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The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:37 pm

The Netherlands has decided to go for JSF F35:

Argumentation is pretty much the same as the Norwegian one for buying F 35 instead of Gripen...

So far, article is only in Norwegian, sorry...

http://www.dagbladet.no/2008/12/18/n...r/jagerfly/jsf/jas_gripen/4087443/

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=545281
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:44 am

Here is a URL in English. Interesting, the Dutch conclude the F-135 superior in cost and capability as well.

I wonder what the odds are of two air forces screwing up the evaluation?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ranks-f-35-superior-to-rivals.html
 
keesje
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:00 am

I think that if the JSF was build in Europe it probably would have ordered yrs ago  Wink

I expect now the European air foces are buying US jets again, the US will do the same with European aircraft if they offer superior performance.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
steman
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 12:13 pm

well,
the F-35 will be builty in Europe.
Alenia of Italy will assemble all the examples destined to Europe, at least this is according to the general agreement for the participation of Italy in the program.
Not sure if this included those for the UK.
I recall having read somewhere that, while Italy got the final assembly line, the UK wanted a more specialized job, probably to establish a centre of excellence for maintanence.
Can anybody confirm this?

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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 3:39 pm

Flight Global's article on the Dutch military report.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ranks-f-35-superior-to-rivals.html

Quote:
Dutch military report ranks F-35 superior to rivals
By Stephen Trimble
The Netherlands defence ministry has categorically endorsed the capability and affordability of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter over two of its main rivals.
Dutch undersecretary of defence Jack de Vries pronounced the F-35 superior to the Saab Gripen NG and Lockheed’s proposed F-16 Advanced, ranking the latter two fighters essentially the same in its overall assessment.
The results of the comparison fulfils a requirement imposed by the Dutch parliament and clears the defence ministry to buy two F-35s in April 2009 to participate with the USA and the UK in the JSF programme's initial operational test and evaluation phase.
"The F-35 is the best multirole combat aircraft and by around 2015 will certainly be able to carry out all six main missions successfully," de Vries says.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
MCIGuy
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:29 pm



Quoting Steman (Reply 3):
Not sure if this included those for the UK.
I recall having read somewhere that, while Italy got the final assembly line, the UK wanted a more specialized job, probably to establish a centre of excellence for maintanence.

Well it's my understanding that the UK model will be be the only export model with basically the same capabilities as the US models, so my guess is that theirs will be built in the US.
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Tancrede
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 6:07 pm

I am still very surprise to hear that a plane is "FAR" superior to other ones, when it is still very much a paper plane.

I certainly do love this statement:

"The F-35 is the best multirole combat aircraft and by around 2015 will certainly be able to carry out all six main missions successfully," de Vries says.


The "certainly" and "by 2015" are words of conviction. But, in fact, we have only to wait until this date to see if this plane really gives what it was asked to do, or on the contrary to see some European countries feeling that they have been deceived, only that it would be too late for them.
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 8:56 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):
I expect now the European air foces are buying US jets again, the US will do the same with European aircraft if they offer superior performance.

The tanker program comes to my mind....and that ended up in patriotism,more or less...and i have a hard time seeing the Euro fighter less competitive than a F-16 Adv. witch Jack de vries ranking almost as the same as a F-35.
The F-35 will PROBABLY be a god plane,but it's way to early to say that it is the best plane,as off today it's just barely have manage to take of...

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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:20 pm



Quoting Tancrede (Reply 6):
I certainly do love this statement:

"The F-35 is the best multirole combat aircraft and by around 2015 will certainly be able to carry out all six main missions successfully," de Vries says.


The "certainly" and "by 2015" are words of conviction. But, in fact, we have only to wait until this date to see if this plane really gives what it was asked to do, or on the contrary to see some European countries feeling that they have been deceived, only that it would be too late for them.

The only certain things about this industry seems to be the following:

1. Cost over-runs
2. Delays
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F27Friendship
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm



Quoting Tancrede (Reply 6):
I am still very surprise to hear that a plane is "FAR" superior to other ones, when it is still very much a paper plane.

ow is it? Why are there several planes standing on the ramp then?!
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
All the partner nations will have the same level of stealth built in

Stealth yes. Full access to the A/C codes? No. This allows us to integrate what WE want rather then getting what we're given.



The Australian Defence Minister has met with Eurofighter Consortium Officials.


HERE from Jane's.

Australian DoD

On question- why goto Leeds? Huh? It's going to be freeeeeeeeezing; and grey. Big grin
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:36 am

This "decision" from the Dutch MOD is not very surprising since they have been favoring the F-35 from the beginning. This "evaluation" was only done to calm the lower house down. With almost $1Bn invested in the program it's also very hard not to come to the conclusion that the F-35 is the best cost effective choice. IMO, the F-35 is the way for RNlAF to go.

What strikes me though is that de Vries says there were many unknowns around the F-16 Adv and Gripen NG, and yet he hands in the report two months in advance. Perhaps he wasn't so eager on knowing...  Smile

Hats off to him though for admitting this instead of making up his own numbers based on their F-16AM/BM's...  duck 

Quoting Alien (Reply 1):
I wonder what the odds are of two air forces screwing up the evaluation?

You can't compare Dutch "evaluation" to the Norwegian. The Dutch MOD spent a roughly a month evaluating an RFI while Norway spend 6-8 months on their RBI who had a bit more substance in it.

Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
As of today there are twice as many F-35s flying as there are Gripen NG. So that argument has even more traction with the Gripen NG. How many Gripen NG will be flying by the end of 2009? At least 12 F-35s will be flying.

The Gripen NG isn't an entirely new aircraft that has to go through a complete test program. The Gripen NG schedule is also less hurried since the EIS isn't needed until 2014. And since the Gripen NG has a lot in common with the Gripen C/D, these can be used as test beds as well (very much like LM/NG used the F-16 to test the F-35 DAS). And on top of this, there is a Gripen NG simulator and avionics rig up and running....
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:22 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
As of today there are twice as many F-35s flying as there are Gripen NG. So that argument has even more traction with the Gripen NG. How many Gripen NG will be flying by the end of 2009? At least 12 F-35s will be flying.

If you put it that way,is it the pure nr that sets it's capabilities? There are only one NG in the air as of today but that single nr has accomplish more than those F-35,therefor the NG would be a really super plane then?.....Ore could we agree on that the NG has allot in common with the C/D,s??? Off course it has,NG would probably not have 10,15 or 20 test frames!

Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
Don't buy the F-35 and don't come to us if you should need help with the Russians or (yes) the Germans.

So that's the deal right? thanks for clearing that up!

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
ow is it? Why are there several planes standing on the ramp then?!

He maybe meant that they have to do allot more than that....and it will eventually  Wink

Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
What strikes me though is that de Vries says there were many unknowns around the F-16 Adv and Gripen NG, and yet he hands in the report two months in advance. Perhaps he wasn't so eager on knowing...

Isn't he rather well known for this?  covereyes 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:46 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
As of today there are twice as many F-35s flying as there are Gripen NG. So that argument has even more traction with the Gripen NG. How many Gripen NG will be flying by the end of 2009? At least 12 F-35s will be flying.

The F-35 is only a flying prototype, very far to be operational. Also, I really doubt that this plane will ever be good in any combat situation, but that is only my personal feeling.
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:19 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
What strikes me though is that de Vries says there were many unknowns around the F-16 Adv and Gripen NG, and yet he hands in the report two months in advance. Perhaps he wasn't so eager on knowing...  

BS how do you mean 2 months early. 18th December has always been the date.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
You can't compare Dutch "evaluation" to the Norwegian. The Dutch MOD spent a roughly a month evaluating an RFI while Norway spend 6-8 months on their RBI who had a bit more substance in it.

hold your horses. THey took 3 months and even allowed SAAB more time when they asked for it.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
nd since the Gripen NG has a lot in common with the Gripen C/D,

well, the Gripen C/D wasn't even considered fit enough to take into the evalution in 2001, so I don;t think that's a very strong argument.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 13):
And on top of this, there is a Gripen NG simulator and avionics rig up and running....

All the JSF mission systems are operational and flying on a 737 testbed.

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 15):
The F-35 is only a flying prototype, very far to be operational. Also, I really doubt that this plane will ever be good in any combat situation, but that is only my personal feeling.

the prototype flew in 2001. These are (early) production models that are flying. On what do you base your dimm expectations of F-35?
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:22 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 17):
http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/?p=297
Translated quote:

well, let me tell you that that website is not objective. It's an anti-JSF website.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 17):
Sorry, I was way wrong... Turned out to be 4 months early.

you are mixing up stuff. The Air Force evaluation was always due this date. What you are talking about is the date when parliament decides on acquiring 2 test aircraft.

So what happens the next 4 months is that parliament will start evaluating the evaluation.
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:46 pm



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 11):
The Australian Defence Minister has met with Eurofighter Consortium Officials.


HERE from Jane's.

Didn't Australia commit to buying the F-35? Why are they looking at the Typhoon? No, I'm not anti-European or anti-Typhoon. I like the Typhoon a lot! But why would they need the Typhoon if the F-35 can do the multi-mission thing far better than the F-16 and apparently better than the Typhoon can?
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:00 pm



Quoting Tancrede (Reply 6):
I certainly do love this statement:

"The F-35 is the best multirole combat aircraft and by around 2015 will certainly be able to carry out all six main missions successfully," de Vries says.

The "certainly" and "by 2015" are words of conviction.

Yes, but it doesn't say "by 2015", it says "by around 2015"!

If we're going by A380/B787/A400M/Wedgetail/etc schedules, I'd add two years right off the top....
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highlander0
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:03 pm

EBJ1248650,

they didn't commit. There has been a whole fuss recently after a report was published (can't think of it off the top of my head- although I think I remember the recent RAND report being mentioned {correct me if I'm wrong})

Reading the wikipedia article (and reference) the F-35 is going to be 80% as loud as a F-15 on take off and something like 200% louder on landing (correct me if figures are wrong). I think the phrase "OUCH!!" or "WTF WAS THAT!!" comes to mind.
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:08 pm



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 22):
Reading the wikipedia article (and reference) the F-35 is going to be 80% as loud as a F-15 on take off and something like 200% louder on landing (correct me if figures are wrong). I think the phrase "OUCH!!" or "WTF WAS THAT!!" comes to mind.

that's a rather awkward way of measuring sound...
 
Alessandro
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:10 pm

I can´t understand the reasons to upgrade their fighters? Who are they going to use it on?
Helicopters and/or tiltrotors I could understand but fighters in Europe?
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highlander0
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:27 pm

Oh! I was WAY off.

Quote:
In late 2008 the Air Force revealed that the F-35 would be about twice as loud at takeoff as the F-15 Eagle and up to four times as loud upon landing.

From wiki.


The reference to the above entry is the Arizona Star
 
ebj1248650
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:40 pm



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 22):
they didn't commit. There has been a whole fuss recently after a report was published (can't think of it off the top of my head- although I think I remember the recent RAND report being mentioned {correct me if I'm wrong})

Are you thinking of that F-35 "clubbed like a baby seal" thing? Seems the results of that evaluation were taken all out of context and the subsequent report caused quite a stink.

I have no problem with the Australians ordering the Typhoon. I believe it would serve them very well. It has exceptional air-to-air capabilities, as I understand it, and its air-to-ground capabilities continue to expand. Frankly, I'm not well versed on the differences between the F-35 and the Typhoon so I honestly don't know what the Australians would loose if they choose not to go the F-35 route.
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:14 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 23):
that's a rather awkward way of measuring sound...

% is not the scale witch the sound is measuring in right? I think we get the picture!!

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 26):
have no problem with the Australians ordering the Typhoon. I believe it would serve them very well. It has exceptional air-to-air capabilities, as I understand it, and its air-to-ground capabilities continue to expand. Frankly, I'm not well versed on the differences between the F-35 and the Typhoon so I honestly don't know what the Australians would loose if they choose not to go the F-35 route.

Very true!! I have read that there have been some issue with Australia and the F-35 and that it depended more on that they wanted the F-22.....tough i like Typhoon..i don't know witch one that would serve them the best....
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F27Friendship
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:45 pm



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 24):
I can´t understand the reasons to upgrade their fighters? Who are they going to use it on?
Helicopters and/or tiltrotors I could understand but fighters in Europe?

Only 9 years ago with had the biggest air campaign since the second world war over Kosovo where the Dutch had a very big contribution (first to enter Serbian Airspace).

Right now they form the backbone of close-air-support in Afghanistan

You might want to open your eyes a bit..
 
highlander0
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:08 pm

I'd hazard a (and let me emphasis this) GUESS that the main loss would be the loss of "stealth" capability.


But if something is invisible to radar- why not aim where the gap is? (I'm thinking F-117 in the Balkan campaign- or am I wrong :/ )
 
Devilfish
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:59 am



Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 29):
But if something is invisible to radar- why not aim where the gap is? (I'm thinking F-117 in the Balkan campaign- or am I wrong :/ )

This release from LM indicates that is being addressed.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...9ae_f-35settingrecordstraight.html

Quote:
"The F-35 is specifically designed to take advantage of lessons learned from the F-117 stealth aircraft. Unlike the F-117, the ability to share tactically important information is built into the F-35, along with stealth."

.....in addition to refuting allegations against the JSF.....

Quote:
"#The F-35 is a racehorse, not a "dog," as Wheeler/Sprey suggest. In stealth combat configuration, the F-35 aerodynamically outperforms all other combat-configured 4th generation aircraft in top-end speed, loiter, subsonic acceleration and combat radius. This allows unprecedented "see/shoot first" and combat radius advantages.

#The high thrust-to-weight ratios of the lightweight fighter program Wheeler/Sprey recall from 30 years ago did not take into consideration combat-range fuel, sensors or armament, which dramatically alter wing loading, thrust-to-weight ratios and maneuverability. We do consider all of this in today's fighters.

#The F-35 has the most powerful engine ever installed in a fighter, with thrust equivalent to both engines today in Eurofighter or F/A-18 aircraft. The conventional version of the F-35 has 9g capability and matches the turn rates of the F-16 and F/A-18. More importantly, in a combat load, with all fuel, targeting sensor pods and weapons carried internally, the F-35's aerodynamic performance far exceeds all legacy aircraft equipped with a similar capability.

#When the threat situation diminishes so that it is safe for legacy aircraft to participate in the fight, the F-35 can also carry ordnance on six external wing stations in addition to its four internal stations."
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JoeCanuck
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:35 am

One reason Australia might be considering the Typhoon could be the same reason Canada chose the f-18 over the f-16; both countries have huge expanses of bad places to land. A second engine gives you a lot of piece of mind when you're flying over thousands of square miles of deadly nothing.
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MCIGuy
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:45 pm

Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
You understand wrong. All the partner nations will have the same level of stealth built in. So will the Japanese, Israelis, and other closely aligned nations. Whether countries like Saudi Arabia get the full treatment is still up in the air.

Well yeah, stealth comes mainly from the materials and the shape of the structure so they're all going to have the same level of stealth, obviously.
The point is the British have invested more money than any other partner nation (and second only to the US) and are the only "Level 1" partner. Maybe I'm wrong but I thought this gave them more access to the technologies inherent to the F-35 than other partner nations.

Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 11):
Quoting Alien (Reply 10):
All the partner nations will have the same level of stealth built in

Stealth yes. Full access to the A/C codes? No. This allows us to integrate what WE want rather then getting what we're given



[Edited 2008-12-28 15:03:07]
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baroque
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:18 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 10):



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 17):
Quoting TGIF (Reply 17):
http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/?p=297
Translated quote:

well, let me tell you that that website is not objective. It's an anti-JSF website.

How about the links that they give? One does not seem to work, but the other is not that complimentary (either).

Not knowing Dutch, you could always interpret a description of anything as being devastating. But I always love "Volkskrant ". ?A perfect fit for a.net.

Quoting Highlander0 (Reply 11):
The Australian Defence Minister has met with Eurofighter Consortium Officials.
HERE from Jane's.
Australian DoD
On question- why goto Leeds? Huh? It's going to be freeeeeeeeezing; and grey

It will be interesting to see which way Joel goes on this. For a start, do we need a fighter - yes - or a bomber, I rather doubt it. You could say that some activities are giving bombing a bad reputation or you could say that bombing deserves a bad reputation! Whatever, bombing Indonesia (about as far as an F35 can go from Aus) should not be high on any priority list.

Equally, one could wonder just which countries The Netherlands is thinking about bombing? Again, fighters - yes - bombers - what for?

PS Easy up on Leeds. Grey and freezing yes, but such character! And so close to the dales.
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:08 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):
The Netherlands is thinking about bombing?

For the last 15 yrs we have been bombing frequently  Sad

Bosnia, Serbia, Afghanistan maybe Iraq (officially denied).

Air to air only the usual intercepts / patrols. Last time serious A to A occured was 1993.



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baroque
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:58 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 34):
Bosnia, Serbia, Afghanistan maybe Iraq (officially denied).

But with a plane designed at least in part as a bomber?
 
JoeinTX
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:31 am

"One reason Australia might be considering the Typhoon could be the same reason Canada chose the f-18 over the f-16; both countries have huge expanses of bad places to land. A second engine gives you a lot of piece of mind when you're flying over thousands of square miles of deadly nothing.."



There is something to twin-engine reliability, but, over the last 20+ years that concern has been alleviated a great deal as modern jet engines have become extraordinarily reliable machines. Even in the late 1970s and early 1980 as countries like Australia and Canada were evaluating new aircraft this was a serious concern for them (and one for the U.S. Navy who didn't seem to be interested in a navalized F-16 but were in the F-17) but that issue has subsided a great deal. The U.S. Navy seems to be perfectly satisfied with the performance of the latest generation of jet engines in the F-35 to hang a huge future stake on it from its carrier decks for the next 30 years.


The biggest problems with the Australian F-35 situation arise from pols, posters, and armchair Air Marshalls who can't seem to break their death grip on the creaky old F-111. They don't understand that the F-35 isn't being bought as an F-111 replacement (nor the Super Hornet) and that the capabilities of the F-111 are being replaced by a number of assets....new tactical aircraft, new tanking, new AEW, new naval capabilities, eventual UAV purchase, etc.
 
highlander0
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:49 pm

Well- if you're looking at a fighter I'd say the chips are in the EF2000s corner surely?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):
Easy up on Leeds. Grey and freezing yes, but such character! And so close to the dales

Had a cracking night out there! Hmmm I think I might have to go back up! Big grin
 
F27Friendship
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:13 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):
How about the links that they give? One does not seem to work, but the other is not that complimentary (either).

well, they usually link to official documents or other news media and then present a rewritten"summary" of it's content portraying it as mere fact stating while they are simply venting their own opinion. So they would state something, link to (lengthy) documents and state it as facts (which they are most often not)

Let me tell you about one thing the guy behind this website does. His name is Mr. Johan Boeder and he has given himself the title "JSF Watcher" (which often is translated into JSF expert by other websites) who claims to have extensive experience in aerospace.

He now apparently has acces to members of parliament to whom he gives "briefings" about the JSF program and what his "concerns" are. He posts these online and then writes it in the third person (as if the author of the news article and himself are not the same person).

The most dirty trick he pulls is that he has had himself interviewed (mostly by reformatorisch dagblad) and in the interview he gives his coloured biased opinions. After that he posts a news item on his own website (not under his name, simply as JSFnieuws) which links to the article where a certain Mr Boeder, JSF watchter (again in the third person) is being interviewed in a newspaper. So he basically laundries his subjective bullcrap into something that looks like facts.

As to his so called experience in aerospace, the guy has a small software company that specializes in agricultural applications: http://www.beversoftware.nl/

the one thing that puzzles me are his motives. I can't understand why someone would spend so much time and money on this crusade (while it seems he has no personal gain)
 
F27Friendship
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 38):
(which often is translated into JSF expert by other websites)

wow this is going further then I thought. Just googled his name again. On this website (http://www.nordensnyheter.no/Default.aspx?Id=596 ) he made it as "military analyst"! See how the internet can turn an absolute nobody in an so called expert?!
 
prebennorholm
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:33 am

The political system works a little slower in Denmark, but as it seems today there is little doubt that Denmark will soon make the same decision.

The quantity will be lower, probably in the 30-40 frame. And we will most likely have no hurry. Delivery can easily wait until late in next decade.

But it seems like the decision has already been taken, and that only some paperwork has to be done during the next few months.

Several Danish industries, which have done a lot of F-16 work during the last 30 years, are pushing hard to get the decision finalized.

The air force and the MOD favor the F-35A. But some politicians want more "investigations".

But since we always operate together with the Dutch and Norwegian air forces (as the small partner), then it will create a terrible logistic headache if we choose to cancel our level 3 partnership on the F-35 and order Gripen or F-16 Adv.
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TGIF
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:36 pm

Contrary to what the title of the thread says, no decision has been done yet. A Dutch committee will apparently visit Sweden this week to talk about Gripen NG. Two weeks from now they'll head to LM to talk about F-16 and F-35.

The source I have is unfortunately only in Dutch
http://www.tweedekamer.nl/nieuws/per...missie_Defensie_bezoekt_Zweden.jsp


@Prebennorholm
A bit OT, but relating to Gripen NG and a future RDAF F-16 replacement.

Learning from the way Norway handled the Gripen NG, Saab has decided to offer a guaranteed maximum life time cost. The cost is reportedly 917M DKK (~$160M) a piece over 30 years. The reporter then states that the same cost is 2B DDK (~$350M) for the F-35. There are however no mentions about the F-18's costs.

After this intro there's an interview with a Danish expert, but his Danish wasn't as easy to understand as the reporters. Perhaps you can fill in any blanks Preben?

http://www.dr.dk/P1/P1Morgen/Udsendelser/2009/02/05/103117.htm
 
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SAS A340
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:04 pm



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 40):
The quantity will be lower, probably in the 30-40 frame. And we will most likely have no hurry. Delivery can easily wait until late in next decade.

Is this nr regarding the F-35 ore overall?

Quoting TGIF (Reply 41):
Learning from the way Norway handled the Gripen NG, Saab has decided to offer a guaranteed maximum life time cost. The cost is reportedly 917M DKK (~$160M) a piece over 30 years. The reporter then states that the same cost is 2B DDK (~$350M) for the F-35. There are however no mentions about the F-18's costs.

So Denmark could have,if this is correct up to 80 Gripen NG for the same price as 40 F-35...ore if they go for 30! F-35,how active can you be,as a NATO member ore a partner and at the same time controlling it's own airspace...either way this is interesting and future will tell  wave 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:11 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 41):
Learning from the way Norway handled the Gripen NG, Saab has decided to offer a guaranteed maximum life time cost. The cost is reportedly 917M DKK (~$160M) a piece over 30 years. The reporter then states that the same cost is 2B DDK (~$350M) for the F-35. There are however no mentions about the F-18's costs.

But does it come with a free replacement guarantee?  Silly

Lifetime cost guarantees don't do much good if you have to double up and replace one that was lost during a battle. Of course this is the crux of the debate: Which plane is better? Which will have a higher level of survivability in fight? "Value" other than keeping your resources intact - both pilot and plane - means little. Right now both planes have little/no experiences to base a real opinion on.

Tugg
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F27Friendship
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:37 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 43):
So Denmark could have,if this is correct up to 80 Gripen NG for the same price as 40 F-35.

you can also buy 90 Kia Rio's for the same price as 30 Mercedes C180's

It all depends what kind of "car" you're looking for
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:42 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 44):
But does it come with a free replacement guarantee?

In Norway's calculations 50% (i think) would have crashed within 30 years so in that case.....hell NO!!!  alert 

Quoting Tugger (Reply 44):
Lifetime cost guarantees don't do much good if you have to double up and replace one that was lost during a battle. Of course this is the crux of the debate: Which plane is better? Which will have a higher level of survivability in fight? "Value" other than keeping your resources intact - both pilot and plane - means little. Right now both planes have little/no experiences to base a real opinion on.

Very very true!  checkmark 
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DYflyer
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:16 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 46):
In Norway's calculations 50% (i think) would have crashed within 30 years so in that case.....hell NO!!!

That sounds like a lot. We have only lost 13 F16s of the 74 we bought. I don't think we would calculate with such a huge increase in losses in the future, even if we participate in more operations abroad now.
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:50 pm

The cost for replacing aircraft is part of the estimation, with the assumption that almost half of the aircraft fleet will crash in 35 years. This is completely unfounded if applied to Gripen's statistics. This also adds further billions to the calculation.
http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRel...omments_on_norwegian_evalution.htm

Sounds a bit high to me to,but I'm no expert. Sorry if it went a bit off topic,just wanted to make sure my memory didn't fail me   

[Edited 2009-02-12 12:55:14]
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TGIF
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:34 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 43):
Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 40):
The quantity will be lower, probably in the 30-40 frame. And we will most likely have no hurry. Delivery can easily wait until late in next decade.

Is this nr regarding the F-35 ore overall?

I saw 24 frames being mentioned somewhere. As you said, with only 24 frames there aren’t many left for overseas operations, since most will be needed guarding your own territory. This, IMO, weakens the argument about commonality with NATO forces.


In relating news; it seems as the Netherlands has been offered a similar deal as the Danes. A "maximum life-time cost over 30 years". It seems this has lead the Christian Democrats to put some pressure on De Vries telling him to get a similar price for the F-35 from LM. This might be kind of hard as there won't be a price set until ~2012 IFAIK. Perhaps the Dutch can strike a better deal for the two F-35 test aircrafts.

Source in Dutch.
http://www.refdag.nl/artikel/1391803...ab+biedt+lagere+prijs+dan+JSF.html
 
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:51 pm

"The Dutch Ministry of Defence's plan to replace its F-16 fighter planes by 2014 is premature, according to research carried out at Leiden University by Bert Kreemers.

Mr Kreemers, a former Defence Ministry spokesman, says that given the planes' generally accepted lifespan of 6,000 flight hours, and that they are used for 175 hours or less per year, most of the fighters can remain in service until at least 2020. The oldest ones date back to 1984. Other countries are assuming an 8,000-hour lifespan for the plane, suggesting that the Dutch defence forces could retain this jet fighter even longer, Mr Kreemers told NOS Radio."

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publ..._For_Scrapheap_or_Not100017091.php

I have also read in the Swedish media that the representatives that are here in Sweden for three days to take a closer look at the Gripen said that the total nr ordered could ore should be lower than 85,and also be pushed forward in time....
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F27Friendship
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:15 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 49):
It seems this has lead the Christian Democrats to put some pressure on De Vries telling him to get a similar price for the F-35 from LM. This might be kind of hard as there won't be a price set until ~2012 IFAIK. Perhaps the Dutch can strike a better deal for the two F-35 test aircrafts.

just for the purpose of correctness, De Vries is from the Christian Democrats (CDA), the member of parliament putting pressure on him is from the Cristian Union (CU).

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 50):
Mr Kreemers, a former Defence Ministry spokesman, says that given the planes' generally accepted lifespan of 6,000 flight hours, and that they are used for 175 hours or less per year, most of the fighters can remain in service until at least 2020. The oldest ones date back to 1984. Other countries are assuming an 8,000-hour lifespan for the plane, suggesting that the Dutch defence forces could retain this jet fighter even longer, Mr Kreemers told NOS Radio."

I haven't read the report yet but I do know Mr Kreemers is politcally affiliated. Furthermore people are playing with numbers, 'forgetting' certain facts and drawing wrong conclusions on purpose.

I'm not necesarily contending his numbers, but do keep in mind that:

-once you come near the 6,000 and 8,000 hour mark, the amount of maintenance hours per flying hour will start to go up exponentially (and thus cost)

-if the RNLAF will start receiving F-35's in 2014, the last F-16 will not leave the fleet before 2020-2030, which matches the year the end-of-life will be reached

-Aircraft procurement is a multi-year process. It's not like they will receive 85 airframes in a box in 2014 and throw away the remaining F-16 all in one go.
 
TGIF
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:27 pm



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 52):
just for the purpose of correctness, De Vries is from the Christian Democrats (CDA), the member of parliament putting pressure on him is from the Cristian Union (CU).

Thanks for the correction, sorry if I confused anyone! I learned Dutch from speaking Swedish, German and English and it only works to some degree.  Smile
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:42 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 47):
In relating news; it seems as the Netherlands has been offered a similar deal as the Danes. A "maximum life-time cost over 30 years". It seems this has lead the Christian Democrats to put some pressure on De Vries telling him to get a similar price for the F-35 from LM. This might be kind of hard as there won't be a price set until ~2012 IFAIK. Perhaps the Dutch can strike a better deal for the two F-35 test aircrafts.

Well, there is more pressure for De Vries than just the Christen Unie (CU). Also the PvdA (Labour Party) is pressing for the same. So from the three parties currently in the government, two are already thinking about the Gripen as a good alternative.

If Lockheed-Martin isn't going to give a fixed-price, I could see this order going to another way. Opposition parties are also very impressed by the Saab proposal, so Lockheed-Martin will have to tell them something about prices and guarantees as the sentiment is changing.

Cheers!  wave 
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F27Friendship
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RE: The Netherlands Has Decided To Go For JSF F35

Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:34 pm



Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 51):
Well, there is more pressure for De Vries than just the Christen Unie (CU). Also the PvdA (Labour Party) is pressing for the same. So from the three parties currently in the government, two are already thinking about the Gripen as a good alternative.

If Lockheed-Martin isn't going to give a fixed-price, I could see this order going to another way. Opposition parties are also very impressed by the Saab proposal, so Lockheed-Martin will have to tell them something about prices and guarantees as the sentiment is changing.

it's making me sick really. We have one of the most professional and effective air forces in the world because we let our professionals decide what is best to do their job.

Now the p#**king politicians are using this to gain some leverage in who knows how many agenda's and the're trying to twist our aerospace industry's neck for the second time in a little over a decade.

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