CheetahC
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Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:23 pm

What are the top jet fighter aircraft in terms of air-to-air kills?
I assume that the F-15, F-4 and perhaps the Mirage III would be right up there, but what are the actual figures.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:32 pm

I guess it's going to be the F-86
 
CheetahC
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:40 pm

I forgot all about the F-86, nothing else even comes close. So what would occupy the number two spot then, the F-4 perhaps?
 
zanl188
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:51 pm

I'll take a guess and say the Me-262 is up there on the list....
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EMBQA
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:30 pm



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 3):

Not even close. The Me-262 saw only very limited use at the end of WWII.
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keesje
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:25 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
Not even close. The Me-262 saw only very limited use at the end of WWII.

Me 262 downed more the 500 aircraft. (some say a lot more)
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zanl188
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:25 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 4):
Not even close. The Me-262 saw only very limited use at the end of WWII.

The Luftwaffe was able to build close to 1400 Me-262s before the end of the war and it was in combat by the fall of '44. A number of pilots were multiple aces in the aircraft. Primary target for the 262 was 4 engine bombers.

Although records from the period are sketchy this paragraph from Boynes book, Messerschmitt Me-262 Arrow to the Future, probably sums things up pretty well:

Jagdgeschwader 7 ... was formed in Dec 1944; it stayed in operation until the end of the war, ... The III Gruppe of JG 7, ..., was able to maintain a full complement of 45 aircraft in action, and reportedly claimed more than 400 aircraft, including 300 four engine bombers shot down. While this claim is almost certainly too high, it was performance like this, in the last five months of the war, which is the best support for the opinions of such luminaries as Lt. General Galland, who feels that the introduction of the Messerschmitt Me-262 some 18 months earlier would have had a vital influence on the outcome of the war.

It's the more modern fighters that aren't even close.......
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zanl188
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:28 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
Me 262 downed more the 500 aircraft. (some say a lot more)

OMG! Mr Airbus and I agree on something!
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Spacepope
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:28 pm

MiG 15, 17 and 21 are probably up there for the Soviet side.

F-86, F-15, F-16 and F-4 in western countries. Honorable mentions to the F-9F, F-105 and F-80.

There are a slew of fighters with just a few combat victories, and quite a few with none (F-89 I'm looking at you).
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:04 am



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 8):
MiG 15, 17 and 21 are probably up there for the Soviet side.

F-86, F-15, F-16 and F-4 in western countries. Honorable mentions to the F-9F, F-105 and F-80.

I would also add the Marage F-1, the Buccanair, and the F-8, along with the already mentioned Me-262. Although not a jet, there was a USN flight of 2 A-1Es that got a gun kill on a Mig-19 in North Vietnam around 1966. I believe this is the only modern prop kill of a jet in modern time (yes, I know a lot of P-51s got Me-262 kills).
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:39 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
I would also add the Marage F-1, the Buccanair, and the F-8, along with the already mentioned Me-262. Although not a jet, there was a USN flight of 2 A-1Es that got a gun kill on a Mig-19 in North Vietnam around 1966. I believe this is the only modern prop kill of a jet in modern time (yes, I know a lot of P-51s got Me-262 kills).

A RN Hawker Sea Fury tagged a MiG-15 during the Korean War...
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:27 am



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 10):
A RN Hawker Sea Fury tagged a MiG-15 during the Korean War...

As did USMC F-4U. B-29s seem to have more MiG kills than all of the F-84s combined.


There are plenty of aircraft with a few kills (SU-15 ,27, MiG 19, 23, 25, F-14, F-104, A-4, even an A-7 winged a MiG-17). There's also the Meteor, Mystere, and others...

I blanked on the Mirage III and F-8.
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Ant72LBA
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:54 pm

For the UK I'd assume that the Harrier is the only jet fighter with a significant number of kills (21 in the Falklands War - think these were all RN Sea Harrier kills?). Can't think of another jet fighter since WW2 that would have exceeded that? Can't think that the Lightning, Tornado ADV or Phantom would have scored any kills in RAF/RN service.

A bit of research on the Gloster Meteor suggests that most of its kills were by ground attack rather than air-air.
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:37 pm

Interesting piece with references on the F86 - Mig15

By the end of hostilities, F-86 pilots were credited with shooting down 792 MiGs for a loss of only 78 Sabres, a victory ratio of 10:1.[22] More recent research by Dorr, Lake and Thompson has claimed the actual ratio is closer to 2:1.[23]

The Soviet claims of downing over 600 Sabres[24] together with the Chinese claims[25] are considered exaggerated by the USAF.[citation needed] Recent USAF records show that 224 F-86s were lost to all causes, including non-combat losses. But direct comparison of Sabre and MiG losses seem irrelevant, since many F-86s Sabres were lost due to enemy air defense fire, while MiGs were pure air-to-air fighters and had the advantage of only flying over friendly territory.



A recent RAND report[26] made reference to "recent scholarship" of F-86 vs. MiG-15 combat over Korea and concluded that the actual kill:loss ratio for the F-86 was 1.8:1 overall, and likely 1.3:1 against MiGs flown by Soviet pilots; however, the report has been under fire for various misrepresentations.[27]

Of the 41 American pilots who earned the designation of ace during the Korean war, all but one flew the F-86 Sabre, the exception being a Navy F4U Corsair night fighter pilot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-86_Sabre

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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:06 pm

The only aircraft a Grumman F-11F ever shot down shot down was its self.

The correct answer by the way is the F-86 Saber Jet.
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:52 pm

Of the modern jets Tom Coopers book on 'Iranian F-14 Tomcats units in combat' claims 159 confirmed air to air kills with 34 probables for the loss of 3 air to air and 4 to SAMs.

The F-15 is up at 100 - 0.

It would be interesting to get a handle on how many kills Iranian and Israeli F-4's have and add that to US kills during Vietnam.

Mirage III's have to be up there when you take Israeli and Iraqi kills.
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:22 pm

Not the biggest killer among the jet-fighters but surely impressive was the F14 Tomcat.
It was also one of the few US fighters that was more successful outside US forces than under US service (mainly due to the lack of "opportunities").

In the original Gulf War from the end of the 70's till the late 80's it served with the Iranian AF under very difficult circumstances (most of its most experienced pilots fled to the west, lack of spares and suffering from early sabotage acts) but still was one of the most formidable air superiority fighters with a very favorable kill ratio and an extensive use of the few LR Phoenix rockets they had scoring between 60 and 70 kills with 70-90 AIM 54's launched, a lot of them against high profile fighters like the MiG23, MiG25 and early Mirage F1 models.


Also a lot of credit should go to the 50's and 60's Dassault models (Vatour, Ouragan, Mystere and Mirage III ) who where responsible for the fast victory in the 6 day war and the Mirage III again that was a big factor in the Yom Kippur surprise attack war in ' 73.
[edit post]
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:08 pm



Quoting Ant72LBA (Reply 12):
Can't think that the Lightning, Tornado ADV or Phantom would have scored any kills in RAF/RN service.

An RAF Phantom scored a kill with a Sidewinder on 25th May 1982. Unfortunately, the victim was RAF Jaguar GR1 XX963, the pilot ejected safely.

The Phantom crew were conducting a practice 'kill' on a pair of Jaguars, but a number of factors led to them losing situational awareness that they were carrying live ordnance on this occasion. Going for a camera-kill they actually managed the real thing.

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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:17 am



Quoting GPHOTO (Reply 17):
Going for a camera-kill they actually managed the real thing.

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You just gotta hate when that happens...

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CheetahC
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:35 am



Quoting GPHOTO (Reply 17):
Going for a camera-kill they actually managed the real thing.

Better than shooting yourself down, I guess.
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:13 am

Wasn't there a case of an F-104 geting a guns kill on itself.

IIRC it must have taken an elevation shot and then accidently dived under its own line of fire, collecting a few cannon shells on their way back down for its trouble.
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:47 pm



Quoting Spudh (Reply 20):
Wasn't there a case of an F-104 geting a guns kill on itself.

Grumman F-11F.
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:53 pm

Whereas the only attempted kill by an F-89 vs an out of control F6F drone ended up missing, just destroying property in California (AKA "The Battle of Palmdale")

http://steeljawscribe.com/2007/08/28...al-aviation-the-battle-of-palmdale
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:46 pm



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 22):
Whereas the only attempted kill by an F-89 vs an out of control F6F drone ended up missing, just destroying property in California (AKA "The Battle of Palmdale")

I remember it will. One of the 208 2 1/4" folding fin rockets launched from the two F-89's in an attempt to shot down the F6F landed about 300 yards from my house. My brother led the investigators to it.
 
CheetahC
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:48 am

Anybody know how many kills the Mirage III can account for?
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:35 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
Marage F-1, the Buccanair

In which conflict would the Mirage F1 have shot down more than one or two aircraft?
Ditto for the Buccaneer which was very much a bomber (great aircraft though).
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:00 pm



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 25):
In which conflict would the Mirage F1 have shot down more than one or two aircraft?
Ditto for the Buccaneer which was very much a bomber (great aircraft though).

Mirage F-1 in Iran/Iraq war and South Africa vs. Mozambique?

Buccaneer... I can't think of a single one.
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:14 pm



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 26):
Mirage F-1 in Iran/Iraq war and South Africa vs. Mozambique?

Good points, especially Iran-Iraq.
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 26):
Mirage F-1 in Iran/Iraq war and South Africa vs. Mozambique?

I beleive that two Equadorian Mirage F-1s shot down two Peruvian Su-22s in 1995.
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CheetahC
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:36 pm



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 26):
Mirage F-1 in Iran/Iraq war and South Africa vs. Mozambique?

That would be South Africa vs Angola/Cuba.
The F-1C was responsible for 2xMiG-21.
 
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:44 pm



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 25):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
Marage F-1, the Buccanair

In which conflict would the Mirage F1 have shot down more than one or two aircraft?



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 26):
Mirage F-1 in Iran/Iraq war and South Africa vs. Mozambique?



Quoting AF" class=quote target=_blank>RJAF (Reply 28):
I beleive that two Equadorian Mirage F-1s shot down two Peruvian Su-22s in 1995.



Quoting CheetahC (Reply 29):
That would be South Africa vs Angola/Cuba.
The F-1C was responsible for 2xMiG-21.

All correct. Don't forget the Mirage IIICJ also got a lot of kills while flying for the IDFAF in the 1967 "6 Day War".

Israeli Air Force Mirage IIICJ # 159 is in the Israeli Air Force Museum sporting 13 Egyption AF kills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mirage3.jpg

Israel claimed to have shot down 46 enemy fighters during the 1967 war, and lost 12 of its own to enemy fighters. A kill ratio of nearly 4:1.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:52 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 30):
Don't forget the Mirage IIICJ also got a lot of kills while flying for the IDFAF in the 1967 "6 Day War".

I certainly didn't forget that... but the Mirage III/5 is a different beast.
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L-188
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:18 am



Quoting Spacepope (Reply 11):
Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 10):
A RN Hawker Sea Fury tagged a MiG-15 during the Korean War...

As did USMC F-4U.

And a AD-1 got one in Nam also.

Seriously though going back to the original target, I would have to say that the 262, F-86, Mig 15/17 are all serious contenders for this title.

One question though, do Metor V-1 kills in WWII count?
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Arniepie
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:41 am

How many kills did the Harrier score in the Falklands war?
Also, did it score any other kills in any of the other wars it performed in (RAF, NAVY, USMC,...) ?

[Edited 2009-11-14 16:42:28]
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mayor
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:37 am

Didn't the A-10 score an air to air kill in the first Gulf war??
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L-188
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:32 am



Quoting Mayor (Reply 34):
Didn't the A-10 score an air to air kill in the first Gulf war??

I think it was against a helo, not a fast mover.
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:15 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 32):



Quoting L-188 (Reply 32):
And a AD-1 got one in Nam also.

Seriously though going back to the original target, I would have to say that the 262, F-86, Mig 15/17 are all serious contenders for this title.

Yes, we covered the AD-1, having at least 2 kills (the first was officially shared) in Vietnam already.

The 262 is problematic, though the rest of your list is goiod. I'd add the F-4, F-15 and MiG-21 to your list, and challenge anyone to come up with a jet fighter with more than 30 kills.

IIRC one of the A-10 vs helicopter kills in ODS was with a LGB.
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ptrjong
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RE: Jet Fighters With Most Kills

Sun Nov 15, 2009 10:21 am

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 33):
How many kills did the Harrier score in the Falklands war?

20 air-to-air according to the British, putting the Harrier quite high on the list...

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 36):
I challenge anyone to come up with a jet fighter with more than 30 kills.



Quote:
Between their introduction in 1966 and the end of the Yom Kippur War in late 1973, the Mirage [III] and Nesher were credited with over 300 confirmed [air to air] victories.

Source: Huertas, Mirage III/5

[Edited 2009-11-15 02:23:32 by ptrjong]
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