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V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:30 am

I was reading in Navy Times not to long ago, and in NT, there was an article about the USN looking at V-22s as a replacement for our aging fleet of C-2 Greyhounds ( CODs), but a V-22 is a smaller a/c than a Greyhound. Now I wonder could a enlarge design of a V-22 be used as a Greyhound replacement, or could a normal V-22 replace a Greyhound?
 
rwessel
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Nov 12, 2009 5:14 am

Other than cost and being a bit short legged, a V-22 would make a plausible C-2 replacement. While in vertical takeoff and landing mode the V-22 can't match the C-2's cargo capacity, but in STOL mode it can carry more (in terms of weight at least). I also has the potential of being able to bring at least some lift capacity to non-carrier platforms.

Now I don't know if V-22 STOL takeoffs have been approved for the big flattops (a Nimitz should be plenty big), IIRC there were issues with that on the amphibs, at least at one point.
 
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STT757
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:16 pm

I think it would make a great C-2 replacement as it could transfer personnel and cargo between carriers and land without the need of a runway, it could also operate off LPD, LHD, LSD, LCC's and possibly CDG and DDGs.

It would also make a great ASW platform bridging the gap between MH-60s and the P-8, the spot the S-3 used to fill.
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:46 pm

Yeah, it seems to me that the V-22 might make a better E-2/E-3/S-3 replacement than it would for the CH-46.
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ebj1248650
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:53 pm

While the Navy might compromise on load lifting capability, would they do the same regarding the airplane's range?
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L-188
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:39 am

Seems like a good idea,

It would reduce the number of types carried on ship, and I don't think the carrying capacity is that big of issue.
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rwessel
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:49 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 5):
It would reduce the number of types carried on ship, and I don't think the carrying capacity is that big of issue.

Not really. The C-2s tend not to stay on the carriers too long anyway, and usually call a land base home (although there are always exceptions). Besides, it's a modified E-2, so having one on board isn't really introducing that much of a new type into the mix.

On the other side, AFAIK there are no current plans to regularly deploy V-22s on carriers (the amphibs, yes, but not the CVs).

But as I mentioned, if they (if they haven’t already) qualified the Osprey for STOL operations on the Nimitzs, it would actually be able to haul more weight than the Greyhound.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:20 am



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 6):
But as I mentioned, if they (if they haven’t already) qualified the Osprey for STOL operations on the Nimitzs, it would actually be able to haul more weight than the Greyhound.

They probably should qualify the V-22's for STOL ops on the CVN's, for various reasons (such as special operations).
 
Ozair
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:39 am

Defence News is reporting that the V-22 has won the USN COD replacement contract.

Breaking Defense obtained a Jan. 5 memo, signed by Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jonathan Greenert, and Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford. It stipulates that the Navy will buy four V-22s each year from fiscal 2018 to 2020.
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/01/n...v-22-ospreys-for-carrier-delivery/

This is the result several of us were expecting, especially after the V-22 had successful trials aboard CVN-75 and a redesigned F135 housing which allows the engine to be carried internally on the V-22.
 
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:07 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 8):
Defence News is reporting that the V-22 has won the USN COD replacement contract.

Breaking Defense obtained a Jan. 5 memo, signed by Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Jonathan Greenert, and Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford. It stipulates that the Navy will buy four V-22s each year from fiscal 2018 to 2020.
http://breakingdefense.com/2015/01/n...v-22-ospreys-for-carrier-delivery/

This is the result several of us were expecting, especially after the V-22 had successful trials aboard CVN-75 and a redesigned F135 housing which allows the engine to be carried internally on the V-22.


Hi mate,
Yes, I was expecting this as well...
I remember artists' impressions From about the of 80s of everything from Fokker F-28s to BAe 146s in US Navy colours landing on CVNs in the COD role, as replacements for Greyhounds. Then the US Navy chose the Greyhound to replace the Greyhound!
The Osprey is a logical replacement this time around, if there had to be a Greyhound replacement other than the Greyhound itself. It will be a tough gig for the Osprey, but the technology has matured and with the first export orders announced (Japan and Israel, although it seems the latter has already cancelled!), it seems the aircraft is going from strength to strength.
I would love to see Australia get some, for special forces, SAR/CSAR or just plain standard cargo/troop carriers, supplementing the mighty Chinooks. Probably won't happen, but I think it would be great. They would probably be useful in a 'COD' role with HMAS Canberra and HMAS Adelaide too.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
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ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sat Jan 17, 2015 3:33 am

I question how often COD has actually delivered complete engines to carriers. Not to say that it is never done. Surely someone will come along and say that it is. But I don't recall it being an issue.

What a carrier usually does is that they take a couple spares along for the trip and you have shops that fix them. Actually a spare part, even electronics, arriving on a COD would be extremely unusual. It's mostly mail. Coupled with the fact that carriers usually visit port every month or so, I can't foresee a very large need for COD to be delivering engines.

The only thing I can see as being a benefit with the V-22, and this is the big one, is that the V-22 can carry significantly heavier cargo from the carrier to other ships at a much longer distance. This could reduce the frequency of UNREPS, which ties ships up and reduces maneuvering flexibility.
 
studedave
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 10):
What a carrier usually does is that they take a couple spares along for the trip and you have shops that fix them.
Actually a spare part, even electronics, arriving on a COD would be extremely unusual. It's mostly mail. Coupled with the fact that carriers usually visit port every month or so, I can't foresee a very large need for COD to be delivering engines.

The only thing I can see as being a benefit with the V-22, and this is the big one, is that the V-22 can carry significantly heavier cargo from the carrier to other ships at a much longer distance.
This could reduce the frequency of UNREPS, which ties ships up and reduces maneuvering flexibility.

I only made 3 carrier Cruises and three small boy cruises, but here's what I know...

Parts routinely DO come aboard on the COD.
Not everything can be fixed at sea- no matter how many spares (and shops) you have.
So guess where the parts to fix the parts come from? Yup- they'd show up on the COD.

I'm a little confused about the UNREP comment.
Besides the supply ships- other ships rarely come along side the Carriers for an UNREP.
When a Carrier UNREPs it's about JP-5 more then anything else.
Do other supplies come aboard at the same time? Sometimes.
But helos are already doing most of that work.




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ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting studedave (Reply 11):
Parts routinely DO come aboard on the COD.
Not everything can be fixed at sea- no matter how many spares (and shops) you have.
So guess where the parts to fix the parts come from? Yup- they'd show up on the COD.

However, not entire engines, correct? I would imagine that engine components, which are much smaller, will fit in the current COD platforms.

Quoting studedave (Reply 11):
I'm a little confused about the UNREP comment.
Besides the supply ships- other ships rarely come along side the Carriers for an UNREP.
When a Carrier UNREPs it's about JP-5 more then anything else.
Do other supplies come aboard at the same time? Sometimes.
But helos are already doing most of that work.

If the carrier had a COD that arrived that carried mail and supplies meant for the escorts, they would be forced to unpack everything off the aircraft, repack them to be slinged, and have the escorts move closer in for helicopters to transfer the cargo. However, you are weight-restricted for VERTREP, and that depends on the exact helicopter and distance between ships. Otherwise, the escorts will have to pull alongside and perform UNREP alongside the carrier if the cargo can't be broken down any further.

With V-22, you have 15,000lbs of cargo lifting capabilities on the dual external hooks, and the V-22 can fly much further away from the carrier as well.
 
studedave
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:46 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 12):
However, not entire engines, correct? I would imagine that engine components, which are much smaller, will fit in the current COD platforms.

It'd be rare, but yes- big parts too. Entire engines? I doubt it, but every time I hear someone say 'never' I end up seeing it happen.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 12):
If the carrier had a COD that arrived that carried mail and supplies meant for the escorts, they would be forced to unpack everything off the aircraft, repack them to be slinged, and have the escorts move closer in for helicopters to transfer the cargo. However, you are weight-restricted for VERTREP, and that depends on the exact helicopter and distance between ships. Otherwise, the escorts will have to pull alongside and perform UNREP alongside the carrier if the cargo can't be broken down any further.

With V-22, you have 15,000lbs of cargo lifting capabilities on the dual external hooks, and the V-22 can fly much further away from the carrier as well.

What you describe is basically how it is done now- well 'cept for the slinging part.
Carrier Battle group ships are usually within helo range to one another.
And now that the NAVY is all MH-60Rs and MH-60Ss that range is a given.
As such- when a ship has enough mail/parts/people to pick up from the Carrier- they send a helo to go get it. Or another ship (and/or it's helo) gets it, and brings it to them.
We have helos that do this for a living.
When/if all else fails- the part/mail/person will just be waiting at their next port to be picked up.

Something like 80% of my 20 years in the NAVY was spent in helo squadrons- so I know this drill pretty well...




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ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:07 am

Quoting studedave (Reply 13):
What you describe is basically how it is done now- well 'cept for the slinging part.
Carrier Battle group ships are usually within helo range to one another.
And now that the NAVY is all MH-60Rs and MH-60Ss that range is a given.
As such- when a ship has enough mail/parts/people to pick up from the Carrier- they send a helo to go get it. Or another ship (and/or it's helo) gets it, and brings it to them.
We have helos that do this for a living.
When/if all else fails- the part/mail/person will just be waiting at their next port to be picked up.

Something like 80% of my 20 years in the NAVY was spent in helo squadrons- so I know this drill pretty well...

Good explanations, thanks.

Do you think that with the V-22 becoming the COD platform for the USN, do you foresee a decline in the helicopter cargo squadrons? Or do you think that some of the squadrons will convert to the V-22?

Either way, the USN is getting a much more flexible COD capability that allows COD to arrive on practically every ship in the USN's inventory.
 
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:10 pm

Once you get to a theater of operations like the Arabian gulf, not everything goes thru the carrier. The fleet activity in Bahrain schedules a daily pmc run to hit all the ships in theater regularly or even daily so the carrier is not the hub for cargo runs. Bahrain is.

Enroute and in transit cargo gets routed thru Diego garcia or Guam or pearl to get loaded onto the supply ship that is tasked to refuel the task force. So again the cargo hub is not the carrier. The cargo gets transferred from the supply ship directly to the end user during the connected refueling.

All a v-22 or c-2 would provide is a longer ranged capability to supply cargo from a land base. It wouldn't supplant or replace helo cargo ops. Unless the navy has decided to replace the MH-60s with v-22s

Range is usually not a consideration for vertreps. Where is distance between pickup to drop off is about 180feet to 3 miles. 2-3 helos can usually move about 200-300 pallets a hour during a replenishment.

[Edited 2015-01-18 07:14:54]
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studedave
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 14):
Or do you think that some of the squadrons will convert to the V-22?
Quoting Woodreau (Reply 15):
Unless the navy has decided to replace the MH-60s with v-22s

Let's hope cooler heads prevail, and that NEVER happens!!!

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 14):
Either way, the USN is getting a much more flexible COD capability that allows COD to arrive on practically every ship in the USN's inventory.

So long as they don't want to land- yes.

Quoting Woodreau (Reply 15):
Enroute and in transit cargo gets routed thru Diego Garcia or Guam or Pearl to get loaded onto the supply ship that is tasked to refuel the task force. So again the cargo hub is not the carrier. The cargo gets transferred from the supply ship directly to the end user during the connected refueling.

It does sometimes happen like that as well, yes.

One nit- DG isn't in the picture too much anymore since the Fleet is nowhere near it these days.
The VRC Det hasn't been there in decades, and now the VPs don't deploy there either.
Which is sad really- that place is one of the best kept secrets in the NAVY!!!




StudeDave
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ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:26 am

Do you also think that the lack of available airframes for C-2 re-manufacturing played a significant role in the decision? If the Navy wanted to increase the number of airframes to perform COD, the fact that the USN would not get more aircraft out of re-manufacturing would play a role. In fact, during the time they would be re-manufacturing aircraft, the USN would temporarily lose aircraft for long periods.

Also, if you go back to the article Ozair referenced, it does mention that USMC and USN commanders of amphibious groups found that using the V-22 to ferry troops and cargo around the group allowed the ships to conduct separate operations at ranges far greater than possible when the old CH-46 Sea Knight were their primary supply aircraft. Food for thought.
 
studedave
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 17):
Also, if you go back to the article Ozair referenced, it does mention that USMC and USN commanders of amphibious groups found that using the V-22 to ferry troops and cargo around the group allowed the ships to conduct separate operations at ranges far greater than possible when the old CH-46 Sea Knight were their primary supply aircraft. Food for thought.

Here's more food for thought~

The flight decks of the ships in a Gator Group are much larger then say a Cruiser or Destroyer or Frigate~ so those guys are bummin'. But they do usually have two helos of their own, so maybe they'll be okay.
We always got by with ours.





StudeDave
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:17 am

So this is confirmed? When should it be implemented?
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ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:31 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 19):
So this is confirmed? When should it be implemented?

It needs approval in the DoD's budget, but it should pass. First delivery to the USN would be in 2018, with 4 aircraft per year until 2020, and the birds will come from what would have been allocated to the USMC, with the USMC getting later build aircraft.

Quoting studedave (Reply 13):
It'd be rare, but yes- big parts too. Entire engines? I doubt it, but every time I hear someone say 'never' I end up seeing it happen.

Been poking around for more answers, and many current and former servicemen can't remember when they saw an entire engine brought in via COD.

Not that it mattered too much; the old TF-30 and F110 engines that were found on the F-14 were too long to fit inside a C-2 anyways.

Anyways, details of the V-22 loading an F135 has been demonstrated in mockup:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index...tion=com_content&task=view&id=2333



[Edited 2015-01-21 21:41:14]
 
ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:07 am

USN to purchase 48 V-22's for COD mission:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index...tion=com_content&task=view&id=2622

The V-22's will perform COD, SAR, and Special Ops among other missions. The USN is also looking at improving range by enlarging the wheel sponsons to increase fuel capacity.
 
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 21):

Looks like not only will it replace the C-2 but perhaps also the MH-53's as well in the mine sweeping role. Would be interesting to see a V-22 pulling a sled.
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:30 am

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 22):
Looks like not only will it replace the C-2 but perhaps also the MH-53's as well in the mine sweeping role. Would be interesting to see a V-22 pulling a sled.

It could also replace what the former S-3 Vikings used to offer in terms of anti-Submarine warfare.
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 23):

It could also replace what the former S-3 Vikings used to offer in terms of anti-Submarine warfare.

Roll that torpedo right off the aft ramp?

bt
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 24):
Roll that torpedo right off the aft ramp?

How many did the S-3s carry?
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ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 25):

How many did the S-3s carry?

4 MK-46 torpedoes.

I would also add that V-22's could become a permanent part of the air wing, not just as a visitor to the carrier like the current C-2's. For example, the V-22 can take over the tanker role, when they finish with the development of the IFR kit, relieving F/A-18 Super Hornet's from the mission.
 
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 26):
I would also add that V-22's could become a permanent part of the air wing, not just as a visitor to the carrier like the current C-2's. For example, the V-22 can take over the tanker role, when they finish with the development of the IFR kit, relieving F/A-18 Super Hornet's from the mission.

There's room to hangar several??
 
ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 27):
There's room to hangar several??

The Nimitz and Ford class carriers have the hangar height to allow them to bring a V-22 under decks. Furthermore, USN CVN's aren't exactly packed to the gills with aircraft; typical air wings today are 50-60 aircraft, when the CVN's can easily accommodate 90+ aircraft.


USS America (LHA-6) and USS Tripoli (LHA-7) also have the hangar height that allows them to bring a V-22 into the hangar and be opened up for maintenance, with the benefit of an overhead crane to assist in maintenance. Some V-22 maintenance, as I understand requires the nacelles in the vertical position.

The current amphibs can't do that; V-22 maintenance has to happen on the decks, exposed to the weather.

[Edited 2015-04-20 21:56:28]
 
angad84
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:15 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 24):
Roll that torpedo right off the aft ramp?

Why not? I'm sure a palletised delivery kit could be developed if necessary (ie: if USN decides the V-22 should do ASW)

Cheers
Angad
 
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:20 pm

These torpedoes are small enough now that I guess you can have hard points mounted to the fueslage.

How easy would it be to replace the aft ramp?

If you can swap out the aft ramp or modify it to include a torpedo door. Then a bomb/torpedo ejection system can be installed so they can "poop" it out the back end.

bt
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angad84
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 30):
so they can "poop" it out the back end

I want to see this happen. Can we do a kickstarter?

Cheers
A
 
Ozair
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:59 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 30):
If you can swap out the aft ramp or modify it to include a torpedo door. Then a bomb/torpedo ejection system can be installed so they can "poop" it out the back end.

Don't forget the need for a sonar buoy dispenser. I doubt the V-22 would use a dipping sonar and there is no point replacing the MH-60R. Keep a V-22 ASW variant around for longer ranged detection, tracking and engagement. I also think a hard point for a torpedo is better than ramp modifications for that size weapon.
 
angad84
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:11 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 32):
Don't forget the need for a sonar buoy dispenser. I doubt the V-22 would use a dipping sonar and there is no point replacing the MH-60R. Keep a V-22 ASW variant around for longer ranged detection, tracking and engagement. I also think a hard point for a torpedo is better than ramp modifications for that size weapon.

I still think the poop idea will be more fun, and therefore worth it.

Where would the hardpoints go? They're having a hard enough time putting a piddly little rocket pod beside the nose...

Sonobuoys could conceivably be dispensed from the belly port where the minigun is presently installed (on some/most/all MV-22s). I think a torpedo will be a bigger ask, but that is a pretty big hole, so I'm sure something could be rigged up.

Perhaps a universal ramp/chute system from the same port for buoys and torpedoes? (At least it keeps the pooping idea alive)

I've never been inside a V-22, so I don't know exactly how much space is available for operator stations, a sonobuoy rack and torpedoes (at least two). How many people do they have on an ASW H-60 or CH-53?


Cheers
A
 
ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:03 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 30):
How easy would it be to replace the aft ramp?

If you can swap out the aft ramp or modify it to include a torpedo door. Then a bomb/torpedo ejection system can be installed so they can "poop" it out the back end.

On the topic of armed V-22's dropping weapons off the aft ramp; the USMC and DARPA have tested arming a V-22 with rockets and missiles:

http://www.janes.com/article/50793/m...nched-weapons-during-gunship-tests

Quote:
The US Marine Corps (USMC) has tested the deployment of ramp-launched munitions from the Bell-Boeing MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor under wider plans to equip the aircraft with a gunship capability, it was announced earlier in April.

The tests, which were conducted in late March under the auspices of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency's (DARPA's) Persistent Close Air Support (PCAS) programme, saw an MV-22 launch both the Raytheon Griffin missile and the AeroVironment Switchblade loitering munition from tubes located on the ramp.

According to DARPA, the MV-22 launched an inert AGM-17 Griffin air-to-surface missile from a range of 9 km from the target, scoring a hit. No details pertaining to the Switchblade launch were released.

The trials of the two aft-firing munitions come on the back of a successful demonstration of the Osprey's forward-firing capabilities. In December 2014, another MV-22 fired a 70 mm rocket from a launch tube mounted on a 'cheek' fairing on the aircraft's left side, just beneath the pilot's side window.
Quoting angad84 (Reply 33):
How many people do they have on an ASW H-60 or CH-53?

On a MH-60R, 2 pilots and a sensor operator. With a V-22, they could probably expand that to a crew of 4, of two pilots, a sensor operator, and a tactical coordinator. Plenty of room too on the inside as well to add more people if needed.
 
angad84
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:28 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 34):
Plenty of room too on the inside as well to add more people if needed.

At the cost of weapons? (assuming internal storage/launch)

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 34):
On the topic of armed V-22's dropping weapons off the aft ramp; the USMC and DARPA have tested arming a V-22 with rockets and missiles:

Interesting work, but wouldn't a Harvest Hawk manage just fine? The V-22 is all about the range advantage over helos, but the C-130 already has that in spades.

Granted, one is more 'tactical' than the other, but in a full-blown air campaign, I'm sure there would be enough Harvest Hawks hanging around to be able to do strike missions just as easily as V-22s.

Cheers
Angad
 
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bikerthai
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 34):
On the topic of armed V-22's dropping weapons off the aft ramp; the USMC and DARPA have tested arming a V-22 with rockets and missiles:

It's a start. A Mark 54 torpedo is 10X heavier than these rockets.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 35):

At the cost of weapons?

For anti-submarine, you only need a couple of torpedoes or depth bomb.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 35):
The V-22 is all about the range advantage over helos, but the C-130 already has that in spades.

The speed advantage over helo's makes a big difference when chasing after submarines. The P-8A has shown that the faster you get to your search area, the smaller the area you have to search and the faster you can find that submarine.

The advantage over a C-130 is obvious . . . carrier deployable. For long range hunting, you have the P-8A.

bt
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angad84
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 36):
For anti-submarine, you only need a couple of torpedoes or depth bomb.

And sonobuoys and/or a sled? I could be wrong, but based on pictures and a cursory run around google, the V-22 might be a bit too cramped...

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 36):
The speed advantage over helo's makes a big difference when chasing after submarines. The P-8A has shown that the faster you get to your search area, the smaller the area you have to search and the faster you can find that submarine.

Sorry, there are a bunch of parallel discussions going on here.

ThePointBlank referenced a couple of land-attack munition trials, and I was responding only in the context of that (land war). For maritime purposes, of course, the C-130J loses out to the V-22.

There's nothing the V-22 can do over land that the C-130J can't do better, in my opinion. They all talk about the 'expeditionary' nature of the Marines and their MV-22s, but let's be honest, thee USMC doesn't generally wander into battle solo, so that's moot. If there are Marines fighting on the ground, odds are the military (any branch) can get a C-130J or something similar overhead, rendering a more heavily armed V-22 a little redundant. I don't disagree that the V-22 needs a little more punch than present, but I don't there's any need to go any more hardcore than, say, the level of firepower available on a MH-60L (DAP).

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 36):
The advantage over a C-130 is obvious . . . carrier deployable. For long range hunting, you have the P-8A.

Yeah, agreed. The V-22 as an ASW asset is certainly interesting.

Cheers
Angad
 
L-188
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:59 am

Quoting angad84 (Reply 37):
There's nothing the V-22 can do over land that the C-130J can't do better, in my opinion

A V-22 can land a lot shorter
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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N328KF
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:14 am

What I want to know is, when do we see the Ralph Peters version?

When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ThePointblank
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:46 am

Quoting angad84 (Reply 35):
Interesting work, but wouldn't a Harvest Hawk manage just fine? The V-22 is all about the range advantage over helos, but the C-130 already has that in spades.

It's the idea that since the V-22 was probably the one dropping the Marines off, it's the closest asset to provide support, and a more heavily armed version of the V-22 would also reduce the need to setup forward support locations for their attack helicopters.

Quoting angad84 (Reply 37):
And sonobuoys and/or a sled? I could be wrong, but based on pictures and a cursory run around google, the V-22 might be a bit too cramped...

What I envision is extension of the side sponsons that have the main landing gear forward to accommodate a single torpedo each. Rear ramp door is replaced by a sonar buoy dispenser. Internal consoles for sensor operator and tactical coordinator. Underneath, a surface search radar.
 
angad84
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:23 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
A V-22 can land a lot shorter

...

Quoting angad84 (Reply 37):
They all talk about the 'expeditionary' nature of the Marines and their MV-22s, but let's be honest, thee USMC doesn't generally wander into battle solo, so that's moot.
Quoting N328KF (Reply 39):
What I want to know is, when do we see the Ralph Peters version?

I don't know what that is, but 3 is better than two, so I want one!

Cheers
Angad
 
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bikerthai
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 40):
What I envision is extension of the side sponsons that have the main landing gear forward to accommodate a single torpedo each

On the same line, you can carve out part of the sponson's forward section to mount the torpedo conformally.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 40):
Underneath, a surface search radar.

The nose radome should be able to house the multi-function radar that can operate in surface search mode. Similar to how the P-8A search radar operates. They already have the camera pod under the chin.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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RE: V-22 As A C-2 Greyhound Replacement?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:45 pm

Quoting angad84 (Reply 41):
I don't know what that is, but 3 is better than two, so I want one!

It was a book written in the early 1990s, while the Osprey was still being developed. The book itself is speculative fiction. The standout feature of the tilt rotor in this book was that it was equipped with a railgun.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt

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