ThePointblank
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Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:30 am

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Quote:
Boeing Receives $1.15B Contract for 15 Canadian Chinooks, Announces Matching Reinvestment in Industry

HALIFAX, Nova Scotia, Aug. 10 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] today announced that it has received a US$1.15 billion contract from the Canadian government for 15 new CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopters. Under the contract, Boeing will match Canada's purchase price by executing contracts and investments of equal value with Canadian industry.

Designated the CH-147 in Canada, the Chinooks have been contracted to meet Canada's Medium-to-Heavy Lift Helicopter program requirements. They will be produced at the Boeing Rotorcraft Systems facility in Ridley Township, Pa., with deliveries expected to occur between 2013 and 2014.

Speaking today at an event hosted by the ministries of Defence and Industry at the I.M.P. Aerospace facility in Halifax, Jack Dougherty, Boeing vice president, H-47 Programs, said, "Boeing is extremely pleased that Canada has selected the CH-147 Chinook, the world's leading tandem-rotor helicopter, to modernize its defense forces' airlift fleet.

"This is also great news for Canadian troops," Dougherty added. "They are a national treasure, because they not only place themselves in defense of Canada, but also are the heroes who are called on in every manner of civil emergency."

The ceremony also included remarks from the Honorable Peter MacKay, Canada's Minister of National Defence and Minister for the Atlantic Gateway.

"This contract is key in ensuring the Canadian Forces are a first-class, modern, flexible force capable of defending Canada and the Canadian interest for years to come," MacKay said. "This helicopter will give Canada's military a robust capability with the ability to operate in remote and isolated areas, and increase their capacity to respond to disasters both at home and abroad."

In line with Canada's Industrial & Regional Benefits policy, Boeing will match every dollar spent by the Canadian government in acquiring its CH-147 fleet by partnering with and issuing contracts to companies in Canada. These opportunities will result in long-term, high-value jobs for Canadians and build on the long-standing partnership between Boeing and Canadian industry. Contracts worth in excess of $500 million have been signed against this commitment and are being implemented by companies across Canada.

"This is a win-win for Canada and The Boeing Company," said Mark Kronenberg, vice president of International Business Development for Boeing Integrated Defense Systems. "Boeing seeks to partner with the very best of industry, and as a result, we continue to make a significant commitment to Canadian industry. This new contract has created opportunities for new partnerships to further grow our already large supplier base in Canada."

Along with the reinvestments Boeing will make as part of the delivery contract, the company could provide additional industry benefits in excess of $2 billion over 20 years for in-service support of the CH-147 fleet. The performance-based in-service support could include aircraft maintenance training systems and services, engineering support, supply chain management, and other expertise.

The CH-147, which will be modified to meet Canada's operational environment, will be powered by two 4,733-horsepower Honeywell engines and feature extended-range capabilities. It will be able to transport more than 21,000 pounds (9,525 kg) of cargo.

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is one of the world's largest space and defense businesses specializing in innovative and capabilities-driven customer solutions, and the world's largest and most versatile manufacturer of military aircraft. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is a $32 billion business with 70,000 employees worldwide.

###

Contact:

Hal Klopper
International Rotorcraft Communications
Office: 480-891-5519
Mobile: 602-391-7489
hal.g.klopper@boeing.com

Amy Horton
Supplier Management and Industrial Participation Communications
Office: 314-233-4368
Mobile: 314-705-0283
amy.e.horton@boeing.com

 
L-188
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:42 am

Good,

They have been short on heavy lift since they got rid of the last Chinooks, what 10-15 years ago.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
steman
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:13 am

I didn´t know Canada got rid of their original Chinook.
Why was that?
Which model did they operate? I thought it was CH-47D, which are still in widespread use all over the world.
What have they been using so far as transport helicopters?

I really like the tandem rotor helicopters, I think they are an intelligent way to apply vertical lift,
with all the power available going to lifting rotors and no power spent for anti torque systems.

Italy has recently ordered 16 CH-47F (designated ICH-47F by Boeing and AgustaWestland) and the Italian Army still has some 20 older CH-47C+ (equivalent to D model) in service.
Who else in Europe uses the Chinook?
I know the RAF (with the rather embarassing HC.3 affaire), the Netherlands and probably Spain.

Ciao

Stefano
 
connies4ever
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:56 am



Quoting Steman (Reply 2):
I didn´t know Canada got rid of their original Chinook.
Why was that?
Which model did they operate? I thought it was CH-47D, which are still in widespread use all over the world.

I believe it simply didn't fit with what the pols in Ottawa saw as the future of the CF back in the early 90s: basically a gendarmerie, not really an army. There were plans to scrap the Leopard tanks as well, but those have been changed. So the CH-47Ds (I believe) were sold to the Dutch.

Recently 6 used CH-47Ds were acquired from US Army stocks and pressed into service in Afganisatan, along with 8 Griffins (1 since w/o) and I believe 8 leased Mil Mi-8s.

Ironically,given current statements, the CH-47Fs will be delivered about the time the CF start withdrawing from their combat role in Afghanistan. In all honesty, I don't see us pulling out in 2011, I think we'll be there for quite some time.
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ThePointblank
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:06 pm



Quoting Steman (Reply 2):
Which model did they operate? I thought it was CH-47D, which are still in widespread use all over the world.

We had 8 CH-47C's (well, we had one crash during delivery, and got a replacement, which was a CH-47D modified back to the C standard). We then sold the lot to the Dutch, then fast forward to a year ago and purchased 6 CH-47D's from the US Army, and now, 15 brand new F model's.
 
GDB
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Tue Aug 11, 2009 6:12 pm

Also notable that C-17 deliveries had allowed the Canadian forces much greater independence of operation recently.
That is, not having to ask the USAF.

Good to see them getting the kit these most professional of forces deserve.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:30 pm

Will they also use some of these CH-147s with the Canadian Coast Guard? Or does the CCG have enough helios right now?
 
Oroka
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:27 am

I'm pretty sure the CH-147s are solely for Army use. The CH-149 Cormorants are doing a good job with the SAR duties (one mission involved a 1200km round trip, refueling twice at sea at the Hibernia oil platform!). One was lost to pilot... error, but really it was inadequate training with the auto-pilot.

The CCG got the 15 they were promised back in the 90s... so they should be happy. I'm sure they would love another 100 airframes... what unit wouldn't?


I'm glad to hear they finally firmed up this order for the CH-147Fs. I somehow doubt the Army will keep the CH-147Ds once the Fs are in the inventory.

You can say a lot about the Progressive Conservatives, but they have been really good to the CAF.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:50 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 7):
I'm pretty sure the CH-147s are solely for Army use. The CH-149 Cormorants are doing a good job with the SAR duties (one mission involved a 1200km round trip, refueling twice at sea at the Hibernia oil platform!). One was lost to pilot... error, but really it was inadequate training with the auto-pilot.

Once again Canada cheaped out on the order for the Cormorants, as no simulator was purchased. Pilot training involves a trip to RNAS Yeovilton to udse their simulator, plus hands-on in the actual a/c. A simulator would have been an efficient way to bring new crew up to speed on procedures and keep existing crew sharp.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
steman
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:08 am

If it´s not too OT,
what´s the current Helicopter fleet in the CAF?
I know the Cormorant for SAR duties, the CH-147 as in the discussion above,
then what else?
I don´t know the Canadian designation but I think there must be Bell 412 and Sikorsky S-92 in service or on order.
Are Sea Kings still in service?
Any other model?

Thanks
 
connies4ever
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:04 am



Quoting Steman (Reply 9):
If it´s not too OT,
what´s the current Helicopter fleet in the CAF?

Here's a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_Air_Command#Aircraft
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WrenchBender
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:01 pm



Quoting Steman (Reply 9):
If it´s not too OT,
what´s the current Helicopter fleet in the CAF?

85x CH146 Griffon UTTH & SAR (Bell 412)
14x CH149 Cormorant SAR (EH101)
29x CH124 Sea King ASW (Sikorsky H3)
14x CH139 Jet Ranger (Bell 206) Primary Heli Flt training Operated as civ registered
12x CH146 Griffon (412) Civilianized for Helicopter training also civ registered
6x CH147 Chinook MTTH (Boeing CH47D)* a kind of lend lease from the US Army til the new buy arrives.
On Order:
25x CH148 Cyclone (Sikorsky SH92) Who knows when, going the way of the A400.
15x CH147 Chinook (Boeing CH47F)

Quoting Oroka (Reply 7):
The CCG got the 15 they were promised back in the 90s...

The CCG (Dept of Fish and Ships) operates Bell 206's, 212's, and MBB 105's. THEY DO NOT and NEVER HAVE operated dedicated SAR aircraft that is a role of the Canadian Forces. The CF did indeeed recieve 15 CH 149 Cormorant a/c.

Quoting Steman (Reply 2):
I didn´t know Canada got rid of their original Chinook.
Why was that?
Which model did they operate?

At the time the forward thinking was 1 a/c in 3 roles, that a/c being the "Cadillac" EH101. It was to replace the CH124 Sea King for ASW/Maritime role, the CH113/113A Labrador/Voyageur in the SAR role and the CH147 Chinook (Super C, C model with some D model upgrades) in the MTTH role. 1 common supply chain for all 3 fleets with some minor exceptions. 1 Common training cadre for all 3 fleets including simulators for maintenance and operators. Politics and budget cutbacks saw this dwindle to just replace the 124 and 113's as army aviation got 100x 412's in a backhanded deal with Bell to replace the Twin Huey's and Kiowa's. Then the PM killed the contract for the EH101. Eventually a minimized 101 was procured for the SAR world.

WrenchBender
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TheCol
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:15 am

20 would have been a little more useful, but it would have probably caused a stir in the House.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
sphealey
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:21 pm

> In line with Canada's Industrial & Regional Benefits
> policy, Boeing will match every dollar spent by the
> Canadian government in acquiring its CH-147 fleet
> by partnering with and issuing contracts to companies in Canada.

Can someone explain the economics of these types of deals, which are quite typical in military sales announcements? As written, Boeing has promised to spend in Canada a dollar amount equal to the purchase price. Not every component and hour of labor will come from Canada, and Boeing has to make a profit somewhere. There must be a cash transfer or subsidy which is not apparent on the surface. Where does it occur?

sPh
 
trex8
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:35 pm



Quoting Sphealey (Reply 13):
Can someone explain the economics of these types of deals, which are quite typical in military sales announcements? As written, Boeing has promised to spend in Canada a dollar amount equal to the purchase price. Not every component and hour of labor will come from Canada, and Boeing has to make a profit somewhere. There must be a cash transfer or subsidy which is not apparent on the surface. Where does it occur?

industrial offsets usually require the OEM to spend x amount in the customer nation, it doesn't necessarily have to be for aerospace products, it can be for anything, beach slippers to fish have been involved in other contracts with other nations. the OEM just has to direct a certain amount of contracts to the customer so the customer nations economy "hasn't lost out"

only 100%?? my my the Canadians are slacking, most NATO countries and Oz etc require greater than 100% offsets for some contracts!
 
sphealey
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:07 pm

> only 100%?? my my the Canadians are slacking, most
> NATO countries and Oz etc require greater than 100%
> offsets for some contracts!

Sure, but that just restates the question I asked: where does the money come from for the contractor's profit? And in cases where the offset is greater than 100% of the contract value, where does the money come from for the excess amount PLUS the contractor's profit?

I suppose that Boeing could buy $100 million of Canadian fish and resell it for $105 million, say, but that is an incredibly chancy proposition for a board of directors to sign off on.

sPh
 
trex8
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:24 pm

its a seperate issue to whether its directly profitable. if you come and buy a CH47 from Boeing they will try buy the same value of goods from your country or somehow spend the same amount, maybe for the same product so maybe these CH47s will have more Canadian parts than previous ones and all future CH47s delivered will have more Canadian sourced parts, maybe for another program Boeing has for other customers - egBombardier could get a billion $ contract to supply the doors, flaps for every Boeing widebody for the next decade for example - or Boeing will just somehow entice another company to buy something from Canada. Boeing has a relationship with some firm in WA which needs a billion $ worth of Canadian lumbar or supply all the heating oil/gas for Boeing plants for instance.Technology transfer may also be part of the offset, Boeing showing some Canadian company some new manufacturing process may be considered of X value of this offset. Boeing per se does not have to spend the money in Canada, though often that is the case, they just have to direct that amount of economic activity to the Canadians.
The AFL CIO are not happy with offsets especially when they are 100% or more for obvious reasons because the OEM may make a profit on the sale of the particular product but the US economy as a whole may lose even more value.
 
Oroka
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:11 am



Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 11):
The CCG (Dept of Fish and Ships) operates Bell 206's, 212's, and MBB 105's. THEY DO NOT and NEVER HAVE operated dedicated SAR aircraft that is a role of the Canadian Forces. The CF did indeeed recieve 15 CH 149 Cormorant a/c.

Sorry, I stand corrected. For some reason I keep associating the SAR sqns with the Coast Guard...  Confused
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:56 am



Quoting Oroka (Reply 17):
Sorry, I stand corrected. For some reason I keep associating the SAR sqns with the Coast Guard...

A lot of people do and it is extremely frustrating to members of the CF who serve/served in those Squadrons to see the Coast Guard get credit for their work.

WrenchBender
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ThePointblank
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RE: Canada Buys 15 CH-47 Chinooks

Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:00 am

The first F Chinook flies for Canada:
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=2336

Quote:
RIDLEY TOWNSHIP, Pa., July 11, 2012 -- The new Boeing [NYSE: BA] CH-147F Medium-to-Heavy-Lift Helicopter for Canada is progressing ahead of schedule after making its first flight on June 24.

"Boeing and the Canadian Department of National Defence are focused on delivering the next generation of advanced vertical-lift aircraft to meet the needs of the Canadian military today and well into the future," said Leanne Caret, Boeing Vertical Lift vice president and H-47 Programs manager.
http://boeing.mediaroom.com/file.php/86627/MPF12-0064_0206_CanadaChinook_1stflight.jpg

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