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WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:54 pm

 
sv7887
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:45 pm

Seems like a decent plan on the Iraqis part..Good fighter for them and with the F-35 coming up soon (hopefully) I wouldn't worry too much about the technology transfer issues

I wonder though, what is the state of their Air Force pilots? If I recall they flew Mirages, Sukois, and Migs...How difficult is it to pick up the F-16?

Would they need trainers and simulators? I can't imagine an advanced fighter like the F-16 being easy to pick up, especially if Iraqi pilots haven't been flying for the past few years.

Still I am proud of Iraq making steps to be their own country.
 
gsosbee
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:55 pm

This was only a matter of time coming. I would suspect there is very little secret about the basic F-16 now.
 
AirRyan
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:06 am

Iraq needs to start exporting oil to the US to help pay for their half-trillion dollar price of freedom. US made F-16's is only logical but I'd prefer to see France sell them some Rafale and Leclerc battle tanks so I don't have to watch good F-16's and Abrams MBT someday in the future get stolen or destroyed because they don't know how to use them.
 
Devilfish
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:09 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):

I wonder though, what is the state of their Air Force pilots? If I recall they flew Mirages, Sukois, and Migs...How difficult is it to pick up the F-16?

The Falcon is known for its comparatively easy handling, although it is said to also be a bit tricky during crosswind landings due to the narrow landing gear.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10338.jpg
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10338.jpg

A new crop of pilots are receiving basic flight training, so it might be a while before they graduate to more advanced systems. The main concern seems to be where their allegiance would be after being left on their own.

In any case, LockMart looks to have a few piecemeal prospects in case the wholesale Indian MRCA deal eludes them.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:02 pm

Shoot, there's how many good F-16's in the boneyard right now, that Clinton parked during his military killing spree? Get yourself a decent block 40 out of there and you're set.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
Spacepope
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm



Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 5):
Shoot, there's how many good F-16's in the boneyard right now, that Clinton parked during his military killing spree?

Heck, there's all the A/B models that Bush 1 parked during his "Peace Dividend" sitting there that have fewer hours on their (lighter) airframes.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Devilfish
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:05 pm



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 6):
Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 5):
Shoot, there's how many good F-16's in the boneyard right now, that Clinton parked during his military killing spree?

Heck, there's all the A/B models that Bush 1 parked during his "Peace Dividend" sitting there that have fewer hours on their (lighter) airframes.

Here are two "C" models that may be available. Perhaps there're some more where they came from?

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Terry Shepherd
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Dan Brownlee


The $4.5B offer to Romania mentioned in the WSJ article at the thread's start was reportedly for new and used frames.
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ebj1248650
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:47 am

Is there an implied message in the article that these will be new airplanes? Would upgraded F-16A and B models work as well? Is there the possibility they'll get the advanced Block 60 airplanes?
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trex8
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:12 pm



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 8):
Is there an implied message in the article that these will be new airplanes? Would upgraded F-16A and B models work as well? Is there the possibility they'll get the advanced Block 60 airplanes?

a bunch of A/Bs with MLU is all they need.

they should be buying a bunch of choppers and transports before trying to take on the Iranian AF or more likely its the Turkish one they are actually worried about! The Iranians only have to cash in their IOUs with every Shiite politician to take over the country, the Turks may want to bomb the Kurds into the ground.

who's actually paying for all this????
 
columba
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:43 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 3):
I'd prefer to see France sell them some Rafale and Leclerc battle tanks so I don't have to watch good F-16's and Abrams MBT someday in the future get stolen or destroyed because they don't know how to use them.

So you rather see some stolen Rafales or Leclerc tanks being stolen rather than F-16s or Abrahams. If you worry about military equipment getting stolen in Iraq I would not sell them anything not even a Mig 19 or WW II tank.
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baroque
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:49 pm



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
they should be buying a bunch of choppers and transports before trying to take on the Iranian AF or more likely its the Turkish one they are actually worried about! The Iranians only have to cash in their IOUs with every Shiite politician to take over the country, the Turks may want to bomb the Kurds into the ground.



Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
Quoting AirRyan (Reply 3):
I'd prefer to see France sell them some Rafale and Leclerc battle tanks so I don't have to watch good F-16's and Abrams MBT someday in the future get stolen or destroyed because they don't know how to use them.

So you rather see some stolen Rafales or Leclerc tanks being stolen rather than F-16s or Abrahams. If you worry about military equipment getting stolen in Iraq I would not sell them anything not even a Mig 19 or WW II tank

Glad someone is essentially asking the first question - WHY? There would be one purpose that occurs to me - front line interception for any Israeli raid on Iran. That is what the Shia will be asking for.
 
11Bravo
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:51 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
If you worry about military equipment getting stolen in Iraq I would not sell them anything not even a Mig 19 or WW II tank.

It would be nice to see western democracies consider where these weapons will end up, or rather who will be using them, and for what purpose, before they get too excited about supplying Iraq with advanced systems of any type.

The future of Iraq is anything but certain. While the security situation has improved significantly, the political landscape remains very murky and uncertain. We simply don't know what Iraq will look like once US forces are gone. There is still the possibility of civil war and/or partition. Do we want weapons we provided to be used in that possible scenario?

Given the large Shia majority in Iraq, it seems very likely that Iraq will eventually develop strong ties with Iran. I also think it's probable that Iran is heading down a road to conflict with the West in some form or another. Given that combination, it would be unfortunate if the West provided weapons to an Iran-Iraq alliance that we then found ourselves in armed conflict with.

Iraq doesn't need high performance aircraft like the F-16, or sophisticated modern MBTs, to deal with its internal security problems. Perhaps some nice COIN aircraft would be appropriate, but not anything that could be turned against us in a significant way.

Eventually Iraq will need to field a military that can protect the country from external threats, but for now that can be done by the United States. Let's wait and see if a stable, predictable Iraq emerges before we start handing out lots of modern weapons. The Iraq War has been characterized by unpredictability and unintended consequences. It would be nice if we learned a lesson from that and refrained from unnecessary actions that we latter come to regret.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:27 pm



Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 12):

Given the large Shia majority in Iraq, it seems very likely that Iraq will eventually develop strong ties with Iran. I also think it's probable that Iran is heading down a road to conflict with the West in some form or another. Given that combination, it would be unfortunate if the West provided weapons to an Iran-Iraq alliance that we then found ourselves in armed conflict with.

Decades from now perhaps. At that point, who knows what either Iran or Iraq will look like. But today I think the memories of the Iran-Iraq war are far too vivid in the minds of both nations to develop any sort of ties. Iraq knows just as well as we do that Iran provides aid and sanctuary to those carrying out terrorist attacks against allied forces, Iraqi security forces, and Iraqi civilians. There is no love lost between the two.

To modify an expression for my own devices: (spilled) blood is thicker than (holy) water  Wink

Concern of 36 F-16s ending up in Iran's hands should not stop this deal. An air force is an important asset that will allow Iraq to stand on its own feet as an effective government. Iran certainly has access to equally modern fighters thanks to good 'ole Russia.
 
11Bravo
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:14 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
Decades from now perhaps.

Perhaps you're right, I hope you're right, but if the Iraq War has taught us one thing it's that the Sunni-Shia rivalry is THE dominant dynamic in Iraqi society.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
But today I think the memories of the Iran-Iraq war are far too vivid in the minds of both nations to develop any sort of ties.

The Iran-Iraq war was a conflict between a Sunni led Iraqi government and Shia Iran. It is a mistake, in my opinion, to think nationalism on the part of the the Iraqis is a driving force. There is virtually no evidence to support the idea that some sense of national identity plays an decisive or even important role in Iraq.

One of the great failings of the Bush Administration's Iraq policy was to not understand and/or adequately consider the implications of the Shia-Sunni sectarian division in Iraq. You are doing more of the same here by assuming that nationalism, vis a vis Iran, is more important than sectarian identity.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
Iraq knows just as well as we do that Iran provides aid and sanctuary to those carrying out terrorist attacks against allied forces, Iraqi security forces, and Iraqi civilians.

...., and those attacks are being perpetrated, not by Iranians, but by Iraqi Shia who are motivated by sectarian allegiance, not Iranian nationalism.
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trex8
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:36 pm



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
Iraq knows just as well as we do that Iran provides aid and sanctuary to those carrying out terrorist attacks against allied forces, Iraqi security forces, and Iraqi civilians. There is no love lost between the two.

are you serious? the Shiite government now controlling (and likely to be forever controlling) the Iraqi government owe their very lives during Saddams time to help from their co religionists in Iran. There is some fational fighting between Shiite groups for sure but overall the Iraqi and Iranian Shiites are as one as any group is in todays Iraq. If the Sunnis get hold of power again you may have a point but that ain't going to happen unless the Saudis invade to help them kick the Shia in the ground again!
 
fridgmus
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:12 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
I wonder though, what is the state of their Air Force pilots?

I was up in Kirkuk in 2006/2007, where some are trained, the US Instructor pilots had their work cut out for them. Most of the experienced pilots are gone, a few are dead. Some of the pilot candidates had a hard time reading and writing Arabic, much less English. Others were pretty good student pilots. This is not meant as a dig against the Iraqi Pilot Candidates, it's just what the IP's have to work with. I escorted some work crews to their facilities and met some. They were quite friendly and very enthusiastic and want their own Air Force to defend their country.

As long as we keep it up, there's no doubt in my mind they be able to skillfully fly the F-16.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 3):
I'd prefer to see France sell them some Rafale and Leclerc battle tanks so I don't have to watch good F-16's and Abrams MBT someday in the future get stolen or destroyed because they don't know how to use them.

Well said AirRyan! thumbsup 

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
they should be buying a bunch of choppers and transports before trying to take on the Iranian AF or more likely its the Turkish one they are actually worried about! The Iranians only have to cash in their IOUs with every Shiite politician to take over the country, the Turks may want to bomb the Kurds into the ground.

 checkmark 

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 9):
who's actually paying for all this????

We are! (For the time being anyway)

This whole thing is far from over! Just my  twocents 

F
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N328KF
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:15 am



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 16):
We are! (For the time being anyway)

The WSJ article specifically said that the Iraqis were offering to foot the full $12bil tab for F-16s.
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AirRyan
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:07 am



Quoting Columba (Reply 10):
So you rather see some stolen Rafales or Leclerc tanks being stolen rather than F-16s or Abrahams. If you worry about military equipment getting stolen in Iraq I would not sell them anything not even a Mig 19 or WW II tank.

Not so much worried about the good tech ending up in Iran aka China aka Russia, just the fact that Iraqi's personnel operating would likely give our good equipment a bad name! I think a Rafale is a better choice for a country with a blank check to write from this point in time anyways and as a US American taxpayer, I'd rather have cash than their business for the reimbursement of what we've paid to "liberate" Iraq.
 
fridgmus
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:29 am



Quoting N328KF (Reply 17):
The WSJ article specifically said that the Iraqis were offering to foot the full $12bil tab for F-16s.

I'll believe that when I see it my friend!!!
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trex8
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:19 pm

12 billion for 36 F16s, don't care if they end up being a new block 70 version, that is an awfully steep price to pay. Is Lockheed Martin owned by KBR now?  Smile
 
columba
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RE: WSJ: Iraq May Buy 36 F-16 From The US

Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:48 pm



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 16):
I'd prefer to see France sell them some Rafale and Leclerc battle tanks so I don't have to watch good F-16's and Abrams MBT someday in the future get stolen or destroyed because they don't know how to use them.

Well said AirRyan!



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 18):
Not so much worried about the good tech ending up in Iran aka China aka Russia, just the fact that Iraqi's personnel operating would likely give our good equipment a bad name! I think a Rafale is a better choice for a country with a blank check to write from this point in time anyways and as a US American taxpayer, I'd rather have cash than their business for the reimbursement of what we've paid to "liberate" Iraq.

I think the French would disgree with you since they are worried about the good name, too.
I also believe that Iraq does not need a state of the art fighter as the Rafale, late F16s model or Eurofighter and older version F16 or Mig/SUs are good enough for the task they need to fulfill.
BTW what makes you think that the Rafale is not as good as the F16 ?
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