Lumberton
Topic Author
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Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:46 am

The want the initial squadron of 18 this year, with up to 90 by 2020.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/..._2009-04-01_00-03-11_N31438992.htm

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Iraq wants to buy an initial squadron of Lockheed Martin Corp F-16 fighter aircraft this year to help guard against perceived threats from Iran and Syria after U.S. forces leave, the head of the Iraqi Air Force told Reuters Tuesday.

Lt. Gen. Anwar Ahmed said he hoped to sign a contract for 18 advanced F-16s as the centerpiece of billions of dollars Iraq is expected to spend on arms in coming years.

"This is very important to us," he said in a telephone interview while visiting Washington. "It is a priority."

Provided funds are made available by Iraq's Parliament, he said his goal was to acquire up to 96 F-16s through 2020. He cited the F-16C/D Block 50/52 models now being produced for Poland, Israel, Greece and Pakistan.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:12 am

From Bird Dogs to Falcons --- they're rather fast. I guess it will be okay as long as no other Saddam comes along and brandishes those against the US and its allies.....

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10385.jpg
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/10385.jpg

The 18 airframes would be a logical follow-up to the KAI T-50 advanced trainers they are eyeing, and would stand up almost a full transition squadron, gradually building up as their pilots hone their skills and gain more proficiency. However, it might be prudent to sell them the lead-in fighter/light combat aircraft version first, until it is well-established where their allegiances truly lie.....

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Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages
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Photo © Kim Jong Hwan


https://www.koreaaero.com/

Whichever way, Lockheed Martin stands to gain a lot, and as this seems to be a sole-source procurement, the Fighting Falcon may well be on the way of another decade of production. And maybe LM won't get in the way of their equipment selection like in South Korea, so NG's SABR or Raytheon's RACR may be specified.....

Quote:
"Korea’s F/A-50 was recently barred from using the Vixen 500E, under an agreement with co-developer Lockheed Martin that did not allow the F/A-50’s capabilities to surpass the ROKAF’s F-16s."

[Edited 2009-03-31 19:16:36]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:42 pm

Why? So they can fly them over to Iran, in the next war?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Spacepope
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:25 pm

Let them fly to Iran. We've converted the last F-4E to a drone, and we're down to RF-4Cs before we get to starting the QF-16A/B conversions. We'll have plenty of practice by then.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
Venus6971
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:10 pm

Are they asking for new builds or A/B's from AMARC? The plane is capable but what type of avionics,radar, weopens software do you load them up with.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Lumberton
Topic Author
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:12 pm

Not A/B's.

Quote:
Provided funds are made available by Iraq's Parliament, he said his goal was to acquire up to 96 F-16s through 2020. He cited the F-16C/D Block 50/52 models now being produced for Poland, Israel, Greece and Pakistan.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Oroka
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 01, 2009 11:17 pm

Even if relations went deep south with Iraq in the future... 90 F-16C/Ds is not going to do much for them in a fire fight. As discussed in the Iran SU-30MKI order thread, 90 vipers in anyones hands are not a particular threat to the US. Israel might be a bit concerned, but considering the caliber of professionalism and skill coming out of the Iraqi military... they would have more to fear from the ground than mixing it up in the air.

The F-16 is not really cutting edge anymore... if anything it is becoming a entry level aircraft, everyone else who can afford it is moving on to the F-35, and if they can manage, the F-22.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:19 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 6):
The F-16 is not really cutting edge anymore... if anything it is becoming a entry level aircraft, everyone else who can afford it is moving on to the F-35, and if they can manage, the F-22.

It is still capable of putting ordnance on target, and will be for the foreseeable future.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
fridgmus
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:17 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Why? So they can fly them over to Iran, in the next war?

I'm not a pilot and I mean no offense or disrespect to the Iraqi Air Force or their pilot candidates, but do they have enough competent personnel to fly these high performance aircraft?

After watching a few IAF C-130 landings at Kirkuk AB and talking with some of the flight instructors there, I dunno.

Maybe others know more?
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
kingairta
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:53 pm

Why should we care about Iraqi pilot competency? It's Iraqs money. Let em spend it. I say go for it. Keeps US jobs.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:42 am



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 8):
I'm not a pilot and I mean no offense or disrespect to the Iraqi Air Force or their pilot candidates, but do they have enough competent personnel to fly these high performance aircraft?

Sure, I think they have probably many intellectually capable individuals. I'm sure there are some Iraqis around the world who might consider returning Iraq to serve in the armed forces there. There are millions of Iraqi's who are attending higher education in Europe and here in the US. Iraq someday could become the next India

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 8):
After watching a few IAF C-130 landings at Kirkuk AB and talking with some of the flight instructors there, I dunno.

Maybe others know more?

I think you could see very soon the USAF training IAF pilot candidates here pretty soon, if they aren't already training them in some sort of capacity like we did with the Saudis and Pakistanis.
Made from jets!
 
fridgmus
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:45 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):

Excellent points Jetjack!  thumbsup 

Once the security situation drastically improves, we leave and the Tribal Militias (yes they are very tribal) are under control, then I would hope all those educated Iraqi's who are overseas would come home to serve in leadership/technical capacities (ex: military officers) and rebuild their country. Time will tell.

I know we train other Nationalities, so why not the Iraqi's? It most certainly would be a better and safer training environment. They would really learn how to "turn & burn" in a high performance jet! Makes sense. And it might also encourage Iraqi expats to come home and serve. I would imagine being a US-trained pilot looks pretty good on a CV!

F
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
kingairta
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 03, 2009 12:09 pm

We are training them.

The US has and currently does send pilots over as their job is to train up pilots and units in the operation of various airframes.
 
Oroka
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:19 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
It is still capable of putting ordnance on target, and will be for the foreseeable future.

So can F-4s, my point being that the F-16 has been dissected by Russia, so any secrets it still contained are not so secret anymore. So if they fly them to Iran, Iran will get airframes, not new secret technology.
 
fridgmus
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:01 am



Quoting KingairTA (Reply 12):

My bad Kingair. What I meant to say was to bring Iraqi Pilot Candidates to the US for training at our bases. A much safer environment for training.

Thanks,

F
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
trex8
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:19 pm

Maybe they should get their electrical grid working before spending a billion $ on fighters. I suspect they need a bunch more choppers and transports too before supersonic fighters, or even MRAPs and sundry less sexy equipment. I would think a bunch of A10s or similar (bring back the Skyraider!) will be far better suited for their near term CAS needs. That way the Shiites will be able to bomb and strafe the Sunni better in their remaining houses when the real civil war starts up!

As long as there is some US military presence in Iraq I doubt the Iraqis need to worry about Iranian planes coming to bomb them and needing F16s to protect themselves. Maybe to protect against Turkish planes, but aren't they supposed to be a NATO ally? Great, a war with F16s on each side, how wonderful!
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Apr 06, 2009 12:55 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 13):
So can F-4s, my point being that the F-16 has been dissected by Russia, so any secrets it still contained are not so secret anymore. So if they fly them to Iran, Iran will get airframes, not new secret technology.

really? the Block 52 is a very advanced version of the F-16 I doubt the Russians have dissected all of the technology on them.

Quoting KingAirTA (Reply 9):
Why should we care about Iraqi pilot competency? It's Iraqs money. Let em spend it. I say go for it. Keeps US jobs.

Because a well trained and equiped Iraqi airforce could be a good ally to the US and its on the Iranian boarder. Thats 2 reasons.
 
cloudy
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:46 am

My guess is that the main purpose of these birds is to deter future insurgencies.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:42 am



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 15):
I would think a bunch of A10s or similar (bring back the Skyraider!) will be far better suited for their near term CAS needs.



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 17):
My guess is that the main purpose of these birds is to deter future insurgencies.

In connection with the above, Iraq had already selected their COIN aircraft.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_AT-6B_Concept_Desert_lg.jpg

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...for-coin-aircraft-03281/#more-3281

Quote:
"Dec 10/08: The US DSCA announces [PDF] Iraq’s formal request to buy 36 AT-6B light attack aircraft. Iraq would become the first customer for this aircraft if a contract is concluded.

Iraq also wants 6 spare PT-6 engines, 10 spare ALE-47 Counter-Measure Dispensing Systems and/or 10 spare AAR-60 Missile Launch Detection Systems, global positioning systems with CMA-4124 GNSSA card, plus tanker support, ferry services, personnel training and training equipment, spare and repair parts, maintenance, support equipment, and other forms of support. The estimated cost is $520 million, which will be finalized once a contract is signed."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Alessandro
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:23 pm

How old are the Mirage pilots nowadays? They where last seen in action in 1991?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Oroka
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:47 pm



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 16):
really? the Block 52 is a very advanced version of the F-16 I doubt the Russians have dissected all of the technology on them.

While true... it still isn't the best on the market. Try suggesting Iraq get F-35s... even allies like Israel would get watered down versions of the F-35 (if they get them). Any F-16 is still inferior to a watered down F-35, so a block 52 F-16 is still 2 steps down from the best. Also, I am pretty sure Russia can match (or come close to) a block 52s hardware, so they might like to have a peek, but they wouldn't gain any real new capacity.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:36 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 20):
While true... it still isn't the best on the market. Try suggesting Iraq get F-35s... even allies like Israel would get watered down versions of the F-35 (if they get them). Any F-16 is still inferior to a watered down F-35, so a block 52 F-16 is still 2 steps down from the best. Also, I am pretty sure Russia can match (or come close to) a block 52s hardware, so they might like to have a peek, but they wouldn't gain any real new capacity.

I am not try to beat a dead horse here, but I was never suggesting that the F-16 block 52 is the best on the market, just that there arent many things that are. A block 52 F-16 in the hands of a US trained Iraqi pilot will be more than a handfull for any of their close neighbors. As far as Israel getting watered down F-35's wont happen Israel has always gotten or at least offered top US equipment the Iraqis wont get it because the US has a long standing agreement with Israel that we would maintain them as the sole military power (so to speak) in the middle east, Iraq will get watered down everything compared to Israel. Actaully Israel's F-16's are more advanced or equal to anything the US has in its inventory along with the F-15I's. So I dont expect the F-35's to be any different.

[Edited 2009-04-09 23:39:46]
 
Oroka
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:28 pm

Israel is not quite the buddy they were in past decades. IIRC, they have let slip a few technologies to China that the probably shouldn't have... that probably annoyed a few people over at the Pentagon. Not to mention the Lavi / J-10 thing. I know everyone denies it, but the J-10 is a close copy of the Lavi (which was paid for by the US). China dosent have a original bone in their collective bodies... there is no way they designed a gen 4.5 fighter on their own.
 
texl1649
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:35 pm

Iraq doesn't need the best of the best for air dominance. All they have to worry about are (a) insurgents and (b) Iran. The AT-6B's with sidewinders might work vs. Iran.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 10, 2009 8:20 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 22):
Israel is not quite the buddy they were in past decades. IIRC, they have let slip a few technologies to China that the probably shouldn't have... that probably annoyed a few people over at the Pentagon. Not to mention the Lavi / J-10 thing. I know everyone denies it, but the J-10 is a close copy of the Lavi (which was paid for by the US). China dosent have a original bone in their collective bodies... there is no way they designed a gen 4.5 fighter on their own.

Wont argue that your right the J-10 is a Lavi/F-16 (from pakistan) copy. But that has never stopped our congress from approving it before. I never said I was in favor of it just with the lobbying power Israel has in our congress they will receive the top of the line F-35 wether we like it or not.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 23):
Iraq doesn't need the best of the best for air dominance. All they have to worry about are (a) insurgents and (b) Iran. The AT-6B's with sidewinders might work vs. Iran.

And Syria, but your right they dont need top of the line for either country, some used F-16's would suite them well.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:59 pm



Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 24):
Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 23):
Iraq doesn't need the best of the best for air dominance. All they have to worry about are (a) insurgents and (b) Iran. The AT-6B's with sidewinders might work vs. Iran.

And Syria, but your right they dont need top of the line for either country, some used F-16's would suite them well.

Don't forget the MiG-29M2s and MiG-31s they were "supposed" to be getting.....

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Photo © Dmitriy Pichugin - Russian AviaPhoto Team



http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_MiG-31E_lg.jpg
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_MiG-31E_lg.jpg

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...mig31s-mig35s-for-1-billion-03391/

Quote:
"In June 2007, Russian newspapers claimed that Russia had begun delivering 5 MiG-31E Foxhound aircraft to Syria, under a deal that was reportedly negotiated in autumn 2006. The Russian newspaper Kommersant added that:

'...a lot of MiG-29M/M2 jets was sold to Syria as well. They are being sold abroad for the first time and are similar in their technical specifications to the MiG-35 model Russia is now offering India. The total value of the contract for the MiG-31 and MiG-29M/M2 aircraft is estimated at $1 billion.'"


AT-6Bs would be chicken fodder against those!
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:56 pm

Come to think of it, AT-6Bs will have trouble even with these....

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Photo © Mohammad Razzazan - Iranian Spotters
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Photo © Mehdy - Iranian Spotters


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Photo © Mohammad Razzazan - Iranian Spotters



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Photo © Max Bryansky - Russian AviaPhoto Team



[Edited 2009-04-11 06:19:16]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
texl1649
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:00 pm

My statement was intended as a bit of hyperbole but in all seriousness (a) the prospect of Syrian intrusion into Iraqi airspace is pretty silly (and the Mig 31 is an interceptor, not an attacker), and (b) notice that the gear is down on all those F-5's etc.

I'd note that the Iranians have a tough time fielding ANY quality pilots, at present, so any potential gear they do or don't get in the future might be moot in any case. Low-grade maintenance, low-grade training, and inadequate fuel for flight hours make the Iranian threat laughable much more so than the type of gear they operate/own.

http://iagblog.blogspot.com/2009/03/iranian-su24-crash.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10346431/
 
gsosbee
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:31 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 6):
and if they can manage, the F-22

Not likely to receive an export license in anyones' lifetime.
 
Oroka
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:25 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 28):
Not likely to receive an export license in anyones' lifetime.

Now that they want to end the line at 189 airframes... I think they may become more lenient about exporting the F-22. Maybe just to a select few close allies (UK, Japan, Australia). Remember, it is a new administraion who seem quite intent on smoothing things over with friends and even some enemies (Iran). Also, 40-60-80 more F-22s flying is better than just 186, even if they are in service of allied forces.

Really, I don't see why they wont export the F-22. The F-22 airframe itself is not overly special, a SU-30MKI can handle it in air-to-air dogfighting, it is the RAM, avionics, radar, and engines that make the F-22 special. The F-35 will be exported in large numbers, and the F-35s guts are based on the F-22. Why not put some exportable F-35 avionics and radar in a F-22 airframe, call it the F-22B and sell it to some buddies?

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 24):
I never said I was in favor of it just with the lobbying power Israel has in our congress they will receive the top of the line F-35 wether we like it or not.

True, but still, they get a lot less aid than they used to, and all that high end tech they got was back in the 70s and 80s. Yeah, they got their F-16Is, but they also rely fairly heavily on Israel gear... Israel in itself is becoming quite the hardware supplier. Actually, IIRC, one of the issues with Israel getting the F-35 is that they want to put their own gear in it, and the Pentagon obviously doesn't like the idea of other countries customizing the F-35 (ie the UK F-35 deal nearly falling through because they wouldn't have access to the source code for the computers).
 
Acheron
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:51 pm



Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 27):
'd note that the Iranians have a tough time fielding ANY quality pilots, at present, so any potential gear they do or don't get in the future might be moot in any case. Low-grade maintenance, low-grade training, and inadequate fuel for flight hours make the Iranian threat laughable much more so than the type of gear they operate/own.

And you know this because of two news articles, about accident a few years apart?.
As far as I know, the USAF has had far more accidents in the time span between those two, so I guess thats a sign of the USAF low-grade training and maintenance.  Yeah sure

Anyway, I guess you are doing Iran a favor by understimating them and the threat they might represent.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:59 pm



Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 27):
My statement was intended as a bit of hyperbole

If you say so - it seemed pretty serious.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 27):
but in all seriousness (a) the prospect of Syrian intrusion into Iraqi airspace is pretty silly

The scenario doesn't involve Syria only.....

Quote:
"The paper added that the deal is being financed by Iran as a back-door purchase. Russia sort-of denied the sale, but careful reading raised doubts."

The adversary would not advance while they still have the coalition umbrella. And they had been at each other's throat before.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 27):
(and the Mig 31 is an interceptor, not an attacker)

All the more reason an enemy should be wary - if it could intercept cruise missiles, so could it down hostile aircraft - even with the watered-down export version.....

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Photo © Usachev Pavel - Russian AviaPhoto Team


Quote:
"Aeronautics.RU described the MiG-31E variant as:

'Export version of basic Type 01. Prototype (‘903’) first noted 1997; simplified systems, no active jammer, downgraded IFF, radar and DASS. Offered to China, India and other countries.'

[.....]

MiG-31s could also step into the ‘fighter AWACS’ role that has been played to date by Iran’s dwindling but ingeniously maintained fleet of F-14A Tomcat fighters. This would be only marginally useful against a full American offensive, but could make a big difference to Iran’s ability to cover limited targets – such as an Israeli strike on its nuclear bomb-making facilities."


Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 27):
(b) notice that the gear is down on all those F-5's etc.

AFAIK, most aircraft are that way immediately after takeoff or just before landing  Smile so I give them the benefit of doubt.

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 27):
I'd note that the Iranians have a tough time fielding ANY quality pilots, at present, so any potential gear they do or don't get in the future might be moot in any case. Low-grade maintenance, low-grade training, and inadequate fuel for flight hours make the Iranian threat laughable much more so than the type of gear they operate/own.

If they could afford brand-new (refurbished?) fighters, paying for crew training and maintenance would be a relatively lesser expense. There must be plenty of full-pledged aviators and skilled technicians made redundant by the dissolution of the former Soviet Union willing to moonlight in the Islamic Republic for hard currency. And I'd venture that people would know a thing or two about processing JP-4 and JP-5 in a country where gas sells for cents to a gallon! And last but not least.....

Quote:
"As for the MiG-29, Syria already flies earlier versions. So does Iran, thanks to the Iraqi Air Force who fled to 'safe haven' in Iran during the 1991 Gulf War. The aircraft has a poor combat record, in part because early variants, that were not fully equipped, were used in scenarios that were extremely lopsided from the outset in all respects.

When used on more even terms, however, German pilots who flew East Germany’s older MiG-29As against NATO F-16s and other jets believed that the planes were nearly unbeatable in short-range dogfights when armed with Russia’s AA-11/R-73 'Archer' short range missiles and helmet-mounted display systems."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
texl1649
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:10 pm

Iranian exports have been shriveling due to the collapse of production capacity. They've rationed consumption for years, and actually import substantial gasoline.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Iran/Oil.html

The Mig-29 has always been a magnificent aircraft and a fabulous air show performer, and to my knowledge none have ever actually shot down an American built tactical aircraft due to the reasons I cited; tactics, and training.

Lastly, the Soviet Union dissolved nearly 20 years ago now. Any pilot/crews they had which were properly trained/current at that time are, today, doing something else or are not likely to be very current. Nuclear engineering know-how is one thing to maintain, but an ability to go build and field a competent offensive air force is not something that just sits idle for 20 years. The Iranians can barely maintain C-130's today, or take off and land in older build Russian gear, and F-14's/F-5's. In my judgment they are not a threat in any way to Iraqi sovereign skies.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:54 am

I'm not in any way qualified to make an informed assessment of their talents and skills, but from the helo thread, it seems they and the Iraqis are quite evenly matched.....

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 6):
Not only have I flown with Iraqi helicopter pilots.... I've helped train them. And it was a futile enterprise. They suck.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/104959/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:55 am



Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 32):
Iranian exports have been shriveling due to the collapse of production capacity. They've rationed consumption for years, and actually import substantial gasoline.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Iran/Oil.html

The Mig-29 has always been a magnificent aircraft and a fabulous air show performer, and to my knowledge none have ever actually shot down an American built tactical aircraft due to the reasons I cited; tactics, and training.

Lastly, the Soviet Union dissolved nearly 20 years ago now. Any pilot/crews they had which were properly trained/current at that time are, today, doing something else or are not likely to be very current. Nuclear engineering know-how is one thing to maintain, but an ability to go build and field a competent offensive air force is not something that just sits idle for 20 years. The Iranians can barely maintain C-130's today, or take off and land in older build Russian gear, and F-14's/F-5's. In my judgment they are not a threat in any way to Iraqi sovereign skies.

I would not dismiss the Iranians so lightly. The last time the Iraqi's went up against the Iranians, the Iraqi's got a bloody nose against a supposedly inferior in quality and training force.
 
bennett123
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:00 pm

UH60FtRucker

So what is wrong with Iraqi pilots?
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:39 am

An update as the withdrawal date looms.....

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-16Ds_Greece_Break_lg.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...ges/AIR_F-16Ds_Greece_Break_lg.jpg

Quote:
"Aug 2/10: The Government of Iraq has signed an agreement with the U.S. for 10 Iraqi Air Force pilots to begin prerequisite F-16 training. 'This agreement follows the request submitted by the GoI to purchase 18 new Block 52 F-16 airplanes.'

The pilots are projected to begin training in the U.S. this fall, and upon graduation, these pilots will have completed all prerequisite flight training necessary to move immediately into F-16 training. The 12-17 month program will include all necessary components of T-6A Texan II and T-38 Talon training, including a course called Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals. The intensive flight training will be complemented with specialized English language training for aviation. Pentagon DVIDS.

April 9/10: AHN quotes General Nasier A. Abadi, the Deputy Chief of Staff of the Iraqi Joint Forces:

'On the building of the Iraqi military forces, the general said the need of today is to build 'Airforce' strength as till now most of the budget went to building army which has now '14 divisions.' From now on, '70% of the budget will go to Airforce,' he noted.

Although the Iraqi government will need at least 'three sources (quotations),' for Airforce procurements, the general explained that there is a 'special deal with the U.S. over the supply of F-16 fighter jets,' with a plan to partner with F-16 squadrons based in Iraq to 'train' Iraqi pilots."


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Iraq-Seeks-F-16-Fighters-05057/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Devilfish
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:04 am

And now, the latest on the hardware.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...eks-F-16-Fighters-05057/#more-5057

Quote:
"The US DSCA announces [PDF] Iraq's formal request to buy 18 'F-16IQ' fighters and assorted weapons, at a cost of up to $4.2 billion. Items requested show a pattern of slight downgrades, alongside advanced base systems. The net effect seems cleverly calibrated to give Iraq an air defense force that can handle aging threats from Syria or Iran relatively well, and perform strike missions within Iraq, without being a serious threat to more advanced air forces in the region. Regional memories among its Arab neighbors, as well as Israeli concerns, make that a smart starting point. Upgrades can always take place later, and the F-16IQs have at least some of the equipment required to handle more advanced weapons."

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-16s_USAF_Iraq_lg.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co.../images/AIR_F-16s_USAF_Iraq_lg.jpg
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 8):
I'm not a pilot and I mean no offense or disrespect to the Iraqi Air Force or their pilot candidates, but do they have enough competent personnel to fly these high performance aircraft?

Too much airplane too soon! When I first read this thread, the first thought that came to mind was what the German Luftwaffe experienced when it made the transition from Sabres to Super Starfighters. History does, sadly, repeat itself though and we may see Iraq experience something similar to what the Germans did with the F-104.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
trex8
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sun Sep 26, 2010 7:43 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 38):
Too much airplane too soon! When I first read this thread, the first thought that came to mind was what the German Luftwaffe experienced when it made the transition from Sabres to Super Starfighters. History does, sadly, repeat itself though and we may see Iraq experience something similar to what the Germans did with the F-104.

The issue with the Germans probably had more to do with their training in the clear skies of New Mexico and Arizona and then having to fly operationally in that yucky weather over most of northern Europe!
 
LegRoomPlease
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:36 am

BTW just a thought. What exactly is in place to stop a disgruntled Iraqi pilot from taking his, for Iran technically cutting edge, jet and defecting?
I am sure that Iran would have no trouble in rewarding him and getting his family out of Iraq would not pose a great challenge if you take into account the state of Iraqi security forces and the degree to which the Mahdi army seem to be doing their own thing.
 
trex8
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Sun Sep 26, 2010 3:48 pm

Quoting LegRoomPlease (Reply 40):
BTW just a thought. What exactly is in place to stop a disgruntled Iraqi pilot from taking his, for Iran technically cutting edge, jet and defecting?

Well if they only hire sunni pilots you wouldn't need to worry about any defections to iran!
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:04 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 6):
Iran SU-30MKI order thread,

Given the current sanctions I think its safe to say Iran wont get a gattling gun - leave alone fighters from anyone any-time soon. Even prior to this the last major Russian fighter sale to Iran was way back in 92-93 and even the now aborted S-300 deliveries were held up for 10+ years.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Why? So they can fly them over to Iran, in the next war?

Anyway this technology is thoroughly compromised - It is safe to assume that any technology given to Chinese client states like Pakistan has already been compromised .... as has technology that has been indirectly given to Pakistan via KSA and UAEAF (since they hire large numbers of Pakistani contract pilots - by some estimates 70% of their fighter core) ............ This basically means that All F-16s up-to the Block 50/52 are directly compromised - and that the Chinese have a very good understanding of the capabilities of the Mirage 2000-9, F-15E(S), F-16E (Block 60) and Eurofighter Typhoon.


By comparison a basic C/D model sale can hardly constitute a breach.


Since the current shia government is basically a puppet controlled by the ayatollahs in Qom and the IRGC in Tehran - i dont think we'll even have to wait for a war for these to be flown across the border.

Me thinks the day the final US battalion steps off Iraqi soil - we'll witness a grand cross border flypast

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
It is still capable of putting ordnance on target, and will be for the foreseeable future.

So are Mig-17, 19s, Canberra bombers, and gloster meteors.......................... that doesn't mean one has to factor them as seriously - especially given the sophistication of electronic warfare these days.

Remember the Syrian reactor strike by Israel (last year?) ? They used a suter like computer attack programme not just to fool Syria's Russian supplied Pantsyr and TOR-M systems - but also US supplied Turkish radars and fighters - especially given that the areas of Turkey flown over have a heavy military deployment owing to the Kurdish majority of that region.

If Israel can fool US made equipment sold to a NATO ally - I think its safe to assume they can fool and equipment sold to a second rung ally.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 8):
but do they have enough competent personnel to fly these high performance aircraft?

Simple answer - NO - emphatically NO!!!!

ever since Rumsfeld- Paul Bremers extremely ill-advised disbandment of the Iraqi military and ba'ath party - the old sunni dominated army - went underground and is dead set against the new shia dominated government.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):
Sure, I think they have probably many intellectually capable individuals. I'm sure there are some Iraqis around the world who might consider returning Iraq to serve in the armed forces there.
Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):
There are millions of Iraqi's who are attending higher education in Europe and here in the US.

Again no disrespect meant - but in this case there is much truth to John Kerrys remarks during his failed presidential bid "Study hard and get good marks or you'll be drafted off to Iraq".

Tell me what makes you think that Iraqi families who can afford or have scraped enough to put their children through an exorbitantly costly US college education would allow them to go off to serve in the military? they will probably return for a lot of reasons - but serving in the military will most certainly not be one of them. ................... especially given that the army was the primary tool of terror and repression.........and was the primary reason most of them left Iraq in the first place.

Since all top doctors, academics, scientists, and military people - had to - compulsorily - be part of the Ba'ath party - its is safe to assume that till the laws preventing former Ba'ath officials from joining the government are revoked - the old core of intellectual/entrepreneurial/military capital cannot return to the fold even if they want to.




Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 10):
Iraq someday could become the next India

Before 1990 Iraq was way ahead of India in virtually every human development indices - per capita income/ infant mortality..... you name it. Iraq was also the only country in the ME outside of Israel to have an indigenous health care system comparable to any in the first world.................... and more per capita research output that the entire Indian sub-continent put together.

But since the de-baathification order of 2004 if anyone expects these people to come back and work without rancour / agenda / bitterness - dream on - especially given that these former intellectuals now form the core of the sunni resistance/Al-Qaeda.


Forget India - it'll be a miracle if they manage to catch up with Rwanda any-time soon.
Vi veri universum vivus vici
 
LegRoomPlease
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:16 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):

My apologies for that on UH60. Just noticed.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:25 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 42):
Anyway this technology is thoroughly compromised

Where did I say anything about compromising the technology?   

I said they'll fly them over to Iran. ~20 F-16 Block 50s to Iran would be a major addition to their fleet. It would be a significant development, thus it should be a significant concern. Do you agree?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:27 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Thread starter):
Iraq wants to buy an initial squadron of Lockheed Martin Corp F-16 fighter aircraft this year to help guard against perceived threats from Iran and Syria after U.S. forces leave, the head of the Iraqi Air Force told Reuters Tuesday.

Isn't that convenient. And there was me thinking they might go for Mig-29/SU-27 as they historically have experience with these ex-Soviet aircraft..................or even cheap Mirage/Rafales....oh yeah the Fench..........


Getting past my cynicism and on a more on-topic point would they not be better to move
from AT-6Bs to Hawks* then F-16s?

Or what about the ex-Luftwaffe F-4s? I am merely considering the difficulties in 'standing up' a modern airforce.

*Substitute a more appropriate 'basic' jet aircraft if you want
 
Lumberton
Topic Author
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:56 pm

Iraq offered new F-16s with older missiles

Quote:
The US government is offering Baghdad a model of the F-16 that would not include latest-generation missiles, such as the Raytheon AIM-120D AMRAAM and AIM-9X Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, or an active electronically scanned array radar.

Instead, Iraq would be offered the Raytheon AIM-9L/M-8/9 Sidewinder short-range missile, AIM-7M-F1/H Sparrow medium-range missile and AGM-65D/G/H/K Maverick air-to-ground missile.

The USA also would allow Northrop Grumman to supply the mechanically-scanned APG-68(V)9 radar.

The F-16s also would come with an array of electronic warfare, reconnaissance and targeting systems. The jets could be powered by either General Electric F110-129 or Pratt & Whitney F100-229 engines.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:32 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 30):
And you know this because of two news articles, about accident a few years apart?.

I think there's a lot more to fit the pattern

1) Most of the superbly trained Shah Era pilots were purged from the AF after the revolution - since Af pilots mostly came from rich affluent traditional martial/feudal families - with close ties to the monarchy. About 70% of them were executed

2) Note how thoroughly inadequate their performance was in the Iran-Iraq war - in spite of significantly superior equipment they failed to ever decisively defeat the poorly trained and inferior equipped Iraqi Air force. Moreover - despite their admirable start - they progressively got more and more ineffective to the point they were completely unable to change the course of the 87-88 Iraqi counter-offensive that ended the war.

3) They failed miserably during the Iran-Iraq war the break the US Naval Blockade of Iran (technically "ensuring freedom of the seas" was the Jargon the US used - but in reality it was a naval blockade directed against Tehran)

4) Most importantly they simply don't have access to any post70s era technology aircraft...... against an oil rich region armed with late 90's and early 2000's tech aircraft.


5) Following the decimation of of Imperial air force officer core - it is highly likely that a whole body of knowledge, expertise and experience was lost............................ the most obvious indicator of this that can be seen in public is the stagnant-retarded techno-industrial capabilities that are visible to naked eye in the civilian sectors of iran like ONG, construction, industrial output etc etc..................................................

as a simple example - Iran that once had an aggressive refinery building programme now has great difficult refining (value adding) to the crude it produces - with resultant shortages of several crude derivatives. The knowledge and resource pool that once existed along with the industrial fabrication technologies have all decayed.

Exporting crude is fine for fat indolent Arab countries where basically everyone receives an oil subsidised dole for no/very little work....... but for a human resource rich country the lack of value addition to a raw materiel represents significant loss of revenue, lack of employment, lack of entrepreneurship, dwindling business opportunities etc etc with all the accompanying social problems.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 44):
Where did I say anything about compromising the technology?
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 44):
Do you agree?

You didn't - i added that as a natural consequence of Iran acquiring these planes.

And yes I agree it will be a major headache since the capabilities our Persian gulf littoral allies have built up over the last 20 years will be compromised in the space of weeks...... but will they be a game changer? no ......... just a major league nuisance.

China obviously already knows exactly what a block 52 can do - and probably already knows how to deal with it.... this will just mean Iran/Syria/Hezbollah/Hamas will also get to know this within a few years.
Vi veri universum vivus vici
 
AirRyan
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:06 pm

Seriously offered them Sparrow missiles? What a joke, go buy something from France or Russia, Iraq. But then again, so to is it a joke to sell high tech military aircraft to Saudi Arabia, a country with questionable ties to terrorism and who has an even worse human rights record than China. I'm still waiting on Iraq to donate to the US about a trillion dollars worth of oil, why should the US taxpayer have to foot the bill for Iraq's new lease on life?
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Iraqi Air Force Wants Up To 90 F-16s

Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:31 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 6):
The F-16 is not really cutting edge anymore... if anything it is becoming a entry level aircraft, everyone else who can afford it is moving on to the F-35, and if they can manage, the F-22.

Thats a bold statement about the F-16 not being cutting edge anymore. The block 52's and higher are very advanced aircraft.

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