Arniepie
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EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:57 am

Together with the airshow, Dubai also hosted a major multinational exercise involving fighter assets from four nations.
So their we finally have it the Rafale , the Eurofighter and the Raptor go up against each other together with other interesting fighters like the most modern F16's , Arabian F15's and possibly some M2000's.

Sure most people here would give an arm and a leg to know the specifics on this one.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oon-make-surprise-appearances.html

Quote:
So with new orders for the Typhoon and F-22 not on the table in the UAE this week, why are they both here?

The answer is that not only has the UAE attracted the cream of the global aerospace industry to the Middle East this week, but it is also playing host to a major multinational exercise involving fighter assets from four nations.

In addition to the RAF and the USAF, the UAE air force is also exercising with military aircraft from France and Pakistan, with the manoeuvres being conducted from Al Dhafra, near Abu Dhabi.

The Typhoon on show is drawn from the RAF's 3 Sqn, based at Coningsby, Lincolnshire. The service has sent six of its aircraft to participate in the advanced tactical leadership course in the UAE. The unit also recently sent four aircraft to the Falkland Islands to begin providing air defence duties for the territory.

and, from the horses mouth , the new French AdlA chief, Jean-Paul Paloméros;
http://defensenews.com/blogs/dubai-a...nch-air-chief-jean-paul-palomeros/

Quote:
Q: Six Eurofighter Typhoons and six F-22s took part in the UAE military exercise. Did the Rafale take part?

A: Six Rafales took part in the exercise.

[edit post]
 
keesje
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:15 am

I wonder why this British test pilot & former Red Arrow pilot thinks the Rafale is better not only air to ground.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...assault-rafale-rampant-rafale.html
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Arniepie
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:48 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
I wonder why this British test pilot & former Red Arrow pilot thinks the Rafale is better not only air to ground.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

I fail to see how he could know, not having flown the EF, F22 or anything else that could be considered state of the art fighters like the AESA equiped F-16's, SuperHornets or latest versions of the Flanker and Fulcrum.
[edit post]
 
keesje
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:26 pm



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
not having flown the EF

Are you sure?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Arniepie
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:52 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
not having flown the EF

Are you sure?

Not 100% no, but I was lead to believe that apart from the Harrier , Tornado and M2000 , mr Collins was no longer involved in flying fast jets, certainly not the latest models.

If I'm wrong, which is very well possible, than it obviously indeed would reflect very positively on the Rafale vs the Typhoon.
[edit post]
 
TGIF
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:12 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Quoting ArniePie (Reply 2):
not having flown the EF

Are you sure?

This has been widely discussed over the internet and I have yet to see a source claiming he has flown any other of the latest high end fighters.


I'm very skeptical to the last sentence in his report: "If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

So in a hypothetical A2A combat against a F-22, he'd rather sit in a Rafale than an other F-22? No hard feelings about the Rafale, but it's not a 5th gen aircraft.

Quote:
The Typhoon on show is drawn from the RAF's 3 Sqn, based at Coningsby, Lincolnshire. The service has sent six of its aircraft to participate in the advanced tactical leadership course in the UAE.

What type of interactions between the three fighters might one see during a "advanced tactical leadership course"? Flying side by side or against each other?
 
dl767captain
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:39 pm

I still find the fact that Obama canceled the F-22 to be a stupid idea. I understand he want's to keep his campaign promises but he made that promise with little to no information about the project.
 
B777LRF
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:36 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 5):
What type of interactions between the three fighters might one see during a "advanced tactical leadership course"?

Some advanced level de-briefing, involving much gesturing and flapping of arms, coupled with inhalation of vast amounts of liquid courage. They might also go out and commit aviation inbetween bar rallying, but that's really just a side effect  Wink
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KPDX
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:12 pm

I'm not being biased at ALL. But seriously give me the F-22 or EF2000 anyday.
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Kukkudrill
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:57 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 5):
I'm very skeptical to the last sentence in his report: "If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

So in a hypothetical A2A combat against a F-22, he'd rather sit in a Rafale than an other F-22? No hard feelings about the Rafale, but it's not a 5th gen aircraft.

As a general rule, when you write an article on the basis of special access - be it a free stay in a hotel, a test drive of a new car etc. - you don't then trash your benefactors. Let alone if you get access to the controls of a high-performance jet fighter. Nothing to do with the qualities of the Rafale - it's just a widespread practice in the media.
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keesje
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:50 pm



Quoting KPDX (Reply 8):
I'm not being biased at ALL. But seriously give me the F-22 or EF2000 anyday.

Contradition Internio

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 4):
but I was lead to believe that apart from the Harrier , Tornado and M2000 , mr Collins was no longer involved in flying fast jets, certainly not the latest models.

He also flew recently KAI T-50, Aeromachi M311 & M-346's , PC21, Falcon 7X, Piaggo Avanti. Thats published. I cannot find an article on the EF..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
TGIF
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:59 pm



Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
Some advanced level de-briefing, involving much gesturing and flapping of arms, coupled with inhalation of vast amounts of liquid courage. They might also go out and commit aviation inbetween bar rallying, but that's really just a side effect

I had a feeling this story had a kind of tabloid touch to it, if you know what I mean. The publisher want the reader to believe some advanced areal acrobatic combat is taking place, when in real life it's more about boring meetings and showing each other power points.  Smile

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 9):
As a general rule, when you write an article on the basis of special access - be it a free stay in a hotel, a test drive of a new car etc. - you don't then trash your benefactors. Let alone if you get access to the controls of a high-performance jet fighter. Nothing to do with the qualities of the Rafale - it's just a widespread practice in the media.

It wasn't the overall positiveness about the Rafale I opposed to. I fully understand and agree to the 'general rule'. It was his final statement I found a bit too much. I can think of several analogies with hotels or cars where this would apply as well. A drag racer might be fantastic to drive in a straight line, but put it up against a nascar on an oval circut... you get the point  Smile
 
KPDX
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:38 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
Contradition Internio

Huh? Big grin

If what you meant was contadicting, I was meaning the F-22 or EF2000 over the Rafale anyday.  Wink
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keesje
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:55 pm



Quoting KPDX (Reply 12):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
Contradition Internio

Huh?

If what you meant was contadicting, I was meaning the F-22 or EF2000 over the Rafale anyday.

If you are not baised at all, why would you prefer the EF or F22 over the Rafale anyday?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ferrypilot
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:01 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 5):
I'm very skeptical to the last sentence in his report: "If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

Perhaps he's seen stuff like this and thinks the F-22 mght not be all it's cracked up to be - Quote is from Wikipedia:-

While attempting its first overseas deployment to the Kadena Air Base in Okinawa, Japan, on 11 February 2007, a group of six Raptors flying from Hickam AFB, Hawaii experienced multiple computer crashes coincident with their crossing of the 180th meridian of longitude (the International Date Line). The computer failures included at least navigation (completely lost) and communication. The fighters were able to return to Hawaii by following their tankers in good weather. The error was fixed within 48 hours and the F-22s continued their journey to Kadena.

It's a joke! ...Good job Jimmy Doolittle didn't have 5th generation machines on his way to Japan in 1942.  duck 
 
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autothrust
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:00 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 13):
If you are not baised at all, why would you prefer the EF or F22 over the Rafale anyday?

If i may answer that: Could it be that the Rafale has worse acceleration, worse climbing rate, worse thrust to weight ratio, worse avionics and sensors, lower service ceiling, worse AA weapons, worse turn rates and worse RCS??

Give it up, we all know you deny any facts when it comes to the Rafale. Its admirable how you defend it, maybe Dassault should hire you as publicity expert.  Yeah sure
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keesje
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:37 pm



Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
If i may answer that: Could it be that the Rafale has worse acceleration, worse climbing rate, worse thrust to weight ratio, worse avionics and sensors, lower service ceiling, worse AA weapons, worse turn rates and worse RCS??

Compared to the EF?

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 15):
Give it up, we all know you deny any facts when it comes to the Rafale. Its admirable how you defend it, maybe Dassault should hire you as publicity expert.

No, its an ex Red Arrows British test pilot that flew it, that's the issue  Wink

Anyway who knows.. http://blogs.frontierindia.net/index...9/rafale-evaluation-in-switzerland
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Francoflier
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:15 am

Oh great, another one of these threads... It reminds me of the Youtube video comments under any video showing any of these aircrafts.

Despite the pressing need for many to gauge these aircrafts up against another, for various reasons, but mainly missplaced national pride, the reality of it is that all 3 aircrafts were designed to fulfill different sets of specifications.

The F-22 was designed to be a superlative air to air superiority fighter integrating all the latest stealth technology, and with a design budget, purchasing and operating price to match, and it is.

The EF-2000 was designed to answer several European air forces' need for a new generation fighter with excellent air-air capability as well as the ability to deliver air-ground strikes, and it does.

The Rafale was designed specifically to answer the French Air Force's need for a truly versatile military aircraft that would be as competent in air defence as it is in an air-ground attack mode, reconnaissance missions, nuclear deterrence, etc..., all the while being available as a carrier based version as well. And it is.

After all, one of the main reasons France went its own way for its latest generation fighter was because the capability of the originally proposed Eurofighter differed from the country's need.
Seeing that all these aicrafts were designed to fulfill different missions, I'd rather leave the 'which is best' debate to overeager 13 year olds on youtube...
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TGIF
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:40 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 17):
Seeing that all these aicrafts were designed to fulfill different missions, I'd rather leave the 'which is best' debate to overeager 13 year olds on youtube...

So Peter Collins is the new 'overeager 13 year old' and Flightglobal is the new Youtube?  Wink
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:15 am



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 17):
Oh great, another one of these threads... It reminds me of the Youtube video comments under any video showing any of these aircrafts.

Despite the pressing need for many to gauge these aircrafts up against another, for various reasons, but mainly missplaced national pride, the reality of it is that all 3 aircrafts were designed to fulfill different sets of specifications.

The F-22 was designed to be a superlative air to air superiority fighter integrating all the latest stealth technology, and with a design budget, purchasing and operating price to match, and it is.

The EF-2000 was designed to answer several European air forces' need for a new generation fighter with excellent air-air capability as well as the ability to deliver air-ground strikes, and it does.

The Rafale was designed specifically to answer the French Air Force's need for a truly versatile military aircraft that would be as competent in air defence as it is in an air-ground attack mode, reconnaissance missions, nuclear deterrence, etc..., all the while being available as a carrier based version as well. And it is.

After all, one of the main reasons France went its own way for its latest generation fighter was because the capability of the originally proposed Eurofighter differed from the country's need.
Seeing that all these aicrafts were designed to fulfill different missions, I'd rather leave the 'which is best' debate to overeager 13 year olds on youtube...



Quoting TGIF (Reply 18):
So Peter Collins is the new 'overeager 13 year old' and Flightglobal is the new Youtube?

I am not trying to put words in his mouth nor do I know even who peter collins is but he is correct all 3 aircraft were designed with different missions in mind all 3 seem to be able to do their mission really well but to say the rafale is the better of the 3 is rediculous at best and sounds like a sales pitch knowing that it would be in drect comption with at least the euro fighter for future mideast contracts, I am taking the F-22 out of it for several reasons the biggest is that once the US is done buying there wont be any more made at least in the near future anyway. I didnt take it he was refering to Mr collins as a 13 year but sounded like he was one making comments on youtube about a product in a play sales pitch.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:30 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 18):
So Peter Collins is the new 'overeager 13 year old' and Flightglobal is the new Youtube?

Well, I don't know how his words somehow ended up on this thread (there is another thread about his article), but as said above, his views on the subject were certainly influenced by many factors, including the fact that he might be a tad out of touch with the current generation of fighters, and that Dassault would probably not have appreciated him saying anything else about the aircraft after giving him a free ride.

I agree with you that the factuality of his statement is certainly questionable. That being said, you will notice that my post had nothing to do with his article.

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 19):
well but to say the rafale is the better of the 3 is rediculous at best and sounds like a sales pitch

It probably was, in a way.
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TGIF
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:03 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 20):
Well, I don't know how his words somehow ended up on this thread (there is another thread about his article), but as said above, his views on the subject were certainly influenced by many factors, including the fact that he might be a tad out of touch with the current generation of fighters, and that Dassault would probably not have appreciated him saying anything else about the aircraft after giving him a free ride.

Keejse raised the question why Collins preferred the Rafale in other roles than A2G, and it derailed from there. I fully agree that Dassault wouldn't have been very pleased if the article didn't have a positive tone regarding the Rafale.

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 20):

I agree with you that the factuality of his statement is certainly questionable. That being said, you will notice that my post had nothing to do with his article.

Yes, I noted that and I fully agree on your whole argument in your original post. The three fighters were designed based on three different specifications and that’s why a can't understand his last statement in the article. None of the fighters are the best in every role. Therefore, I couldn't resist making the link between an 'overeager 13 year old' and Peter Collins.  

BTW, are there no spotters in UAE able to get all three fighters in one shot??

[Edited 2009-11-19 05:04:21]
 
ebj1248650
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:36 pm

Was not the Rafale optimized for the air-to-ground role and the EF optimized for the air-to-air role. Rafale does a good job in air-to-air and EF does a good job in air-to-ground but it's important to remember what each airplane is optimized for when conducting comparisons. With that said, it makes sense to compare the EF with the F-22A, regarding air-to-air, but leave the Rafale out because air-to-air is pretty much a secondary role for it, at least in service with the French Air Force.
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TGIF
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:44 am



Quoting B777LRF (Reply 7):
Some advanced level de-briefing, involving much gesturing and flapping of arms, coupled with inhalation of vast amounts of liquid courage. They might also go out and commit aviation inbetween bar rallying, but that's really just a side effect

Unfortunately it seems you were correct revealing the boring truth.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...xb09-sheikh-rattles-aermacchi.html

Quote:
The F-22s did not participate in ATLC. They were planned in as part of the exercise, then shortly beforehand they were withdrawn. Six jets were still deployed to Al Dhafra but they did not come out to play with the other boys and girls (OK, there were no girls). The USAF representatives at the show refused to acknowledge the aircrafts' presence or explain what they were doing in the UAE.

Why bring six fighters half way around the world and then let them sit on the tarmac? De-briefings, gesturing and flapping of arms as well as beer drinking is easily done with out the $200 fighters.

Could there be technical difficulties? Surly the F-22 have seen hot weather while flying around at Nellis. I had 41°C (106°F) when I visited Vegas this summer (although I didn't spot any Raptors  Sad )
 
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Francoflier
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:23 pm



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 22):
With that said, it makes sense to compare the EF with the F-22A, regarding air-to-air, but leave the Rafale out because air-to-air is pretty much a secondary role for it, at least in service with the French Air Force.

Not entirely true. The F-22 and EF-2000 represent 2 different levels of air superiority. Their capability isn't the same, neither is their development budget.

Wiki's article on the Typhoon has some interesting quotes on the subject from a USAF General who is one of the few persons who flew both types. (towards the end of the article)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

As for the Rafale, it is true that it was designed with more compromises in mind than the Eurofighter. That being said, it is an aircraft that must still be able to roughly measure up to the EF in terms of Air-Air missions. It is not a secondary role for it, rather one of the many it has to fulfill adequately.
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keesje
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:10 pm

I think in the nineties the french thought air to ground / long complex missions would become more important.

The Rafale was a national program so could be adjusted in that direction. They switched single seat orders for more dual seaters, added air-ground systems / weapons and conformal fuel tanks for this new operational environment, just like LM did on the F16 and Boeing on the F15 and F18.

The big multi nation political Eurofighter programs wasn't that agile & EF Tranch III is a financial / political / operational result (the RAF & Germans want real bombers but politcal / industrial pressure and old commitments push it through, a bit like the US C-17s..)

I think the french took the right decision in hindsight.



How many air to air vs patrol/bombing missions have been done during the last decade.. I think upgraded Tornado's will continue to fly for 20 yrs..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ferrypilot
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:58 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 5):
I'm very skeptical to the last sentence in his report: "If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

So in a hypothetical A2A combat against a F-22, he'd rather sit in a Rafale than an other F-22? No hard feelings about the Rafale, but it's not a 5th gen aircraft.

Apparently Peter Collins flew Harriers in the Falklands War and was also a Red Arrows pilot. Furthermore when a British military pilot refers to himself as a test pilot in writing and in Flight International (the most respected aviation magazine in the World) I take that to mean that he is a graduate of the "Empire Test Pilot's School" ...In other words he is no ordinary pilot and you can take it for granted that "he can fly like hell" and write about it succinctly afterward.

Personally I thought his article on the Rafale was fluid, very informative and extremely well written. As well I noticed that he had actually criticised the Rafale in some areas where he was not entirely happy. Overall however, Peter Collins has certainly left me with the impression that in skilled hands and in a close in fight the Rafale might very well out manoeuvre an F-22 for a Fox2 type kill.

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I also think it reasonable to surmise that the Rafale with its facility to fly as a carrier fighter may actually be the most all round capable fighter in the World and perhaps the Royal Navy should have chosen it.
 
flagon
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:04 pm



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 22):
Was not the Rafale optimized for the air-to-ground role

Being french living in the UK, I've always been very surprised when I read in all the magazines that the Rafale was optimized for air to ground role, I don't know how this definition of the Rafale ended up generally adopted by all the anglo-saxon magazines, but just to let you know, this is definitely not the the way this plane is defined in the country that gave birth to it... Anyway, I guess there is not that much we can do about that. Cheers.
Stephane
 
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autothrust
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:12 pm



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 24):
That being said, it is an aircraft that must still be able to roughly measure up to the EF in terms of Air-Air missions

It doesn't. I know this is hard to understand that for some people.

The Rafale does not even feature super cruise, similar thrust weight ratio(to neither EF or F-22) or similar RCS so how you come to the conclusion it does measure up to the EF in the A/A role??

At the Typhoon Meeting 08 seven Typhoons won against 27(F-18s,F-16s, etc..)!! other planes without losses.

And as you quote Wikipedia:

The aviation magazine "Flug Revue" reports that in 2008 German Typhoon were pitted against French Rafales. The results are said to be "extremely gratifying", the main difference being the "much greater thrust of the EJ200 engine"

Don't get me wrong, IMO the Rafale is a excellent platform for A/A and A/G missions but it doesn't master any of those roles.
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ferrypilot
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:59 am



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 28):
The Rafale does not even feature super cruise,

Where would you super cruise to in Switzerland? ...or are you thinking the Swiss Air Force would like to super cruise around in circles?
 
TGIF
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:15 pm



Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 29):
Where would you super cruise to in Switzerland? ...or are you thinking the Swiss Air Force would like to super cruise around in circles?

What has that to do with anything? This thread isn't about the Swiss F-5 replacement, there's another one for that... and since when are Switzerland interested in the F-22?

Point is, the Rafale certainly doesn't measure up with the F-22 in the A2A role, and most likely not with the EF.
 
flagon
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:59 pm



Quoting ArniePie (Thread starter):
The Rafale does not even feature super cruise

This has been said many times I think since the Rafale lost the competition in Singapore, I admit I don't realy understand this statement which seems to rely mainly on rumors regardless to common sense.

Just look in the internet and you'll find that sort of quotes:

From 2 Pilots of the 12F Squadron onboard CdG
«The Rafale is ideal for the job, stresses one of the two duty pilots.
It can climb to 40,000 feet in under two minutes and accelerate very rapidly to supersonic speed. More significantly, it can super-cruise in dry power, even with four missiles and a belly drop tank. Endurance is excellent too, and we can stay airborne up to two hours with one tank.»

Besides the demonstrator Rafale A did its first flight equipped with an F404 (left engine) and an M88-2 (right) the 27th of February 1990, it reached mach 1,4 without the use of the reheat. I struggle to understand how the following versions C, B, and M of the Rafale would have suddenly lost their supercruise capability...

Regarding RCS: it is very difficult to find any accurate information on any aircraft since this is obviously generally classified. On top of that RCS measurement is complex since it is highly dependent on the angle the aircraft makes about the direction of the Radar wave. So basically you can only speculate and maybe spot any obvious features that the aircraft has that makes it good or not regarding RCS. RCS reduction features can clearly be seen on the Rafale airframe (F117-like panel edges on the canards, wings and various locations on the fuselage), which is not the case on the EF2000 unless I missed something, in which case I apologise...The golden rule is to prevent any sharp edges from being perpendicular to the aircraft longitudinal axis - to that respect the F-22 has a fantastic design. On the EF2000 the big mistake is the very nice rectangular air intake...
I don't want to speak to fast but I really doubt that the RCS consideration has been taken into account early enough on the EF2000 program, which has suffered - everybody knows - from a lot of intertia due to politic and all that.

Regarding thrust to weight ratio, it is a simple calculation, I don't see any significant difference between EF2000 and Rafale, unless I have he wrong numbers (it can happen...)

Regarding the Typhoon Meeting 08, this is an impressive performance, however you just need to be a bit carefull about these flashy numbers and realize that there is an obvious advertising interest behind. I also read the article about the 2-2 dogfight between a german eurofighter and a french rafale, the german pilot who did these 2 kills also admits a better control of the Rafale in low speed, where the eurofighter could not follow due to its automatic recovery system taking control at a higher low speed than the Rafale, plus he admits that the Rafale defense system (spectra? not mentioned) would have been highly efficient in a real combat scenario.

To summarize it is not all as simple as you suggest it is.
Stephane
 
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zeke
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:31 pm



Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 26):
Apparently Peter Collins flew Harriers in the Falklands War and was also a Red Arrows pilot. Furthermore when a British military pilot refers to himself as a test pilot in writing and in Flight International (the most respected aviation magazine in the World) I take that to mean that he is a graduate of the "Empire Test Pilot's School" ...In other words he is no ordinary pilot and you can take it for granted that "he can fly like hell" and write about it succinctly afterward.

Pete graduated from ETPS in the late 80s about a year after he ejected from the Red Arrows Hawk at RAF Scampton. He also worked on the JSF when he was the Officer Commanding of the Aerospace Research Test SQDN at RAE Bedford before leaving the RAF to work for Fokker.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
Arniepie
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:01 pm



Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):

Flagon, I think something went wrong with the quoting function.
I didn't comment on the Rafale and supercruise.

no harm done  Wink
[edit post]
 
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autothrust
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:46 am

Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):
It can climb to 40,000 feet in under two minutes and accelerate very rapidly to supersonic speed. More significantly, it can super-cruise in dry power, even with four missiles and a belly drop tank.

The Typhoon can do all those things faster. The super cruise ability of the Rafale in AA config. is marginal.
From idle to 13000 meter at 1,5mach the Typhoon needs 70 sec. The Rafale can climb with max 305m/s while the EF does with 317m/2(officially) and beats all planes except F-22. Do some reasearch.

Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):
RCS reduction features can clearly be seen on the Rafale airframe (F117-like panel edges on the canards, wings and various locations on the fuselage), which is not the case on the EF2000 unless I missed something

You missed something. The EF has extensive RAM's on such exposed parts like canards and engines intakes. The frontal RCS was tested by BAE and it achieved the desired goal of a frontal RCS 4x lower then the Tornado. Which is approx. 1/2m2 (exact data is of course classified)

Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):
The golden rule is to prevent any sharp edges from being perpendicular to the aircraft longitudinal axis - to that respect the F-22 has a fantastic design. On the EF2000 the big mistake is the very nice rectangular air intake.

While this is true, the EF intakes are in no way a mistake. The intakes are shaped to hide the engine compressor blades. Other measures to reduce the aircraft's radar cross section are:Sloped intake sides, the fuselage recessed medium range weapons, radom design, etc.

Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):
I don't want to speak to fast but I really doubt that the RCS consideration has been taken into account early enough on the EF2000 program,

You doubt because you don't know the EF program?

Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):
Regarding thrust to weight ratio, it is a simple calculation, I don't see any significant difference between EF2000 and Rafale

You haven't done the simple calculation. Just compare the engines:


Snecma M88-2-E4
Maximum Thrust:
11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner

EJ-200
13,500 lbf (60 kN) dry thrust
20,000 lbf (90 kN) with reheat

http://www.snecma.com/spip.php?rubrique40〈=en

Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):
Regarding the Typhoon Meeting 08, this is an impressive performance, however you just need to be a bit carefull about these flashy numbers and realize that there is an obvious advertising interest

No advertisement, care to take a look at the German air force website.

http://www.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luf...0001/W27CWL9K208INFODE/content.jsp

Quoting Flagon (Reply 31):
To summarize it is not all as simple as you suggest it is.

Indeed, but it seems to be simple to claim things and have obviously no idea about the EF at all.

[Edited 2009-11-24 17:00:59]
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
flagon
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:33 pm



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 33):
Flagon, I think something went wrong with the quoting function.
I didn't comment on the Rafale and supercruise.

Cheers mate, sorry about that...

Autothrust, I like to think that we can have this conversation without getting too emotional. See my comments below:

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
The Typhoon can do all those things faster. The super cruise ability of the Rafale in AA config. is marginal.
From idle to 13000 meter at 1,5mach the Typhoon needs 70 sec. The Rafale can climb with max 305m/s while the EF does with 317m/2(officially) and beats all planes except F-22. Do some reasearch.

OK

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
The EF has extensive RAM's on such exposed parts like canards and engines intakes.

I guess you'd agree that's the minimum you can expect when designing a plane against low RCS requirement. Besides my impression is that RAM's are off-course nice to have, nevertheless this is not miracle solution and wouldn't in my opinion solve a major RCS structural contributor, it would at best alleviate it...

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
The intakes are shaped to hide the engine compressor blades.

....and this is I guess the very minimum you'd expect...
I must admit I struggle to fundamentally differentiate an Eurofighter intake from a conventional plane one, like F15, Mig29 or so, apart from the fact that the engine compressor is hidden. And I have always been in the understanding that box type air intakes dominate the signature. Don't get me wrong, I am not questioning what has been achieved on the EF in terms of RCS - although I tend to be a bit skeptical about that type of "official" data which summaries in a couple of numbers something as complex as RCS - but I am keen to understand since it seems like little attention has been paid to details on this plane. Overall I do think that the stealth concept looks more "integrated" - let's say from the early stage of the program - in the Rafale than in the EF.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
the fuselage recessed medium range weapons

That type of design looks more driven by aerodynamic than RCS consideration, as already seen in previous fighter generation like Tornado, F18, F14,... It does help reducing RCS thought...

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
You haven't done the simple calculation. Just compare the engines

Apparently I got the data wrong

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
You doubt because you don't know the EF program?

That's not the point, ref. my first comment

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
No advertisement, care to take a look at the German air force website.

http://www.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luf...t.jsp

Looks interesting, it will just take me a while to translate...
Stephane
 
tommytoyz
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:28 pm



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
No advertisement, care to take a look at the German air force website.

Th page and story you linked to does not mention the Rafale in any way.......FYI
 
spudh
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:12 pm



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
You haven't done the simple calculation. Just compare the engines:


Snecma M88-2-E4
Maximum Thrust:
11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner

EJ-200
13,500 lbf (60 kN) dry thrust
20,000 lbf (90 kN) with reheat

I was always of the belief the the EF had a much better T/W ratio than Rafale but doing the maths its not as clear cut. Taking empty weights of 9,500kg for the Rafale C and 11,000kg for the Typhoon. This gives an empty T/W ratio of 1.636 (EF) v 1.592 (Raf) in afterburner and 1.09(EF) v 1.053(Raf) in military.

Spin it any way you want but the only difference in mission weight will be in the weight of the pilots and individual weapons coupled with the volume of fuel chosen for the mission.

Give both of them an intercept at 100nm carrying say 4 missiles each and it would be interesting to see the T/W ratio at contact. You would expect the less powerful Rafale to burn less fuel than the EF therefore it should hold an advantage in fuel fraction which should make up for the slight difference in T/W ratio. The EF has a marginally lower wing loading too but its hard to know which has the lower drag airframe.

looking at the above its hard to see the EF holding much more than a marginal paper advantage over the Rafale Air to Air, certainly nothing as clear cut as the F22 has over either.
 
flagon
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:38 pm



Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 34):
The Rafale can climb with max 305m/s while the EF does with 317m/2



Quoting Spudh (Reply 37):
Taking empty weights of 9,500kg for the Rafale C and 11,000kg for the Typhoon



Quoting Spudh (Reply 37):
This gives an empty T/W ratio of 1.636 (EF) v 1.592 (Raf) in afterburner and 1.09(EF) v 1.053(Raf) in military

It is worth noticing that with similar T/W ratios and neglecting aerodynamic forces (which is obviously not a very valid assumption...) the lighter aircraft should better accelerate in climb whilst the heavier will obviously accelerate better in a dive. It would be interesting to know if the reality is in line with this simplistic approach.
Stephane
 
Acheron
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:45 am



Quoting Spudh (Reply 37):
Spin it any way you want but the only difference in mission weight will be in the weight of the pilots and individual weapons coupled with the volume of fuel chosen for the mission.

I think the problem might be AutoThrust anti-Rafale bias, more than a mathematical problem.
 
keesje
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:50 am

I think there are many things the Typhoon can do that the Rafale can't. The other way around : serious air to ground capabilities & integrted 2 man long strike capabilities with everything that comes with it and sea operation.

As I stated ealier IMO the Rafale was adjusted a decade ago while the Typhoon stayed on course.



IMO europe should hold further investments in the Typhhon other then keeping it up to date for intercept and invest the money in the development of something stealth, 2 man with a lot of range, instead of trying to make a cat bark.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flagon
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:00 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 40):
I think there are many things the Typhoon can do that the Rafale can't

That's for sure, main shortfall of the Rafale to me being the relatively limited detection range of its radar. Some people say this is not so much of an issue if it is used with an AWACS + data link + Meteor, which is by the way probably the most sensible way of doing an interception, since in this scenario the Rafale would remain discrete. The thing is it is not easy to say to a potential customer that if he needs to use the full potential of its Rafale, he also needs to buy an AWACS...

Quoting Keesje (Reply 40):
As I stated ealier IMO the Rafale was adjusted a decade ago while the Typhoon stayed on course.

adjusted... maybe in some way, however my understanding is that the Rafale was designed right from the beginning to replace all aircrafts in service in the french Navy and Air Force. Hence an omni-role concept from the outset. One adjustment I can think of however is stealth integration in the design, but again it seems like this adjustment came relatively early in the program. The Rafale demonstrator did its first flight in July 1986. At the same time the french defense minister Andre Giraud was in the USA to meet its counterpart Caspar Weinberger which showed him ...the F117, which at the time officially did not exist. It is claimed that after this, the french minister put the pressure to incorporate as much stealth as possible into the Rafale.

I quite like the picture with the Exocet. Never seen that configuration before.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 40):
IMO europe should hold further investments in the Typhhon other then keeping it up to date for intercept and invest the money in the development of something stealth, 2 man with a lot of range, instead of trying to make a cat bark

There probably is already a lot of money spent in upgrading Tornados + invested in the F-35....

Where did you get that FB22 picture from? Never seen that "rocket" before...

Сheers mate
Stephane
 
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Francoflier
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:28 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 40):
and invest the money in the development of something stealth, 2 man with a lot of range, instead of trying to make a cat bark.

I think that would be a waste of taxpayer's money. It would be expensive, complex, and serve a limited role. The future of air combat will probably belong to unmanned air vehicles.

Advanced stealth is very nice, but in my opinion stealth technology will always be playing cops and robbers with radar technology. You may invest billions in an extremely stealthy aircraft which will need to stay in your inventory for decades only to realize the next generation of ground or air based radars will render it detectable in less that 10 years.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Areopagus
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:27 pm



Quoting Flagon (Reply 41):
Where did you get that FB22 picture from?

It looks more like an FB-23, which Northrop Grumman was shopping around a few years ago.
 
arthuro75
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:41 pm

Three sources about the rafale very good performance in the UAE :


[QUOTE]The first account reports made this morning by a French Rafale pilot reported a superiority of the French fighter Typhoon RAF during confrontations made in recent weeks, the UAE.

The first confonfration committing four against four Typhoon Rafale ended with a 4-0 in favor of French.

Despite, explains it, the carriage of rafale air-air weapons were fictitiously degraded, says one. After degrading them a little bit more, the Rafale has yet won, 3-1.

The Rafale has faced several times in F22, but in a limited visual combat air to air.

It would have been in the HUD of the American fighter only once, it is said too.

The Rafale, it is understood, has greatly improved its reputation, especially among drivers UAE.

It thus several time repeatedly demonstrated its superiority in all the spectacular missional in detecting sites of ground-air missiles that had not been updated by U.S. F-16CJ.

Furthermore, the front sector optronics (OSF) has also enabled the detection and identification up to 40 kilometers an asset which prevents the aircraft exposed for visual identification at 3-4 km, which is Necessary for most other types of aircraft.

Similarly, within a minute, a Rafale has fired six AASM on as many targets, at ranges of several tens of kilometers, while also firing three missiles air-air Mica. Back up, that day, a UAE driver ...[QUOTE]

http://lemamouth.blogspot.com/


[QUOTE]According to a reliable French blog, RAF typhoons, Dassault Rafales and LMT F-22s did indeed face off on several occasions during last month’s ATLC in the UAE. As we are still awaiting for the sacrament of confirmation about this news, the website has chosen to selectively highlight very positive events for Rafales, as apparently reported by an AdA pilot.

- Rafale vs Typhoon: several engagements took place. Of those reported by the website, it’s 7-1 for Rafale, with degraded AA weaponry.

- Rafale vs F-22: Furballs, and in visual range only. Rafale went reportedly only once on the wrong side of F-22’s gunsight. Again, we do not know how many times, RoEs, etc…

- Rafales also reportedly performed SEAD missions and were able to detect missile sites that had not been detected by F-16CJs.

- The Rafale famed OSF was able to “silently” detect targets from a distance of 23 NM.

- Finally, another Rafale demonstrated its multirole capabilities by firing 6 Sagem AASM on as many targets and simultaneously firing 3 MICA AA missiles. The website also reports that the backseater that day was an Emirati pilot.

So, once we carefully qualify the source, and take into account the selectivity of the information presented in this case, it nevertheless remains a very impressive demonstration of Rafales’ capabilities in a fairly realistic environment. Now let us wait for the other side of the story to get the full picture.[QUOTE]


http://g2globalsolutions.com/review/?p=3114


[QUOTE]-"We've learnt that Rafale pilots may have done "a few small exercises outside of the official programme", against Typhoons, and that they were "satisfied by the result", but that the F-22s didn't want to play (BVR): "The Americans are still quite cautious about using the F-22, since they don't want to reveal its true performance and radar signature".

-"So who "won" the F-22 or the Rafale? Well, no, it's more complicated than that ... And the journalist who had verified and yet intersected the info should have sought yet another confirmation."[QUOTE]

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-mon.../1648/0/402465
 
arthuro75
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:01 pm

Half of the prestigious Hunting 01,007 Squadron Provence has made the trip to the United Arab Emirates during the year DPAC

This exercise brings together international combat aircraft the most prestigious. To name a few: The Eurofighter "Typhoon", the F22 "Raptor" and ... Rafale.

I can not remain silent any longer my pleasure drivers who are out there demonstrating the capabilities of the French flagship aircraft, are really raising high the colors of France, winning magnificent victories against other nations.

Also note that the weekly press point of the defense ministry took place today (and will be published on their site monday)
The order of the day include a debriefing about the UAE ATLC

http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-ro...27/154660-atlc

from a rafale captain blog. You can try to ask him questions.
 
TGIF
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:14 am



Quoting Arthuro75 (Reply 44):
http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-mon.../1648/0/402465



Quoting Arthuro75 (Reply 45):
http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-ro...27/154660-atlc

I'm afraid something has happened to the last two links. They're not working for me.
 
 
norcal
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:06 pm



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 47):
Remarkable results. How could they be explained (vs. Typhoon)?

Can you summarize the details in English please?  Smile
 
NoUFO
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RE: EF2000 Vs Rafale Vs F22Raptor In Dubai

Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:03 pm



Quoting NorCal (Reply 48):
Can you summarize the details in English please?

From what I understand (I only read the first report, and my French could stand some practice), the F-22 dit not really battle against Typhoons and Rafales to withheld the aircraft's performance and that of its radar.
Rafales however did some mock fights against Typhoons, and the results for the French pilots were "satisfying".

However, one needs to know that "satisfying" does not mean "good". A German magazin quoted Typhoon pilots the results were "extremely gratifying", which is a lot closer to "good" or "very good" than just "satisfying".
Anyway, we will never know for sure, other that we, the west, are fortunately sitting in the same boat.
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