possible deal breaker?

Correct me if I'm wrong but this decision was made from the RFI proposals? When can one expect a final decision? Guessing that gathering and evaluating RFP's may take a while.... 2010?
 
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:12 pm

I wasn't too surprised Sukhoi didn't make it. The previous administration, who had pre-selected the Gripen but left the ultimate decision to our current administration, had dismissed the Sukhoi on the basis of "aggregate risk". Whatever they meant by that, I am not sure, but doesn't sound like a wise choice if this partnership is to last 30 years.

[Edited 2008-10-02 05:15:51]
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:53 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 24):
When can one expect a final decision?

These press releases say around the latter part of 2009.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...AK&cat=3&prod=98406&modele=release

Air Force Command Pre-Selects Candidates for F-X2 Project
(Source: Brazilian Ministry of Defence; issued Oct. 1, 2008)

Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet a Finalist in Brazil Fighter Aircraft Competition
(Source: Boeing Co.; issued Oct. 01, 2008)

Saab’s Gripen One Alternative As Future Fighter for Brazil
(Source: Saab AB; issued Oct. 2, 2008)
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:32 am

I think that the degree of sharing tecnology will have a big say in how this will end,personaly i belive that the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet will outcome as last of the 3 choises.
RAFALE feels strong here,even if there have been some isues with theres M2000,they also have some partnership with the French in submarines.....?

I'l say its close between the RAFAEL and GRIPEN NG.

(spellcheck out of order?)
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:09 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 27):
I think that the degree of sharing tecnology will have a big say in how this will end

These blog and comments provide a succinct background for the competing types.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...razil-fighter-buyers-reject-s.html
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RE: FAB F-18 Proposal; Fach Signs Up For Super Tucanos

Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:17 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 28):
These blog and comments provide a succinct background for the competing types.....

Interesting read...Thank's!  thumbsup 
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