GDB
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US Army JCA Alternative?

Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:35 pm

With the US Army part of the C-27 based Joint Cargo Aircraft project axed, probably in part due to the long history of controversy between the two services over operating fixed wing transports.
Could an old experimental program revived and suitably modernized, provide the US Army with a partial solution to their part of JCA?

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/hi...ft/A_Models/65-07992/65-07992.html

Such a machine built today to the CH-47F standards, with the extra power, with the wing of this experimental model, would have some of the advantages in higher speed, smoother cruise, bigger payload of a fixed wing type, but with the advantage of not putting a whole new type, in a whole new size and weight fixed wing wise, into the US Army inventory.
Though you'd want to lose the retractable gondola of the old prototype.

But it would also be able to, when needed, bolster the rotary wing capability of the service too.
With that in mind, a dozen or so in RAF service wouldn't go amiss.
(Potentially not the only export customer either).
 
ThePointblank
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 12:35 am

They could go with the C-295... according to rumours, the Army was in favour of the C-295 while the USAF preferred the C-27J in the JCA competition.
 
L-188
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:12 am

Jesus will they decide already!

The AKARNG definately needs to get rid of those crappy Sherpa's. The remote armories are very dependent on those aircraft for support, probably more then any other state.

At one point I think they where talking about getting the Spartan's on their own.
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Devilfish
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:03 am



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):
according to rumours, the Army was in favour of the C-295 while the USAF preferred the C-27J in the JCA competition.

Perhaps the smaller C-235 operated by the Coast Guard could sidestep the "turf rivalry" issue?

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GDB
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:30 am



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):
They could go with the C-295... according to rumours, the Army was in favour of the C-295 while the USAF preferred the C-27J in the JCA competition.

Surely the objection to the Army operating a transport aircraft of a size and weight more associated with the USAF, would still be objected to, regardless of the actual type?
Arguments raged in the 1960's about the Army operating the DH Caribou.
It's a turf war.

Hence a solution that could some of the job (which the Army is trying to do with CH-47's now) that the USAF could not object to, as well as enhancing the helicopter capability anyway.
 
connies4ever
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:06 am



Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
Surely the objection to the Army operating a transport aircraft of a size and weight more associated with the USAF, would still be objected to, regardless of the actual type?
Arguments raged in the 1960's about the Army operating the DH Caribou.
It's a turf war.

Absolutely it's a turf war. And it's the primary reason the US Army didn't go ahead with planned acquisition of large numbers of CV-8 (?) Buffaloes in the 1960s, after evaluating an initial batch of (I think) 5. They were looking at the Buff to replace the Caribou -- more capacity, power, speed, same outstanding short-field ability.

Only about 115 or so Buffaloes were built (Canada, Peru, Brazil, Nigeria, Kenya, to name some, operated them). A large order from the US Army would surely have resulted in other orders and solidified the Buff's reputation and place in history.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Spacepope
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:28 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 3):
Perhaps the smaller C-235 operated by the Coast Guard could sidestep the "turf rivalry" issue?

Don't forget the US (Special Forces) alreay operates the C-235. One was recently photographed in Kabul.
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STT757
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:34 pm

The original plan was for 78 JCA's split between the Army and the Air Force, now it seems the Air Force will get 38 and that will be the entire order. No Army JCA's.

The V-22 exceeds the performance of the C-23 in range, speed and in the amount of cargo. They could jump in on the Navy/Marine order.

[Edited 2009-10-04 07:47:05]
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Devilfish
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:17 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 6):
Don't forget the US (Special Forces) alreay operates the C-235. One was recently photographed in Kabul.

Thank you. I didn't know that.

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Now I understand how opposition to the Army operating the type would come. By the way, what's that protrusion on the fuselage aft of the rear door in the first photo?

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
The V-22 exceeds the performance of the C-23 in range, speed and in the amount of cargo. They could jump in on the Navy/Marine order.

It also considerably exceeds the costs of the alternative platforms.

[Edited 2009-10-04 09:28:34]
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Spacepope
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:47 pm

That's the defensive countermeasures lump. 96-6046 was photographed in Kabul with it (photo in AFM September 2009 p.20. Must be something like what the Herks are being fitted with, flares/chaff and IR jammer.

You can see them well ont his bottom view
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Devilfish
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:10 pm

Well then, it seems the Army would have to content themselves with the C-41A. That is, if they could still have more of the latest model (C212-400).....

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I think CASA still holds the manufacturing rights but is shifting fabrication work to Indonesia.
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JohnM
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RE: US Army JCA Alternative?

Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:42 am



Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
The V-22 exceeds the performance of the C-23 in range, speed and in the amount of cargo. They could jump in on the Navy/Marine
order.

The V-22 is a great way to waste some more money if the stimulus $ just wasn't enough.

The C-27 and the C-235 easily exceed every spec the V-22 has. The CH-47 can fill the vert lift mode for short hauls, the other two stiff wing platforms would be out flying while the V-22s would be sucking up hanger time and money. The 2 fixed wing planes could even self deploy, unlike the V-22 (they got a ship ride to the AOR).

Of course the Serpa is dated, but the V-22 will never happen for that role.

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