keesje
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:30 pm

The Brazilian government has used a visit by Russian president Dmitri Medvedev to confirm that it signed a contract with Moscow's Rosoboronexport arms agency in late October for 12 Mil Mi-35M attack helicopters.

Worth around $300 million and also including a sizeable spares package, weapons and training services, the deal represents the Brazilian air force's first purchase of a Russian aircraft.

The air force earlier this year shortlisted AgustaWestland's AW129 and the Mi-35M as candidates for its attack helicopter requirement. The Russian design will be delivered equipped with avionics supplied by Israel’s Elbit Systems.


Another clear signal from the Russians. You fool around in my backyard, I'll be visiting yours..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3nrSWzufBg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:57 pm

That was a surprise, never saw that coming. Too bad they are only buying a dozen, I can see attack helicopters being very useful in the type of combat Brazilian forces can see themselves in. Just imagine a Hind flying low over Rocinha, the effect if wouldn't have...

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Another clear signal from the Russians. You fool around in my backyard, I'll be visiting yours..

Brazil was never the U.S.'s background and Lula is not Chavez, I doubt the US is very worried about this. When it all comes down to it, it is just Brazil buying the best helicopter for their needs.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:35 pm

Having seen the Mil24 in an airshow once, it is a pretty impressive machine.

However, the role envisaged in the old USSR was a flying tank, not Nap of the Earth stuff.

IMO 12 is not really enough for that sort of role.

Given the visual impact of this type, is it aimed as much for "shows of force" as outright attack.
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:43 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 1):
Brazil was never the U.S.'s background and Lula is not Chavez, I doubt the US is very worried about this. When it all comes down to it, it is just Brazil buying the best helicopter for their needs.

 checkmark 

First, I don't think we consider Brazil an enemy or even a potential enemy. Second, we give a damn who Brazil buys helicopters from? Third, saying Brazil is in our "back yard" is like saying Portugal is in Russia's back yard.  Wink
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:51 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 1):
Brazil was never the U.S.'s background and Lula is not Chavez, I doubt the US is very worried about this. When it all comes down to it, it is just Brazil buying the best helicopter for their needs.

Most people in the US could care less about the sale. Heck, most are not even aware of it. Not something that's front page news.

I doubt the US government is that concerned either. Like you said Lula is not Chavez.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:34 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:06 pm

I wouldn't be shocked to see the Mexican government buying a few either. How many bodies & beheadings are being discovered each week in Mexican border towns? Their army may find a use for them if the Russians could provide an attractive deal.

[Edited 2008-12-02 14:07:13]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7864
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopt

Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:36 pm

Even though I was hoping for the AW129s, I can see this as a positive thing. Let's try out Russian equipment with a dozen or so helicopters before we get into spending billions upon billions on fighters or anything else.

Btw, Brazil flies UH-60s, and they are fairly new as well, so this isn't like Chavez going for Russian equipment.

[Edited 2008-12-03 08:41:32]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7864
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:06 pm

The Sao Paulo-based newspaper Valor Economico reports that they will be used in the Amazon region, where they would operate in conjunction with Brazil’s Embraer land and ground surveillance jets (R-99A/P-99A), Super Tucanos, S-70 Pave Hawks, and other local assets. If so, the helicopters are very likely to find themselves based in Manaus. Note that the Amazon region borders both Venezuela and Colombia, and is a prime location for trans-national narco-terrorists and drug traffickers.

The Brazilian newspaper “Folha de São Paulo” offers an interesting side note, claiming that the purchase was delayed because the Brazilian Air Force wanted the helicopters to be fitted with Elbit Systems’ avionics, manufactured and/or assembled by Elbit’s Brazilian subsidiary AEL. The Russians argue that this would be uneconomic for such a small batch of aircraft, but the choice would provide important commonality with avionics already present in the FAB’s Super Tucano light attack and surveillance turboprops, F-5BR fighters, and A-1M AMX light attack jets. News reports regarding the contract signing have not revealed whether this issue was addressed in the contract.


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...tack-Helicopter-Competition-05180/

(did a quick search at Folha's website but couldn't find anything on Elbit and this deal)

[Edited 2008-12-03 09:16:11]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:22 am

First, why the hell would the US really care, Keesje? In other news, it's cloudy in Tokyo this morning. **yawn**

Second, $25mil for a big steaming pie of sh*tty helicopter? What a waist of money.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:56 am

Why is it a waste of money
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:24 am



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 9):

That's easy. The Mi-24/35 is a piece of sh*t. And that is said without any flag waving, or nationalistic pride, instead I speak on professional experience. It is simply a giant turkey.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:56 am

So why do you suppose that they bought it?.

What would you have bought?.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:27 am



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 11):

The first question: why the hell do they even need an attack helicopter? It's a dramatic shift away from the current fleet of Cougars, Panthers and a few Black Hawks. So I don't know why they bought them. But then again, this wouldn't be the first time a country made a poor decision!

And I don't know what I would have bought, because I don't know what they're trying to accomplish. If they were looking for a good attack helicopter, they screwed up. If they were looking for an infantry support helicopter, they screwed up. If they were looking for a duel attack and troop carrying helicopter, they screwed up. I don't know what they want, so I don't know another helicopter to suggest.

But I have spoken, time and time again, on this forum about my assessment of the Mi-24/35. People think it's this big bad ass helicopter. Hell, even some American military personnel still retain the fear ingrained in our collective psyche, from the Cold War era. So the truth of the matter remains: all myths and legends aside, the Mi-24/35 blows.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopt

Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:01 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):

The Mi-24 is far from a piece of shit. It might not be the best attack helicopter out there but it isn't crap by any means. It has been sold all over the world and achieved much combat success. You're obsessed with your beloved Blackhawk too much to appreciate anything else. I bet you don't like anything else Russian made either. On the other hand, I'm sure there's a Mi-24 or Mi-17 pilot out there that hates the UH-60 blindly, so I guess it all balances out in the end.

And by the way, I think both the UH-60 and the Mi-24 are great helicopters...
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:49 pm



Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 14):
On the other hand, I'm sure there's a Mi-24 or Mi-17 pilot out there that hates the UH-60 blindly, so I guess it all balances out in the end.

I wouldn't say "blindly", there are several Mi-24s at Ft. Bliss that are maintained in flying condition for adversary training, so I'd say UH60FtRucker speaks from some position of experience.  Wink
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 14):
You're obsessed with your beloved Blackhawk too much to appreciate anything else. I bet you don't like anything else Russian made either.

I knew someone was going to get sore in their crotch over my statement. Such a shame.

Look, I flat out said, my assessment had nothing to do with flag waving, nationalistic pride, or anything of the sort.

And please, don't give me that crap about me being unable to see the value of helicopters beyond my own airframe.  Yeah sure Go back and look at my assessment of other helicopters, such as the NH-90, US101, CH-53, CH-47, etc. It's just pure crap to suggest that I cannot be trusted to make a fair assessment, when one is due.

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 14):
I bet you don't like anything else Russian made either.

Again, total crap. You're simply throwing unfounded insinuations out there, because you got offended over what I said.

Look at my list of top ten helicopters, and I treat Soviet/Russian equipment just as fairly as Western equipment. You're flat out wrong, to suggest that I "have it out" for Russian helicopters.

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 14):
And by the way, I think both the UH-60 and the Mi-24 are great helicopters...

Well congratulations.  champagne 

But the difference is, I am basing my opinion off of professional experience... not on how I saw a picture in a magazine and thought a certain helicopter looked "cool" or "badass."

My assessment of the Mi-24/35 is a matter of public record on these forms. I evaluated numerous operating characteristics, and other hard facts. And let me repeat this for you, since you apparently skipped over it the first time: it had nothing to do with what flag I wear on my shoulder.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:24 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi-24

Assuming that PPVRA is right about the basing and likely role of the Mil 35, it could be a useful addition to the Brazilian Air Force.

IMO, it could combine the ability to strike terrorists/drug smugglers with the ability to land police/soldiers to tackle drug plantations on the ground.

This is not really a role for an all out Attack Helicopter, but perhaps they feel that a MG equipped UH1/UH60 would not be sufficient.

It is also possible that cost/availability could be an issue.

I am not disputing UH60FtRucker's knowledge of the subject, but "it is a piece of sh*t" is not terifically helpful as an assessment.

If you feel professionally that it is the wrong type, perhaps you could give some details.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 04, 2008 11:26 pm



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 15):
I wouldn't say "blindly", there are several Mi-24s at Ft. Bliss that are maintained in flying condition for adversary training, so I'd say UH60FtRucker speaks from some position of experience.

I have seen the Iraqi Hinds we captured, but not only that, I have worked along side the Hind in combat; both Polish and Afghani. And I have had the opportunity to speak to Indian Mi-35 pilots.

This is my entire point. This is more than me reading a book, and declaring myself an expert. I'm not an expert, but I do have upfront knowledge and experience. I would not be so bold, to make such strong statements, if I didn't believe I could back them up.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 17):
I am not disputing UH60FtRucker's knowledge of the subject, but "it is a piece of sh*t" is not terifically helpful as an assessment.

If you feel professionally that it is the wrong type, perhaps you could give some details.

Well, as I've said, I have detailed my assessment in numerous threads on this forum, which all are archived, and public record. Since they are quite detailed, if you permit me, I will simply repost much of what I have already said. Why reinvent the wheel, right?

But before I launch into my opinion of the Mi-24, let me just say that it is exactly that: an opinion. There are undoubtedly individuals who will think that the Mi-24/35 Hind is god's gift to aviation. And I can respect that person, so long as they are able to make an intelligent argument, based on facts. But I have no respect for unfounded arguments, or arguments based on nothing more than, "well it looks cool." With that being said....

The Hind a beast of a helicopter. I can remember the first time I walked up to one, the closer I got, the more intimidating it looked. If looks mattered on the battlefield, then this helicopter would score serious points. In fact, perhaps looks do matter? The psychological fear factor, arguably still remains. The Hind simply looks mean and tough.

However, with that being said, I think it's highly overrated. Remember back in the good ole days of the Cold War... whether it was with Soviet tanks, fighter aircraft, etc. Western analysis had a tendency to over-estimate the abilities of Eastern-bloc equipment. The arrival of the Hind was a major event to Western observers. The problem is, as they had done with other pieces of equipment, the West grossly over-estimated the Hind's abilities.

She's very fast on a straight dash. I was flying along side two Polish Hinds, and we were doing 140kts at 200ft. We were bogged down by all kinds of additional combat equipment, so we were pulling the guts out of our helicopter, just to stay with them. And then they pulled in a bunch of collective, pitched the nose down, and away they went. It was a sight to see. But after they finished showing off how fast they could go, and we settled into our flight route, we started reaching ACPs that required significant course changes... and that's where the Hind's low agility was apparent. Fast on the straight, sluggish on the turns.

The Hind really doesn't have the agility I would expect from an "attack" helicopter. Admittedly, the AH-64 loses a lot when they're loaded down with a full stack of weapons, and a full bag of gas... but the loss of maneuverability is nowhere near as significant, as the Hind.

The power lag was significant, and the xmsn energy loss would be totally unacceptable in western helicopters. The time between collective inputs and engine response is very slow. When you are flying the Hind, you cannot burn into an LZ quickly, and expect to decrease airspeed and altitude descent, by pulling in a lot of sudden torque. You will easy get into settling with power. Additionally, as I mentioned, agility is lacking. When you are entering extreme maneuvers, power management is critical. Transient droop can be significant, and you can easy dissipate rotor energy, and ruin your day.

The Mi-24's IR signature is totally unacceptable and offers very little protection against IR homing threats. Granted, all helicopters suffer from an acute vulnerability to heat-seeking mapads, but the Mi-24 is just horrendous. When I look at Afghani Mi-35s under my FLIR system, it's like looking at the sun. Now I also understand there are recent modifications to correct this deficiency, by adding the Russian version of a HRSS. Indeed, many western helicopters were modified throughout the years with similar systems: the UH-60, AH-64, OH-58. The problem with the Mi-35's system: drag. Plot out their performance chart, comparing one with, and one without, the system. There's a significant difference. And it's because the original engine exhaust was designed so poorly, that any type of fix would incur significant drag penalties.

Now, the Hind has some heavy armor for a helicopter... but at what point do you go overboard? One of my biggest complaints is the cockpit visibility, especially the front seat. Having sat in an Apache, and then a Hind, I was shocked. The armored tub the pilots sit in extends too high and interferes with seeing anything beyond the 4 and 8 o'clock positions. The window structural beams were fat, and created sizable blind spots... and when IR missiles are such a threat to this helicopter, the last thing I'd want is restricted visibility. And the pilots may be quite safe, with their armored tub... but what about critical systems? The main xmsn is not nearly as protected. In fact, I would argue it is quite vulnerable. There are no engines, or additional components flanking the xmsn, to offer as barriers. The engines sit right next to each other, not protected by significant armor, and they're vulnerable to small arms. The Hind is armored, yes, but it's still very vulnerable to the same threats as any other helicopter. So much of that extra weight, needlessly drags performance down.

The cockpit layout was inefficient. Cluttered with hundreds of small buttons, pressure gauges, dials, etc... And again... as a helicopter pilot, you need to know where EVERYTHING around you is, and it needs to be easily accessed. Recent updates include more modern cockpit displays and instruments. But here's my thing: the map is a nice feature, but why not include large digital system displays? What is more important? A moving map, or a large display of your engine and drive train performance? We're talking about a helicopter always flying heavy, and always in need of constant power management. So instead of that crappy little dial gauge... why not give the pilots a large digital display of their torque or TGT? When I'm burning into an LZ, torque is far more important than some shitty ass map.

The flight control system is antiquated. When you're handling such a beast, the last thing you want to do is waste energy manipulating the controls. Modern helicopters, and especially large helicopters, have SAS, FPS, Trim, and Boost to all aid the pilot in reducing the workload. When you're heavy with troops, or lining up on a gun run, you can't be focusing on the controls - that needs to come naturally. And we talked to the pilots, and they all said they eventually got use to the physical workload, but my argument is this: they shouldn't have too, in the first place! As a helicopter pilot, your job can be extremely taxing on the body. So it's best to deplete your energy with your brain, and not your arms and legs.

It makes a crappy troop transport. (I know, that's not it's primary mission). You can't do efficient fast rope or rappelling insertions. You cannot do SPIE or FRIE extractions. You can't use a bambi bucket or hoist. You cannot perform paradrops. And the troop doors are cumbersome and do not allow for quick exit, when such is needed in a hot LZ. I understand the argument: the Hind is not a utility helicopter in the Western sense. Instead it is designed to bring an infantry squad to the battle, and then provide CAS. Got it. But the way it goes about that - with those doors and those stub wings and the cramped cabin... jeez, talk about poor execution.

As a former crew chief - I especially did not like the Mi-24. When you were coming into a tight LZ/PZ you cannot stick your head out and monitor the tail. It is very easy for the pilots to stick that tail rotor into a tree or building. If you're going to design the helicopter to do troop transport and CASEVAC... AND you're not going to give the pilots decent flight characteristics... then you're creating a situation where you're needlessly increasing the risk factor.

Also the avionics and weapons packages were subpar. I was very disappointed to say the least.

....Ok, so please excuse that long winded response. There are other issues I could continue to talk about, but I am trying to keep this somewhat readable! Anyway, I hope you understand that I am not calling the Hind "shitty" just because I don't like Russian equipment, or that I only love my Black Hawk. It just is not true.

I've seen it in action. I've seen it up close. I've talked with the guys who fly it. And I have the fortune to be able to compare it against other helicopters. And it is my opinion that it does not come close to its vaunted reputation.

-UH60

[Edited 2008-12-04 15:43:42]
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:08 am

Well firstly, I would like to thank you for that detailed response.

Some of the points that you make confirm the impression that I have previously received, that it is a flying tank.

I have only seen it at airshows, but it does look intimidating in ways that the UH60 does not. As you say the psychological impact can be relevant.

Another example of this is the impact of very low level overflights on the bad guys in Iraq/Afghanistan that we hear so much about.

Clearly another factor on the survivability of the Mil is the weaponery and training of those on the ground that you are interested in. I understand that it's survivability in Afghanistan declined noticeably with the srrival of Stinger.

My understanding, (your views would be very welcome) is that it was designed to be use for mass attacks over the plains of Central Europe. In this role it would have excelled.

In Brazil, it will be targeting relativly small groups on the ground. Alternatively it will be landing small numbers of troops and providing it's own CAS. In these roles it will be quite effective. Equally if you are useing fast boats or slow planes to smuggle drugs or people then the Mil with it's Cannon and Rockets could make your day quite interesting.

Clearly it is not an AH64/UH60 or OH58, however if the above is a fair discription of the role anticipated by the Brazilians then the Mil might be the best crompromise. Unless the 12 ordered are the forerunner of a much bigger order, they need 1 type which will carry out several roles moderately well. To take one example, it is not a pure Attack Heli like the AH64, but the AH64 is less than ideal for carrying small groups of troops to catch the bad guys. I know that soldiers can be strapped on externally, but that is hardly ideal.

Thank you for giving us all something to think about.
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:56 am

UH60 - I see your points and I appreciate you writing them out.

Yes it has certain limitations you are correct, but I don't think they make it a piece of crap. Survivability is actually not very bad, the Stinger is very dangerous against it but in Chechnya the helicopters took a beating and still managed to get back to base. IR signature is a big problem like you said. Troop transportation is really not that big of a deal(like you said). The biggest issue with the Mi-24(I think) is the weapons and avionics/ergonomics. Pilots get used to the buttons and workload. However this all has been left untouched since the early to mid 1980s! Of course it will be subpar to something modern. A good modernization package with LCD displays and a revised cockpit along with better weapons selection will do the most in reviving the effectiveness the helicopter once had. But even with everything it lacks, you have to admit that it is still successfully used around the world.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:10 am



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 19):
In Brazil, it will be targeting relativly small groups on the ground. Alternatively it will be landing small numbers of troops and providing it's own CAS. In these roles it will be quite effective. Equally if you are useing fast boats or slow planes to smuggle drugs or people then the Mil with it's Cannon and Rockets could make your day quite interesting.

Here's my problem: ~$25million for a Hind? Pissing money down a hole, in my opinion.

I don't have any first hand knowledge about how the Hind will operate in jungle conditions. But I do know that the Hind suffers in the hot temperatures. Remember that whole thing about power management and poor agility? Yeah this is where it comes into play.

If they are looking for what you describe: an armed transport, then I don't see the Hind being a good option. Hell, look at its size! The damn thing is huge. If they're going after drug smugglers in the jungle... are there a lot of large landing areas for that Hind to land in? What good is carrying people, if you cannot effectively insert them onto the battlefield?

If you're right about what they'll be doing, then it's a huge waste of money.

I have a suggestion, buy an armed utility helicopter. I hate to even say this... because I don't want to feed into Sovietjets absurd argument.... but what about the UH-60DAP? Its a killing machine, armed to the teeth. Many DAP pilots have more helifire shots than many Apache pilots! Brazil already flies a few UH-60s. And can also carry more than a Hind.

But do you know what helicopter I would buy for this mission? The NH90.

Load it up with some rockets and guns, and transport infantry/police squads around. It cannot carry as much firepower, as the Hind, but we're talking about gun support, not anti-tank support.

-The NH90 can go into smaller LZs, than the Hind.
-It can perform rope insertion off the rear ramp, unlike the Hind.
-It can perform hoist rescue (which is important in jungle environments), unlike the Hind.
-It can carry internal bulk troop cargo and equipment, unlike the Hind.
-It has better ASE than the Hind.
-It has better range, than the Hind.
-It has a more modern cockpit and electronics suite, than the Hind.
-It has better protected engines and drive train systems, than the Hind.
-It can perform sling load operations, unlike the Hind.
-It can be doubled down for naval operations, unlike the Hind.
-It can be sold for less than $25million!

That's what I would pick. And if that isn't even the mission they're looking to fill, and it's the attack helo role they're after... well the Hind is still wrong!



http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random%202/NH90C.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/UH60PilotIraq/Random%202/NH90A.jpg

And a vid:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bOUcDNhgGkc

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
highlander0
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:29 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:37 am

One of the issues I remember reading about with the Hind (not claiming to be an expert- just a swot) is the fact the exhausts are undernearth the main rotor.

One of the contributing factors to a high shoot down rate (with IR guided SAMs) in the Soviet-Afghan War, if I read correctly.


Highlander
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:53 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 21):
but what about the UH-60DAP?

Holy crap! I just looked up the helo you're talking about and it's a freakin' gun/missile truck!
And look at that sensor kit!
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
bennett123
Posts: 7425
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:59 am

If it was designed for Central Europe that would make sense. Furthermore, Manaus it not just hot, it is humid as well. All of this will reduce it's carrying capability.

Both of the options that you suggest seem to offer more capability at less cost.

Could this be Brazil saying to Europe and the USA "We can get defense equipment elsewhere if we want" or is there some sort of manufacturing deal in the offing, possibly for something more advanced.
 
fvtu134
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:11 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:36 am

Don't read to much into it but an Mi-35 can still be fixed in the field with a hammer and a screwdriver (save for some sensors) while an NH-90, Black hawk or anything else for that matter would need a support package.

Make no mistake I would prefer to be in them too but maybe the Mi-35 is not bad for exactly what they took it... bush flying  Smile

I've done some (civvie) African (high temp, high humidity) flying and also had some stick time on the Mi-8 and 17's which they had there and while ergonomy is far, they weren't all that bad for the dumptruck style of flying that was done there.. You don't even want to know about the service schedules they had for these things but they involved little more then screwdrivers and hammers (and a few drums of oil), yet they kept flying

FVTu-134
who decided that a Horizon should be HORIZONtal???
 
columba
Posts: 5043
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:46 am

Let me say it this way, despite the introduction of the Tiger there was a reason why the German got rid off the Hind very soon.
They kept the Bo105PAH (anti tank version of the Bo 105) instead of the Mil 24. Sure the Mil 24 is not the Mil 35 but the problems are the same: the Hind is trying to be an attack helicopter that carries troops so it is a compromise.
From the German Army point of view:
The CH 53/NH 90 and even the Bell UH 1D were considered much better in transporting troops and cargo than the Hind and the Bo 105PAH is far more agile than the Hind as a combat helicopter.


The German Army as a front army in the Cold War had a huge respect of the Hind, they even used CH 53 to simulate attacks of the Hinds. They were very eager to put their hands of them after the reunfication and tested them very closely but other than the Mig 29 they were not considered of any value for the German Army.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
keesje
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:10 pm

I think what we remeber the Hoind from is videos in which Mujahedin (like Osama Bin Laden) was shooting them down over Afghanistan, often with US provided MANPADS. In reality it was the most feared weapon of the Russians, fast, heavily armed robust and lethal..

The guy in front with the big Gatling gun is hard to match with some side stored machine guns..The 2 x 23mm of the Mi35 means longer range firepower not matched by any other combat heli. And then it can drop / pick up 10 commando's in the same mission. A unique patform IMO, still no western counterpart.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=uAMHp_ZGX9Y
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:18 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):

The first question: why the hell do they even need an attack helicopter?

Not for anti-tank combat, that's for sure! (no matter Chavez's moronic attempts to buy a boatload of tanks, there is no way they are getting them through the Amazon.

As others have said, I suspect this is mostly for anti-drug smuggling operations (or even perhaps to be used in urban combat in some dangerous parts of Rio... things can get really tough in those slums).

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
ell, even some American military personnel still retain the fear ingrained in our collective psyche, from the Cold War era. So the truth of the matter remains: all myths and legends aside, the Mi-24/35 blows.



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 18):
If looks mattered on the battlefield, then this helicopter would score serious points

As corny as this sounds but given the type of missions they will be doing I think the looks actually will help somewhat.

You made a good assessment of the Hind and I understand why you don't like it. I have a couple of questions for you, though (genuine questions, not trying to throw you off or anything).

You mentioned that the Mi-24 is underpowered, especially in hot-and-high scenarios. It is well known that Soviet engine technology was (is?) behind US technology so that does not surprise me. Is it possible, though, that that problem has been fixed with the Mi-35? I know that when it came out the F-14A had notoriously bad engines but when they got around to do the (short-lived) F-14D it was a formidable power package.

My other question is, if they were going for a genuine attack helicopter what would be the best choice to operate in that environment? I don't know if the Apache was ever offered but the idea I have of it (not sure it is correct) is of an over-priced hangar queen, costs as much as a top-of-the-line fighter and requires as much support. Nice technology, but over-kill for most applications. The Cobra is a good helicopter but the basic design has a few decades on it, if you are going to keep yours around for a few decades perhaps not the best investment. What other choices do you have?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 21):
Here's my problem: ~$25million for a Hind? Pissing money down a hole, in my opinion.

To be fair, the prices quoted for military projects are usually hard to compare. We don't know whether that includes support, financing, technology transfer, etc. As far as we know it Russia might have thrown in everything you need to keep those birds in the air for a few thousand hours (a sledgehammer and a can of valvoline Big grin ).

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 25):
Don't read to much into it but an Mi-35 can still be fixed in the field with a hammer and a screwdriver (save for some sensors) while an NH-90, Black hawk or anything else for that matter would need a support package.

A big consideration for this competition, in my view. BTW, does anyone know whether the Tucanos they have parked in the middle of the Amazon are maintenance whores or not?

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
In reality it was the most feared weapon of the Russians, fast, heavily armed robust and lethal..

A lot of the fear it commanded was because of the bravery of the pilots and the tactics they used (the famed carousel of death can be mighty effective, or at least scary).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Marcus
Posts: 1666
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 5:08 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:10 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
(the famed carousel of death can be mighty effective, or at least scary).

What is that?
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:56 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
The 2 x 23mm of the Mi35 means longer range firepower not matched by any other combat heli.

You are dead wrong. The GSH-23's effective range is no greater than the M230 on the Longbow, or any other similar weapon. I don't know what your source is, but it sounds like a lot of your other ones: pure propaganda.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
And then it can drop / pick up 10 commando's in the same mission.

The Hind's normal troop load is 8. You can fit 10 people in there, but not 10 commandos with their full combat load.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
n reality it was the most feared weapon of the Russians, fast, heavily armed robust and lethal..

Most feared weapon? Really? I dunno... what about... oh... their nuclear arsenal? A lot of people lost sleep over those. But Keesje, how many people stayed up at night worrying, "I hope a fleet of Mi-24s doesn't chase me down, tomorrow!"

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
As others have said, I suspect this is mostly for anti-drug smuggling operations (or even perhaps to be used in urban combat in some dangerous parts of Rio... things can get really tough in those slums).

If that's the case, why would you want a giant helicopter!? Would you fly an AugustaWestland AW101 around, to fight insurgents/drug runners? They're very similar in size.

Here's my thing, Brazil is not the first country to fight smugglers and insurgents, in rough terrain. And take a hard look at lessons learned: small, nimble and survivable... are all critical. And I don't think the Mi-24 meets any of those. Before someone jumps on me for that, the Mi-24's crew is well protected, but like I said... the engines and drivetrain are not.

Columbia has a lot of experience fighting this kind of fight, and they're not flying around gunships. They're flying well armed utility helicopters. The Hind was never made to conduct jungle special operations. Like I mentioned, where the hell are you going to land the thing? And if you can't hoist troops out, what good is it?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
You mentioned that the Mi-24 is underpowered, especially in hot-and-high scenarios. It is well known that Soviet engine technology was (is?) behind US technology so that does not surprise me. Is it possible, though, that that problem has been fixed with the Mi-35? I know that when it came out the F-14A had notoriously bad engines but when they got around to do the (short-lived) F-14D it was a formidable power package.

I've worked with Mi-24s and -35s. Both had power issues. The Mi-35 had smaller stub wings, which helped. The large wings on the -24 interfered with the lift generation of the rotor system. But even with the upgrades, the -35 was still cumbersome and power hungry.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
My other question is, if they were going for a genuine attack helicopter what would be the best choice to operate in that environment?

I'm not sure. But I agree, the AH-64 would not be a good fit. I'd say a light/medium attack helicopter would be a good start.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:05 am



Quoting Marcus (Reply 29):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
(the famed carousel of death can be mighty effective, or at least scary).

What is that?

Sorry, my mistake - it is the "circle of death" ( http://www.geocities.com/Sturmvogel_66/Il-2.html ). It was a tactic used by Shturmovik aircraft pilots in WW2 whereupon a number of aircraft would circle over a target and attack in succession. Since the Hinds had difficulty in hovering heavy in the mountains of Afghanistan they adopted the same tactic (but a barrage of rockets helps out).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:14 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
But Keesje, how many people stayed up at night worrying, "I hope a fleet of Mi-24s doesn't chase me down, tomorrow!"

To be fair, I think he was talking about Afghanistan (and a lot of people there did stay up in their caves at night worrying "I hope I don't get chased down by a Mi-24 tomorrow"!).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5180
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopt

Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:19 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 24):
Manaus it not just hot, it is humid as well.

Well, I could think of one honed in hot and humid Vietnam.

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 25):

Make no mistake I would prefer to be in them too but maybe the Mi-35 is not bad for exactly what they took it... bush flying

And what I have in mind are past masters in the art of jungle warfare.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 27):
The guy in front with the big Gatling gun is hard to match with some side stored machine guns..The 2 x 23mm of the Mi35 means longer range firepower not matched by any other combat heli.

Consider these.....all-weather, day/night attack capability with GAU-2B minigun or M197 cannon, TOW, Hellfire and Sidewinder missiles, XM129 40mm grenade launcher or 70mm rocket pods.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 28):
My other question is, if they were going for a genuine attack helicopter what would be the best choice to operate in that environment? I don't know if the Apache was ever offered but the idea I have of it (not sure it is correct) is of an over-priced hangar queen, costs as much as a top-of-the-line fighter and requires as much support. Nice technology, but over-kill for most applications. The Cobra is a good helicopter but the basic design has a few decades on it, if you are going to keep yours around for a few decades perhaps not the best investment.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Air2Air
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Air2Air


Bell's recent problems notwithstanding, it could be argued that the all-new-build AH-1Z Cobra gives none away, technology-wise, to the Mi-24/Mi-35.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-uh-1y-enter-final-test-phase.html

Quote:
"Although the H-1 upgrade began as a remanufacturing effort, Bell is building almost all of the 100 planned UH-1Ys as new aircraft and has received a contract for the engineering to produce new-build AH-1Zs. Birkholz says the expected attrition of AH-1Ws means there will not be enough airframes to remanufacture, so the final 40 of the planned 180 AH-1Zs will built new. With the US Marine Corps increasing in size, this also means it will be able to buy more H-1s as required, Birkholz says."

.....and it's certainly a right-sized, highly-capable attack helo -- hardly an over-priced, overkill hangar queen.

Quoting Columba (Reply 26):
Sure the Mil 24 is not the Mil 35 but the problems are the same: the Hind is trying to be an attack helicopter that carries troops so it is a compromise.
From the German Army point of view: The CH 53/NH 90 and even the Bell UH 1D were considered much better in transporting troops and cargo than the Hind and the Bo 105PAH is far more agile than the Hind as a combat helicopter.

A good argument for buying AH-1Zs and UH-1Ys!

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
But I agree, the AH-64 would not be a good fit. I'd say a light/medium attack helicopter would be a good start.

There may be a lot of beef against Bell, but surely no better endorsement of the Viper!

[Edited 2008-12-05 18:45:05]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
keesje
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Sun Dec 07, 2008 8:09 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 30):
Most feared weapon? Really? I dunno... what about... oh... their nuclear arsenal? A lot of people lost sleep over those. But Keesje, how many people stayed up at night worrying, "I hope a fleet of Mi-24s doesn't chase me down, tomorrow!"

Uhm, Osama and his fellow Mujehadin. I was following / watching the news by then. You probably not.

Thnx UH60FtRucker, I thought the M230 was just the standard moveable support gun of the Apache, just like the nose guns on the UH1, Hind, Tigers etc. Didn't know it had the same range as the Mi-35 GSH guns. As shown in the video in reply 27 (1:48) the aircraft is really pushed nose down when longer bursts are fired.



30mm is a lot of gun for a heli.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:59 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 34):
Uhm, Osama and his fellow Mujehadin. I was following / watching the news by then. You probably not

Well I was and I remember the Stinger being devastating when it made the scene. I remember vividly some of the footage of Hinds and Mi-8s being cut in half.
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:14 pm

Well, the Soviets and Russians always where more successful in exporting helicopters than airplanes, yes, Mexico already got Russian helos, notably the Mil-26.
US cares? Of course they do, they need every cent they can get hold on.
The Mil-35 was partly developed from the cancelled Mil-18 stretched helo version of Mil8/17.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7864
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:50 am



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 35):

Well I was and I remember the Stinger being devastating when it made the scene. I remember vividly some of the footage of Hinds and Mi-8s being cut in half.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65kYDI8MAFY

Poor thing!


Btw, now it's the French Defense Minister in Brazil finalizing some contracts. Probably dealing with Scorpenes and perhaps EC-725s. Sarkozy will be here before Christmas, and we might see contracts signed then.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
keesje
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:07 pm



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 35):
Well I was and I remember the Stinger being devastating when it made the scene. I remember vividly some of the footage of Hinds and Mi-8s being cut in half.

Me too. What wasn't shown was why the hinds were feared & the US provided stingers. Because they were wiping away the mujahedin. You probably also remember the photo's and stories spread about those local libertaion fighters fighting the commie russians. Now we are fighting them, one of their leaders used to be Osama Bin Laden. We hope he didn't save those Stingers for later. Hundreds are unaccounted for..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
MCIGuy
Posts: 1445
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:59 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 38):
Hundreds are unaccounted for..

As well are lots of SA-7 and 14 but that's not the point. The point is that the Hinds and others were so vulnerable to such a cheap system.
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
norcal
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 1:44 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:03 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 38):
We hope he didn't save those Stingers for later. Hundreds are unaccounted for..

Doesn't matter if they did, you kind of need the special batteries to operate the stinger missle system. The batteries have long since expired, probably one of the reasons why you haven't heard of too many American helicopters being downed by stingers in Afghanistan.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:48 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 38):
What wasn't shown was why the hinds were feared & the US provided stingers. Because they were wiping away the mujahedin.

In the begining they would run which of course got the attention of the Hind crews. They learned rather quickly not to move when the Hinds showed up. Then of course the Stingers showed up which evened the odds. They also developed tactics using RPG's. So yes, in the begining they feared the Hind, but in the end it became something else for them to shot at.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 38):
We hope he didn't save those Stingers for later. Hundreds are unaccounted for..

If they had any functioning Stingers they would have used them by now. However as has been already pointed out the shelf life of the batteries have since expired. And that shelf life was based on how they would be handled by a modern Army.

[Edited 2008-12-10 01:10:15]
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
keesje
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:50 am



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 37):
Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 35):

Well I was and I remember the Stinger being devastating when it made the scene. I remember vividly some of the footage of Hinds and Mi-8s being cut in half.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65kYDI8MAFY

Poor thing!

Small detail : the video is a Sikorsky S-55 from a Holywood feel good movie..

This one includes shooting down a hind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaSln4PU4Wk

Did you know your tax money is used deliver Hinds to Afghanistan as we speak?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
columba
Posts: 5043
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:08 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 38):
Me too. What wasn't shown was why the hinds were feared & the US provided stingers. Because they were wiping away the mujahedin. You probably also remember the photo's and stories spread about those local libertaion fighters fighting the commie russians

Just see the movie The War of Charlie Wilson with Tom Hanks.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
keesje
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:40 am



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 41):
They also developed tactics using RPG's. So yes, in the begining they feared the Hind, but in the end it became something else for them to shot at.

In Holywood movies maybe.

The CIA then began supplying the Afghan rebels with Stinger shoulder-launched, heat-seeking SAMs,[7] and the situation got considerably worse for Hind crews. The heat-seeking missiles sought out the Mi-24's exhaust, which came directly from under the main rotor, causing the aircraft to disintegrate when hit. This was later remedied by countermeasure flares and a missile warning systems installed in all Soviet Mi-4, Mi-8, and Mi-24 helicopters, giving pilots a chance to evade the missile or crash-land. Heat dissipaters were also fitted to exhausts to decrease the Hind's heat signature. These alleviated the Stinger threat but did not eliminate it.

Hinds were also used to shield jet transports flying in and out of Kabul from Stingers. The gunships carried flares to blind the heat-seeking missiles, and if worse came to worst, were under orders to try to take the hit from the missile themselves. The crews called themselves "Mandatory Matrosovs", after a Soviet hero of the Second World War who threw himself across a German machine gun to let his comrades break through.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-...war_in_Afghanistan_.281979-1989.29

In wars the home teams are always selectively informed. Partly because they don't even want to hear both sides of the story. Afghanistan is no execption.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:26 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 44):
In Holywood movies maybe.

The only Hollywood movie I've seen where this occured was Blackhawk Down. Ironically that's what happened in Somalia, Blackhawk's either shot down or seriously damaged by RPG fire. In Afghanistan more than a few US Helicopters have either been damaged of shot down by RPG's. During Operation Anaconda two CH-47's were hit by RPG's. One of which had to make a crash landing. In 2005 sixteen Night Stalker and Navy SEAL's were killed when their CH-47 was shot down by an RPG fired into the back end of the helicopter. In both Iraq and Afghanistan Apache's have been hit by RPG fire.

Now where do you think there learned that little trick from?

Quoting Keesje (Reply 44):
In wars the home teams are always selectively informed. Partly because they don't even want to hear both sides of the story. Afghanistan is no execption.

Did I not say in one of my posts that the mujahdien feared the Hind in the early part of the war? Seems like you are the one who is selectively informed.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
keesje
Posts: 8594
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:00 pm



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 44):
Did I not say in one of my posts that the mujahdien feared the Hind in the early part of the war?

Seems like you suggest thestingers took the Hinds out of business & the Mujehadin just used them to shoot at. Factually incoorect. It appears the russian took the usual counteractions & continued to operate.

It seems the Israellies like the concept of the Hind. I can understand from their perspective; range / speed firepower for special operations, now they are building their own..



http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...armed-black-hawk-demonstrator.html
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
highlander0
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:29 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:17 pm

Isn't that a modernised DAP?
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:05 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 41):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaSln4PU4Wk

According to Keesje's link the Hind has to execute a rolling takeoff when fully loaded to get airborne and in steep turns the main rotor has a tendency to intersect with the tail rotor?

No thanks!
 
Acheron
Posts: 1826
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:14 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 27):
no matter Chavez's moronic attempts to buy a boatload of tanks, there is no way they are getting them through the Amazon.

Regarless of whatever you think of Chavez, those tanks are actually needed, whether you like it or not.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Brazil Signs Air Force Deal For Mi-35 Helicopters

Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:40 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 45):
It seems the Israellies like the concept of the Hind. I can understand from their perspective; range / speed firepower for special operations, now they are building their own..

The fact that you would even relate the two on the same field, shows how little you know. Amateur, at best.

The Israeli modifications to the UH-60 are, in absolutely no way, an attempt to match the Mi-24 Hind. You've said some pretty ridiculous things in the past, but god damn, this quote is going into the archives as one of your best.  rotfl 

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ssteve and 6 guests