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KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:40 pm

Breaking news: the Bush Administration has canceled the tanker competition.
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2008/09/10/tanker-canceled-wsj/
 
KPDX
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:00 pm

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Beaucaire
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:07 pm

..I was very blue-eyed believing EADS/Northrop ever had any chance in bringing that deal home..

 Yeah sure
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Venus6971
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:12 pm

Calling AMARC, get those E models to Witchita for new engines and where they a parked throughout the states Preflight and get the crews requalified.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
redflyer
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:19 pm



Quote:
Pentagon cancelled the latest round of bidding between the Boeing Co. and the Northrop Grumman Corp. for the 179 planes. It now plans to hold a new competition next year.

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2008/09/08/daily21.html

I don't think it's such a big surprise. There's no way they could've held the competition under such tight timelines and NOT expected to be criticized by the losing side and their supporters for whatever choice they made. Not to mention the ripe appellate field they would have opened up for lots of pickings.
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gsosbee
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:23 pm

If the Congress doesn't force the issue now (and I am sure it will not) no member can claim the troops come first.
 
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STT757
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:24 pm

Just split the deal, 100 for Boeing and 100 for Northrop.
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zeke
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:33 pm

Guess Boeing got exactly what it wanted.

Better get a new set of glasses, another RFP to read.
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Moose135
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:39 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Just split the deal, 100 for Boeing and 100 for Northrop.

Given the added costs of training and supporting two different airframes, you would end up with something like 50 each.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
TropicBird
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:41 pm

Just what the new RFP will specify is now the big question. I suspect that will depend on what congress says along with the next president. Boeing will now lobby harder to keep the extra fuel credit language out of the RFP so the "right size" 767 can prevail. But keep in mind there are also at least one or two air-mobility type studies in the works and those will also likely shape the next RFP. If those lean to more airlift needs, then a larger aircraft may be sought.
 
redflyer
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:42 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
Guess Boeing got exactly what it wanted.

In business, it's not always the best that wins; only the shrewdest.  Wink
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Revelation
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:51 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 4):
Calling AMARC, get those E models to Witchita for new engines and where they a parked throughout the states Preflight and get the crews requalified.

Makes sense to me, as long as it's done on a fixed-price contract.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 5):

http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2008/09/08/daily21.html

It also says:

Quote:
“They’re basically scrapping it,” says Sam Sackett, a spokesman for Congressman Todd Tiahrt. “The congressman had requested more time and that’s exactly what’s happening. They apparently acknowledged serious problems in the manner that they tried to force a French tanker on the Air Force.

 Yeah sure

Maybe we should wait for a new Congress!
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zeke
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:53 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
In business, it's not always the best that wins; only the shrewdest

With more delays to the Italian tankers, Wedgetail, the 787, and 748F/i and a strike predicted to last for over 8 weeks, asking for more time can stitch you up as well.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
dragon6172
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:01 pm

When did it become so hard to buy some freakin airplanes. The whole process needs revamped, because it sucks ass.
Phrogs Phorever
 
Aither
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:24 pm

And by the way, Boeing is complaining at the WTO against state aids...
Never trust the obvious
 
AviationAddict
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:34 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 4):
Calling AMARC, get those E models to Witchita for new engines and where they a parked throughout the states Preflight and get the crews requalified.

The 135s that are in service now are more than addequately meet the demands of the armed forces; they aren't going to need to add capacity anytime soon. Futhermore, these birds have been flying for 50+ years, this delay isn't going to make any real difference in the long run.
 
TropicBird
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:34 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 14):
When did it become so hard to buy some freakin airplanes. The whole process needs revamped, because it sucks ass.

This program is a victim of a much bigger problem facing the United States. That of the outsourcing of jobs and the manipulation of the entire legislative process by special interest groups. When you have those groups fighting each other as they have done on this program, you get this outcome.

What I find most surprising here is why did they even allow EADS to participate considering that in many congressional minds, a European (foreign) aircraft was unacceptable. So unless another American company has a commercial aircraft platform ready to go (which they don't) it will have to go to Boeing by default. So this entire process was truly a waste of time and money. NG/EADS would be fools to try again, they will ultimately lose (again).
 
redflyer
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:49 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 14):
When did it become so hard to buy some freakin airplanes.

When the USAF took its eye off of the ball in combination with too much political influence and peddling.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
Aither
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:56 pm



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 17):
NG/EADS would be fools to try again, they will ultimately lose

At least they make sure Boeing get too much money military contracts. For only that reason, it's worth to compete.
Never trust the obvious
 
SpeedBirdA380
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:57 pm



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 17):
What I find most surprising here is why did they even allow EADS to participate considering that in many congressional minds, a European (foreign) aircraft was unacceptable.

I agree. Even If the best tanker for the job is the EAD'S/NG tanker, due to politic's I dont think the US Airforce will be "allowed to buy it".
 
redflyer
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:10 pm



Quoting Aither (Reply 19):
At least they make sure Boeing get too much money military contracts. For only that reason, it's worth to compete.

I think it would be worth it to compete because if Boeing pitches the KC-777, NG/EADS can now pitch the 330F airframe. Maybe even throw in a little GEnX action while they're at it. There's no way the USAF will be able to field the new KC-X on their originally planned time line so both suppliers can now pitch their latest and best offering available.
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gsosbee
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:23 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
I think it would be worth it to compete because if Boeing pitches the KC-777, NG/EADS can now pitch the 330F airframe. Maybe even throw in a little GEnX action while they're at it. There's no way the USAF will be able to field the new KC-X on their originally planned time line so both suppliers can now pitch their latest and best offering available.

Unfortunately that isn't how it will work. Boeing will roll out the -200AT and say that is it.

The issue here is not the tanker, but keeping an EADS production line out of the United States. Now that they have done that, they will say the -200AT is what the Air Force wants (doesn't matter what the Air Force says).

Big gamble and a lot of money now to the Obama campaign. If McCain wins, it will be interesting.
 
Ken777
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:24 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 6):
If the Congress doesn't force the issue now (and I am sure it will not) no member can claim the troops come first.

When talking about the troops coming first you need to look at various things like length of troop deployments and time at home between deployments, benefits like the GI Bill, taking care of vets long term and how hard the administration has fought giving Agent Orange compensation to deep water sailors exposed and having the identified conditions, etc. Then look at the suicide rate, the increase of officers and enlisted personnel who were considered career now leaving the service. Throw in the abnormally high percentage of troops in Iraq who are on anti-depressants and other meds and you have a pretty good outline of what is needed for the troops to come first.

In reality, the tanker is pretty far down the list when it comes to putting the troops first. Taking care of the troops means that if the bloody B-52s can still fly then the bloody KC-135s can still fly.
 
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zeke
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:38 pm

NG statement on the cancellation :

http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/pages/news_releases.html?d=150075

Quote:
"Northrop Grumman entered this competition in good faith and proposed the most modern, most capable tanker available, at the best value to the American taxpayer. While we understand the complexities of this procurement, we are greatly concerned about the potential future implications for the defense acquisition process."

Boeing has no statement at this stage, either it is late, or it is being developed in Japanese or Italian. Possibly the people who write them are out on strike. Rumours are about they want 6 months to come up with a statement to cope with the change.  sarcastic 

 duck 
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Flighty
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:49 pm

This is funny. At least we didn't spend a whole lot of money for nothing.

On the bright side, doing this will get us higher technology equipment.

On the minus side, this will make it (theoretically) weaker to fight WW-III for a certain amount of time. But I am sure this doesn't trouble Lord Boeing at all, who has essentially dictated that USAF not employ new tankers for now. All hail the powerful wise ones, our Boeing lords.
 
Lumberton
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 24):
Boeing has no statement at this stage

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN1043288320080910

Quote:
"The Boeing Company welcomes the Defense Department's decision and believes that it will best serve the warfighter in allowing the appropriate time for this important and complex procurement to be conducted in a thorough and open competition," said spokesman Dan Beck.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Revelation
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:57 pm

So, what will we talk about now?  Angry
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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zeke
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:05 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 26):

Nothing was on the Boeing site, or the IDS site, they now have made a comment on their tanker blog. Still not the same as a formal statement, or a press release, you know the ones, they have a nice graphic up the top that says "Boeing Statement" and start off with something like "Boeing Statement: Renegotiation Fails; Strike Called"
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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moo
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:11 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 26):
"The Boeing Company welcomes the Defense Department's decision and believes that it will best serve the warfighter in allowing the appropriate time for this important and complex procurement to be conducted in a thorough and open competition,"



Quoting Zeke (Reply 24):
"Northrop Grumman entered this competition in good faith and proposed the most modern, most capable tanker available, at the best value to the American taxpayer.

Oh for goodness sake, stfu about the 'taxpayer' or the 'warfighter' - neither of you give two hoots about either, the only thing you *are* interested in is your companies bottom line.

Enough with the PR crap.

(edited to point out that this is directed at both Boeing and EADS/NG, not the relevent posters here)

[Edited 2008-09-10 10:31:21]
 
sxf24
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:51 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 24):
Boeing has no statement at this stage, either it is late, or it is being developed in Japanese or Italian. Possibly the people who write them are out on strike. Rumours are about they want 6 months to come up with a statement to cope with the change.

Boeing released an official statement hours ago.
 
gsosbee
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
When talking about the troops coming first you need to look at various things like length of troop deployments and time at home between deployments, benefits like the GI Bill, taking care of vets long term and how hard the administration has fought giving Agent Orange compensation to deep water sailors exposed and having the identified conditions, etc. Then look at the suicide rate, the increase of officers and enlisted personnel who were considered career now leaving the service. Throw in the abnormally high percentage of troops in Iraq who are on anti-depressants and other meds and you have a pretty good outline of what is needed for the troops to come first.

The US Court in New York controls the Agent Orange issue and has consistently held that as soon as verifiable evidence is presented to the court, the court will act. To date many have tried, but none have been able to provide positive evidence. For example, there were air crews that drank AO just to show what a man they were. This group has no higher of incidence as any other group. This group should have a incidence rate of at least twice the other groups.

As far as the current administration, the issue was all of the pork Congress attached to the bills. I assume you have current knowledge of the "anti-depressants and other meds and you have a pretty good outline of what is needed for the troops to come first " statement, but remember widely available "anti-depressants and other meds" were not around until 10 to 15 years ago so your statement, while important, has to be taken into perspective. I would suspect that anyone at Iwo or Okinawa would have been in need of a great deal of care also. My Dad was in the first group that liberated Dachau, and until the day he died, just the mention of the name sent him off the deep end.

What we need is a funding mechanism that funds what is needed and not what some Congressman needs funded in order to get reelected.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 25):
On the bright side, doing this will get us higher technology equipment.

Wrong. Unless Congress specifies no single source, Boeing will be the only company bidding as NG can read the writing on the wall. Boeing will just roll out the -200AT and say it is that or nothing.
 
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United787
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:02 pm

What a disaster this whole thing has been...as an American, I am embarrased... Yet another failing of the Bush administration...
 
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EPA001
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:55 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 24):
NG statement on the cancellation :

http://www.irconnect.com/noc/press/pages/news_releases.html?d=150075

Quote:
"Northrop Grumman entered this competition in good faith and proposed the most modern, most capable tanker available, at the best value to the American taxpayer. While we understand the complexities of this procurement, we are greatly concerned about the potential future implications for the defense acquisition process."

Boeing has no statement at this stage, either it is late, or it is being developed in Japanese or Italian. Possibly the people who write them are out on strike. Rumours are about they want 6 months to come up with a statement to cope with the change.


Well this unbelievable news shows how much pull the Boeing fan boys in congress really have. NG is no small company, but I seriously doubt that NG has so much pull to change the situation on a deal where they did not like the outcome.

So much for free trade and fair competition. Those responsible for this should be ashamed of themselves. True, the USAF made small errors in the procedures, 8 protest of Boeing were upheld where they submitted a 100 or so. Due to that the RFP was slightly modified, still leaving Boeing with a no win chance on points. And now what happens, the whole process is called off to start a total new one.

Who knows when that procedure will be finished. No doubt Boeing will now be pushing either the finally finished B767-AT (at that time it should at least finally have left the drawing board) and I seriously doubt if NG-EADS will enter the competition again. Why should they? If they win, Boeing protests and nothing happens. If Boeing wins, I am sure the "verdict" and the political backing of it will be as such that NG has no grounds to protest. Boeing have turned this around into a no win scenario for the better competitor. That is quite an achievement.

I hope they do as well on the B787, that would be in their interest and that of their customers. And of the aviation fans, a group of which I think I belong to. Most of the customers were (as always) arrogantly snubbed off by Boeing regarding the delay compensations! Maybe they will stall this tanker procurement process just long enough for them to offer the B787-T at a time where NG-EADS are not completely ready yet for the tanker version of a A350-XWB-T! Although maybe far fetched, right now I believe anything can happen. Just as long as Boeing wins!

What a weak sore losers whining company that has become, regardless the quality of their usual fine products. Their workforce deserves a much and much better management and military sales department! This whole thing has now become so dirty, and so pro Boeing biased, it almost makes me, no, it does make me sick!  mad   vomit   vomit   vomit   mad 
 
astuteman
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 6:57 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
In business, it's not always the best that wins; only the shrewdest.

Like shrewdness had anything at all to do with this........

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 22):
but keeping an EADS production line out of the United States

Cos that would be a really, really bad thing, wouldn't it?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 25):
On the bright side, doing this will get us higher technology equipment.

I really, really wouldn't bet too much money on that. In fact, mine's going on the opposite.

Rgds
 
seefivein
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:00 pm

Gsosbee -- Wrong. Unless Congress specifies no single source, Boeing will be the only company bidding as NG can read the writing on the wall. Boeing will just roll out the -200AT and say it is that or nothing.

United787 -- What a disaster this whole thing has been...as an American, I am embarrased... Yet another failing of the Bush administration...


Agreed
 
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:06 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
Guess Boeing got exactly what it wanted.

Better get a new set of glasses, another RFP to read.



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 22):
The issue here is not the tanker, but keeping an EADS production line out of the United States. Now that they have done that, they will say the -200AT is what the Air Force wants (doesn't matter what the Air Force says).

Exactly. Boeing fears an Airbus factory in the US, because it would make Airbus more independent of the fluctuations of the US dollar.
The military contract was needed by Airbus to get the approval of the European trade unions, at first the factory would have been just an assembly line for pre-fabricated parts, but I'm sure Airbus's longterm plans included full manufacture of aircraft from cutting metal to the final product in the US. I wonder if they will still go ahead, even without the military order.

The other advantage for Boeing is that they are now the exclusive manufacturer for large US military aircraft. American tax payers, now you'll get screwed big time!.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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chrisnh
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:29 pm

Three cheers for that great 'Global Economy' that seemed like 'such a swell idea at the time.' I am appalled at the hypocrisy of people who puff out their chests at how 'great' a global economy will be...as long as the business is coming in and not going out. Talk about selective rationalization.
 
redflyer
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:37 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 22):
Boeing will roll out the -200AT and say that is it.

If the new RFP, whenever it comes out, stipulates an advantage for carrying more fuel I seriously doubt Boeing will pitch the 200AT. I hate to say this and to the chagrin of all the EADS/Airbus fans, this deal, while extremely political, was scuttled when the USAF lost its focus on the RFP and went off-script after NG/EADS sold them on the merits of a larger tanker.

Quoting United787 (Reply 32):
as an American, I am embarrased... Yet another failing of the Bush administration...

That's funny. Every key member of the Bush administration has supported and stood by the USAF's decision to award the contract to NG/EADS. I think the Bush administration, and a McCain administration - if he were to win in November, would be far more fair towards this process from the standpoint of free and unfettered trade than a Democratic administration would.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
NG is no small company, but I seriously doubt that NG has so much pull to change the situation on a deal where they did not like the outcome.

NG has plenty of pull. It was their lobbying that convinced McCain to get involved and force the USAF to change the RFP to level the playing field so that NG could participate.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 34):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
In business, it's not always the best that wins; only the shrewdest.

Like shrewdness had anything at all to do with this........

Well, if you're correct then we can put to rest all of the "Boeing got its way" comments.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
Boeing fears an Airbus factory in the US, because it would make Airbus more independent of the fluctuations of the US dollar.

Boeing would fear any new factory, regardless of the manufacturer, capable of spitting out entire wide-body airliners.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
Ken777
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:39 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
Boeing fears an Airbus factory in the US, because it would make Airbus more independent of the fluctuations of the US dollar.

Currencies are like pendulums and they can always swing back. Airbus sure didn't suffer when the Euro was under 90 cents.

Personally I believe that it is a smart move on the part of the DoD. Making a mad dash to get the deal finalized before Bush left office just wasn't wise IMHO. Now the AF can re-look at what their redefined needs are and both competitors can go after this new proposal. In that event I believe Airbus might have an advantage because they will be able to offer the 330F.
 
TropicBird
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 39):
RFP and went off-script

So true -- it was scripted -- by Boeing and some former leaders in the Air Force. It then went off script when the new leadership in the DOD got involved and threw the old script in the trash and picked NG/EADS.
 
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EPA001
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:14 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
Now the AF can re-look at what their redefined needs are and both competitors can go after this new proposal. In that event I believe Airbus might have an advantage because they will be able to offer the 330F.

If the USAF, after so many years, still does not know what it wants, they better stop operations. They now do know what they want, they selected their winner (and rightly so based on the qualities of the winning bid), but sadly made small minor mistakes in the procedures. For that the GAO "punished" them.

I hope you are right about the last sentence in your post and that an as much tweaked A330-F based airframe will in the end come out on top! But right now I believe that if Boeing would put forward a B737-100 it will still win. At least the many non realistic Boeing fan boys will argue the superiority of that old frame over the newest A330-F. They did argue just as easily the non-superiority of the B767-Frankentanker compared to the current NG-EADS proposed A330-MRTT, so I see no reason why they would not do so on any other type of airframe Boeing comes up with!

Kind regards.
 
redflyer
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:39 pm



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 42):
At least the many non realistic Boeing fan boys

You make a comment like that, and then you say...

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 42):
but sadly made small minor mistakes in the procedures. For that the GAO "punished" them.

The GAO did not view the mistakes as "minor". Had the mistakes been minor the award would not have been over-turned. And the GAO does not "punish" anyone. They provide an unbiased forum. Woe the government agency or political lackey that ignores what the GAO says.

As I see it, the USAF is to blame entirely for this mess because they didn't adhere to their own RFP requirements. And then, after the GAO's ruling they tried to cram the revised RFP into a very compressed time line in order to ensure they got the plane they wanted regardless of who was in the White House come January 20.

The reason they didn't abide by the selection process is because they decided somewhere along the way that they really did prefer the NG/EADS bigger airplane. Kudos to them for being able to think outside of the box! (How rare is that for a government agency???) But they should've stopped the process at that point and re-issued another RFP with the revised requirements favoring a larger bird. Instead, they moved forward with the existing process and picked the airplane they really wanted ensuring it would be over-turned on appeal.

Blame Boeing or the GAO or anyone else all you want, but the fact is the USAF f'd this up to begin with.
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Flighty
Posts: 7875
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:52 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 43):
As I see it, the USAF is to blame entirely for this mess because they didn't adhere to their own RFP requirements.

So that means we should lose wars? God forbid the US military doesn't win the paperwork championship. I guess we should just have lawyers and no Pentagon then?

I am asking seriously.

Doctors say the same thing. If your lawyer doesn't like how I practice medicine, why don't you call your lawyer next time you need surgery so he can do it.

Why should it matter how well the USAF follows its RFP? I totally missed that part.
 
redflyer
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 44):
Doctors say the same thing. If your lawyer doesn't like how I practice medicine, why don't you call your lawyer next time you need surgery so he can do it.

Why should it matter how well the USAF follows its RFP? I totally missed that part.

Valid points you raise. But then I should ask: why bother to have an RFP in the first place? Just sole-source the award. What's the point of having an RFP if you're going to ignore it to begin with? Besides, if a supplier doesn't have confidence in the integrity of the selection process, they simply won't bother to participate. And that will be to the detriment of the USAF and the warfighter and the US taxpayer.

By the way, lest you think I'm wrong in my assessment that this mess is the USAF's fault, SoD Gates feels the same way:

Quote:
"Over the past seven years the process has become enormously complex and emotional -- in no small part because of mistakes and missteps along the way by the Department of Defense," Gates said in his opening statement this morning before the House Armed Services Committee.

[emphasis added]
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn.../AR2008091000986.html?hpid=topnews

[Edited 2008-09-10 14:07:27]
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EPA001
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RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:11 pm

@ Red Flyer: the whole procedure took several years, included thousands and thousands of pages, almost uncountable meetings with Boeing, and later also NG-EADS.

After they lost the bid to NG-EADS (while already officially celebrating their win, being officially congratulated by some senator already (!) many people keep forgetting that) they (Boeing) started digging and digging!

In the end Boeing cooked up over 100 supposedly serious errors or frauds in the bidding process. In the end, no frauds were found. Just deviations from the original specs. Remember Boeing was present at all the meetings where these deviations were discussed. At the time they did not object because they arrogantly assumed they were going to win anyway.

Only after they lost they pulled out every juristic issue their lawyers could find and brought a big cooked up case to the GAO. Only 8 protests of the about 100 submitted were upheld. I repeat that no frauds were found, contrary to the earlier USAF-Boeing practices with the famous corrupt lease deal.

The GAO verdict resulted only in a slightly modified RFP. The USAF did not do so bad as everyone from the Boeing camp had wanted us to believe. Actually, if you see how complex the whole process was and how long it dragged on, with so many people involved over the years, I think the work of the USAF has actually been of a very, very high quality. I even think there are not that much better procurement cases around in the US (or anywhere else?)

Many people, as usual, easily "rule for themselves" on this if they here something, no matter if they like or dislike what they here. And no matter if what they hear is true. And all the quality of the earlier work which has been put into realizing this whole RFP and the bids of both parties, is way too easily forgotten. And Boeing has put as much work in that Bid as NG or the USAF.

But to come back at the issue, in the end the GAO outcome was not what Boeing wanted, far from it actually (because with an only slightly modified RFP they still could not win on merits against the NG-EADS A330-MRTT) so they came up with all the stalling tactics they could find. They never really made a believable motivation why they needed more time- No doubt they lobbied for that extra time in Congress as well. And they are rewarded for it. I for one am now a firm believer, as I have stated before, that anything Boeing comes up with now, will be declared a winner right away.

And that is very sad, and it will cost the American tax payer unnecessary much money (I know, I am not paying for it) and will almost absolutely guarantee that the warfighter Boeing talks so hypocrite about, will not get the best plane for the job. For sure the worthiness of the name Boeing has de-valuated enormous due to all this. I doubt if it will have repercussions in their sales, but their name is not nearly as brightly shining as it did a couple of years ago!

And I think I will leave it at that and await the new developments in 2009-2010 on this issue!

[Edited 2008-09-10 14:20:47]
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 14485
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:17 pm



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
Those responsible for this should be ashamed of themselves.

You mean the USAF?

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
True, the USAF made small errors in the procedures, 8 protest of Boeing were upheld where they submitted a 100 or so.

One must agree that if the USAF made zero errors, the KC-45A would be on its way to being funded in the next budget. And people keep thinking 8 out of 100 errors means the 8 were insignificant, but that's far from the truth. GAO found these errors were significant, and DoD had no choice but agree.

I hope this has taught the USAF a lesson and their next RFP will be as close to error free as humanly possible.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
And now what happens, the whole process is called off to start a total new one.

That's one of the more remarkable things here. I exepected that Boeing might take their ball and go home, but I never expected the DoD to drop back 10 yards and punt.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 33):
Who knows when that procedure will be finished.

Or if it will even be restarted, given the fact that the next administration perhaps may be (ahem) a bit more financially constrained.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 39):
I hate to say this and to the chagrin of all the EADS/Airbus fans, this deal, while extremely political, was scuttled when the USAF lost its focus on the RFP and went off-script after NG/EADS sold them on the merits of a larger tanker.

But isn't that their right? There's been many RFPs where what they bought was not what they thought they were after when it started.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
In that event I believe Airbus might have an advantage because they will be able to offer the 330F.

Nothing about all of this will change the fact that if the AIr Force wants a mid sized multi mission airplane, the A330F is the best choice.
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gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:34 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 47):
One must agree that if the USAF made zero errors, the KC-45A would be on its way to being funded in the next budget.

Nope. Congress (with their masterful 17% approval rating) would have never funded the NG airplane. That is the "politically charged" part of Gates' comments.

It is sad, but really no worse than either the Australian fighter/bomber debate or the cluster surrounding the A400M.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:44 pm

They had better hope that the KC135E's are in good condition.

IMO this competition will not re start any time soon.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: KC-X Tanker Competition Canceled!

Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:00 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 49):
MO this competition will not re start any time soon.

What makes you so certain it will be a competition, or that a new RFP will be issued?

The USAF/DOD, especially when staffed by new political appointees may just start counting seats on the Appropriations/Armed Services committess of both houses and decide to take the path of least resistance?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 43):
Blame Boeing or the GAO or anyone else all you want, but the fact is the USAF f'd this up to begin with.

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