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golfradio
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India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:01 pm

The contract for Midair Refuellers has been canceled by the Indian Finance Ministry claiming that the selected tanker the A330 MRTT is expensive. Looks like the finance ministry is opposing the deal because the lowest bid that satisfies the requirements has to be selected and that would mean the IL78.

You got to love the bean counters.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_centre-cancels-contract-for-midair-refuellers-for-fighter-aircraft_1331383

Excerpts from the news article

Quote:
Defence ministry sources said the contract was cancelled after the finance ministry raised several objections to the acquisition. The ministry’s objections, sources in the military said, were due to a lingering L1 (lowest item in a contract) syndrome in the government.

...

Under the norms of contract of government of India, the cheapest item that satisfies the parameters must be bought.


[Edited 2010-01-06 07:03:09 by golfradio]
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kc135topboom
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:15 pm

Does this mean the Indian tanker compitition will reopen, possibly to the IL-78, KC-767 and A-330MRTT?

India had 6 A-330MRTTs on order. So will EADS rebid the contract, lowering the total costs?

If the cancelled is completed, this reduces the number of A-330MRTTs, of all designations to just 28 aircraft.

I believe the UK is the largest customer of the A-330MRTT with 14, Saudia Arabia is now next with 6, Austriala is next with 5 and the UAE has 3 on order.
 
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golfradio
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:15 pm

I have a feeling this contract will go into the deep freeze unless EADS is willing to renegotiate which, I believe is not likely.

I doubt the IAF is going to conduct the field trials and technical evaluations again. The A330 MRTT was selected as the best fit for the role. So there is no point in considering the KC-767 and IL-78 again unless something has changed on either of those two aircraft.
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Revelation
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:26 pm



Quoting Golfradio (Reply 2):
The A330 MRTT was selected as the best fit for the role. So there is no point in considering the KC-767 and IL-78 again unless something has changed on either of those two aircraft.

Nothing has changed, and IL-78 is still cheaper than A330 MRTT.

Mebbe Boeing should offer to pull some KC-135Es out of the desert and re-engine them to KC-135R standard?

Not sure if that'd be cheaper than IL-78 though.
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par13del
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:23 am

X-Files fan here so cue up the conspiracies.
1. India has issues with the price and delays on their new a/c carriers, public is already outraged over the cost, so throw in some IL78 tankers with some inflated prices and stand firm in the public eye on the carrier problems. Wink here, wink there.

2. India is looking to buy some P8 Poseidon, Boeing is already talking about being aggressive with this order, throw some 767 tankers in with the bid, offsets on the P8 and good to go.

3. Does the EU have any other products being purchased by India, is the Tiger helicopter still in the running? If not, EADS / Airbus has to find a way to lower the price of their product to match that of the IL78.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:32 am



Quoting Par13del (Reply 4):

2. India is looking to buy some P8 Poseidon, Boeing is already talking about being aggressive with this order, throw some 767 tankers in with the bid, offsets on the P8 and good to go.

Boeing, the ball is in your court, do not frig it up. Advice, stay away from retired Air force Generals this time. Rely on your product and reputation.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:59 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
Quoting Par13del (Reply 4):

2. India is looking to buy some P8 Poseidon, Boeing is already talking about being aggressive with this order, throw some 767 tankers in with the bid, offsets on the P8 and good to go.

Boeing, the ball is in your court, do not frig it up. Advice, stay away from retired Air force Generals this time. Rely on your product and reputation.

That could be an option.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
Mebbe Boeing should offer to pull some KC-135Es out of the desert and re-engine them to KC-135R standard?

That could be an option, too.

In addition there may be another option for the IAF, if they are willing to look at used airliners. There are plenty of used B-767-200ER/-300ERs and A-310-300s avalable on the market. The A-310 already has an A-310MRTT kit avalable, and one could be developed for the B-767 (I believe IAI was looking at this for Poland, and possibly Israel).
 
GolfOscarDelta
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:37 am

Considering the current Indian govt/administration's record being pro US, i wouldn't be surprised if the KC-767 was chosen for the tanker and the F/A-18 for the MRCA.

[Edited 2010-01-08 21:38:15]
 
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zeke
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:25 am



Quoting Golfradio (Thread starter):
Looks like the finance ministry is opposing the deal because the lowest bid that satisfies the requirements has to be selected and that would mean the IL78.

The requirement was to provide refueling capability for both the current and future fleet, the IL-78 is not boom capable and hence unable to refuel the P-8I.

The IL-78 does not meet the requirements, but it is cheaper.
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comorin
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:45 pm



Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 7):
Considering the current Indian govt/administration's record being pro US

I think India and the US are now joined at the hip economically, and eventually strategically too. let's not forget we were both former English-speaking colonies!

Militarily, its not about a particular aircraft or carrier anymore, it's about which system you want to plug into. Disparate systems are an organization's biggest nightmare, but the opposite of that is single source dependency.

I would like to think that India's future may be acquiring NATO compatible assets and a far- fetched hope that she may eventually join NATO.

So to those of you who worry about jobs going to Bangalore, see, the dollars are coming right back in a big way  Wink
 
Venus6971
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:05 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
In addition there may be another option for the IAF, if they are willing to look at used airliners. There are plenty of used B-767-200ER/-300ERs and A-310-300s avalable on the market. The A-310 already has an A-310MRTT kit avalable, and one could be developed for the B-767 (I believe IAI was looking at this for Poland, and possibly Israel
).

I think maybe we could sell them some KC-135's in storage currently at AMARC, Boeing or Tinker getting the contract to update them to a current standard of the customers chosing, it will simplify their logistics to ensure that everything works together along with their recently inked contract for 10 C-17's. Singapore and Turkey seem to be having nothing but good luck with their KC-135's.
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keesje
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:36 pm

I do not think there was ever a contract. EADS never claimed it. In India you have a contract when their money is on your bank account.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
474218
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:47 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
Mebbe Boeing should offer to pull some KC-135Es out of the desert and re-engine them to KC-135R standard?

Just one problem, Boeing does not own the KC-135E's stored in the desert?

Quoting Zeke (Reply 8):
The IL-78 does not meet the requirements, but it is cheaper.

A Cessna 150 is even cheaper, but then it doesn't do the mission either.
 
comorin
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:53 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
In India you have a contract when their money is on your bank account

That should read 'offshore' account...  Smile

Here is an article in the Times of India that mentions the contract even though the article is about the C17 deal:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...al-with-US/articleshow/5425123.cms
 
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Revelation
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:55 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 12):
Just one problem, Boeing does not own the KC-135E's stored in the desert?

Indeed, but it's pretty clear to me the US government doesn't want anything to do with them so Boeing could get them for a song.
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GolfOscarDelta
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:02 am



Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
I would like to think that India's future may be acquiring NATO compatible assets and a far- fetched hope that she may eventually join NATO.

I'm not too sure about that, didn't India start the whole Non Aligned Movement to avoid being a part of either the Soviet block or the NATO.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
So to those of you who worry about jobs going to Bangalore, see, the dollars are coming right back in a big way

Don't forget the 50% offset clause that all Indian military deals have, so its still going back to Bangalore (HAL mostly) at least half of it.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:05 pm



Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
let's not forget we were both former English-speaking colonies!

Well, in the case of the US, that was 229 years ago, and the US and India were never English colonies at the same time.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 12):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
Mebbe Boeing should offer to pull some KC-135Es out of the desert and re-engine them to KC-135R standard?

Just one problem, Boeing does not own the KC-135E's stored in the desert?



Quoting Revelation (Reply 14):
Indeed, but it's pretty clear to me the US government doesn't want anything to do with them so Boeing could get them for a song.

Boeing could buy up the KC-135Es from the USAF, but I just don't see them doing that. It would be easier and faster for the USAF just to sell the KC-135Es and convert them at TIK themselves. Of course Boeing does have a boeing KC-135 plant in San Antonio that could also do the conversion and update work opn the KC-135E.
 
comorin
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:14 pm



Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 15):
'm not too sure about that, didn't India start the whole Non Aligned Movement to avoid being a part of either the Soviet block or the NATO

That was Long Ago and Far Away. We used to sing 'Hindi-Chini Bhai Bhai' as kids...  Smile

India's now in bed with the US and Israel (a threesome!) because of common strategic and commercial interests. Corporate America is in love in Bangalore and Gurgaon, and the Next Big Thing in India is Manufacturing.

Quoting GolfOscarDelta (Reply 15):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
So to those of you who worry about jobs going to Bangalore, see, the dollars are coming right back in a big way

Don't forget the 50% offset clause that all Indian military deals have, so its still going back to Bangalore (HAL mostly) at least half of it

Good point, but fifty cents on the dollar isn't bad, and that's a good number of jobs created in Long Beach for ex-software developers!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:25 am

Is there a Renegotiated deal on the cards  Smile
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Lumberton
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:59 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 18):
Is there a Renegotiated deal on the cards

Something similar to what Brazil is doing to France WRT the Rafale's price? Perhaps.
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cmb56
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:56 pm

There is something there that I do not understand. The Finance Ministry is vetoing the 330MRTT purchase because it costs too much but yet there has just been a tentative order/request placed for C-17s. If the 330 gave their finance people sticker shock wait till they see the tab for the C-17.
 
Lumberton
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:20 pm



Quoting CMB56 (Reply 20):
If the 330 gave their finance people sticker shock wait till they see the tab for the C-17.

How so? If this number is correct, why should they have "sticker shock"?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...ALeqM5hOw0yW35usLvQdUtmlLMosNekTBQ

Quote:
The comments came as senior defence ministry officials confirmed to AFP the scrapping of the 60 billion rupee (1.31-billion dollar) tender for the six refueller planes, which has upset the technology-starved Indian airforce.

For 6 tankers that's well over $200 million per aircraft. Perhaps they got wind of EADS' low ball bid for the USAF tanker the last go around and want the same pricing?  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
comorin
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 15, 2010 1:59 am

As a layman, I would think that India's air force, especially it's missile capabilities, is the most important Defence Arm. The good old days of gentlemanly Tank and Infantry battles are over.

My humble view is that India's neighbors need to know that belligerence will be met with devastating consequences. Since I don't see how the Navy or Army can make that happen, it has to be trip-wire missile defense all along it's border.

Politically, are India's politicians too fat and flabby to make this happen? I hope not. As India gets richer, she has to defend her assets and industrial base.

I'd really like to know what you military types think.

So getting back to the Midair Refueling issue, I read in the Indian press (Times of India) that the move away from Airbus may be part of a shift to an overall US-leaning strategy. India could become a huge Boeing play over the next decade.
 
Lumberton
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:16 am



Quoting Comorin (Reply 22):
So getting back to the Midair Refueling issue, I read in the Indian press (Times of India) that the move away from Airbus may be part of a shift to an overall US-leaning strategy. India could become a huge Boeing play over the next decade.

I think its far too early to draw that conclusion based on some hardware purchases.
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golfradio
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:46 pm

Why are there two different contracts with different restrictions? The MRTT tender seems to carry the L1 restriction which stipulates lowest cost but the article also mentions the tender for the VIP helicopter purchase which does not have that restriction. If both tenders are military purchases by the MoD, I would expect them to have identical restrictions.

But this would not be the first time that the Government has vetoed a selection by the actual Armed Forces in favor of a political choice.
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Lumberton
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:32 pm

If this report is accurate, this procurement just got a lot more interesting.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...03124.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

Quote:
NEW DELHI (Dow Jones)--Boeing Co. (BA) said Monday it has received initial requests for information from India's federal government for supplying six refueling tankers, in what is likely to further expand the U.S. aircraft maker's presence in this burgeoning market for defense equipment.

"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Revelation
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:54 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 25):
If this report is accurate, this procurement just got a lot more interesting.

Very interesting indeed.

Cue the howling in 3.. 2.. 1...
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kc135topboom
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:13 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 25):
If this report is accurate, this procurement just got a lot more interesting.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...03124.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

Quote:
NEW DELHI (Dow Jones)--Boeing Co. (BA) said Monday it has received initial requests for information from India's federal government for supplying six refueling tankers, in what is likely to further expand the U.S. aircraft maker's presence in this burgeoning market for defense equipment.



Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
Very interesting indeed.

Cue the howling in 3.. 2.. 1...

Yes, the Airbus Cheerleader section will be all over this of how the US Government (who has yet to select their own new tanker) has twisted the arms of the Indian Government and IAF to cancel the A-330MRTT and order new Boeing tankers.

I find the second paragraph in the link to be even more interesting than the first one.

"We will do a detailed evaluation of the request for interest from the Indian government, study our inventory, and accordingly inform the government," Vivek Lall, vice president and country head of defense and space and security at Boeing India, told reporters. "

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...03124.html?mod=WSJ_latestheadlines

I'm not signing up for another subscription so I don't know what is in the rest of the story.

But, as far as I know, Boeing has a total of 1 tanker in their inventory that they own. That would be the KC-767A, without engines or Boom but partially converted from a new build B-767-200ER. It was the airplane started as part of the aborted 2002 tanker contract.

Once the "look" at the inventory, which government will they "inform"? US? India?

Could Boeing be talking about buying up 6 USAF KC-135A/Es parked at AMARC? They could get them and convert them into what the IAF may want. It could also be a direct FMS from the USAF to the IAF then modified through a Boeing contract?
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:53 pm



Quoting Comorin (Reply 17):
India's now in bed with the US and Israel (a threesome!) because of common strategic and commercial interests. Corporate America is in love in Bangalore and Gurgaon, and the Next Big Thing in India is Manufacturing.

Yet, India's biggest trade partner is not the US anymore, but China, with whom our trade volume overtook that of Indo-US trade two years ago.

I don't think India will ever get into a strategic relationship with the US. In the long term, both the US and China are our peer competitors as big powers. Further, the US is in decline and the Chinese are on the rise. There are enough dynamics there for us to benefit from playing both sides, that there is no point in explicitly getting into bed with one side.

Another important thing is that India values doctrinal and strategic independence. Arms procurement involves the potential for end-user agreements that may not be compatible for their intended purposes. Since the US has major strategic interests in the subcontinental region, it makes them a poor supplier by default.

France, Russia and Israel are all better options in this regard, because their strategic actions don't extend to this region so much. The Israelis have already proven themselves to be remarkably reliable, which makes it a huge pity that we deliberately ignored them for ages. However, they're best at small arms and munitions, and are not competitive in the tanker deal.
 
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golfradio
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:31 pm

Either way you slice it (Performance or Cost), the MRTT contract should have gone to either EADS or Ilyushin. Yet, Boeing gets a RFI when nothing has changed in their offerings since the last evaluation. This speaks volumes to the direction in which India is going.

Russia is no longer a reliable supplier. After the disintegration of the Soviet Union, Russia has changed the whole pattern of doing defense business. There are issues concerning spares, vendor support and built-in delays in the structure of their centralized military corporations. The special prices at which the Soviet systems were readily available during the cold war are no longer available and India is getting a rather rude awakening. A case in point is the Gorshkov fiasco.

Also the performance of the Russian systems do not justify the new prices. India's last military engagement during the Kargil war exposed some of these quality issues like the Krasnopol PGM, the T90 MBTs and the Tangushka ADS.

Israel is replacing Russia in a major way not just for small arms and munitions but also for other systems like the Barak Anti Missle system, the Mig21 upgrade project and the Phalcon AWACS systems.

But when it comes to a strategic force multiplying system like a MRTT or a MRCA the options are limited to the Americans and the Europeans.
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BarfBag
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:30 pm

It would be pointless to discern long term motives from the ad-hoc decisions made by MoD. Their acquisition processes have never lent themselves to such clarity and vision as to pretend that any particular action constitutes some long term motive.

One of the primary reasons for the repeated foulups during deal negotiations is that they lack a professional legal team to draft their specifications and negotiate. Instead they depend upon a legal team on deputation from the Law Ministry. In comparison, the arms dealers themselves have well paid legal teams on their side. The end result is that either someone bells the cat, resulting in political paralysis due to the blowback, or a bad deal goes through, with the same political fallout.

The IAF already has a large IL-78MKI fleet, which from all accounts they absolutely love, and flog for all they're worth. Despite its restrictions w.r.t refueling the Poseidons, I'd not be surprised if the IAF still went for more of them. Alternately, the entire Boeing RFI charade is just a heavyhanded attempt on their part to pressurize EADS.
 
Lumberton
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:00 pm



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 30):
Alternately, the entire Boeing RFI charade is just a heavyhanded attempt on their part to pressurize EADS.

Maybe, or maybe not. Ten years ago, who would have guessed that the Indian government would have stuck their thumb in Russia's eye and ordered P-8s and C-130s. Now C-17s may be in the works. I don't have a crystal ball--at least not one that works. However, I will defer to others that can predict the future.  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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golfradio
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:58 pm



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 30):
The IAF already has a large IL-78MKI fleet, which from all accounts they absolutely love, and flog for all they're worth. Despite its restrictions w.r.t refueling the Poseidons, I'd not be surprised if the IAF still went for more of them. Alternately, the entire Boeing RFI charade is just a heavyhanded attempt on their part to pressurize EADS.

I don't get it. If they love the IL-78s so much and it was the cheapest option why would they pick the A330? In May 2009, Air Chief Marshal Fali Major was on record in an interview stating that IAF is having issues with the quality of parts and support from the Russians. And he categorically stated that the IL-78 did not meet certain requirements.

And as to pressurizing EADS, the tactics work when calling for the proposals the first time not after you have selected them and then scrapping the contract.
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BarfBag
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:06 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 31):
Ten years ago, who would have guessed that the Indian government would have stuck their thumb in Russia's eye and ordered P-8s and C-130s.

I don't see how India had any motive to stick anything to Russia. It is in our interest to build economic and strategic ties with various powers, and according favours to multiple peer powers is part of this. The Russians understand this, and so do we. There's no zerosum game here, even if the US views it as such. Such a view is more suited to 1990 than 2010.

With the Cold War no longer a concern, there's no significant friction between the US and Russia that makes equally productive ties with both a difficult endeavour for us - while the US and India have come close to concluding a nuclear trade agreement, both Russia and France have already signed formal deals. We're simultaneously acquiring C-130s and MiG-29Ks.

While India did historically procure lots of arms from USSR, it was due to the favourable terms of trade available to us, and subsequently, the weight of the existing base of weaponry. We also procured massive quantities of arms from the UK, France and now Israel.

Quoting Golfradio (Reply 32):
And as to pressurizing EADS, the tactics work when calling for the proposals the first time not after you have selected them and then scrapping the contract.

In a buyers market the buyer doesn't really need to bother about that. On the other hand, the rather heavy-handed actions on the Indian government's part looks rather like the arbitrary way the Chinese behave, not that I'm making a value judgement. Whatever works...
 
BarfBag
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:16 am



Quoting Golfradio (Reply 32):
Air Chief Marshal Fali Major was on record in an interview stating that IAF is having issues with the quality of parts and support from the Russians. And he categorically stated that the IL-78 did not meet certain requirements.

As another perspective, I don't think there's any weapons system that will be entirely free of niggles and issues, more so an imported one, due to the associated spares supply chain concerns. Every system goes through iterations of development, and will have limitations.

While the ACM may complain about the Il-78s, the fact remains that his force wrings every last bit out of the same planes, and use them on every long range operation. I would be more concerned if he just repeatedly said 'all's well, nothing to see here' rather than state what can be improved.
 
Ozair
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:50 am



Quoting Golfradio (Reply 32):
I don't get it. If they love the IL-78s so much and it was the cheapest option why would they pick the A330?

There are serious supply shortages with IL-76 airframes. Numerous countries including China and India are having issues acquiring them. Not a great surprise then to choose and airframe that is in wide commercial service with a significant international supply chain.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:52 pm



Quoting Golfradio (Reply 29):
Either way you slice it (Performance or Cost), the MRTT contract should have gone to either EADS or Ilyushin. Yet, Boeing gets a RFI when nothing has changed in their offerings since the last evaluation. This speaks volumes to the direction in which India is going.

I don't think it does. You have cancelled the A-330MRTT contract because of costs, and probably other issues that are not public. To Boeing, they only sent an RFI, perhaps they could also send an RFI to EADS of used A-310MRTTs? As far as I know, the IAF has not identified any airplane type from Boeing in the form of a KC-135E, KC-767, KC-777, KC-747 or even a KC-737. Has the IAF even identified what they want and need in a tanker as far as its capabilities go? No, they have not. As far as I know, the IAF could be looking at modifications of their recently purchased B-747-400s from AI into tankers (KC-33s).

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 30):
the entire Boeing RFI charade is just a heavyhanded attempt on their part to pressurize EADS.

Maybe they are just watch EADS bullying the EU over the A-400M and decided they want no part of that for their tankers should costs climb.

Quoting Golfradio (Reply 32):
I don't get it. If they love the IL-78s so much and it was the cheapest option why would they pick the A330?

One big advantage the A-330MRTT (or converted A-310MRTT) and any Boeing tanker or conversion has over the Il-76/-78 tanker is a Boom, which will refuel their new P-8Is and C-17As.
 
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:57 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 36):
One big advantage the A-330MRTT (or converted A-310MRTT) and any Boeing tanker or conversion has over the Il-76/-78 tanker is a Boom, which will refuel their new P-8Is and C-17As.

It seems quite clear to me that a boom would be mandatory.
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:37 pm



Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 36):
One big advantage the A-330MRTT (or converted A-310MRTT) and any Boeing tanker or conversion has over the Il-76/-78 tanker is a Boom, which will refuel their new P-8Is and C-17As.

It seems quite clear to me that a boom would be mandatory.

Yes, but as I already pointed out, they do have a lot more choices than only the new build A-330MRTT. From Airbus, they could also get converted used A-300-600R/Fs, A-310-300s, A-319s, A-330-200s or A-340-200/-300s. From Boeing it could be converted used B-757s, B-737-700/C/ERs, B-767s (only -200ERs, -300ERs, or -300ERFs), B-747-200F/-400/-400F/ERFs, or former USAF KC-135Es reengined. I only picked the B-737-700 models and A-319 models as those carry the most fuel in their respective families.

We already know what EADS and Boeing each offer for new build tankers (but Boeing could offer a tanker conversion to the B-747-8F).
 
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:51 am



Quoting Ozair (Reply 35):
There are serious supply shortages with IL-76 airframes. Numerous countries including China and India are having issues acquiring them. Not a great surprise then to choose and airframe that is in wide commercial service with a significant international supply chain.

Why do you think so? There are tons of Il-76s sitting around in Russia which the Russian AF can't afford to keep flying. If you don't believe me go on google maps and look at Zhukovsky, Pskov, Chkalovsky, Klin, Staraya Rossiya, Krechevitsy, etc....

Not to mention the many Il-76 from former civilian operators that have gone bankrupt. I'm sure these can be bought quick. And also don't forget the tons of Il-76 in Ukraine especially at Melitopol.
 
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:03 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 39):
Why do you think so? There are tons of Il-76s sitting around in Russia which the Russian AF can't afford to keep flying. If you don't believe me go on google maps and look at Zhukovsky, Pskov, Chkalovsky, Klin, Staraya Rossiya, Krechevitsy, etc....

Not to mention the many Il-76 from former civilian operators that have gone bankrupt. I'm sure these can be bought quick. And also don't forget the tons of Il-76 in Ukraine especially at Melitopol.

I bet you most of those have already been stripped of parts, or have deteriorated to the point where refurbishing is highly cost and labour prohibitive. The Russians don't tend to properly store unused aircraft that well...

[Edited 2010-01-22 00:03:34]
 
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:17 pm



Quoting Golfradio (Reply 29):
Either way you slice it (Performance or Cost), the MRTT contract should have gone to either EADS or Ilyushin. Yet, Boeing gets a RFI when nothing has changed in their offerings since the last evaluation. This speaks volumes to the direction in which India is going.

Boeing was not invited to submit a bid under the original IAF tanker program RFP, it was only a compitition between the A-330MRTT and tanker varient of the Il-78.
 
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:53 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):
Boeing was not invited to submit a bid under the original IAF tanker program RFP, it was only a compitition between the A-330MRTT and tanker varient of the Il-78.

Yes, you are correct. I went back searching for the 2007 RFP and only EADS and UAC had responded.
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:25 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):

Boeing was not invited to submit a bid under the original IAF tanker program RFP, it was only a compitition between the A-330MRTT and tanker varient of the Il-78.

I see you are rewriting history yet again.

The 2007 RFP was sent to Lockheed Martin, Boeing, EADS and Ilyushin. Lockheed Martin and Boeing did not respond to the tender, leaving only Ilyushin and EADS.
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:58 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
The 2007 RFP was sent to Lockheed Martin, Boeing, EADS and Ilyushin. Lockheed Martin and Boeing did not respond to the tender, leaving only Ilyushin and EADS.

What platform did they expect Lockheed would tender? KC-130J?
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:08 pm



Quoting N328KF (Reply 44):
What platform did they expect Lockheed would tender? KC-130J?

The would be up to LM when they looked at the RFP.
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:26 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 41):

Boeing was not invited to submit a bid under the original IAF tanker program RFP, it was only a compitition between the A-330MRTT and tanker varient of the Il-78.

I see you are rewriting history yet again.

The 2007 RFP was sent to Lockheed Martin, Boeing, EADS and Ilyushin. Lockheed Martin and Boeing did not respond to the tender, leaving only Ilyushin and EADS.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 45):
Quoting N328KF (Reply 44):
What platform did they expect Lockheed would tender? KC-130J?

The would be up to LM when they looked at the RFP.

I don't remember Boeing or LM being sent the IAF RFP in 2007, Zeke. Got a link?
 
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:43 pm

The potential suppliers will be looking at a new RFI.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...es-rfi-for-refuelling-tankers.html

Quote:
"Boeing says it has received the RFI and plans to participate, but adds that as 'to what type we will be offering, that is still subject to internal discussions. The company has just received the RFI, and is studying it to determine India's requirements.'

The US manufacturer already has the KC-767 tanker/transport based on its commercial 767 platform, but has also more recently given consideration to perhaps developing a variant of its larger 777 design."



.....and perhaps, at a fresh RFP later on.
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:37 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 47):
The potential suppliers will be looking at a new RFI.....



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 47):
.....and perhaps, at a fresh RFP later on.

If India rejected the A-330MRTT because of costs, I just don't see Boeing offering the KC-777F, as it would most likely cost more than the A-330MRTT would. I think Boeing will offer a KC-767 version based on the IAF needs and compete against a newer price iffer from EADS for these 6 new tankers. It seems to me the Il-78 is out because it does not have a Boom.

If the Il-78 were to be offered as a probe & drogue only tanker, EADS could offer the RAF version of the A-330MRTT, the one without a Boom, and Boeing could counter with the KC-767 with or without a Boom as well as a C-17 with WARPs version for the 10 C-17s the IAF is now considering.

That brings up the question, how much does the IAF really need a Boom, since they will only have 2 or 3 types that can Boom refuel, the P-8I, the possible C-17 order, and maybe the B-747-400s they are getting from AI.
 
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RE: India Cancels Contract For Midair Refuellers

Sat Jan 23, 2010 2:01 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 48):
That brings up the question, how much does the IAF really need a Boom, since they will only have 2 or 3 types that can Boom refuel, the P-8I, the possible C-17 order, and maybe the B-747-400s they are getting from AI.

I don't know, but it'd be a real shame to go through the bother of acquiring tankers and not getting the boom even if they only have P-8I and C-17. In particular, from what I've read the C-17 is so much more capable if it can hit a tanker at the top of climb, and I can imagine P-8I also would be hella better if a tanker could meet it part way into its patrol.
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