2H4
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Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:06 am

Flightglobal just posted a fantastic flight test of the Rafale:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...assault-rafale-rampant-rafale.html

My favorite quote:

-------------------------------------------
“A final level acceleration from 200-500kt in full afterburner at 5,000ft and 1.8t fuel weight can only be described as brutal, with the aircraft increasing speed at about 30kt/s and the force of acceleration hurting my spine as I was pressed backwards against the ejection seat.”
-------------------------------------------

Oh, to experience acceleration that hurts my spine...

Does anyone know of any similarly-detailed flight reports of other military aircraft?

2H4
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GST
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:47 pm

That is a really good account, nice find.
 
MD-90
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:16 am



Quote:
The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.

He needs to fly the F-22 and write about it so we can get a comparison.
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:38 am

I hope the UK sees sense and bins the F35s for the carriers in favour of a few more Rafales instead.

I love the Rafale. Got to be the best looking fighter plane of modern times. Just absolutely stunning to look at, and stunning to fly it would seem.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:14 am

I have only ever seen a Dassault Rafale once, ...it was at the Paris Airshow in 1991 and for me the French pilot and his machine completely stole the show. ...When he taxied in he had very definitely taken it from the F16 and even the controversial new Russian machines.

I was a guest in the Dassault enclosure and it remains one of those enduring memories that I will never forget. The French are very patriotic and the Tricolore was fluttering everywhere around me. ...Well that Rafale test pilot had stopped his beautiful machine once only and exclusively in front of the Dassault enclosure. Slowly the sideways opening canopy had lifted away to the left, whereupon the Frenchman saluted his countrymen. It was very theatrical and perfectly timed and it seemed like hundreds of people around me arose to wave and cheer him. Then the canopy slowly closed again and he taxied away. ...I suppose many of the crowd around me would have been French and probably also Dassault employees, but nevertheless the Rafale had clearly made a grand impression and it's pilot must have been feeling famous on that day.

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Photo © Chris Lofting


...Dassault has been building very fine aeroplanes for many years.
 
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walter2222
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:50 pm



Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 4):
Slowly the sideways opening canopy had lifted away to the left

Are you sure it lifted away to the left?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Walter Van Bel


Here it can be seen, opening to the right.

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 4):
...Dassault has been building very fine aeroplanes for many years.

 checkmark   checkmark 

Best regards,

Walter
Canon 347d mkII ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l IS USM - ...
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:02 am



Quoting Walter2222 (Reply 5):
Are you sure it lifted away to the left?

I think I should have considered myself one of the luckiest guys in the World mate if I had been watching that canopy lift away to the right, ...in which case I would most likely have been the pilot. However, like hundreds of other people I was just an observer stood facing the machine head-on and that canopy lifted away to "my left" as it did for everybody else.
 
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walter2222
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:59 am



Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 6):
like hundreds of other people I was just an observer stood facing the machine head-on and that canopy lifted away to "my left" as it did for everybody else.

Ah, my bad, that explains it!  Smile Observing the aircraft from close by is still a nice experience!

Best regards,

Walter
Canon 347d mkII ;-) - EFS10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM - EFS18-55mm - EF28-105mm f3.5/4.5 - EF100-400mm f4.5-5.6l IS USM - ...
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:25 pm

He needs to fly the F-22 and write about it so we can get a comparison.

He needs to fly any comparable aircraft ......

Combat Aircraft suggests that Collins’ lack of experience of contemporary fast jets meant that he did not really have sufficient basis for comparison, and that his gushing praise was a little unqualified.

See: RAFALE, AS GOOD AS ITS PRESS?


http://www.combataircraft.net/reports/rafale.php
 
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par13del
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:49 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 2):
He needs to fly the F-22 and write about it so we can get a comparison.

Unfortunately, they were made too expensive so enough of them do not exist to give joy rides, besides, what would be the point, congress has already voted to "kill" the project, now if they had given "joy rides" a couple year ago, you never know where we would be today  Smile

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 3):
hope the UK sees sense and bins the F35s for the carriers in favour of a few more Rafales instead.

Depends on what they want numbers wise, spending, making, or putting a/c on the deck  Smile
 
GST
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:29 pm

Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 2):
He needs to fly the F-22 and write about it so we can get a comparison.

Unfortunately, they were made too expensive so enough of them do not exist to give joy rides, besides, what would be the point, congress has already voted to "kill" the project, now if they had given "joy rides" a couple year ago, you never know where we would be today Smile

Lets not forget the lack of a dual seat F-22 variant. If there were such a thing (as the initial design was intended to make possible), possibly derated and cheaper to produce as it need not be stealthy, I suspect we would have seen key personalities going for a ride, but as it stands, the USAF is not going to pay for an outsider to get type rated in the sims and let them go up on their own in the most expensive fighter on their roster.

EDIT: It isn't entirely the case, I know of at least one RAF pilot on exchange who flew the F-22, but that is massively different.

[Edited 2009-11-25 06:30:02]
 
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par13del
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:33 pm



Quoting GST (Reply 10):
Lets not forget the lack of a dual seat F-22 variant. If there were such a thing (as the initial design was intended to make possible), possibly derated and cheaper to produce as it need not be stealthy, I suspect we would have seen key personalities going for a ride, but as it stands, the USAF is not going to pay for an outsider to get type rated in the sims and let them go up on their own in the most expensive fighter on their roster.

A dual seat version of any fighter going forward should at least be built as a demonstrator, based on the prices and items companies need to use military projects to fund, taking some "influential" folks up for a "promotional ride" will only benefit in the political arena where most battles are now being fought, at the very least it won't hurt and will be charged in the normal cost of the project.
 
TGIF
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:51 pm

Dassault are definitely taking advantage of the article in an attempt to get a good word in Brazil.


 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:52 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 8):
Combat Aircraft suggests that Collins%u2019 lack of experience of contemporary fast jets meant that he did not really have sufficient basis for comparison, and that his gushing praise was a little unqualified.

It's unclear whose name and what their personal qualification is to make such criticism.

And quoting the last paragraph:-

Quote. ...The evaluation was rather cursory and the concluding superlatives are more journalistic than real conclusions and recommendations. If he would risk his life in any combat situation based on the evidence of what he actually saw...... words fail me! ....Quote

This unknown person is taking a very high and mighty attitude and in fact his second sentence above is no more or less than the controversial journalism he is accusing Peter Collins of in his first sentence.

The way I see it is, ...even if the Rafale is only the third best fighter in the World that still must make it pretty damn hot and worthy of gushing superlatives.
 
GDB
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:35 pm

The Rafale is clearly an extremely potent and versatile machine.
On reading the article in the magazine though, I did wonder just what the pilot was comparing it to.
Now we know.

This is not a problem in itself, but it would have been useful to have a few notes to accompany the article about the pilot's own experience with modern military aircraft.
It was I think a significant lapse to omit his lack of experience with current generation aircraft, just for the purposes of context.

It's a bit like a car reviewer gushing praise of a modern vehicle, when his previous experience is only with cars, at best from, the early 1980's.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:29 am



Quoting GDB (Reply 14):
It's a bit like a car reviewer gushing praise of a modern vehicle, when his previous experience is only with cars, at best from, the early 1980's.

No it's not, ...there are no test pilot schools or qualifications for car reviewers.
The whole ethos of the test pilot is to climb in to unfamiliar and cutting edge aircraft and evaluate them and it has always been so. Within that context the article is entirely valid. Moreover the pilot clearly stated his intentions for the flight, none of which were a comparison to other cutting edge aircraft. In particular he referenced his test flight to the Mirage 2000 which was relevant by lineage and with which he was familiar and so clearly he was qualified to bear witness to the Rafale's improvement over that machine and also by inference to cutting edge French technology.
 
GDB
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:54 am

But Ferrypilot, that still leaves the last sentence of the article, the one about choosing to go to war in this aircraft above any other.
Context is important here.
Reading that gives the impression that the Rafale is superior to any other aircraft in it's class available now.
Which is questionable.
 
Knid
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:12 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 16):
But Ferrypilot, that still leaves the last sentence of the article, the one about choosing to go to war in this aircraft above any other.
Context is important here.
Reading that gives the impression that the Rafale is superior to any other aircraft in it's class available now.
Which is questionable.

I agree the context is essential, however its important to remember the subtext here, a pilot who is evaluating the airframe, handling and a limited selection of the sensors for a magazine.

The final sentence should be read in the context of the whole paragraph, where the aircraft is referred to as the complete package, here I think its reasonable to think that the final sentence could be intended to mean, if he had to go into combat with only one aircraft, this would be the one that he would choose.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:39 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 16):
But Ferrypilot, that still leaves the last sentence of the article, the one about choosing to go to war in this aircraft above any other.
Context is important here.
Reading that gives the impression that the Rafale is superior to any other aircraft in it's class available now.
Which is questionable.

Hi GDB it is not my agenda here to defend to the hilt a man I do not know from Adam and in respect to every single word he has written. However, you might consider that there are other eminently plausible interpretations of that last sentence and the writer might simply defend himself by saying that you are putting words in his mouth.

One possible explanation or at least part of is that Dassault are a well known phenomenon in aviation for garnering permanent devotees amongst pilots who have flown their machines. If the writer has a long standing love affair with Dassault aircraft and it does appear that he has fond memories of the Mirage 2000 then he was bound to be enthralled when he found the Rafale to be even better.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:35 pm

I don't know if this will help this (semantics) debate, but if you look at FlightGlobal's page, the link to the Rafale test flight reads:

"Dassault's Rafale - the best and most complete aircraft our test pilot has ever flown"

(My emphasis)

http://www.flightglobal.com/sectionh...onID=179&CategoryID=10249&SlotID=2
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:42 pm

Ferrypilot,

I salute you for your enthusiasm for Rafale. It’s a fine aircraft, a pretty aircraft, and it’s clearly ahead of many of its rivals in certain key areas.

The point about the Flight International piece is that its overall tone was gushing and uncritical, that the pilot made a great deal of particular points that really weren’t impressive, and that the piece was presented very much as being an ‘expert view’, when in fact, the author had very little expertise when it comes to aircraft in this class, and of this generation.

Yes, of course Test Pilots are trained to evaluate new and unfamiliar aircraft, but the skills of a test pilot need to be constantly polished and kept up to date, and a test pilot needs to have relevant operational experience if he is going to try to evaluate operational capabilities and competences.

The author of this piece had no such experience.

If you haven’t flown any of the teen series, if you haven’t flown MiG-29, Su-27, Gripen, or Typhoon, and if the Sea Harrier FRS.Mk 1 is the most up to date cockpit you’ve flown on operations, then clearly Rafale is going to look pretty darned wonderful – but wouldn’t it be better to hear the opinions of someone who has actually flown on the frontline this century, or during the 90s, and who has sampled modern fighters like the F-16MLU?

One certainly needs to understand the context in which the article was written.
 
GDB
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:53 pm

Ferrypilot, indeed, I note just how loyal many are to Dassault's Falcon series of biz jets.
IIRC, the same magazine had a flight test as enthusiastic as the one we are talking about not that long ago.

As things stand right now, prior to the F-35 in service, with only the F-22 ever likely to be in USAF service, that last sentence you could argue has some traction.
I'd just rather he had also flown a Typhoon and the Gripen too. Arguably the F-18E/F and F-16 Block 60 as well.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:22 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 20):
I salute you for your enthusiasm for Rafale. It's a fine aircraft, a pretty aircraft, and it's clearly ahead of many of its rivals in certain key areas.

Hi Jackonicko,
Just for the record I am not biased and have equal enthusiasm for both Typhoon and Rafale. ...I have to think both aircraft must be truly awesome to fly.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 20):
The point about the Flight International piece is that its overall tone was gushing and uncritical, that the pilot made a great deal of particular points that really weren't impressive,

Magazine test flights are always bound to be upbeat by nature of the beast, ...it seems odd to me that in this case some people apparently wish to discredit the writer.

Of most interest to me personally was the flight control system and the agility of the aircraft, both of which sounded most impressive and which the writer should have been able to make a valid assessment of without having flown the Typhoon or F-22.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 20):
the author had very little expertise when it comes to aircraft in this class, and of this generation.

He appears to have flown at least three other high speed (supersonic capable) fly-by-wire military aircraft.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 20):

Yes, of course Test Pilots are trained to evaluate new and unfamiliar aircraft, but the skills of a test pilot need to be constantly polished and kept up to date,

It's not only about training. You can expect an ETPS graduate to fly like he was born out of an egg shell and maintain his skills at a higher pitch and for longer than an average pilot.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 20):
if the Sea Harrier FRS.Mk 1 is the most up to date cockpit you've flown on operations, then clearly Rafale is going to look pretty darned wonderful

Bear in mind that from a handling point of view older aircraft are usually more difficult to operate than new types. Although I don't know I still very much doubt the Harrier was an easier machine to fly than either Rafale or Typhoon.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 20):
but wouldn't it be better to hear the opinions of someone who has actually flown on the frontline this century, or during the 90s, and who has sampled modern fighters like the F-16MLU?

...or you might not hear anything at all.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 20):
One certainly needs to understand the context in which the article was written.

The article is what it is and I was most interested to read it. I am more curious about the context in which the writer is being criticized.
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:02 pm

The critique accurately reflects informed reaction to the piece. RAF and USAF pilots I've spoken to felt that the piece dented Flight's credibility, and that Collins' conclusions were a joke, for all of the reasons outlined.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:34 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 23):
The critique accurately reflects informed reaction to the piece. RAF and USAF pilots I've spoken to felt that the piece dented Flight's credibility, and that Collins' conclusions were a joke, for all of the reasons outlined.

Not an easy position to defend when these other pilots are apparently not putting their own names on the bottom line.
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:10 pm

Collins is a civilian, free to say and write what he likes, and enjoys having a platform provided by a major magazine.

Serving pilots have no such freedom, and no such platform.

I think it's interesting and useful that on this occasion, their opinions have become known.

All that it does is provide useful balance to what was an unbalanced piece.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:52 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 23):
RAF and USAF pilots I've spoken to felt that the piece dented Flight's credibility, and that Collins' conclusions were a joke, for all of the reasons outlined.

Interesting, and I understand why they believe the article would dent FG's credibility (I tend to agree). But unless those pilots have flown the Rafale too, is their opinion of any more value than Collins' ?
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:32 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 25):

Collins is a civilian, free to say and write what he likes, and enjoys having a platform provided by a major magazine.

Serving pilots have no such freedom, and no such platform.

I think it's interesting and useful that on this occasion, their opinions have become known.

That's a very convenient excuse for guys with big mouths and sloping shoulders.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 25):
All that it does is provide useful balance to what was an unbalanced piece.

It was a stand alone account of a flight test that didn't actually weigh the Rafale against any other in service competitor, so where did the imbalance come in ???
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:15 am

It balanced unqualified, uncritical gushing by Pete Collins with a small dose of reality.

You might prefer to read gushing and inappropriately exaggerated enthusiasm - I prefer truth, and am grateful to those who've given enough information to get a bit closer to the truth.

People who bother to look at the Combat Aircraft piece will now be aware of the Flight pilot's lack of relevant experience, and will be able to read an informed insight into some of his conclusions.

People will be able to see that this was a 'flawed flight test' - rather that the 'Fantastic flight test' trumpeted by the thread originator.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:21 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 28):
People who bother to look at the Combat Aircraft piece will now be aware of the Flight pilot's lack of relevant experience, and will be able to read an informed insight into some of his conclusions.

Or people might just wonder why there is such a determined agenda to discredit an ETPS graduate and former Red Arrow pilot.
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Fri Dec 04, 2009 12:29 pm

Collins is an ETPS graduate from the 80s who has NO operational experience of modern multirole fighters (yes he's flown supersonic jets operationally, but not FBW-equipped, let alone equipped with a glass cockpit or 'proper' HOTAS).

His military test flying career ended almost 20 years ago.

He has no experience of clearance/assessment/’operational fitness for purpose’ testing.

Rafale seems to have been the first Combat jet he has flown since the Harrier.

Key examples of Rafale's performance that he highlighted as being worthy of note are not notable by modern standards.

To point this out does not represent a 'determined agenda' to discredit Collins.

All of it is information which puts Collins' gushing and embarrassingly over fulsome praise in context, and the interested neutral reader would be glad to be properly informed.

The Test Pilot is supposed to be a rigorous and informed judge, whose critical faculties are finely honed and regularly sharpened. Collins' Rafale piece was not rigorous, he was not informed (did not have relevant experience), and his critical faculties were clearly...... 'blunt'. The piece read more like advertorial than editorial, and did not leave the reader properly informed.

Only a die hard fan would resent and object to information which results in him or her being more fully informed.

You profess "for the record" that you are "not biased" and that you "have equal enthusiasm for both Typhoon and Rafale." (No-one's talking about Typhoon here, so that's a strange thing to say). You say that what interests you most is: "the flight control system and the agility of the aircraft."

You judged that these "sounded most impressive" (by comparison with what? A Harrier GR3? Do you think that's surprising?) and sugggested that "the writer should have been able to make a valid assessment of (these) without having flown the Typhoon or F-22."

I disagree. In assessing flight controls and agility, a relevent basis for comparison is ESSENTIAL. If you put a lifelong transport pilot in a Rafale, he'd come up with much the same conclusions as Collins did. Great PR copy for Dassault, but hardly educational or informative for the unbiased reader.
 
flagon
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:40 pm

Hi Jackonicko

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
Rafale seems to have been the first Combat jet he has flown since the Harrier



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
You judged that these "sounded most impressive" (by comparison with what? A Harrier GR3? Do you think that's surprising?)

I thought he had also flown the Mirage 2000?

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
You profess "for the record" that you are "not biased" and that you "have equal enthusiasm for both Typhoon and Rafale." (No-one's talking about Typhoon here, so that's a strange thing to say)

Well, not that strange actually, I am sure a lot of people who criticize this article have in the back of their mind the comparison with the Typhoon...

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
If you put a lifelong transport pilot in a Rafale, he'd come up with much the same conclusions as Collins did. Great PR copy for Dassault, but hardly educational or informative for the unbiased reader.

I tend to agree with that to be honest, beside the last sentence in the article sounds a bit over the top and somewhat insincere, however I think there is enough very good sources of information on the net to enable people to figure out how reliable this Flighglobal article is, without having to rely on the poor quality Combat Aircraft article you refer to.
Stephane
 
Jackonicko
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Fri Dec 04, 2009 6:38 pm

I wasn't counting an aircraft he flew only on his ETPS course. Had he had an exchange tour, that would be another thing.

As to the quality of the articles, the Combat Aircraft piece gave straightforward, accurate, balanced information and quoted a current serving Test Pilot with relevant experience. That strikes me as being better than the 'low quality' Flight piece that we're arguing about, to be honest.

Moreover, it drew attention to weaknesses that many people had not spotted - including the OP who labelled it a 'Fantastic flight test'.
 
ferrypilot
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RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:34 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
To point this out does not represent a 'determined agenda' to discredit Collins.

All of it is information which puts Collins' gushing and embarrassingly over fulsome praise in context, and the interested neutral reader would be glad to be properly informed.

And yet you continue to describe his Rafale article in a manner that is most likely to give offence to both Collins and Dassault.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
The Test Pilot is supposed to be a rigorous and informed judge, whose critical faculties are finely honed and regularly sharpened. Collins' Rafale piece was not rigorous, he was not informed (did not have relevant experience), and his critical faculties were clearly...... 'blunt'.

Rather silly to inflict those criteria on a magazine article.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
Only a die hard fan would resent and object to information which results in him or her being more fully informed.

Guess this is me we are talking about now. ...Not a die hard fan of any aircraft that I haven't personally flown. Nor do I have any feelings of resentment about anything you have said. I simply think you have misjudged this issue.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
You profess "for the record" that you are "not biased" and that you "have equal enthusiasm for both Typhoon and Rafale." (No-one's talking about Typhoon here, so that's a strange thing to say). You say that what interests you most is: "the flight control system and the agility of the aircraft."

Yes.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
You judged that these "sounded most impressive" (by comparison with what? A Harrier GR3? Do you think that's surprising?) and sugggested that "the writer should have been able to make a valid assessment of (these) without having flown the Typhoon or F-22."

Yes I am happy to take Collins at his word on that. ...Won't be taking yours anytime soon or that of your ace at Boscombe Down (or wherever he is) until he has personally flown a Rafale.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 30):
I disagree. In assessing flight controls and agility, a relevant basis for comparison is ESSENTIAL. If you put a lifelong transport pilot in a Rafale, he'd come up with much the same conclusions as Collins did.

A life long transport pilot would have been very much over faced in the position Collins put himself in the front seat of that Rafale.

There is evidence on Flight's website that Collins has flown these other Fly-By-Wire types below. ...I think it is reasonable to say that at least three of them have a flight control system that is a relevant basis for comparison with the flight controls in Rafale.


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Jackonicko
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:54 am

Rafale is much more than an FCS.

To properly evaluate it, you'd need operational experience on a similar type, of the same broad generation, with similar avionics, cockpit and performance characteristics. F-16MLU, F-16E/F, JAS39, Super Hornet, Typhoon. Failing that, a tour on F-15C/E, F-16C, or F/A-18C would give some useful basis for comparison.

Harrier GR3, Sea Harrier FRS1 and Lightning does not.

One sortie in an aircraft does not constitute relevant experience, in my view.

And he's not 'my ace' at "Boscombe Down or wherever", since I didn't write the Combat Aircraft piece.

You might think that it's "silly" to expect an article in Flight International to be rigorous and informed, and for them to employ an author whose critical faculties are finely honed and regularly sharpened.

I do not, and I expect very much better from Flight.

You might be happy to be entertained by a gushing, unbalanced piece that reads more like advertorial than editorial, and may not mind being left with an impression that has not been properly informed.

I'd rather know the truth, thanks.

And so I welcome anything that presents 'the other side of the story' where an article's conclusions are in doubt, as they are in this case.

As to causing offence, Collins is a big boy, and he's put his name to this article, and is, I'm sure, as happy to take the bouquets as he is to take the brickbats. And nothing in the Combat Aircraft piece is anything other than straightforward factual comment, and some opinion that can only be classed as fair comment, so he shouldn't be offended by that.

And I don't think I've done any more than repeat what the Combat Aircraft piece said.

As to Dassault, it's an article that has been criticised, and the way in which that article was written. There has been no criticism of their aircraft.

[Edited 2009-12-05 03:56:36]
 
ferrypilot
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:19 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:58 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 34):
You might think that it's "silly" to expect an article in Flight International to be rigorous and informed, and for them to employ an author whose critical faculties are finely honed and regularly sharpened.

I do not, and I expect very much better from Flight.

It's seems most likely that Collins built the bridges himself to get his hands on that Rafale and which can only be construed as a unique opportunity. As such the majority of professional aviators are bound to understand the obvious constraints of evaluating an unusual and complex military aircraft in a single 1hour 25minute flight. In that context alone Collins article is most interesting and it is a great credit to him that he has produced such a detailed and fluent account of the flight under those circumstances.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 34):
And he's not 'my ace' at "Boscombe Down or wherever", since I didn't write the Combat Aircraft piece.

Be glad of the fact and notice the editor of Combat Aircraft's words below and appearing next to the article on his website, ..."clearly distancing himself from that specific article".

...............................................Quote.................................................

Rafale opinion report
Good morning,
Our new online opinion report from Jon Lake has caused something of a reaction from some readers.
We invite views and opinions from authors and appreciate that not everyone will always agree with these. These opinion pieces do not represent the views of the editor or the publishers and are not statements from Combat Aircraft [...]
................................................Quote................................................

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 34):
And nothing in the Combat Aircraft piece is anything other than straightforward factual comment, and some opinion that can only be classed as fair comment

It reeks of something, ...envy, jealousy or perhaps an ulterior motive. As such it does not do the main critic (the unnamed test pilot who apparently has not actually flown a Rafale) any credit. Whereas Collins clearly likes to build bridges this unknown ace clearly likes to bust them down.
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:55 am

Seldom have I seen so much value laden, judgemental and hysterical over reaction in a single post.

Nor so much speculation.

And this on top of your sneering attempts to personally attack and undermine the credibility of the authors and their sources ("big mouthed and with sloping shoulders", sarcastic use of the term ace) with NO factual basis for doing so. Yes, Collins has been criticised, but only because his actual, factual experience was clearly inadequate to let him do the job properly. There has been no speculative attack on him, and no attack on his character or motivation.

It doesn't seem likely at all that "Collins built bridges himself" - Flight were offered the trip, and they then asked Collins to do it for them, because he is their current TP, having replaced John Farley.

I don't blame Collins for accepting. I guess I blame Flight for not asking (or having) someone more qualified.

You say: "It reeks of something, ...envy, jealousy or perhaps an ulterior motive. As such it does not do the main critic (the unnamed test pilot who apparently has not actually flown a Rafale) any credit. Whereas Collins clearly likes to build bridges this unknown ace clearly likes to bust them down."

It does nothing of the sort. If anything, it 'reeks' of someone wanting to put a calm, rational statement out in the public arena to balance what was an almost hysterically gushing article. Isn't it exactly what free speech is for?

It 'reeks' as coming from an up-to-the-minute insider who knows modern fighters inside out, but who has to maintain anonymity, rather than from a long retired bloke who doesn't need to worry about such things.

What envy, jealousy or ulterior motive are you suggesting?

Collins clearly likes to write something that comes close to advertorial, and which lacks the most basic journalistic neutrality, and to ladle on the superlatives without restraint. Yes it's detailed and yes it's fluent, but it's also misleading and overly gushing.

The unknown 'ace' (your word) clearly likes to calmly and evenly point out fact and truth.

What exactly does he say that you think ought to be censored or suppressed? That isn't true or a valid and interesting piece of expert analysis?

I don't blame Jamie Hunter for caveating the piece - the hysterical reaction from some people, and their ability to misread this as some kind of attack on Rafale (especially French Rafale fans) makes that entirely understandable.

Neutral readers, and especially professional aviatiors, will see the Combat Aircraft piece for exactly what it is - a welcome addition to a debate and one which addresses a grave flaw (a gushing enthusiasm, lack of balance and clear lack of relevent experience) in the Flight article. I think that John and Marcus (and their sources) have done us a great service.

Anyone objecting to the CA piece (that aims only to correct misapprehensions that could arise from the deeply flawed FI article) must surely either have some personal stake or bias, or must be very insecure?

Again it's an article that has been criticised, and the way in which that article was written, and not an aircraft.

[Edited 2009-12-05 19:01:54]

[Edited 2009-12-05 19:03:40]
 
ferrypilot
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:19 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:56 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 36):

Seldom have I seen so much value laden, judgemental and hysterical over reaction in a single post.

Nor so much speculation.

And this on top of your sneering attempts to personally attack and undermine the credibility of the authors and their sources ("big mouthed and with sloping shoulders", sarcastic use of the term ace) with NO factual basis for doing so.

...Ah yes that would be the pilot with no name and who hasn't actually flown Rafale.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 36):
It doesn't seem likely at all that "Collins built bridges himself" - Flight were offered the trip, and they then asked Collins to do it for them, because he is their current TP, having replaced John Farley.

Collins had test flown two other Dassault aircraft for Flight articles prior to the Rafale. ...Do you seriously think Dassault would have invited him back to fly the Rafale if they didn't like him or thought he wasn't sufficiently qualified ??????

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 36):
I don't blame Collins for accepting. I guess I blame Flight for not asking (or having) someone more qualified.

And that would be judgmental wouldn't it ?

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 36):
It does nothing of the sort. If anything, it 'reeks' of someone wanting to put a calm, rational statement out in the public arena to balance what was an almost hysterically gushing article. Isn't it exactly what free speech is for?

The Combat Article is calculated to detract in almost every single word and sentence from Collins writing. ...Ultimately it is a negative quantity that serves no purpose.
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:29 pm

You say: The Combat Article is calculated to detract in almost every single word and sentence from Collins writing. ...Ultimately it is a negative quantity that serves no purpose.

I'm surprised that someone who professes to be neutral, and to not be biased in favour of Rafale, should see it that way.

To me, it looks calculated not to contradict every word of Collins' piece, but to do two things.

1) To highlight the shortcomings in Collins' experience (these are not made clear - even by implication - in the article). This is vital, as the casual reader might assume and expect that Flight would employ a TP who was current, and whose operational experience fitted him ideally for the task he was given.

Remember that Collins said that: "It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown." It's therefore vital for the reader to know exactly which combat aircraft he had ever flown (and which were forming the basis of his comparison) - eg Harrier GR3, Sea Harrier FRS1 and Lightning.

It was even more important that the reader should understand that the judgements made were being written by someone who has never flown a modern fighter operationally.

2) It highlighted specific shortcomings in the piece - occasions where Collins implied that particular features or performance characteristics were extraordinary, when in fact they were routine.

It does seem to be intended to 'detract' from one of Collins key themes, however, and that was his concluding thought.

Collins concluded that:
"If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

No serious military pilot would ever make such a claim without having some in-depth knowledge of the alternatives. Collins clearly has no such knowledge.

I spoke to an RAF Typhoon pilot about this on Friday, and he laughed at what he called:
"ex RAF Wing Commanders who last flew the Harrier GR3 stating that they would rather go to war in Rafale than with any other platform out there. I'd prefer the F22 myself, but each to their own."

And however good Rafale is, no serious analyst or military aviator would favour it over F-22 or F-35, and many would favour Gripen, F-15E, Super Hornet or Typhoon.

The Combat Aircraft counter responded quite calmly and very fairly that the concluding superlatives were "more journalistic than (they were) real conclusions and recommendations". The unnamed pilot suggested that the evaluation had been "cursory", and expressed incredulity that Collins would risk his life in any combat situation based on the evidence of what he saw.

FAIR COMMENT! This was a gushing and amateurish conclusion by Collins, and it deserved to be highlighted.



Combat Aircraft has attacked some specific points in what Collins wrote, and has made simple, factual, comments about his actual experience but has refrained from attacking Collins' character and motivation.

You have done the opposite, attacking the characters and questioning the motives of the authors and especially of their sources, while studiously ignoring the actual specific points they made. This is a typical tactic of Rafale fanboys, who inevitably attack the person, rather than the content of what they actually say.
 
ferrypilot
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:19 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Dec 06, 2009 7:52 pm

I am inclined to think that if a psychologist was asked to give consideration to the Combat Aircraft article it would be determined that the unnamed test pilot "who has not flown a Rafale" is nevertheless unreasonably focused on discrediting Collins testimony about his flight of the aircraft. ..."That person appears quite strongly to have an axe to grind for Collins".
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:06 pm

And there you go again......

Ignoring the substantive points made and again resorting to ad hominem attacks on those who have dared to write something that contradicts the great Rafale love-in.

I am inclined to think that it's not the unnamed Flight Test insider who has an axe to grind, nor that needs psychological help.
 
arthuro75
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:38 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:58 pm

regardless of the content you can't say that JL article is neutral. It is a tribune for BAE to answer Collins article which is to my mind a good flight test ecxept the conclusion which is too controversial and a little bit oversimplistic to my mind.

Nothing against the fact that the article is not neutral...It is BAE right to give its point of view but to think that JL article is neutral is a joke. If the aim of that article was to give a full picture then he would have looked for an answer from dassault or other aircraft manufacturer. At the dubai airshow that should have been a very easy task.


About Collins article I tend to agree that the conclusion is perhaps a little bit oversimplified and that spoils the test a little bit.
But I also think the way many people interprete it is a little bit childish in the way that they immediately think "my aircraft can kill yours" in a typicall pissing contest when modern air warfare is nowadays mostly about air to surface. (99,999999%)
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:06 pm

Arthuro,

Thank you for your courteous input.

I can't answer for the authors, but surely the point of the Combat piece was not to be balanced itself, but was intended to provide a balancing counterpoint to the unbalanced piece in Flight?

It appears only online, as an opinion piece, and is intended to answer another article, it isn't a magazine article in its own right.

It's much more akin to a blog entry than a magazine article.

Moreover, it's not an article about Rafale (where balance and Dassault's input would of course have been valuable) but is a piece about another article, and about the way in which it was written.

In this case, we can assume that Dassault's PoV, and the case for Rafale, is given in full in the Collins piece.


Ferrypilot,

What a surprise. Another personal attack which AGAIN fails to address any of the substantive points made by the Combat piece or by me.
 
ferrypilot
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:19 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:11 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 28):
It balanced unqualified, uncritical gushing by Pete Collins with a small dose of reality.

You might prefer to read gushing and inappropriately exaggerated enthusiasm - I prefer truth, and am grateful to those who've given enough information to get a bit closer to the truth.

People who bother to look at the Combat Aircraft piece will now be aware of the Flight pilot's lack of relevant experience, and will be able to read an informed insight into some of his conclusions.

People will be able to see that this was a 'flawed flight test' - rather that the 'Fantastic flight test' trumpeted by the thread originator.

You've changed your tune!
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:31 am

No change of tune from me, Ferry.

Reply 28:

The Combat Aircraft piece balanced the unqualified, uncritical gushing of Flight's 'flawed flight test' with a small dose of reality, and in doing so gave enough information to get a bit closer to the truth. It highlighted the Flight pilot's lack of relevant experience, and provided an informed insight into some of his conclusions.

Reply 48:

The Combat Aircraft piece provided a balancing counterpoint to the unbalanced piece in Flight.

My point remains the same. Combat Aircraft did us a favour by providing context that the Flight piece lacked. It highlighted the author's lack of relevant experience and highlighted some of the sillier conclusions he made. It wasn't about Rafale per se, but was about the shortcomings in Flight's coverage.

And I note that we've seen no change of tune from you, either, you're still playing the man and not the ball.
 
ferrypilot
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:19 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:23 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 44):
No change of tune from me, Ferry.

Oh well I beg to differ.

...I think that here you are in full steam ahead to "God Save The Queen and the F-35"

:-

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 28):

It balanced unqualified, uncritical gushing by Pete Collins with a small dose of reality.

You might prefer to read gushing and inappropriately exaggerated enthusiasm - I prefer truth, and am grateful to those who've given enough information to get a bit closer to the truth.

People who bother to look at the Combat Aircraft piece will now be aware of the Flight pilot's lack of relevant experience, and will be able to read an informed insight into some of his conclusions.

People will be able to see that this was a 'flawed flight test' - rather that the 'Fantastic flight test' trumpeted by the thread originator.

Whereas here you seem to be backpedaling to "La Marseillaise"

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 42):
Arthuro,

Thank you for your courteous input.

I can't answer for the authors, but surely the point of the Combat piece was not to be balanced itself, but was intended to provide a balancing counterpoint to the unbalanced piece in Flight?

It appears only online, as an opinion piece, and is intended to answer another article, it isn't a magazine article in its own right.

It's much more akin to a blog entry than a magazine article.

Moreover, it's not an article about Rafale (where balance and Dassault's input would of course have been valuable) but is a piece about another article, and about the way in which it was written.

In this case, we can assume that Dassault's PoV, and the case for Rafale, is given in full in the Collins piece.

 
Jackonicko
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:19 pm

I haven't mentioned the Queen, or the F-35, and my points have not changed.

This isn't about 'knocking' Rafale, and NEVER HAS BEEN! It's about supporting an online blog piece pointing out real flaws in an article in the world's most respected aviation magazine.

The latter reads like over-enthusiastic and gushing advertorial, and was written by someone who did not have the experience base to justify what he wrote.

And yet you continue to drag the debate off topic by over-personalising it and by refusing to deal with the real issues.

I don't really blame you - as there is nothing in the Combat Aircraft that anyone can actually argue with - it's all pretty simple, factual stuff, pointing out flaws in the Collins piece, and highlighting Collins' actual experience, and pointing out the areas where he lacks experience.
 
ferrypilot
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:19 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:07 am

(The words below comprise text quoted exactly from the Combat Aircraft article and that seeks to discredit former Wing Commander Peter Collins in his ability to produce an article for Flight magazine on the Rafale. …For Airliners.net moderators it is my firm belief that no copyright can be claimed over the unknown critics words which appear outside brackets below. As in this paragraph all my own words appear inside brackets. …ferrypilot)

“He makes much of the fact that he flew front seat with 90 minutes cockpit familiarization
(Bound to be interesting, but the critic fails to see that)

- as if this was an unusual attribute that somehow demonstrates the greatness of the Rafale……….
(Illusory)

“This is not the case – Test Pilot training is to do exactly that for many aircraft. RAF test pilots routinely fly fighter types like this on one or two sortie evaluations, including the Su-27 Flanker, F-14, F15, F-16 and F/A-18……..
(Now the critic has flipped the coin to justify his own agenda and doesn’t seem to realize that actually he is crediting Collins with the knowledge and training that he would otherwise have us believe is compromised, …in other words the observation is self defeating)

“The article then moves on to the Test Flight itself, beginning with Pre-mission planning. Overall this was a very simple sortie profile,
(Irrelevant, but the critic is making an issue of the fact to create a negative highlight)

and his comments are hardly incisive
(Illusory)

“350 kt, in full afterburner at 35 degrees nose up is not that impressive - at that angle Typhoon will go Supersonic! Note that he was initially only allowed to fly A/S FCS laws!
(Seeking to detract from Collins abilities by inferring Collins not equal to handling Rafale in A/A laws)

The quoted turn performance (mild buffet at 4.5 g and dry power and a sustained 5g at 350 kts needing 10 deg nose down pitch) is less than startling -our test pilots could do as well in an F-15 19 years ago when they assessed it at the end of the ETPS course. The acceleration (taking approximately 10 seconds to go from 200-500 knots) is good
(The critic is tempted to pay a compliment here)

But so it should be for a twin engine fighter at that weight and altitude.
(But really he would prefer not to do so and takes it away again)

“Roll rates were clearly assessed at 1 g - a better evaluation would have been at elevated g or AoA as a combat capability - noticeably missing in his test.
(Let’s remember this is for a magazine article and Collins as a guest pilot not necessarily at liberty to go yanking the machine around and exposing it to a lot of rolling g with an external fuel tank hanging underneath)

“At 25,000 ft he went supersonic in a shallow dive - he does not say what power he used - if it was using afterburner, this is not great SEP (specific excess power)
(If it was? …By use of the word “if” the critic creates another negative, illusory and completely pointless observation and that is intended to reflect on the Rafale aircraft)

He made no comments on radar handling or as to what range the TV was used at. He treated pitch sensitivity as an indication of how agile the aircraft is
(It has long since been a substantive guideline to an aircrafts maneuverability in pitch and that many aviators can actually relate to very well)

– and this is bad Test Pilot analysis
(Writer thinks he has justified himself and now sticks the knife in).

The assessment of the AAR laws was cursory. His comments about the tail chase were similarly lacking - he could be comparing this to a Hawk and not another advanced aircraft
(Illusory)

“Two approaches in Auto-throttle mode say little about the aircraft,
(The critic is making no allowance for Collins intelligent efforts to assimilate operation of an unfamiliar machine)

and Collins made no mention at all of flight path stability and the ability to rapidly correct a poor line up from decision height
(The machine has been flying for a very long time in the hands of French test pilots and so it is highly unlikely there is any problem here and especially as the aircraft is cleared for carrier operations!)

-both essential TP tests for approaches.
(So again we have another negative observation that is completely pointless)

“Achieving 1 hour and 25 minutes with 5.3 tonnes of fuel (needing a centre line tank) and landing with 500 kg after the profile described says to me that the aircraft is not that different from the competition when it comes to range/endurance/fuel consumption.
(Which competition?)

“He is right in saying that he ‘only scratched the surface of the sensor and weapon capabilities'
(Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and tends to further highlight the critics obvious intention to discredit Collins. …And 1.25minutes in an unfamiliar aircraft for the purpose of a magazine article is bound to have some limitations)

That explains his claim to be 'fully at home in the aircraft, retaining full situational awareness.'
(Sarcasm again and now the critic believes he has fully asserted his agenda and denied Collins credibility as a test pilot)

“The evaluation was rather cursory and the concluding superlatives are more journalistic than real conclusions and recommendations.
(This person really cannot know to what extent or otherwise Flight International’s editorial staff have added to or taken away from Collins writing)

If he would risk his life in any combat situation based on the evidence of what he actually saw...... words fail me!”
(A vague and lofty assertion that holds no water, …which government does he know of that is allowing it’s soldiers or airmen to choose their own weapons during times of conflict. …This unknown pilot’s words have indeed failed him).

(I do not doubt that in his past the critic has shown great prowess as an aviator, however, there is a quality that is sadly missing from his writing and that is evident in spades in the writing of the man he is attacking. ...And according to his own account the critic has not actually flown a Rafale).
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:32 am

Mate, you are breaching copyright.

That form of words is undoubtedly Lake's, Massalla's, or Combat Aircraft's and your quoting it en masse goes beyond fair use.

And more importantly your lofty and fatuous claims that various things are 'illusory' or 'pointless' are wrong, and serve only to demonstrate your own lack of understanding, and utter lack of qualification to comment.
 
ferrypilot
Posts: 623
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:19 pm

RE: Fantastic Dassault Rafale Flight Test Article

Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:48 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 48):
That form of words is undoubtedly Lake's, Massalla's, or Combat Aircraft's and your quoting it en masse goes beyond fair use.

The text quoted has been defined as written by a British military pilot and therefore any copyright over it lies with the British MOD who are in actual fact the party compromised by the test pilot critic.

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