bbaldwin09
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Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:10 am

In the Australian media down here, military aviation specialists have been writing off the JSF saying it would be stupid for the RAAF to buy to replace our F-111 and F/A-18C squadrons.

But can someone please tell me why the JSF is getting written off compared to say the Raptor? I dont see the RAAF having any choice considering the US won't sell the F-22?
BBaldwin09
 
Stealthz
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 am

Main thing wrong with the F-35?

Carlo Kopp and a couple of his contempories in the US that have an agenda of some kind... not sure what kind though!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
AirRyan
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:37 pm

Foor for thought - the USAF, USN, and USMC all tried using the same aircraft once before in teh F-4 Phantom and for the most had little complaints as the F-4 was a great and highly successful aircraft. But the USN and USAF soon realized that they had different needs and the USAF went with the F-15 and the USN went with the F-14, supplemented by the less expensive F/A-18's which the USMC also bought to replace their F-4's with.

When the USAF and USN were lobbying for funding for a replacement to their F-4's they tried to say one platform just could not suit all the different services. But with the JSF they seemed to change their minds and think that if they took a relatively similar aircraft type but slightly modified it for each of the three services, they might be able to make it work. Too bad they choose to base the aircraft off of the least potent variation in the STOVL based F-35B, though. You think the USAF would like to trade in their F-16's for a modified AV-8 Harrier?

The big push with the JSF is pollitics - they involved enough companies and countries so that regardless of how fat, dumb, and lazy the program got bureaucracy would ensure the success, or at least the guarantee that the program wouldn't be cancelled. Now whether all three variants come out with happy customers remains yet to be seen - oh it will fly, but will it accomplish the goals as set forth by the customers at the prices promised by LM?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:59 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
the USN went with the F-14, supplemented by the less expensive F/A-18's

Actually the USN tried to go with the A-12 to replace the A-6 but was forced to go with just F/A-18's when they fouled up the A-12 program.

The F-35 is suffering from what pretty much every aircraft suffers from at this point in its development: it's too heavy, it's late and it costs too much. But I have faith that LM will get it right. They darn well better: we can't afford a "do over".

Bottom line to me is the big winner in the program seems to be the USN. They haven't really been able to develop a new aircraft program themselves in a long time, and they are getting most of what they want while having the USAF and other foriegn services paying for the bulk of it.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
bbaldwin09
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:51 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
The F-35 is suffering from what pretty much every aircraft suffers from at this point in its development: it's too heavy, it's late and it costs too much.

By it being too heavy, does it have a shorter combat range than whats desired? From what I read about the F-35 it "should" be superior to all the 4th Generation Russian fighters in all warfare aspects.

Is the F-35 seen to compliment the F-22 or supercede it?

I have read some articles about the politics behind the Lightning II and the F-35s failure in some simulations. Can these be trusted?

If our "future" fighters are getting defeated in simulations by the 4th Gen Russian fighters, should we be worried about future russian fighters like the Sukhoi 5th Gen PAK FA?

Thanks
Benjamin
BBaldwin09
 
cloudy
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:35 pm



Quoting BBaldwin09 (Reply 4):
s the F-35 seen to compliment the F-22 or supercede it?

It is supposed to complement it, in the same way the F16 complements the F15. The main concern now is that the early planes may approach the cost of later F22's. The F35's alleged cost advantage may take a long time to realize if it is ever realized at all. The problem, as AIrRyan said, seems to be the same as that plaguing the ISS. The program tries to do too many things for too many different people, all the while growing too big too cancel. These factors all combine to force long delays and high costs.
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:24 am

The F35 is becoming a case of too little for too much $. The fact that the price is approaching that of the F-22, an aicraft that outperforms it by a wide magin in almost every significant measure of performance, is rediculous and very dissapointing. Additionally, there is no evidence that the F-35 will be able to hang with 4th generation Russian fighters. All the technical specifications points to is that in air to air combat it will only maintain F-16C performance levels, that is, 32 year old performance levels.
 
texl1649
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:52 pm

In what performance measure, other than stealth, would the F-35 outperform an F-16E with an AESA?
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:18 pm



Quoting Texl1649 (Reply 7):
In what performance measure, other than stealth, would the F-35 outperform an F-16E with an AESA?

Good point; it wouldn't, and f-35 stealth is only partial.
 
GDB
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:19 pm

It's worth remembering that the USN, USMC and USAF had a great incentive in having the same basic platform for a new aircraft.
They had no choice.
Such is/was the logic of the post Cold War world.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:44 pm



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 8):
Good point; it wouldn't, and f-35 stealth is only partial.

and on exactly what do you base this on?
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 10):
and on exactly what do you base this on?

The F-35 (anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) does not have Full Aspect Stealth like the F-22, (or the F-117, for that matter)
 
Ozair
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:28 am



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 11):
The F-35 (anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) does not have Full Aspect Stealth like the F-22, (or the F-117, for that matter)

All stealth aircraft are optimized to deflect specific frequencies. Whether you wish to call this full or partial stealth I guess depends on what frequencies you’re worried about.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:01 pm

The media in Norway seems to have serious doubt about the F 35 too and how it can fit Norway's needs.

We need a plane that has a fairly long range ( the same as an F16 , preferebly longer ) to cover Norway's wast ocean areas and to possibly go up against watever the Russians are sending at us.

The question is, will the F35 be able to play the role as defender of our airspace and intercept Russian fighters, or will the Russians fly right past us and even around us, showing us the finger....


The media here in Norway argue that the F35 is more of a bomber than a fighter. A multirole aircraft yes, byt 70 % bomber and only 30 % fighter. They feel it don't have the speed, range or manouvering capabilities that Norway needs and that it is more an aircraft designed for missions abroad, like Afganistan.

The F35's competition in the bidding in Norway is the Swedish Gripen fighter.


Norway will only have one aircraft. So we don't have anything in adittion to an eventual F 35....


Personally I would want an american plane. It is what the Norwegian fighterpilots have flown for 70 years. But I have to admit that I'm sceptical to the F 35 and it's capabilities.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:40 am

The next U.S. Presidential administration has basically been punted the decision for the fate of the F-22 line for the USAF.

In addition to what they may do with the USAF F-22 line, perhaps an Obama Admin would be more open to letting others take a look at the F-22 which in turn would cause a lot of F-35 customers pause for a moment? Japan and Israel would certainly like the F-22, and the RAAF might even take some F-22's even though they are committed to the F/A-18F.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:56 am

Well Norway is to decide new fighter on December 19th. So I'm afraid we can't wait for Obama...
 
brendows
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:07 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 13):
We need a plane that has a fairly long range ( the same as an F16 , preferebly longer ) to cover Norway's wast ocean areas and to possibly go up against watever the Russians are sending at us.

Unless they fail to meet the specifications by a wide margin, the F-35 should have a much longer combat radius with internal fuel only compared to the F-16, so range should not be a problem at all.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 13):
The media here in Norway argue that the F35 is more of a bomber than a fighter

Is the average Norwegian journalist in the mass media capable of comparing the two candidates? No way. So where do you think they got this information from?
Remember what Airbus Military did when the Norwegian DoD were to choose between the C-130J and A400M? They hired several PR agencies to spread a lot of false information about the competitor to the media, and the Norwegian media published this information regularly.
 
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cpd
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:41 pm



Quoting BBaldwin09 (Thread starter):
In the Australian media down here, military aviation specialists have been writing off the JSF saying it would be stupid for the RAAF to buy to replace our F-111 and F/A-18C squadrons.

But can someone please tell me why the JSF is getting written off compared to say the Raptor? I dont see the RAAF having any choice considering the US won't sell the F-22?

It's more that the F35 is too this, too that, not enough of this, not enough of that, too late, too difficult, too costly..

And the "pig" has turned out to be legendary.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 14):
and the RAAF might even take some F-22's even though they are committed to the F/A-18F.

We most certainly won't be going for F22's. I extremely doubt that any budget would be allocated to this.

Maybe back when the USA economy hadn't yet imploded, it was still on the cards (even if just as a election stunt), but since USA economy imploded and took everyone else's with it, we've had to spend all our dollars bailing out the finance market.
 
texl1649
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:15 pm

The F-22 is a great air dominance aircraft, but the secrecy of the software/systems/integration will deteriorate over time anyway (there's nothing secret left in the F-15/F-16, for instance). It's well engineered, and nearly as cheap if produced in quantity as the F-35. Australia and Japan should get it. I'm still hacked over the Israeli's Lavi/F-16 espionage treachery, but if it's an R. administration Israel should get it too.

(The other qualification in Norway has got to be what plane would be more exciting screaming down the fjords. Those F-16's are the best videos on youtube, bar none.) The Gripen NG looks to be a pretty darn formidable foe. Is it really "less American?"
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 10:34 pm

The problem with the F-35 is, other than the U.S., how many of the JSF partner nations really need a bomb truck? I don't see any European countries interested in fighting pre-emptive wars. Air defense should be the number one priority, not offensive strike capability. The F-35 is simply not competitive as an air defense fighter.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 19):
The problem with the F-35 is, other than the U.S., how many of the JSF partner nations really need a bomb truck? I don't see any European countries interested in fighting pre-emptive wars. Air defense should be the number one priority, not offensive strike capability. The F-35 is simply not competitive as an air defense fighter.

My thoguhts exactly

Quoting Brendows (Reply 16):
Is the average Norwegian journalist in the mass media capable of comparing the two candidates? No way.

No, but neiter is our politicians. We have ofcourse a group of pilots and people in the " know " who gives advice to our politicians on this issue. However in the end it is our politicians that decide and politics and politicians are politics and politicians... I am not convinced that they will make the correct desicion.
 
jutes85
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:14 am

Soon the Canadian government will have to find a replacement for our 82' Hornets. I think it will come down to the F-35 and the Superbug. The biggest problem I think we have is whether or not two engines are ultimately safer for those long patrols in the Arctic.
nothing
 
PlayLoud
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:44 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 14):
The question is, will the F35 be able to play the role as defender of our airspace and intercept Russian fighters, or will the Russians fly right past us and even around us, showing us the finger....

Considering the Russians won't know where your F-35s are (stealth), they would have a tough time flying around you. In order to fly around something, you first have to know where it is. By the time they saw you, they would either be dead already, or at least have an AIM-120 heading their way.

[Edited 2008-11-01 18:48:31]
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:00 am



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 11):
The F-35 (anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong) does not have Full Aspect Stealth like the F-22, (or the F-117, for that matter)

the question still stands, on what do you base this statement?

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 19):
The problem with the F-35 is, other than the U.S., how many of the JSF partner nations really need a bomb truck?

well, since the second world war the Royal Netherlands Air Force has shot down one enemy aircraft (1999 Kosovo campaign - serbian MiG 29) but in the last 13 years has flown thousands (if not ten thousands) strike missions and is delivering the backbone in CAS every day in Afghanistan.

So yes, in an assymetric conflict (the one we are always in) we do mostly bombing of ground targets, this applies for any NATO member.

Nevertheless the suggestions made in several media are not really fair to the truth anyway.
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:21 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 23):
the question still stands, on what do you base this statement?

ANALYSIS: Lockheed-Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
(Australian Aviation, May/June 2002;

"...It is worth noting that the F-35 is not an all-aspect stealth design like the F-22A and YF-23 which have carefully optimised exhaust geometries and thus excellent aft sector radar cross section."

...and From Defense Industry Daily:

"...The F-35 has also been designed from the outset to feature less stealth than the F-22A, though it will be stealthier than contemporary 4.5 generation European and Russian aircraft."

...and from the Sydney Morning Herald;

"A crucial aspect of the fighter's "stealth capability" - radio frequency signatures - has been downgraded from "very low observable" to "low observable", according to the US Defence Department website."
 
johns624
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:08 pm



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 24):
"...The F-35 has also been designed from the outset to feature less stealth than the F-22A, though it will be stealthier than contemporary 4.5 generation European and Russian aircraft."

So it's till stealthier than any projected opponenet. What's the problem? So it's less capable than the F22...so what, it's NOT an F22. The F16 is less capable than an F15, but it's still a fine plane and I haven't heard too many complaints about it.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:53 pm



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 24):
(Australian Aviation, May/June 2002;



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 24):
..and from the Sydney Morning Herald;

ha! per definition I don't buy anything from an Australian newspaper considering their recent horrible demonstrations of amateur journalism.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 24):
..It is worth noting that the F-35 is not an all-aspect stealth design like the F-22A and YF-23 which have carefully optimised exhaust geometries and thus excellent aft sector radar cross section."

Since it is a newer aircraft it is probably more advanced than the F-22 in many respects.

In my book all aspects stealth means:

main geometry driver being stealth, rather than aerodynamics resulting in a stealth optimized shape includling low observable materials

not all aspect stealth would mean:

a geometry optimized for aerodynamics with some measures to decrease RCS by applying low observable materials in strategic places (like eurofighter)

JSF clearly fits in the first category
 
Oroka
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:26 pm

Perhaps the F-35D kit would fit the RAAFs budget a bit better.

F-35D Lightning II kit


 duck 
 
jutes85
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:55 pm

OMG WTF is that? LOL  laughing   laughing 
nothing
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:03 pm



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 19):
The problem with the F-35 is, other than the U.S., how many of the JSF partner nations really need a bomb truck? I don't see any European countries interested in fighting pre-emptive wars. Air defense should be the number one priority, not offensive strike capability. The F-35 is simply not competitive as an air defense fighter.

If you're on the defensive only, your enemy has an advantage over you. If you can hit him offensively and be effective about it, he's going to have to think twice about hitting you in the first place.

It's interesting that France developed the Rafale with ground attack capability as its primary mission and air-to-air (very good, by the way) as its secondary mission. The Eurofighter Typhoon is a swing role fighter, able to perform both missions well. Apparently there are major nations in Europe that still believe you need something of a bomb truck in your inventory if you expect to win in a combat situation.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
rwessel
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:29 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 27):
Perhaps the F-35D kit would fit the RAAFs budget a bit better.

*I* want a jet with a rumble seat!!!  Smile
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:06 pm



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 29):
If you're on the defensive only, your enemy has an advantage over you. If you can hit him offensively and be effective about it, he's going to have to think twice about hitting you in the first place.

Whatever happened to "the best offense is a good defense"?

I believe that if your military is defensive only, your'e going to have a lot fewer enemies to start with, and if your defense is good enough, any potential enemies are not going to be an effective threat. (defensive only aircraft are not compromised like multirole aircraft are- jack of all trades, master of none)
 
Oroka
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:37 am



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 31):
Whatever happened to "the best offense is a good defense"?

That is one of the stupidest sayings of all time. In sports, you dont score with just defense, and in war you eventually run out of supplies (or public support). Eventually the best defense will fail.
 
johns624
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:34 am



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 31):
defensive only aircraft are not compromised like multirole aircraft are- jack of all trades, master of none)

What? Even if your aircraft are on the defense they'll still have to fight enemy fighters and do ground support for your troops. What is the difference between doing it over your territory or your enemies?
 
Alien
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:07 am



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 31):
Whatever happened to "the best offense is a good defense"?

Do you have any clue about what you write? The proper saying is the best defense is a good offense.

The F-35 being fielded by the US and the nine partner nations will have a RCS bettered only by the F-22. In other words better stealth than the F-117 and the B-2. Although it is being explored, it has yet to be determined if it is feasible or desirable to offer a lessor level of stealth to other customers.

It is ludicrous to cling to the notion that this is a bomb truck only. The initial F-35As will be able to carry 4 AMRAAMs (stations 4, 5, 7, and 8) along with a full load of gas internally. The ability to fly and fight without being encumbered by external tanks or weapons carriage is very much underestimated and if you really need to carry more missiles internally LM is on public record as stating that the F-35 weapons bays can be tailored to carry six rather than four. The USAF just does not see a need for it right now so they do not want to pay for the integration costs.

You get stealth. Clean f-16v or better performance when combat loaded. A multi function LPI AESA radar, DAS, sensor fusion, and an electro optical targeting system second to none. All for an average price of 83 million (according to the GAO) in then year (2040) dollars.

It is flying now, and unlike Grippen NG, two dozen LRIP examples are on order and will be flying soon. This is no longer a "paper aircraft. It is flying and all the big bugs have been worked out.

It's only problem is the USAF, BAE, and the European left.
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 34):
Do you have any clue about what you write? The proper saying is the best defense is a good offense.

that's right, I stand corrected. No need to get your undies in a bundle.

However, I still think a dedicated air defense version of the F-35 would be better; 2D vectored thrust and a weight reduction of around 5000 lbs. and then use the more powerful F-136 engine.
 
johns624
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 35):
I still think a dedicated air defense version of the F-35 would be better

Uhh, isn't that what we have the F22 for???
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:43 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 36):
Uhh, isn't that what we have the F22 for???

I meant for JSF partner countries that are not allowed to buy the F-35
 
Oroka
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:16 am



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 37):
I meant for JSF partner countries that are not allowed to buy the F-35

You mean F-22?
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:05 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 38):
You mean F-22?

yep- sorry.
 footinmouth 
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:31 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 36):
Uhh, isn't that what we have the F22 for???

See this is the problem Your partner countries in the JSF program is not allowed to buy the F22.

It's not the USA who has a problem. You have designed an aircraft for US missions, but you have forgotten the partner countries involved in the program who has payed billions in development. Forgotten the various countries national needs.
 
Max Q
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RE: Whats The Problem With The F-35 JSF?

Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:55 am

I think the -B version is a fine Harrier replacement, and that's where they should have stopped !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.

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