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SAS A340
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Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:22 pm

Really interesting Big grin
Google translation from Swedish news site RAPPORT.

Aircraft manufacturer Saab will present shortly a new version of the JAS Gripen fighter plane, the report can now reveal. The new version is specially adapted for aircraft carriers. The background is that the Indian Navy has turned to Saab with an inquiry.

The new aircraft is based on the latest NG version of the JAS Gripen, the model Saab is now trying to sell to several different countries. Of these, Brazil and India also showed interest for the aircraft carrier-based variant.

Saab has been over a year working on the project and will shortly be submitting a development plan for the Indian Navy. These include the strengthening of the landing wheels, some other technical changes and a hook on landing.

The new aircraft carrier-based version of the Gripen is called Sea Gripen and are not in reality but only on the drawing board. The background to India's interest is the country's plans for a major expansion of its aircraft carrier fleet in the next 10-15 years.

Overall, it is about three to five new aircraft carriers, which means that any business may be about 50 to 100 new fighter planes. Gripen is one of several aircraft that are being considered.

This deal is completely off the Indian Air Force are now at the final stage of. These are just over 100 new aircraft to be purchased and also here is JAS Gripen is a candidate.

The original specification for the JAS Gripen makes that only limited modifications of the plane to make it clear aircraft carrier takeoffs and landings, according to project manager Peter Nilsson.

The Swedish system with road bases has made great demands on the possibility of land on narrow roads and short runways. An environment that is similar to what happens on an aircraft carrier, he says.


http://svt.se/2.22620/1.1846884/saab_tar_fram_ny_jas-modell
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TGIF
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:23 pm

Very interesting indeed! Let's hope it will be reality.

Here's an article for our english speaking friends:

http://www.stratpost.com/saab-offers-naval-gripen-to-india

http://i48.tinypic.com/5wwdnt.jpg
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:09 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 1):
Very interesting indeed! Let's hope it will be reality.

O yes  yes  Nice picture! and article.
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keesje
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:18 pm

Starting with zero carrier expeience they would need an experienced partner for that. Looks like to a have a niche though. F18/Rafale/Mig29K are much heavier/bigger/twin engined. The JSF is the obvious contender, but such an aircraft, Corsair / Skyhawk / Etendard style, could offer a lower cost/risk alternative.. The Gripen/carrier artist impression looks credible somehow.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:25 pm



Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 2):
Nice picture!

But not a very accurate picture. It shows the Sea GripenNG coming off the slant cat on a Nimitz class CVN. With a Cat assisted TO link (the rod stickin out forward of the nose gear), the airplane would not reach such a nose high attitude, it would be level or a max of about 2-3 degrees above a level attitude.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
Starting with zero carrier expeience they would need an experienced partner for that.

Well, they can team up with Boeing (F/A-18), NG (F-14 and other "cat" aircraft), LM (S-3B, and F-35C), or Dassault (Rafile), who all build, or have built carrier based aircraft. There are more companies (T-34C, T-45) with CV capable aircraft to help, too.
 
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golfradio
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:57 pm

IIRC, India's current carrier INS Viraat and it's planned carriers Gorshkov and the 2 indigenous Vikrant class carriers under construction are all STOBAR and do not have a cat.
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SeJoWa
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:23 pm

I remember while skating around Gotland last year how we came to an icredibly wide stretch of road not too far from Visby with a great view. I'm beginning to make a connection! A very shrewd strategy to consider the entire weapon system's vulnerabilities, and not only the sharp end of the sword.

More (naval) fighter competition is good news!
 
TGIF
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:12 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
But not a very accurate picture. It shows the Sea GripenNG coming off the slant cat on a Nimitz class CVN. With a Cat assisted TO link (the rod stickin out forward of the nose gear), the airplane would not reach such a nose high attitude, it would be level or a max of about 2-3 degrees above a level attitude.

True. I guess the artist though it looked a bit boring with little/no pitch.


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The F-14 doesn't seem to have any pitch at all...

Quoting Golfradio (Reply 5):
IIRC, India's current carrier INS Viraat and it's planned carriers Gorshkov and the 2 indigenous Vikrant class carriers under construction are all STOBAR and do not have a cat.

From the article above:

Quote:
According to Peter Nilsson, Gripen’s Vice President of Operational Capabilities, the Sea Gripen is intended for both CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take Off But Arrested Recovery) as well as STOBAR (Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery) operations. “There will obviously be differences in the MTOW (Maximum Take-Off Weight).

 
CheetahC
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:15 pm



Quoting Sejowa (Reply 6):
I remember while skating around Gotland last year how we came to an icredibly wide stretch of road not too far from Visby with a great view. I'm beginning to make a connection!

It could possibly be a road/wartime airforce base.
The standard Gripen can take off within 800m and land within 400m.
 
keesje
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:11 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
T-45) with CV capable aircraft to help, too.

Bingo! The T45 was developped from the BAE Hawk..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/T-45_Goshawk_Side-View.jpg/800px-T-45_Goshawk_Side-View.jpg

and Saab has an alliance with BAE. That could help, however Boeing produces the T-45 but even more the Super Hornet, that could be a complication..

http://www.allbusiness.com/company-a...ntracts-bids-public/6171915-1.html
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LMP737
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:06 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Bingo! The T45 was developped from the BAE Hawk..

The Navy had all sorts of problems modiyfying it for carrier use. It eneded up costing a lot more than they originally thought and took longer. That was with a company that had years of carrier aircraft expereince.

Quoting TGIF (Reply 7):
The F-14 doesn't seem to have any pitch at all...


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That picture was taken at the very end of the cat stroke. RIght after that picture was taken the nose gear would uncompress and the nose would pitch up.

Quoting SAS A340 (Thread starter):
The Swedish system with road bases has made great demands on the possibility of land on narrow roads and short runways. An environment that is similar to what happens on an aircraft carrier, he says.

Not that similar. There are some slow motion videos out there of carrier aircraft landing. Watch them and see the punishment they take.

[Edited 2010-01-15 17:09:11]
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L-188
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:29 am

The other country that could possibly take a really hard look at this aircraft is Brazil.

They are still flogging A-4's on their carrier.

Good aircraft but very very long in the tooth.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 9):
Bingo! The T45 was developped from the BAE Hawk..

I don't think it would be that far of a leap to have BAE take the carrier features from the T-45 and incorperate them into a version of either the Hawk 100 or 200 aircarft with their combat features.
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TGIF
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:38 am



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 10):
That picture was taken at the very end of the cat stroke. RIght after that picture was taken the nose gear would uncompress and the nose would pitch up.

I was using the picture to underline what KC135TopBoom said about the artistic impression i posted above. That 'picture' was also 'taken at the very end of the cat stroke.' It even has both wheel on the tarmac, the F-14 has one off the edge.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 10):
Not that similar. There are some slow motion videos out there of carrier aircraft landing. Watch them and see the punishment they take.

I think Mr. Nilsson was referring to the requirements to make the very difficult approach while landing on an aircraft carrier. I would think the sink rate is far higher while landing on a carrier than on a road base, causing greater stress to the hull. Thus, the increased empty weight of around 400kg.

Quote:
I challenge any existing deck-based fighter to perform a night landing in severe conditions with snow or rain and strong crosswinds on a Swedish standard road-base strip of 17 x 800 meters...

The requirements were set to 9 x 600 m.
 
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SAS A340
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:32 am



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 10):
Quoting SAS A340 (Thread starter):
The Swedish system with road bases has made great demands on the possibility of land on narrow roads and short runways. An environment that is similar to what happens on an aircraft carrier, he says.

Not that similar. There are some slow motion videos out there of carrier aircraft landing. Watch them and see the punishment they take.


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Something like this?  Wink ,the plane was in for inspection and shown no damage what so ever,but i see your point.
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Acheron
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:26 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
But not a very accurate picture. It shows the Sea GripenNG coming off the slant cat on a Nimitz class CVN. With a Cat assisted TO link (the rod stickin out forward of the nose gear), the airplane would not reach such a nose high attitude, it would be level or a max of about 2-3 degrees above a level attitude.

Whoever made the image, probably used this image of a Rafale being launched from the USS Enterprise for inspiration.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/French_Rafale_M_launch_from_USS_Enterprise.jpg

As you can see, the nose is quite high.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:52 pm

Unfortunately nobody wants cheap-but-expensive single-engined aircraft with short legs (range) to use off of their carriers. India just begun to take delivery of their order of MiG-29K's from Russia, and if they wanted to compliment what remains to be a chimerical carrier fleet, their are far more logical alternatives such as the Super Hornet, Rafale, or Su-27 navalized variants. Even the F-35C will go against the logical commandments of carrier aviation by having just one engine, but at least it will have decent range.
 
Ozair
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:08 pm



Quoting Acheron (Reply 14):
Whoever made the image, probably used this image of a Rafale being launched from the USS Enterprise for inspiration.

IIRC the Rafale were only doing touch and gos, they didn't actually get launched of the deck so it probably isn't an accurate replication.
 
A342
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:08 pm



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
Unfortunately nobody wants cheap-but-expensive single-engined aircraft with short legs (range) to use off of their carriers.

The Gripen NG's range will be quite good. Among others, it was modified to carry substantially more internal fuel.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Acheron
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:36 am



Quoting Ozair (Reply 16):
IIRC the Rafale were only doing touch and gos, they didn't actually get launched of the deck so it probably isn't an accurate replication.

They were launched too.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/Ent%20deck%201.jpg

 
LMP737
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:51 am



Quoting TGIF (Reply 12):
I was using the picture to underline what KC135TopBoom said about the artistic impression i posted above. That 'picture' was also 'taken at the very end of the cat stroke.' It even has both wheel on the tarmac, the F-14 has one off the edge.

Here's what I mean about the nose pitching up when the nose strut uncompressing on the Tomcat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQIYAJvzNxY&feature=related

Quoting TGIF (Reply 12):
I would think the sink rate is far higher while landing on a carrier than on a road base

A lot higher.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 13):
Something like this? ,the plane was in for inspection and shown no damage what so ever,but i see your point.

More like this.  Wink

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fw_Pcmgnus

Quoting Acheron (Reply 14):
Whoever made the image, probably used this image of a Rafale being launched from the USS Enterprise for inspiration.

The French Navy also operated off the Trumman and Roosevelt.
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spudh
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:24 pm

Not that I'm doubting you are all correct but there is one distinct difference between all the other Navy aircraft and the Gripen/Rafale. The Canard arrangement is going to have a big effect on the pitch rate at the end of the cat stroke.
All previous Navy aircraft that I can think of have relied on a negative lift downward moment from the tail to generate pitch up at the end of the cat stroke whereas the Rafale and Gripen will both have positive lift from the canards. This will likely lead to a different attitude coming off the ramp (although I doubt it will look as dramatic as the artist impression).
 
Ozair
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:43 am



Quoting Acheron (Reply 18):
They were launched too.

Cheers, some nice photos too!
 
JoeinTX
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:45 am

"Even the F-35C will go against the logical commandments of carrier aviation by having just one engine, but at least it will have decent range..."

Well, of course it will. Except for the: A-4 Skyhawk, A-7 Corsair II, the F-8 Crusader, the Harrier, Yak-36MP/38, the Etendard/Super Etendard, etc. Note how many very successful and long-serving single-engine carrier aircraft there have been over the last 40 years or so.

Modern jet engine tech being what it is is also largely belying the traditional belief in the necessity of a multi-engine aircraft being necessary for carrier operation.

What I don't really understand about the Gripen NG is it's target customers.................India and Brazil? India has the moribund yet still forging ahead LCA in the very same class for the very same purpose. I suppose SAAB/BAE was hoping to roll a FAB contract for Gripens into a potential opporunity for a handful of naval Gripens? Again, India's LCA is more apt for the Sao Paulo than the Gripen in all terms.........cost, complexity, etc.

Gripen NG can't be the "big" airplane on a carrier for countries looking for primary aircraft and it can't be the budget solution for smaller contracts since it's already too expensive for them.
 
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:17 pm



Quoting JoeinTX (Reply 22):

What I don't really understand about the Gripen NG is it's target customers.................India and Brazil? India has the moribund yet still forging ahead LCA in the very same class for the very same purpose.

I was of the understanding that the Sea Gripen was the result of a request from India to Saab for a navalised Gripen, I'm pretty sure it wasn't entirely Saabs idea.
 
daveflys0509
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:09 pm



Quoting JoeinTX (Reply 22):
Modern jet engine tech being what it is is also largely belying the traditional belief in the necessity of a multi-engine aircraft being necessary for carrier operation.

True, but almost all the carrier aviators I know would prefer to have two engines, if something mechanical were to happen while flying over the ocean there's another engine to prevent you from going swimming with the sharks. On a side note the T-45 has a very reliable engine (rolls royce), however they still continue to put three or four in the ground a year, that number would easily be half if it had two engines.
 
JoeinTX
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:05 am

"that number would easily be half if it had two engines...."

Possibly.

The same could be said regarding the total number of aircraft bought as a result. A twin-engined Goshawk would be a larger, more complex, and more expensive airplane. Would roughly half as many twin T-45s facing roughly half as many failure produce the same number of sorties and trainees as the current one? Just looking at the cost vs. risk analysis here.

As for the Naval Gripen, the idea has been around for awhile...........I believe it originated in the early 2000's after BAE took on a serious role in SAAB's marketing and before the F-35 flew. Adding BAE's carrier experience with a proven airplane as a potential rival to fill the envisioned QE class decks, et al. Knowing India's capriciousness with its defense contracts, and its beaureacratic elements, sounds more like a prod toward to the LCA program than anything meaningul. They already have millions tied-up in -29K buys so I don't see the point in adding yet another type to the fleet after it and the LCA. Just a ploy, nothing to it.....
 
LMP737
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:04 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 15):
India just begun to take delivery of their order of MiG-29K's from Russia, and if they wanted to compliment what remains to be a chimerical carrier fleet, their are far more logical alternatives such as the Super Hornet, Rafale, or Su-27 navalized variants.

With the sort of carrier ops the Indian Navy is going to be conducting that would leave out the Super Hornet and Rafale.
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spudh
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:14 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 26):
With the sort of carrier ops the Indian Navy is going to be conducting that would leave out the Super Hornet and Rafale.

What's so different about Indian set up that the most established and successful navy fighters out there are unsuitable?
 
LMP737
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:54 pm

Quoting spudh (Reply 27):
What's so different about Indian set up that the most established and successful navy fighters out there are unsuitable?

The future INS Vikramaditya uses a ski jump.
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spudh
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:16 pm

US Navy toyed with ski jumps before. I've got pics somewhere of a Tomcat taking off from one. I've a feeling the AF did too in case a runway had bomb damage.
I honestly doubt that it would be a show stopper enough to preclude either of the above from consideration although admittedly the SH might be limited in what it can get into the air with due to T/W ratio.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Carrierbased Sea Gripen On It's Way

Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:17 pm

Is India perhaps looking for a way to make a shift away from buying French supplied arms to buying from another more responsive source. Rafale or Super Hornet would be good for the Indian Navy but I suspect they'd wait for the development of the Sea Gripen if the long range terms and goals could be met.
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