chuchoteur
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:53 pm

http://www.liberation.fr/monde/01015...gocier-l-achat-de-36-avions-rafale

(in french)

Brazil will start negociations for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft, in exchange for an order of 12 Embraer military transport aircraft, and unprecedented technology transfer.
 
BlueSky1976
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:08 pm

So does it mean that France will get 12 C-390s?
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johns624
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:13 pm

I wonder what Argentina, Chile and Colombia will do now? They have to keep up with the Joneses...
 
allegro
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:25 pm

WOW!!

Congratulations to Dassault for getting a much needed sale!
Flown on: DC-3, DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, MD-90, 707, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, A300, A310, A320, A330,
 
Acheron
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:10 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 2):
I wonder what Argentina, Chile and Colombia will do now? They have to keep up with the Joneses...

Chile already have what they need. If anything, their next fighter will either be the Typhoon of the Eagle, but that will happen after 2015 at the earliest.

Colombia will probably stay with the Kfirs and hope that if things go down the shitter, the US will come out and defend them from everything.

Argentina will do nothing, other than probably buying used Mirage F-1 from the Jordan Air Force.
 
FCKC
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:13 pm

BlueSky1976

Yes France will get 10 or 12 C390s.Sometimes i heard 10 , sometimes i heard 12 !
 
PPVRA
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:44 pm

Well, I suppose it's largely over now. . . just that is an accomplishment. This thing has been running off and on for the past 11 years.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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keesje
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:17 pm

Congratulations to Embraer. Is this the first order for the C-390?

Apart from the french there is an enormous C130 replacement market. Many are very old..

Seems a good deal for all 4 parties. Dassault, Embraer and the French and Brazil airforces.



"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Lumberton
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:37 am

Here's a new twist.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Quote:
Brazil is negotiating to buy 36 Dassault Rafales and France intends to join development of the Embraer KC-390 tanker/transport, and buy 10 to replace its C-130 Hercules. That's the gist of a statement from the Brazilian defense ministry on the occasion of French president Nicolas Sarkozy's visit to meet his Brazilian counterpart Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Max Q
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Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:04 am

Glad to see this beautiful Aircraft find another home.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
TaromA380
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:11 am



Quote:
France intends to join development of the Embraer KC-390

What does that means ?
Joint venture with EADS ?
Only financing ?
 
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sebolino
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:28 pm

I will believe it when Brazilian pilots will be flying the rafales, not before.
 
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keesje
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:42 pm

The combination of 30 Rafales (with conformal fuel tanks, active scanned radars, stand off weapons and KC-390 tankers would result in a very much expanded strike capability for the Brazalians. Maybe a reaction on the Venezuela Flankers?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
fridgmus
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:32 pm

Let's say that they both had pilots of equal skill, could a Brazilian Rafale, take a Venezuelan Flanker in a dog fight?

Thanks,
The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:50 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
The combination of 30 Rafales (with conformal fuel tanks, active scanned radars, stand off weapons and KC-390 tankers would result in a very much expanded strike capability for the Brazalians. Maybe a reaction on the Venezuela Flankers?



Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 13):
Let's say that they both had pilots of equal skill, could a Brazilian Rafale, take a Venezuelan Flanker in a dog fight?

Both very good questions. I would think the Rafale would have a better than even chance against the Flanker. That is because the KC-390 tankers could assure the Rafales would be at the optimum fighting weight and fuel load for both BVR engagements and dogfighting.

Does anyone know how the KC-390 matches up to the KC-130J? Where is Brazil buying the WARPs from? EU? UK? US?
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:42 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
The combination of 30 Rafales (with conformal fuel tanks, active scanned radars, stand off weapons

Who knows if the brazilian Rafales are going to come with the same equipment as the F.3?. I remember reading in several news article that the version offered to the brazilians its more cheap.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
Maybe a reaction on the Venezuela Flankers?

Not really. This competition has been going on for almost a decade if you include the first FX mess while the Flankers have been around 4 years at the most.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 13):
Let's say that they both had pilots of equal skill, could a Brazilian Rafale, take a Venezuelan Flanker in a dog fight?

Probably. We will find out when Brazil take their Rafales and Venezuela their Flankers to Cruzex.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Both very good questions. I would think the Rafale would have a better than even chance against the Flanker. That is because the KC-390 tankers could assure the Rafales would be at the optimum fighting weight and fuel load for both BVR engagements and dogfighting.

The other side has a tanker too, with more comming online in the future. The real advantage for the Brazilians lies on their AEW&C platforms.
 
columba
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:19 pm



Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 1):
So does it mean that France will get 12 C-390s?

The question is not if France will get KC 390 but if they will get them sooner then the A400M Big grin
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
johns624
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:56 pm

Shades of the early 1900's A-B-C battleship wars...
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:50 am

According to the Brazilian MoD Nelson A. Jobim, no winner of the F-X2 has been selected.

Quote:
Given this new reality, the selection process of the project FX-2, led by Air Force Command, has not yet closed, will continue negotiations with the three participants, which will be elaborated and eventually redefined the proposals.

Nelson A. Jobim
Minister of State for Defense

https://www.defesa.gov.br/mostra_materia.php?ID_MATERIA=33409

More on this on Ares and DEW Line:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...049773-3354-480b-a3ea-29abe93f00bd

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...razil-backtracks-on-rafale-se.html

My feeling is still that the Rafale will be selected eventually...
 
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keesje
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:15 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 15):
Who knows if the brazilian Rafales are going to come with the same equipment as the F.3?. I remember reading in several news article that the version offered to the brazilians its more cheap.

It will be F3 multi role standard allowing Exocet anti-ship missiles, the Reco NG reconnaissance pod and deliver e.g. the ASMP-A nuclear missile.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Lumberton
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Wed Sep 09, 2009 9:36 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 18):
According to the Brazilian MoD Nelson A. Jobim, no winner of the F-X2 has been selected.

That seems to be what the Brazilian AF is saying, despite what their president has publicly announced. Check out this story from a French magazine.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ion-still-open%2C-brazil-says.html

And the editorial comment.

Quote:
(EDITOR’S NOTE: French sources attribute the above announcement to Brazil’s legal obligation to complete the FX-2 fighter competition as originally planned. Simply cutting it short in favor of the Rafale would have made it liable to the other two competitors, Boeing and Saab.
However, local media report that the statement was demanded by air force commander Gen. Juniti Saito who considers the announcement in favour of Rafale as premature, and who was supported by an emergency meeting of the air force high command.
Jobim’s statement reveals for the first time that France has promised to sell the Rafale to Brazil at a price that is “comparable” to what it is paying for its own aircraft. This sets the price at about 75 million euros per aircraft, as the 2009 French defense budget earmarks 4.5 billion euros for a multiyear order of 60 Rafales.
This is considerably lower than the 4.5-5 billion euro price mentioned by Sarkozy’s staff during the French president’s visit to Brasilia.
Finally, it is noteworthy that Jobim’s statement implies that the competitors will be able to lodge new, revised offers.
These new developments contradict Monday’s formal announcement in favor of Rafale by Brazilian President Luis Ignacio Lula da Silva, and by Foreign Minister Celso Amorim, and suggest a power struggle regarding this hotly-disputed contract.
Thus, the real question today is what extraordinarily powerful argument the air force chief, Gen. Saito, used to persuade the defense minister to contradict, publicly and in writing, the president and foreign minister.)

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:34 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
Jobim’s statement reveals for the first time that France has promised to sell the Rafale to Brazil at a price that is “comparable” to what it is paying for its own aircraft. This sets the price at about 75 million euros per aircraft, as the 2009 French defense budget earmarks 4.5 billion euros for a multiyear order of 60 Rafales.
This is considerably lower than the 4.5-5 billion euro price mentioned by Sarkozy’s staff during the French president’s visit to Brasilia.

This exposes once more the disconnect among the French entities, which cost them the Morocco deal last time around.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
Finally, it is noteworthy that Jobim’s statement implies that the competitors will be able to lodge new, revised offers.

If true, expect the two other remaining bidders to pounce on this immediately.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 18):
My feeling is still that the Rafale will be selected eventually...

As I've mentioned in the other thread, the Brazilians might just be baiting. A little more suspense before they can bring out the "bubbly".  champagne 
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:48 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 21):
As I've mentioned in the other thread, the Brazilians might just be baiting. A little more suspense before they can bring out the "bubbly". champagne

Reading different blogs, newspapers and columnists, I'm thrown from believing in Rafale to dismissing them, and back again. Only time will tell I guess. Below are some sources and some of my personal views on this saga.

http://colunistas.ig.com.br/luisnass...vo-o-acordo-militar-brasil-franca/

Quote:
In October, Eurofighter, Lockheed and Sukhoi were eliminated. The first, because it is a consortium of several European countries, which hamper the transfer of technology. The Lockheed because there is no more precise information about the control that had the technology. And Sukhoi not to accept speaking in technology transfer.

Looks like issues with ToT was the eliminating factor in the first down selection. I don't think it take Einstein to figure out that the possibility of ToT will be a major reason for the final selection.

Brazilian views on French proposal:

Quote:
In the first conversation they had, Lula warned Mr Sarkozy of the problems of price and TOT. In addition, the French had not established a market for the sale of Brazilian Rafales. It did not matter only buy technology, but have an environment for the marketing of the product.



Quote:
In conversation, Sarkozy said he would ensure Brazil needs. Dassault is a private company, but of which 43% is owned by the state EDS - which, however, does not participate in management. Still, Sarkozy gave his word. He said that Dassault fit to make offer competitive and reasonable, and consistent with the values practiced by Dassault for the French armed forces.

On the Brazilian side, there were doubts about these values. And in them were built some kind of cross-subsidy from the French government to the company? It was then decided that these values would be the ceiling for the talks.



Quote:
Regarding the cost of maintenance, there were doubts about the cost of flight-hours presented by the French. Ratings reported by Saito indicated that, for a period of 30 years (period of obsolescence), the calculation of the FAB had reached very high value applications.

The last concern regarding cost per flight hour was also brought up here:

http://defesabrasil.com/site/noticia...ia-da-avaliacao-tecnica-da-fab.php

Quote:
The operational cost of the Rafale was estimated at $16,000, while the American F-18, Boeing would cost $10,000 and the Swedish Gripen, Saab's U.S. $ 4,500.

I saw another source quoting the FAB, saying they favored the Gripen followed by SH and Rafale. Can't find it right now though...

If I were to believe these sources I'd say that the Rafale was behind on a operational level. The answer to this by Sarkozi was more, more and even more ToT, and a dozen KC-390 as the frosting on the 'ToT cake'. I think it might work since it doesn't seem like price and operational costs will be a deciding factor given the current Brazilian spendings on defence material.

ToT elimitated the EF, F-16 and Su-35, and it will probably give the contract to Rafale.
 
GDB
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:17 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 19):
It will be F3 multi role standard allowing Exocet anti-ship missiles, the Reco NG reconnaissance pod and deliver e.g. the ASMP-A nuclear missile.

I very much doubt that any FAB Rafale's will have provision for the AMSP. Which would not be sold to them in the first place.

However, Dassault/France has history here, the FAB was a Mirage III operator, in the past Embraer types have found their way into French military service.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:44 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 16):
The question is not if France will get KC 390 but if they will get them sooner then the A400M

Oops...  duck   duck   duck   duck   duck 
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:21 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 22):
ToT elimitated the EF, F-16 and Su-35, and it will probably give the contract to Rafale.

Not so fast. From D-Ae.....

Rival bidders pull out all stops for Brazil fighter jet deal

And pounce, Boeing did.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...as-lula-justifies-french-deal.html

Quote:
"The U.S. Government fully supports the sale of the F/A-18 Super Hornet to the Brazilian Air Force. Our government approved the transfer of all necessary technology. We continue to believe that our proposal is strong and competitive.

The United States Congress’ review of the potential sale to the Government of Brazil of the F/A-18 Super Hornet concluded on September 5 with no formal objection to the proposed sale. This means that U.S. Government’s approval of the transfer to Brazil of the advanced technologies associated with the U.S. Government’s offer of the F/A-18 Super Hornet is final. Final assembly of the Super Hornet in Brazil has also been approved by the U.S. Government.

Boeing's multi-billion dollar offset package to be invested directly into the Brazilian aerospace industry will transfer technology related to military design and production, provide autonomy in key areas of program support, and develop a broad Brazilian aerospace industry beyond just fighter aircraft, through direct involvement with the world’s largest aerospace company."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:29 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):

From what I understand (perhaps from French biased and anti Gripen sources) is that it doesn't matter what the US agrees to do now. Whenever US feels their agenda is different from Brazil's, they can stop deliveries or change conditions. (Why this wouldn't be the case for French equipment, I don't know).

Apparently some time ago, Brazil ordered some GPS equipment from the US. It all worked well until one day when the equipment suddenly had an error of 150m instead of the 1m, which was stated in the specifications and contract.

This is of course also why the Gripen might face difficulties as its ~18% US parts (including engines according to a recent statement in India).

If the trust for US is gone in Brasilia and Sarkozy can convince them that France will deliver what promised, US, Sweden, Boeing and Saab will unfortunately struggle.

[Edited 2009-09-10 21:34:43]
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:21 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):
Boeing's multi-billion dollar offset package to be invested directly into the Brazilian aerospace industry

C390 for the US? Would those be more welcome than KC-30's? The US seem a little touchy when it comes to buying foreign military aircrafts.

But maybe there is just another 787 work-package to be deployed to Brazil. A large South American participant is missed in that global venture.

I assume the Rafale vs Flanker would look much better than a Superhornet? Anyway the Rafale looks much better directly against the Superhornet:
http://www.milavia.net/specials/redflag08-4/
(I know this link has been questioned one time, but it is public and plausible in the end too IMO)
 
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keesje
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:54 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):
"The U.S. Government fully supports the sale of the F/A-18 Super Hornet to the Brazilian Air Force. Our government approved the transfer of all necessary technology. We continue to believe that our proposal is strong and competitive.

The United States Congress’ review of the potential sale to the Government of Brazil of the F/A-18 Super Hornet concluded on September 5 with no formal objection to the proposed sale. This means that U.S. Government’s approval of the transfer to Brazil of the advanced technologies associated with the U.S. Government’s offer of the F/A-18 Super Hornet is final. Final assembly of the Super Hornet in Brazil has also been approved by the U.S. Government.

Political pressure is building apparently..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
johns624
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:05 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 26):
Apparently some time ago, Brazil ordered some GPS equipment from the US. It all worked well until one day when the equipment suddenly had an error of 150m instead of the 1m, which was stated in the specifications and contract.

BS. In times of war, the satellites can stop sending the more accurate signals but you cannot remotely change the accuracy of a unit.
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:25 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 29):
BS. In times of war, the satellites can stop sending the more accurate signals but you cannot remotely change the accuracy of a unit.

I know how the GPS system works... The error wasn't in the signal, it was in the delivered units.
 
johns624
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:53 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 30):
The error wasn't in the signal, it was in the delivered units.

From your original post, you're implying that the US got angry at Brazil and with remote control caused the GPS units not to work correctly...sorry, no way.
 
TGIF
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:12 pm



Quoting Johns624 (Reply 31):
From your original post, you're implying that the US got angry at Brazil and with remote control caused the GPS units not to work correctly...sorry, no way.

I'm sorry if you interpreted it that way, that was not the intention.

Let me rephrase: Brazil were taking delivery of GPS equipment. The specified error was 1m. When they received the equipment, it was degraded and had an accuracy of 150m.

http://netmarinha.uol.com.br/index.p...s&catid=8:ultimasnoticias&Itemid=7

Google translation:

Quote:
Jobim remember the recent case of GPS equipment for the Super Tucano FAB have been delivered "degraded" with precision of 150 meters in Instead of a meter, as in the contract.

 
Lumberton
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:25 pm

Apparently Lula spoke too soon.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Brazil...etter-apf-1104854049.html?x=0&.v=2

Quote:
BRASILIA, Brazil (AP) -- Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said Friday he is holding out on a multibillion-dollar contract for 36 fighter jets in case there are better offers.

Brazil is carrying out technical evaluations on bids to deliver 36 fighters by France's Dassault SA, Sweden's Saab AB and Boeing Co. of Chicago.

Silva said he has the final word on the winner, and negotiations are not over if a bidder wants to offer better terms.

Does this embarrass Sarko or what?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Acheron
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:36 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 33):
Does this embarrass Sarko or what?

Not really. Lula is probably being polite with SAAB and Boeing to avoid legal battles in the future by letting the contest end legally.
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:32 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 33):
BRASILIA, Brazil (AP) -- Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said Friday he is holding out on a multibillion-dollar contract for 36 fighter jets in case there are better offers.

According to Swedish news,SAAB is preparing to add some sugar to the Brazilians....gues Boeing do the same. All this will lead to is to sell perhaps a couple of more C390 to the French  Confused and they will be on top again.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 33):
Does this embarrass Sarko or what?

This is a done deal and he knows it,wait and see.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 34):
Not really. Lula is probably being polite with SAAB and Boeing to avoid legal battles in the future by letting the contest end legally

Would be interesting to see if the French "ad" something to be on top or are they aware that the deal is a done deal??......probably.
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:40 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 35):

Would be interesting to see if the French "ad" something to be on top or are they aware that the deal is a done deal??......probably.

One of the requests was a lower price. I think this will happen.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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keesje
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:14 am

I expect other (european) airforces buying C-390. It seems an affordable modern, silent multi role aircraft. The C-130J seems the major competitor but is a very diffrerent aircraft. (bigger, slower, unable to use commercial airways). Maybe Brazil will buy (much (2x) larger) A400M down the line too.

Quoting Chuchoteur (Thread starter):
and unprecedented technology transfer.

 Confused In what areas? http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com.../img_zoom_145aewc_state_of_art.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:52 pm

A little backgrounder for the mixup.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-brazil-is-waffling-on-rafale.html

Quote:
"One of the reasons cited for Lula’s rush to announce the deal is Sarkozy's intention to acquire ten KC-390 tanker-transport aircraft being developed by Brazil’s Embraer. The aircraft is in the design phase, with funding from the Brazilian air force, and a first foreign sale could help launch its potential on the international market."

Looks like the pols are anxious to present a bacon to their public.

Meanwhile, Boeing is seeking local partners to bolster its bid.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...rt-super-hornet-bid-in-brazil.html

[Edited 2009-09-16 08:14:45]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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keesje
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RE: Brazil Selects Rafale As New Fighter A/c

Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:43 am

As said a substantial fleet of Rafales / modern weapons + a substantial KC390 tanker fleet will boost regional offensive capability of the Brazilian air force.

I wonder when the C390 turned into the KC390 and wath tanker capasity of the KC-390 will be..

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway

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Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos