Poadrim
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F-Series Fighter Planes?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:59 pm

Hi,

I have done a quick Goggle search and didn't come up with any good answer.
My question is why are there not following order? i.ex:

F-10
F-11
F-12
F-13
F-14 Tomcat
F-15 Eagle
F-16 Viper
F-17
F-18 Hornet
F-19
F-20
F-21
F-22 Raptor

Why jump over F-10/11/12/12/17/19/20/21
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TGIF
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:38 pm

Wikipedia might help (though handle with care...  Smile) when Google doesn't:

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but here's a start:
F-10
F-11
YF-12 - would have been named F-12 if introduced?
YF-17 - Lost to F-16
F-19 has never been used AFAIK
F-20 - Only 5 built.

Does not cover your whole list but it's perhaps a start..
 
HaveBlue
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:39 pm

They don't get skipped, generally speaking. The F-10 was a later version of the F-3D Skynight. The F-11 was the Grumman F-11F-1 Tiger. Then there's the Lockheed YF-12, an interceptor version of the A-12 Blackbird. I don't know what the F-13 was. The F-17 slot was given to the Northrop YF-17, a competitor to the F-16 for the light fighter role in the air force and the precurssor to the McDonnell Douglas F-18 Hornet. The F-19 was widely believed to have been the stealth fighter (F-117) back in the day, and the Air Force may have just let that misconception stay. The F-20 was the Northrop F-20 Tigershark... a very advanced and capable version of the F-5 perhaps for the Air Force but also for export. Then there is the F-21 Kfir, an Isreali Aircraft Industries version of the Mirage, which the Navy and Marines used for dissimiliar air to air combat training (think Top Gun) for a few years.

Some gaps are just planes that never made it into production.
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Poadrim
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:29 pm

Alright, thanks alot mates!
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474218
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 8:54 pm

Prior to 1962 the Navy had a system of identifying their aircraft and the Air Force had a different system. In October 1962 the Defense Department revised the numbing system for all military fighters. The last fighter aircraft using the Air Force system was the F-111. Several then current Navy aircraft were re-identenfied using the new system. Here are the F series aircraft from F-1 through F-11. The Lockheed YF-12A was the first aircraft built using the combined numbering system.

North American F-1E previously known as FJ-4 Fury
McDonnell F-II Airways (Italy)">2D previously known as F2H-4 Banshee
McDonnell F-3C previously known as F3H-2N Demon
McDonnell F-4E previously known as F-110 Phantom II
Northrop F-5A previously known as N156F Freedom Fighter
Douglas F-6A previously known as F4D-1 Skyray
Convair YF-7A previously known as YF2Y-1 Sea Dart
Chance Vought F-8E previously known as F8U-2NE Crusader
Grumman F-9J previously known as F9F-8 Cougar
Douglas .F-10B previously known as F3D-2 Skyknight
Grumman F-11A previously known as F11F-1 Tiger
 
474218
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:19 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 4):
McDonnell F-II Airways (Italy)">2D previously known as F2H-4 Banshee

Don't know what happen there, should read:

McDonnell F-2D previously known as F2H-4 Banshee
 
ebj1248650
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:22 am

What became the F-4C was originally known as the F-110A. F-4E never carried any kind of F-110 designation.
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Areopagus
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:45 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 4):
McDonnell F-4E previously known as F-110 Phantom II

The F-110A was called Spectre, but when redesignated F-4C, was also redesignated Phantom II to match the Navy's name.
 
hunterson
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 2:32 am

Based on simple memory, and also to keep things as simple as possible, I believe that this is how things went at the time ( ie. after 1962 ) :

F-1 Fury
F-2 Banshee
F-3 Demon
F-4 Phantom
F-5 Freedom Fighter ( and F-5E Tiger 2)
F-6 Skyray
F-7 Cutlass
F-8 Crusader
F-9 Panther/ Cougar
F-10 Skyknight
F-11 Tiger
F-12 ( YF-12 prototype, never went into service )
F-13 ( never used for obvious reasons )
F-14 Tomcat
F-15 Eagle ( and F-15E Strike Eagle )
F-16 Fighting Falcon
F-17 ( YF-17 prototype which lost to the YF-16 )
F-18 Hornet ( AF-18 and AF-18E Super Hornet )
F-19 ( reported as some "stealth" prototype which never entered production, or did it ? )
F-20 Tigershark ( upgraded F-5E Tiger which never entered service )
F-21 Kfir ( Israeli - modified Mirage-3 used for a while by aggressor squadrons )
F-22 Raptor
F-23 ( prototype Yf-23 which lost to YF-22 )
F-35 Lightning 2 ( aka JSF )


I hope I did not skip anything, but if I did, please let me know.
 
474218
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:12 am



Quoting Hunterson (Reply 8):
I hope I did not skip anything, but if I did, please let me know.

Prefect, except for the F-7 was the Convair YF2Y-1 Sea Dart
 
hunterson
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:28 am

Appreciate that, but what about the ( F-7 ) Cutlass ?
 
gsosbee
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:47 am



Quoting Hunterson (Reply 8):
F-12 ( YF-12 prototype, never went into service )

Was this the A-12 or the F-12?

Also, somewhere in the numbering (coud be for the "R" series) were several black projects.
 
474218
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:53 am



Quoting Hunterson (Reply 10):
Appreciate that, but what about the ( F-7 ) Cutlass ?

Didn't make the list, kept its Navy F7U-3 designation. The Cutlass was removed from service in 1957.

The interesting aircraft they included in the re-number was the F-7 (YF2Y-1 Sea Dart) only four (4) were ever built and the program was canceled in 1956?
 
hunterson
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:09 am

Many thanks to ( 474218 ) for the interesting info. I certainly never thought before that the F-7 designation belonged to the Sea Dart which I always believed had kept its original Navy designation YF2Y, with the F7U Cutlass getting the F-7 mark instead. well, at least that is now corrected.


In reply to ( Gsosbee ), yes indeed it was A-12, which was the Lockheed designation of the original ( Skunk Works ) programme. It led first to the prototype YF-12 which was supposed to be developed into a high-performance all-weather long-range interceptor in conjunction with the XB-70 Valkyrie strategic bomber. The two programmes were cancelled, however, and the only remaining bit was that which eventually led to the SR-71 Blackbird. Essentially the same aircraft as the original A-12 / YF-12, but optimized as a strategic recce unarmed aircraft, which gave glorious service with the USAF for nearly 3 decades.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:33 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 12):
The interesting aircraft they included in the re-number was the F-7 (YF2Y-1 Sea Dart) only four (4) were ever built and the program was canceled in 1956?

Correct, it got F-7 'for some inexplicable reason' according to a book by Robert F. Dorr.

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steman
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:55 pm

I remember having read somewhere that some of the Soviet types introduced for dissimilar combat training got a F- designation.
At least some examples of the MiG-15, MiG-17, MiG-19 and MiG-21 saw limited use.
This could explain some of the "missing links" (F-19? F-24 and so on)

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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:31 pm



Quoting Steman (Reply 15):
At least some examples of the MiG-15, MiG-17, MiG-19 and MiG-21 saw limited use.
This could explain some of the "missing links" (F-19? F-24 and so on)

These aircraft actually got F- designationa in the 1-teens range. Grey cells seem t remember MiG-21 as F-113 and MiG-23 as F-115....
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:23 pm



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 16):
These aircraft actually got F- designationa in the 1-teens range. Grey cells seem t remember MiG-21 as F-113 and MiG-23 as F-115....

True,
I think you´re right.
I remember that they got a F designation and now that you mention it, I think I remember they were in the F-1xx range

Ciao

Stefano
 
HaveBlue
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 11):
Was this the A-12 or the F-12?



Quoting Hunterson (Reply 13):
In reply to ( Gsosbee ), yes indeed it was A-12, which was the Lockheed designation of the original ( Skunk Works ) programme. It led first to the prototype YF-12 which was supposed to be developed into a high-performance all-weather long-range interceptor in conjunction with the XB-70 Valkyrie strategic bomber. The two programmes were cancelled, however, and the only remaining bit was that which eventually led to the SR-71 Blackbird. Essentially the same aircraft as the original A-12 / YF-12, but optimized as a strategic recce unarmed aircraft, which gave glorious service with the USAF for nearly 3 decades.

F-12 was a totally seperate beast from the A-12. The A-12 was a single seat spy plane used by the CIA operationally from around 1965-1968. The SR-71 was a 2 seat spy plane, longer and heavier and slower, used by the Air Force. The Air Force had a fly off between the A-12 and SR-71 and went with the SR, which also made the CIA's A-12's redundant and so that program did end that year. The YF-12 was a 2 seat interceptor version of the A-12 of which 3 were built but that program was cancelled as well. It had cut chines (they started below the cockpit instead of at the tip of the nose) so as to facilitate the radar nose and also had a very large ventral fin in between the engines to make up for the reduced stability, and which could fold up on the ground for clearance. While we are at it there was also the M-12, a 2 seat modified A-12 which carried a Mach 6 D-21 drone piggyback style.  Wink
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hunterson
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:58 pm

( Quoting Gsosbee )


Again, most of the above info is basically correct . However, I do not think anyone would describe the A-12 / YF-12 / SR-71 as "totally different".
They were essentially the same family , sharing the same basic design and shape, as well as very similar dimensions.
Certainly, each member of that family was optimized for a different mission, hence the slightly varying specific details as far as performance and equipment was concerned. the A-12 was indeed marginally faster than the SR-71 and YF-12 ( Mach 3.35 compared to Mach 3.21),and also could fly slightly higher ( 90000ft compared to 85000ft ). The main difference was of course in mission profile, where the A-12 was supposed to fly over the target, while the SR-71 was a "stand-off" Recce aircraft with side-looking radar and photo equipment. Also correct is the fact that the A-12 was a single-seater, while the YF-12 and SR-71 were both 2-seaters.
On the whole, though, the 3 aircraft were very much part of the same design project and shared the same name, Blackbird.
 
474218
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:11 pm



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 18):
The Air Force had a fly off between the A-12 and SR-71 and went with the SR, which also made the CIA's A-12's redundant and so that program did end that year.

Could you provide more information on this "fly off between the A-12 and the SR-71" such as where and when did it took place, etc?
 
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:25 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 20):
Could you provide more information on this "fly off between the A-12 and the SR-71" such as where and when did it took place, etc?

I recently found a website showing declassified CIA documents while Googling something else. I spent several hours delving thru some interesting stuff on the Blackbirds and their programs... all declassified. However the website doesn't allow you to copy n paste, nor when I found pages pertaining to your question would the url in the address bar for that page be helpful... it gives a message directing you with a link to the homepage.

So, this is the best I can do.

http://www.foia.cia.gov/search.asp

Type in COMPARISON OF SR-71 TO A-12 AIRCRAFT and then click on the result of the same name

Type in OXCART/SR-71 INFORMATION FOR EXCOM MEETING and click on result of same name.

Type in HISTORY OF THE OXCART PROGRAM and click the result of the same name. Amazing reading! This is a history of the A-12 Program by Kelly Johnson himself!!

and on the NEXT PAGE click on PHASEOUT.

These show there was a commission to compare the 2 and decide if they should coexist or make the other unnecassary, but somewhere along the line last week I had read the word "fly off" and perhaps by Kelly Johnson... and I know for sure because that wording surprised me even though I was aware it wasn't a 'fly off' as in our F-14/F-15 demo flights for the Shah of Iran back in the day, but an on-paper fly off of capabilities and survivabilities of plane vs plane.

[Edited 2008-12-10 16:26:54]
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474218
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:37 am



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 21):

Thanks for the references, while I had seen a couple of those reports before (reproductions, not the originals) it was great to read them in their original form. I even saw something mentioned in one of those documents that when I saw it on a blueprint about 40 years ago I was told to forget I ever saw it. But I suspect you will find the "fly off" was done on paper. Both programs (Oxcart and the SR-71) were enormously expensive and there was no way both were going to get funded once both were operational. Additionally keeping the Oxcart program as a black program was getting harder, even with the SR-71's being used as a cover.
 
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:13 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 4):
McDonnell F-4E previously known as F-110 Phantom II

While there was the Vought F-4U Corsair.....

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Quoting 474218 (Reply 4):
Convair YF-7A previously known as YF2Y-1 Sea Dart

..... there also were the LTV EA-7L, TA-7C and A-7E Corsair II.....

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Did these lead to the F-8 Crusader?

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[Edited 2008-12-10 19:25:38]
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Spacepope
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:16 am

Actually it's the other way around, the F-8 led to the A-7.

The Navy system was too confusing. The F-4U was also the FG-1 when manufactured by Goodyear...

And then there was the difference between the F4F, F4U, F4H (later F-110/F4), and F-4D Skyray...
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474218
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:18 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 23):
there also were the LTV EA-7L, TA-7C and A-7E Corsair II.....

Did these lead to the F-8 Crusader?

The other way around the F-8 [F8U-2] came before the A-7.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 23):
While there was the Vought F-4U Corsair.....

That was the Navy numbering system not the USAF or combined Department of Defense numbering system. The Navy system identified the manufacture.

The F4U Corsair:
F = Fighter
4 = Fourth fighter from the manufacture
U = Chance Vought

F4G Wildcat:
F = Fighter
4 = Fourth fighter from manufacture
G = Grumman

McDonnell F4H:
F = Fighter
4 = Fourth fighter from manufacture
H = McDonnell

FJ-4 Fury
F = Fighter
J = North American
4 = Fourth fighter from manufacture
 
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ptrjong
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:16 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 25):

The F4U, F4G and F4H were the fourth naval fighters from the respective manufacturers (the McDonnell series: FH Phantom, F2H Banshee, F3H Demon, F4H Phantom II).

The FJ-4 was the fourth version of the FJ, the first Navy fighter by North American.

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Spacepope
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 25):
F4G Wildcat:
F = Fighter
4 = Fourth fighter from manufacture
G = Grumman

Actually, G is Goodyear. F is Grumman, so the Wildcat should be F4F....

Quoting 474218 (Reply 25):
FJ-4 Fury
F = Fighter
J = North American
4 = Fourth fighter from manufacture

Incorrect as well. If it were NA's 4th fighter it would be F4J. FJ= F1J, the Navy just didn't use it on first models by companies. It should read

FJ-4 Fury
F=Fighter
J = NA
4 = 4th subtype of that fighter (Kinda like the D in P-47D)
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474218
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:20 pm



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 26):
The FJ-4 was the fourth version of the FJ, the first Navy fighter by North American.



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 27):
Incorrect as well. If it were NA's 4th fighter it would be F4J. FJ= F1J, the Navy just didn't use it on first models by companies. It should read

There were four (4) FJ different fighters they were not sub-types of the same aircraft:
FJ-1

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FJ-2

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FJ-3

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FJ-4

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Quoting Spacepope (Reply 27):
Actually, G is Goodyear. F is Grumman, so the Wildcat should be F4F....

You are correct, Wildcats were built by Grumman, Goodyear and General Motors and were F4F, F4G and F4M's respectively.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 28):
There were four (4) FJ different fighters they were not sub-types of the same aircraft:

That might be true, but you were in the process of explaining the old Navy designation system and the FJ designation says they are subtypes of the same aircraft.

I'm sure that you are at least correct that the FJ-2 is a different animal than the straight-winged aircraft, and might have been designated F2J, but the fact is that it wasn't.

The same happens with USAF designations, by the way : the F-84F is very different than the straight-winged F-84, and was initially designated F-96, but this was changed back to let Washington believe it was easy to put in production.

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RE: F-Series Fighter Planes?

Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:29 am



Quoting Hunterson (Reply 8):
F-13 ( never used for obvious reasons )

Or never used because that number would have been assigned to the Tomcat very shortly after the ill fated Apollo 13 mission.
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