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autothrust
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Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:22 am

Just for comparison i wonder how high the Fighters Maintenance Man-Hours per Flight Hour are? Of course exact data are mostly classified but maybe someone has roughly the numbers.

Most interesting would be what are the "estimated" Maintenance Man-Hours per Flight Hours of the F-35/F-22/F-18/F-15/F-14/F-4/Tornado/Rafale/Gripen/Mig-29/Su-27/Su-35/and etc..
So we can make a comparison chart.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.  Smile


To begin with:

-The Draken needed whopping 50 manhours for 1 flight hour.
-The Eurofighter needs about 9 manhours(inclusive engines).
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
HaveBlue
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:55 am

I'm very interested in seeing some numbers in this thread, good question. The only numbers I remember hearing bantered about as far as maint/flight hour is the F-14 at 24 and the F-18 at 6. This usually springing up in defense of retiring the one for the other.

Along with the F-15, F-16 and the ones you listed I would also like to see numbers even if they are not concrete on the SR-71, XB-70, B-2 and F-117.
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autothrust
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Compari

Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:08 am



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 1):
F-14 at 24 and the F-18 at 6


Thank you for your very interesting numbers. But i do wonder about the F-18 needing only 6 hours. The Swiss Airfoce declared the F-18 being a good plane and they are happy with its performance but it needed to much maintenance. Maybe this depends on the version.

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 1):
I would also like to see numbers even if they are not concrete on the SR-71, XB-70, B-2 and F-117

Indeed, would be fascinating to have those numbers.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
TGIF
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:44 am



Quoting Autothrust (Thread starter):
-The Draken needed whopping 50 manhours for 1 flight hour.

Wow! That's bad!

The only numbers I found for the JAS 39A said 10 mmh/fh (from f-16.net). The poster supposedly quoted SwAF sources that made a comparison between it and EF, F-16, F-18 and Mirage 2000-5. It claimed that the numbers for the F-18E/F was 15 mmh/fh. Since the it has two engines it’s no surprise it’s higher than the Gripen.

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 1):
and the F-18 at 6.

Do you know which version this refers to?

Regarding the F-22, I ran into this just recently. No "mmh/fh" numbers but it's at least something.

Quote:
LO maintenance hours account for over half of all maintenance time

http://www.pogo.org/pogo-files/alert...onal-security/ns-f22-20090220.html
 
GST
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:52 pm

I cant add any de facto numbers to the pot, but i asked a friend who was RAF groundcrew for 9 years and worked with tornados how long they took per flight hour and got the impression 9 hours would have been considered a godsend.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:00 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 3):
LO maintenance hours account for over half of all maintenance time

Amazing!  eyepopping   crazy 

Quote:

"At a total of $354 million per plane this new information shows the F-22 is not only the most expensive but also the most difficult fighter aircraft to maintain—and it isn't even experiencing combat stress

I think this explains why LO requirements were not given priority on the EF program. This would have increased the costs and maintenance dramatically..
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HaveBlue
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:30 pm

Got these from the Air & Space magazine January 2008:

Early F-117..- 113 to 1
Concorde.....- 18 to 1



Here's the compilation from this thread so far:

Saab Draken.- 50 to 1
Eurofighter....- 9 to 1
F-14............. - 24 to 1
F-18E/F........- 6 to 1
F-18E/F........- 15 to 1 (different source)
Saab Gripen..- 10 to 1
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HaveBlue
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:11 pm

Got these from the Air & Space magazine January 2008:

Early F-117..- 113 to 1
Concorde.....- 18 to 1



Here's the compilation from this thread so far:

Saab Draken.- 50 to 1
Eurofighter....- 9 to 1
F-14............. - 24 to 1
F-18E/F........- 6 to 1
F-18E/F........- 15 to 1 (different source)
Saab Gripen..- 10 to 1

C-17.............- 20 to 1
F-15A/B........- 32.3 here thru f117 stats from (HaveBlue and the F-117A by David Aronstein)
F-15C/D........- 22.1
F-16A...........- 19.2
F-117...........- 150 (pre 1989)
F-117...........- 45 (after improvements, post 1989)
CH-46E........- 19.6 in 1995 GlobalSecurity.org
CH-46E........- 27.2 in 2000
CH-53D........- 24.8 in 1995
CH-53D........- 27.9 in 2000
F-20.............- 5.6 (http://www.f20a.com/f20maint.htm)
A-6E............- 51.9 DMMH/FH (http://yarchive.net/mil/fa18_vs_a6.html)
F/A-18C.......- 19.1 DMMH/FH
B-2..............- 124

"The actual B-2 maintenance man-hours per flying hour at Whiteman Air Force Base averaged 124 hours over 12 months ending in March 1997."
(http://www.fas.org/man/gao/nsiad97181.htm)

Mirage 2000..- 10 Dash 5 (http://www.mirage-jet.com/AIRFRAME/MAINTE_1/mainte_1.htm)
Gripen..........- 12 (http://www.mirage-jet.com/AIRFRAME/MAINTE_1/mainte_1.htm)



Interesting about the A-7A from a 1964 article...

The contract
between the Navy and Ling-Temco-Vought calls for an 80-per-cent
probability that the aircraft will all achieve mission success, and that
maintenance man-hours per flight hour must not exceed 11.5 or a
penalty will be imposed. If maintenance man-hours per flight hour
reach 13, the contractor must pay the Navy a penalty of $50 per
hour; if the figure reaches 17 the Navy is to receive $700 per hour.
If the maintenance requirement is higher still, then the airplane
will be returned to the contractor for a complete refund of its cost
to the Navy." http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1964/1964%20-%201850.html
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474218
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:23 pm

When I was in the USAF I worked on the SR-71, in the 9 FMS Airframe Repair Shop (sheet metal). We scheduled 40 man hours (for the sheet metal repair only]) for each flight hour of the SR-71. It was labor intensive, preflights twelve (12) hours.
 
studedave
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:33 am

You guys do realize that none of these numbers are concrete- EVER!!! During my Naval Career (20 years, thanks) I saw high numbers and low numbers-- it varied from month to month most of the time. There are so many variables that it'll be hard to nail down solid numbers.

Just a few variables would include~~
Aircraft you have (brand new, been around the block, reworked lately?)
Maintainers you have (newbies, old salts, trained?)
Ops you might be up to (working up, standing down. Training, front line?)
Polices in place where you are, when you are there.

All of these things will make those numbers go up or down. Then of course there are those who might fudge them to meet their agenda~ buy more of these birds, scrap those birds, etc.
Unless you get the numbers right from the source~ FROM A MAINTAINER~ they mean nothing. And even then, they will vary...
Classic planes, Classic trains, and Studebakers~~ what else is there???
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:44 am

The F/A-18E/F and F-14 numbers are, I suspect, direct MMH/FH only, since both aircraft are more maintenance intensive than those figures suggest. The E/F figure of 15 chimes with what I've heard, while towards the end, the Tomcat figure was three times higher than quoted. I saw an official figure of 72 MMH/FH somewhere, and wish I could remember where.

The Typhoon figure of 9 is a bit on the low side, too, it's only marginally less than 10.
 
Venus6971
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:42 pm

Well mx man hours can be looked like this to a bean counter. Every job or task has been broken down how much time it will take to do a specific task. Such as -6 preflight on a E-3, per the 1E-3A-6WC-1 it should take about 6 to 8 hours to complete the task, but if you have a experianced Crew Chief it should only take 2 hours at most and that is if he is taking his time working alone. Now if he finds write ups that need attention it will take him longer but those get broken down in different tasks which get entered into a data base to show work accomplished, crew size and if it took over 8 hours per the task. Now if you want to get bored to tears I reallly don't want to get indepth with the USAF maintenance data collection. Its a numbers game to keep up manning and money but if you fudge it to much you end up getting your acft retired. Usally you end up with something like this. Pretend a E-3 Sentry.
-6 preflight 8 man hours (MH)
#4 tire worn beyond limits remove and replace (R2) tire 3 MH
#6 brake worn beyond limits R2 brake 6MH
Left landing light inop R2 bulb 1MH
flt deck UHF radio inop, R2 UHF RT 2MH
Loose rivets #1 engine ring cowl, remove ring cowl route to back shop repair reinstall 12 MH.
I could go on but as you see it could add up just for a 8 hour flight, and that just includes what you need to order parts for not including basic servicing of fuel,oxygen and nitrogen. So be careful drawing conclusions, If you use this type of data collection you will end up with high mx hours to flight hours even with a Piper Cub.
Hopefully this will explain mx man hours for the non mil acft mx types.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
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autothrust
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:32 pm

First, thank all for your contribution.
Some numbers are really fascinating.(F-117/ A-7A for example)
It would be great if someone (maybe a russian a.net member) could post some numbers for russian/soviet models if its possible.

Quoting Studedave (Reply 9):
You guys do realize that none of these numbers are concrete- EVER

Of course we realize that are raw numbers which have to be taken carefully.
But they give an idea, don't you think?

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
The F/A-18E/F and F-14 numbers are, I suspect, direct MMH/FH only, since both aircraft are more maintenance intensive than those figures suggest. The E/F figure of 15 chimes with what I've heard

I heard that too regarding the F-18.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 10):
The Typhoon figure of 9 is a bit on the low side,

Maybe this depends on the airforce. From a Austrian Airfoce source the number is rather 9mmh fh.

[Edited 2009-02-25 10:33:36]
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Jackonicko
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:25 pm

Certainly if you're not flying demanding mission profiles, and are usually flying clean, then your MMH/FH figures are going to look better than those of an air force flying lots of sorties in heavy A-G configuration, with mx and LDP fitted.
 
Venus6971
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:11 pm



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 12):
Of course we realize that are raw numbers which have to be taken carefully.
But they give an idea, don't you think?

I think the mx manhours to flight hours is a bad metric to determine a acft cost.
I would look at its on time take off rate, scheduling effectiveness, deviations to the flight schedule, total Mission and non mission capable rate. Then if the acft is of stealth type mission F-22 and B-2 look at scheduling effectiveness because you go Non Mission capable flyable they use for training before they stick in the corrosion hanger to take care of the hundreds of low observable NMC write ups per acft . No need for stealth during training sorties and espicially after major mx or inspection to determine air worthiness.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:34 pm



Quoting Studedave (Reply 9):
You guys do realize that none of these numbers are concrete- EVER!!! During my Naval Career (20 years, thanks) I saw high numbers and low numbers-- it varied from month to month most of the time. There are so many variables that it'll be hard to nail down solid numbers.

I was talking to several F-18 mechanics on this, and they firmly believe each airplane has its own "personality." They have come across several aircraft that are a flat out bitch to repair, no matter how simple the task is. Then, they also have their fair share of "dream" repairs as in the aircraft is literally a dream/easy to repair. They have no hesitations on this applies to all aircraft.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
MX757
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:00 am



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 7):
F-16A...........- 19.2

I worked on block 15 F-16A and B models while I was in the MI ANG in the early 90's. We even had A/C 78-003, # 3 off the production line, they were labor intensive but I can't believe the 19.2 to 1 ratio. I would put that figure to at least 10 to 1 for our unit.

When I was active duty in the late 90's and worked on F-4E's I was told that the maintenance to flight ratio for this type was 24 to 1. But I never saw actual fact sheets.
Is it broke...? Yeah I'll fix it.
 
OzTech
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:14 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 11):
-6 preflight 8 man hours (MH)
#4 tire worn beyond limits remove and replace (R2) tire 3 MH
#6 brake worn beyond limits R2 brake 6MH
Left landing light inop R2 bulb 1MH
flt deck UHF radio inop, R2 UHF RT 2MH
Loose rivets #1 engine ring cowl, remove ring cowl route to back shop repair reinstall 12 MH.
I could go on but as you see it could add up just for a 8 hour flight, and that just includes what you need to order parts for not including basic servicing of fuel,oxygen and nitrogen. So be careful drawing conclusions, If you use this type of data collection you will end up with high mx hours to flight hours even with a Piper Cub.
Hopefully this will explain mx man hours for the non mil acft mx types.

Well, in civillian life, the hours you quote would bankrupt an airline...

Mainwheel change on an airliner- 30 mins for 2 MX guys
Brake change on a airliner- 45 mins for 2 MX guys
Any radio ASP or black box change - 30 mins for 1 MX guy
Engine nose cowl change - 120 mins for 2 MX guys and a crane driver
165,000 Kgs of fuel to load - 90 mins for 1 MX guy
Complete engine change - RR or PW on a 747 - 10 hours each for 5 MX guys
No defect too big, no defect too small, nothing in the log --- No defect at all !!
 
LMP737
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:46 pm



Quoting Studedave (Reply 9):
Just a few variables would include~~
Aircraft you have (brand new, been around the block, reworked lately?)
Maintainers you have (newbies, old salts, trained?)
Ops you might be up to (working up, standing down. Training, front line?)

Oh so very true. Put more hours and some more cruises on those new F-18E/F and you will see the hours go up. Those lists of flight hours/ maintenance man hours don't tell the whole story.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Venus6971
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:16 pm



Quoting OzTech (Reply 17):
Well, in civillian life, the hours you quote would bankrupt an airline...

Don't forget the hours I qouted are from a govt run operation, I have changed engines with leak and trim checks included in under 6 hours, R2 tires n brakes in 30 minutes but that is what the USAF allows for time accounting.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
OzTech
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:13 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 19):
but that is what the USAF allows for time accounting.

Well.. Mayhaps in the Negative $3 Trilion projected budget defecit, the USAF should take a loooong hard look at these figures  banghead 
No defect too big, no defect too small, nothing in the log --- No defect at all !!
 
kingairta
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:37 pm

You really gotta take mmh/fh with a grain of salt when referencing Naval figueres.

Units skew those numbers in their favor. Speaking from experience turning wrenches for the Navy. Maintenance maning is determined by man-hours. If you log as much man-hours as you can you can get a bump up in personell. If you show you can operate at fewer man-hours then billets are taken away.

It's a flawed system. But with no other metric to judge manning requirements you get what we have now.
 
Flighty
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:08 am

An extra 3 man-hours per flight hour really should not be that big of a deal. We are not talking a huge amount of cost. Per flight hour, some of these jets cost what, $10,000? $30,000? So what's an extra 3 hours, 100 bucks? Not that big a deal.... but military finance always holds many surprises, it seems.
 
usair1489
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:36 pm

I recall F-14 pilots telling me that the F-14, when it retired, required at least 50-60 man hours of mx per hour of flight.
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Moose135
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RE: Fighter Maint. ManHours Per FlightHour Comparison

Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:14 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 19):
Don't forget the hours I qouted are from a govt run operation, I have changed engines with leak and trim checks included in under 6 hours, R2 tires n brakes in 30 minutes but that is what the USAF allows for time accounting.

That's also the same as when you take your car in for repairs - the "book" says it takes 2 hours for a particular job, while an experience mechanic can get it done in much less. Depending on the shop, you may get charged book time or not.
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