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alberchico
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F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 3:50 pm

Even thought the basic design is 50 years old now the plane still looks sexy with all the sleek looks of a modern fighter. The fact that countries like Brazil and Chile spent millions modernizing their existing fleet after so many years of service speaks for itself. For many countries that cannot afford modern combat aircraft and want somethiing more than just an armed trainer the f-5 fits the bill perfectly:

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/militaryaviation1946-2006cutaways/images/14173/northrop-f-5a-freedom-fighter-cutaway.jpg





http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Honduran_F5E.jpg

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texl1649
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:01 pm

And the Iranians are still trying to figure out how to build and improve on it!
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:32 pm



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
Even thought the basic design is 50 years old now the plane still looks sexy with all the sleek looks of a modern fighter

Too bad the F-20 never caught on... with that big engine in the back, it looks even better and sexier IMHO...  Smile
No plane, no gain.
 
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alberchico
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:45 pm

Just also wanted to add that China is now offering a F-5 lookalike for export that is basically a low cost multirole fighter for developing nations. It claims to offer near performance in the range of thr F16 Falcon but for only a fraction of a price. Personally I think that claim if BS but that's just my opinion. It is called the FC-1 or the JF-17 which is what Pakistan is calling it.....


http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6678/greyjf17tg8.jpg








http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6915/fc1od3.jpg



short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
ebj1248650
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:14 pm

F-16 technology is at least 30 years old. Doesn't seem unusual that China could produce an airplane now that might equal the early F-16s at least. It's not hard to loose track of time and sometimes we have to sit back and look back. The F-15 is real old technology, if you're talking about the early A and B models. Same holds true for the F-16A and B. Truth be known, even the F-15E is old technology when compared to the Rafale, F-22A and current Typhoon FGR4.
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alberchico
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:44 pm



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 4):
F-16 technology is at least 30 years old. Doesn't seem unusual that China could produce an airplane now that might equal the early F-16s at least. It's not hard to loose track of time and sometimes we have to sit back and look back.

While China might get the aerodynamics right and design a similar looking aircraft to the F-16 what counts is its avionics, radar and weapon systems. In all these areas the Chine are behind the West they are even behind Russia. In an air forces monthly magazine that has an article on athe Pakistani air force. they said the the Chinese J-10 has the equivalent of 1990's avianics and that is the reason why Pakistan is so eager to integrate the Jf-17 and the J-10 with western systems.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
GDB
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:53 pm

It was a much better 'entry level' supersonic combat aircraft than the Mig-21 ever was.

But, while it was politics that got the F-5 built (so the US could supply allies or potential allies with affordable aircraft), it was up against the massive 'Mig Diplomacy' from the USSR, who had a bit of a head start.
Still, a highly successful design.

(And remember how often USAF/USN 'Agressor' crewed F-5's embarrassed the highly expensive and brand new teen series 'Super Fighters' in realistic ACM exercises too. It started a real debate on whether the US/NATO should mass produce aircraft like the F-5 and drop the 'quality not quantity' idea. In the end though, with the F-16, they found a happy medium. I would suggest that this ACM experience was also a prime mover in the design and building of the F-16. Ironically, it was the F-16 that was to effectively kill the F-20 sales wise).
 
TheSonntag
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 9:08 pm



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 5):
In all these areas the Chine are behind the West they are even behind Russia.

One must be careful with that statement. While true to some extend, don't forget that everyone produces microelectronics in China. While it is something different to build a laptop and to develop a highly sophisticated missile radar, a lot of technology and know-how gets transferred by producing alone...

Think of Huawei electronics, they produce a lot of useful staff already.

No doubt they are still behind in some areas, but they surely close the gap fast.
 
Max Q
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:15 pm

Great looking machine, any one know the most significant differences between the F5 and the T38 ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
zanl188
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:20 pm



Quoting Alberchico (Thread starter):
the f-5 fits the bill perfectly

It's hard to argue with a classic design that offers low cost, hi performance, and good looks all in one package....  Smile

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 4):
Truth be known, even the F-15E is old technology when compared to the Rafale, F-22A and current Typhoon FGR4.

Truth be known... the F-22 is no spring chicken either... first flight of the 2 flyoff airplanes was in 1988 or '89...
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474218
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:33 pm



Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
Think of Huawei electronics, they produce a lot of useful staff already.

While Huawei Electronics may produce a lot of "useful stuff" how much is of their own design?
 
Venus6971
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:50 pm



Quoting Max Q (Reply 8):
Great looking machine, any one know the most significant differences between the F5 and the T38 ?

F-5 is more or less a T-38 on steroids, the F-5 has a longer nose to incorporate a radar and twin 20mm's, the F-5 has a antiskid system at on some models not all, the F-5 has a bigger wing with strakes that go along to the engine intake, the intake is also different, the both need a external air start but the F-5 can cross or tiger start its other engine plus with a extendable more heavy nose gear to bring up the nose to lessen fod injestion both have a J-85 GE engine but the F-5 has a few extra stages of afterburner. The F-5 has hardpoints for external stores such as drop tanks and weapons plus missile rails on the wing tips. The T-38 has a centerline hardpoint for a travel pod and back in the late 70's they put a gattling cannon on the bottom or a SUU with practice bomblets.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
SCAT15F
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Thu Dec 18, 2008 12:24 am

What's also cool about the F-5 is its engines. The J-85 has the highest thrust to weight ratio of any afterburning turbojet, and compares favorably with the F100-PW-200/220. Too bad they didn't uprate it's thrust over the last 30 years.
 
Devilfish
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Thu Dec 18, 2008 3:37 am



Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 2):
Too bad the F-20 never caught on... with that big engine in the back, it looks even better and sexier IMHO... Smile

It's definitely sexier!  yes  .....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-20_Agressor.jpg


Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 9):
It's hard to argue with a classic design that offers low cost, hi performance, and good looks all in one package....

 bigthumbsup 

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 3):
Just also wanted to add that China is now offering a F-5 lookalike for export that is basically a low cost multirole fighter for developing nations. It claims to offer near performance in the range of thr F16 Falcon but for only a fraction of a price.

It's essentially the very same rationale for the Tigershark - which excelled the early J79 Falcons in some respects.....

http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item16927.html

In hindsight, both the F-20 and JF-17 roughly share the same generation, and would have made a good study in contrast between Eastern and Western technology.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F-20_cockpit_mock-up.jpg

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 12):
The J-85 has the highest thrust to weight ratio of any afterburning turbojet, and compares favorably with the F100-PW-200/220. Too bad they didn't uprate it's thrust over the last 30 years.

We could say they did indirectly, via the Tigershark's F-404 engine -- which dramatically increased T/W ratio over the F-5.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GE_F404_engine.jpg
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Max Q
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:53 pm

Thanks for the info Venus 6971, do you have any other info on gross weight / performance differences etc between the T38 and F5 ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Venus6971
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:21 pm



Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):

Specifications (F-5E Tiger II)
Data from Quest for Performance[16]

General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 47 ft 4¾ in (14.45 m)
Wingspan: 26 ft 8 in (8.13 m)
Height: 13 ft 4½ in (4.08 m)
Wing area: 186 ft² (17.28 m²)
Airfoil: NACA 65A004.8 root, NACA 64A004.8 tip
Empty weight: 9,558 lb (4,349 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 24,664 lb (11,187 kg)
Powerplant: 2× General Electric J85-GE-21B turbojet
Dry thrust: 3,500 lbf (15.5 kN) each
Thrust with afterburner: 5,000 lbf (22.2 kN) each
*Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0200
Drag area: 3.4 ft² (0.32 m²)
Aspect ratio: 3.86
Internal fuel: 677 US gal (2,563 L)
External fuel: 275 US gal (1,040 L) per tank in up to 3 tanks
Performance

Maximum speed: 917 kn (1,060 mph, 1,700 km/h, mach 1.6)
Range: 760 nmi (870 mi, 1,405 km)
Ferry range: 2,010 nmi (2,310 mi, 3,720 km)
Service ceiling 51,800 ft (15,800 m)
Rate of climb: 34,400 ft/min (175 m/s)
Lift-to-drag ratio: 10.0
Armament


Guns: 2× 20 mm (0.787 in) Pontiac M39A2 cannons in the nose, 280 rounds/gun
Hardpoints: 7 total: 2× wing-tip AAM launch rails, 4× under-wing & 1× under-fuselage pylon stations holding up to 7,000 lb (3,200 kg) of payload
Rockets:

2× LAU-61/LAU-68 rocket pods (each with 19× /7× Hydra 70 mm rockets, respectively); or
2× LAU-5003 rocket pods (each with 19× CRV7 70 mm rockets); or
2× LAU-10 rocket pods (each with 4× Zuni 127 mm rockets); or
2× Matra rocket pods (each with 18× SNEB 68 mm rockets)
Missiles:

Air-to-air missile:
4× AIM-9 Sidewinders or
4× AIM-120 AMRAAMs
Air-to-surface missile:
2× AGM-65 Mavericks
Bombs: A variety of air-to-ground ordnance such as the Mark 80 series of unguided iron bombs (including 3 kg and 14 kg practice bombs), CBU-24/49/52/58 cluster bomb munitions, napalm bomb canisters and M129 Leaflet bomb
Others: up to 3× 150/275 US gallon Sargent Fletcher drop tanks for ferry flight or extended range/loitering time.
Avionics


AN/APQ-153 radar on early batch of F-5E
AN/APQ-159 radar on later production F-5E


Specifications (T-38A)
General characteristics

Crew: 2: student and instructor
Length: 46 ft 4.5 in (14.14 m)
Wingspan: 25 ft 3 in (7.7 m)
Height: 12 ft 10.5 in (3.92 m)
Wing area: 170 ft² (16 m²)
Empty weight: 7,200 lb (3,270 kg)
Loaded weight: 11,820 lb (5,360 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 12,500 lb (5,670 kg)
Powerplant: 2× General Electric J85-5A (J85-5R after PMP modification) afterburning turbojets
Dry thrust: 2,050 lb (9.1 kN) each
Thrust with afterburner: 3,850 lbf (17.1 kN) each
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.3 (858 mph, 1,381 km/h)
Range: 1,140 mi (1,835 km)
Service ceiling 50,000 ft (15,240 m)
Rate of climb: 33,600 ft/min (170.7 m/s)
Wing loading: 70 lb/ft² (340 kg/m²)
Thrust/weight: 0.65
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
steman
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:29 pm

I think that there are more differences between F-5 A/B and F-5 E/F than between T-38 and F-5 A/B
In particular T-38 and F-5B seem to be very similar in terms of performance and overall frame.
Does anybody know which are the main difference between a Talon T-38 and a two seater F-5B?
Weapon pylons and relevant wiring? Empty and Max weight maybe?

Ciao

Stefano
 
Devilfish
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:53 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 6):
(And remember how often USAF/USN 'Agressor' crewed F-5's embarrassed the highly expensive and brand new teen series 'Super Fighters' in realistic ACM exercises too.

They might embarass them a little more after fitment of new radar and navigation displays on the F-5N.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...n8AAAEAAB3TztQAAAAR&modele=release

Quote:
“The US Navy stated that this new maintenance cost-avoidance program will save an estimated $20 million dollars over the life of the F-5N program. Interface’s newly designed radar/CDU will guarantee the F-5N Adversary program seamless functionality, while increasing mission training performance and situation-awareness safety."

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 7):
Think of Huawei electronics, they produce a lot of useful staff already.

Compare theirs with the above manufacturer's track record.....

Quote:
"Interface has been engineering and manufacturing innovative and reliable products for the military aviation industry for more than thirty years. The company specializes in the design and manufacturing of cockpit controls, display devices, data transfer systems, rugged computing devices, and keyboards for both military and commercial aircraft. All products are available with Night Vision (NVIS) compatible lighting and are useable in applications for aviation, marine, search & rescue, police, surveillance & security, as well as land vehicles and weapon support systems."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Max Q
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:40 am

Great stuff, thanks for posting.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Devilfish
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:42 am

A potentially worthy successor is now poised for prototyping.....

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Photo © Yunjin Lee - Korea Aero Photos
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Photo © Kim Jong Hwan
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http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ght-attack-fighter-prototypes.html

Quote:
"South Korea has asked Korea Aerospace Industries to develop a prototype of a light attack version of its T-50 advanced jet trainer, with a production contract likely to be awarded after the aircraft has been tested by the nation's air force.

Under the 400 billion won ($306 million) contract, KAI will upgrade four T-50s to the F/A-50 standard and deliver them to the South Korean air force by 2012. It then expects the service to order around 60 F/A-50s for delivery from 2013 to replace its ageing Northrop F-5s, and to eventually buy up to 150 of the type.

[.....]

The F/A-50 is also likely to use an EL/M-2032 radar supplied by Israel's Elta Systems. The radar selection has been a bone of contention with Lockheed Martin, which helped to develop the T-50 and had wanted KAI to use its own APG-67(V)4 on the F/A-50. Seoul had preferred Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems' Vixen 500E active electronically scanned array, but is barred from sharing the T-50's source codes with non-US companies. That led to it choosing the Israeli radar, which will be installed on the F/A-50 by a US company, meeting US government and Lockheed conditions."


Much preferable would be Northrop's SABR or Raytheon's RACR scaled-down AESA radar, but anyhow, the T-50 and F/A-50 combination could take over the crown formerly held by the T-38 and F-5. This will be a boon and a worthwhile investment for those countries looking long and hard for a good, cost efficient replacement for their faithful-serving or retired Tigers.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
fridgmus
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:29 am

Any ideas why the F-20 Tigershark did not garner enough or any export orders?

Thanks
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
SCAT15F
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:13 pm



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 20):
Any ideas why the F-20 Tigershark did not garner enough or any export orders?

Go to http://www.f20a.com/
 
Thorny
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:46 pm



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 21):
Go to http://www.f20a.com/

Be warned that that site is very strongly slanted in favor of Northrop and against pretty much everybody else. A little more balanced history of the B-35/B49 and F-5G/F-20 would have been better received.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:06 pm



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 20):
Any ideas why the F-20 Tigershark did not garner enough or any export orders?

Export restrictions on the F-16 got slacked.
 
fridgmus
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:40 am



Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 21):

Thanks SCAT, I read the entire website! Like Thorny said, it was slanted towards Northrop, but it read well. Knowing our Govt, I'm sure there's a lot of truth there!

No matter, a beautiful and very capable aircraft, one that should have been developed and at least exported.

Thanks for your help.  thumbsup 

F
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
trex8
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:34 am



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 20):
Any ideas why the F-20 Tigershark did not garner enough or any export orders?

Export restrictions on the F-16 got slacked.

and the ANG chose the block 15 ADF F16 instead of the F20
 
Acheron
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:31 am



Quoting Alberchico (Reply 3):

The FC-1 as far as I know comes from a project between China and Grumman to modernize the chinese J-7(MiG-21) in the 80's, so I doubt the FC-1 has anything in common with the F-5 other than general layout.
 
Devilfish
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:15 am

And speaking of modifications, these fighters from the Brazilian and Chilean air forces show the two most noticeable changes.....

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Photo © Chris Lofting
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Photo © Chris Lofting


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Photo © Guilherme Bystronski
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Photo © Guilherme Bystronski



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Photo © Guilherme Bystronski
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Photo © Andre Giron Bernaud


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Photo © Chris Lofting
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Photo © Chris Lofting


Note the two-seat version, and that the extended dorsal fin is not present in the other FAB F-5EM, while both of the FACh F-5E Tiger IIIs have it.

[Edited 2009-01-18 16:57:39]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ac788
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RE: F-5 Freedom Fighter: Still The Best.....

Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:20 pm

Don't forget the Swiss Air Force's F-5s which were relatively recently decommissioned.

http://www.airlinefan.com/photos/mem.../watermarked/medium_wm_1502769.jpg

IMHO the Freedom Fighter is a great looking aircraft. I recently saw a CF-5 at the Canadian Warplane Heritage Museum and it just looked amazing!  Smile

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