Bramble
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Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:23 pm

Had a look at the thread on the West Wing aircraft and it got me thinking. Searched for other threads on the subject but no luck.

The current 2 B747-200 are circa 1989-1990. What would their service life be? As USAF aircraft they would be well looked after.

What options exist for a replacment airframe. The B744 is an obvious replacement. But would a B777 be viable?

What about a new AF1 for 'a new President for a New Century'.......B787! OK the century is 8 years old and the B787 may not be ready for POTUS service until after the next election in 2012! But it would be a great statement in support of US industry.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:28 pm

This subject is well-well-well cover. Try a search... no less then two or three threads have run on this very subject in just the last 2 months.

The short answer... there will be no replacement for at least 10 years. The current VC-25 is still very new with very low flight hours and is one of the best maintained aircraft in the world
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Bramble
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:52 pm



Quoting Bramble (Thread starter):
Searched for other threads on the subject but no luck.

Thread got moved....obviously I should have searched in the military forum.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:13 pm



Quoting Bramble (Reply 2):
obviously I should have searched in the military forum.

I had found about 10 or so in the Military Forum, but could not get it to post due to the current 'error' going around. The Mod's tend to delete the threads in Civil due to the large number that keep showing up. Just search under key word 'Replacement'... 'Thread Starters Only'
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
columba
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting Bramble (Thread starter):
The B744 is an obvious replacement.

No it is not  Wink The 744 is out of production and I doubt AF 1 will be a second hand plane  Smile

The 747-8I might be an option but really this topic has been discussed over and over  Smile
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
jutes85
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:08 pm

I heard that they are buying a retired IL-78 and converting it for AF1. Just a rumour though.
nothing
 
keesje
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:30 pm

Yes the range, modern technology and its size would make the 787 the right aircraft for the US president in this new century.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:00 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
Yes the range, modern technology and its size would make the 787 the right aircraft for the US president in this new century.

Why is the 787 the right size? From the impact point of view, it would make far less of an impression than a 747 would. I can see, perhaps, a step down to a 777-300ER and given the people and equipment carried on Air Force one that might not be enough airplane. I guess time will tell.
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dl767captain
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:45 pm



Quoting Bramble (Thread starter):
Searched for other threads on the subject but no luck.

There are a billion threads on this subject, one was very recent but maybe it didn't answer your question.

As much as i would like to see a 748i as the new AF1 i think it will still be a while. The fact that there are a few 748s under VIP order (some placed fairly close together) could mean a replacement for AF1s and E-4Bs but like i have been told about a hundred times the current AF1 has a lot of life left in it. I still remember it took some time to retrofit the current 742s to be used as AF1 so the 748s on order could have a chance. I just can't believe they would use an A380, the 747 is big enough but a european plane to hold the US president would piss a lot of people off. The 787/777 may be a little too small so the 747 will be perfect for them.

What will be interesting is what will replace the 757s? maybe a 787 if they need a little larger
 
keesje
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:07 pm

For the EU presidency I think a A380 would suitable choice ( multinational product, leading economic power ).
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Spacepope
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:28 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
For the EU presidency I think a A380 would suitable choice ( multinational product, leading economic power ).

There are also those that think te A380 would be a graet choice, its story so far being a great metaphor for the EU.
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Oroka
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:41 pm



Quoting Jutes85 (Reply 5):
I heard that they are buying a retired IL-78 and converting it for AF1. Just a rumour though.

I am going with that answer for every 'new AF1' thread I see for now on!

744 is done, no one else is getting any if they didnt order them already. The USAF will be ordering 748s for the YAL-1 program, so they will be in the inventory for a few years, but by the time the VC-25 is ready to be put out to pasture (20 years from now), the 747 will be long replaced by something much bigger or something much faster.
 
keesje
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:55 pm



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 10):
There are also those that think te A380 would be a graet choice, its story so far being a great metaphor for the EU.

Big, powerfull, efficient, silent, reliable and popular is what you're hinting at no doubt  Wink

Back to topic, what about a B52?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:58 am



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 8):
but like i have been told about a hundred times the current AF1 has a lot of life left in it.

Very true, but remember VC-137C (B-707-320B) # 62-6000 retired with about 12,000 hours on her, and her sister # 72-7000 retired with less than 6,000 hours on her.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:57 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Very true, but remember VC-137C (B-707-320B) # 62-6000 retired with about 12,000 hours on her, and her sister # 72-7000 retired with less than 6,000 hours on her.

That's trued but i think that had to do more with the size of the 707, it's fairly small and was pretty out of date compared to a 747. Going from a 742 to a 748 wouldn't really be a huge change since the current 742 has had so many updates including engines. As much as i would like to see a new AF1 and maybe a few more (757 replacement) it may not happen.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:13 pm

The Air Force is waiting for Northwest to retire the DC-9s. Northwest, on the other hand, is waiting on the Air Force to replace the VC-25s before they retire the '9s from the fleet.

It's an old-fashioned stand off. Who will blink first... Big grin
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Oroka
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:43 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 15):
It's an old-fashioned stand off. Who will blink first... 

The USAF will blink first. Northwest is plotting to have the DC-9s be the first aircraft seeing 100 years continual service! Our grandchildren will fly the exact same DC-9s on the exact same routes that their great grandfathers did!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:08 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 16):
The USAF will blink first. Northwest is plotting to have the DC-9s be the first aircraft seeing 100 years continual service!

But, the USAF is 10-12 years ahead of the NW DC-9s, with their older KC-135s, C-130s, and B-52s.

 bigthumbsup 
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:23 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
No it is not The 744 is out of production and I doubt AF 1 will be a second hand plane

If the they wanted the 744 (brand new) Boeing would be more than glad to give it to them.
They still make 744Fs which means all the tooling is there. The US government is not an Airline if they wanted a 744 Boeing would be happy to make 2-3 for them. They would want them to take 748s but the the gov. was hell bent on the 744 that is what they would get.  Wink

Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
Yes the range, modern technology and its size would make the 787 the right aircraft for the US president in this new century.

to small

Quoting Oroka (Reply 11):
744 is done, no one else is getting any if they didnt order them already.

read above.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Flighty
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:58 pm



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 18):
read above.

Read above? Most sources say the 744 is essentially out of production today. They are going thru the motions on the last few frames but their ability to generate new slots may be completely gone. The upper part of the line may be in a state of shutdown today, as we speak.

I thought it was a Space Shuttle type situation: they need to stop building 744s so they can re-tool for the 748.
 
Oroka
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:29 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
I thought it was a Space Shuttle type situation: they need to stop building 744s so they can re-tool for the 748.

That is correct. While a 2-3 frame order would be convenient for Boeing and would keep the 747 line busy for a while longer and eat up the delay in the 748.
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:06 am

How about a low hour 744 airframe with Genx-2b67's? After all, the current AF1 is a 742 with 744 engines...
 
SXDFC
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:05 pm

How about the inside of Air Force One? I believe SAM 28000 recently came out of a heavy check, but I would imagine maybe there are plans to update the current interior, as the current one still seems like it came out of the 1990's in which it did!
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Tugger
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:16 pm



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 8):
it took some time to retrofit the current 742s to be used as AF1

How long did it take to refit to "presidential" levels? And who did the refitting?

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 8):
What will be interesting is what will replace the 757s? maybe a 787 if they need a little larger

That is actually an interesting debate, I would bet it will be the fore mentioned 787. But when would something like that occur and which variant?

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 21):
How about a low hour 744 airframe with Genx-2b67's? After all, the current AF1 is a 742 with 744 engines...

I actually prefer the shorter top deck of the -200 to the -400 and -8I. Just looks better proportionally to me.

Tugg
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EMBQA
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Thu Dec 11, 2008 8:40 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 23):
How long did it take to refit to "presidential" levels? And who did the refitting?

Boeing-Wichita
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:49 am

I still think they should install GEnx-2b's, especially as they don't need any more space (as in the 748i) and the airframes have so much time left on them.

-hey, it could be seen as the office of the president doing its part to reduce emissions, "going green" if you will.

Another added benefit would be the ability for AF-1 to use shorter runways, opening up other airfields.

Win-win as I see it.  yes 
 
Devilfish
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:19 am

Thought I'd throw this in to liven up the thread. The DEW Line is discussing a "new" AF1 by 2017. Given the current financial reality, it's a hardsell -- but 2017? The 748 doesn't seem to meet the minimum in-service criterion by then and there's even a single reduction in Boeing's O&D figure for the 747 this week. But could their long experience in providing past presidential transports be substituted for that?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Flighty
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:32 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 26):
but 2017?

That's actually very soon. This is the type of project that could easily take a lazy contractor 5-6-7-8 years to do.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 25):
I still think they should install GEnx-2b's, especially as they don't need any more space (as in the 748i) and the airframes have so much time left on them.

I can't think of one reason why they would put an unproven, new engine on an aircraft carrying the President. What they have now is perfectly up to the task. In fact its GE CF6-80C2 engines are very modern compared to other things in the USAF. On such low utilization aircraft, fuel efficiency is not very important... would not pay for re-motoring.


I still maintain that the VC-25 most likely should be a 40 year airplane... with a heavy refurbishment / cabin redesign happening right about now at the midpoint in their life cycle.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:28 pm

I'd be shocked if SAM2800 and SAM2900 have cracked the 4000hr marks. That makes them still brand new....
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
747400sp
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:22 pm

Let's see how the Boeing Y-3 turn out, it could be a way better AF1 then anything we have now.  Smile
 
DLA330
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RE: Air Force 1 Replacement

Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:12 pm

I too think that AF1 has quite a bit of life in it. Another 4 to 5 presidential terms could work out quite well for AF1 maybe less than that. Y3 might work out just fine. Maybe the 748i but by then Y3 will have been launched. Unless there is something that can't be retrofitted onto the current AF1.

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