Devilfish
Posts: 5257
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:47 am

The Navy is relaunching the presidential helo competition and has issued a fresh RFI to industry for their input. It's reasonable to expect the same set of platforms competing save for one --- Boeing is proposing either the CH-47 Chinook or the V-22 Osprey!

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...ell-boeing-v-22-osprey-cutaway.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...s-changes-for-us-presidential.html

Quote:
"The second round of bids is expected to include a challenge from Boeing, which has discussed offering a variant of its CH-47 Chinook or the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey tiltrotor. However, the RFI suggests that the latter type could be disadvantaged in the new competition, as the navy requires a speed of 140kt (260km/h), or roughly half of the V-22's capability."

I'm not sure why the Osprey's greater speed would be a liability, but the tiltrotor as Marine One sure fits the image. And their consideration of a mixed buy could facilitate this.....

Quote:
"Rather than buy a common aircraft to replace 11 Sikorsky VH-3Ds and eight Sikorsky VH-60s, the service would consider splitting the contract with a mixed fleet, the RFI says. Options under review include buying a common aircraft with two variants, or simply purchasing two different aircraft types.

The RFI discusses buying one aircraft with a fully appointed executive suite, including galley and lavatory, and a different aircraft with a full load of command, control and communications equipment."


Here is one instance where the Osprey's exalted price could be justified. The rose bushes in the garden are perhaps the only ones which would not be happy at the idea!  
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4596
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:41 am

Er, no.

I don't mean to pour cold water on things, but on something as crucial as the President's transport - something more conventional might be a lot better.
 
dw747400
Posts: 1091
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 8:24 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:56 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 1):
something more conventional might be a lot better.

I doubt the brass would be willing to go with something as radical as the V-22, especially since the safety record isn't particularly impressive. It would certainly be great for the mission, but for this role I think the brass will be conservative.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):

I'm not sure why the Osprey's greater speed would be a liability, but the tiltrotor as Marine One sure fits the image.

Perhaps they are saying that the added speed won't get the V-22 any points--effectively it looks like a 140 knot helicopter on paper in the contest. Just a 140 knot helicopter with a lot of added complexity, cost, and risk when compared with the other 140 knot helicopters!

It is interesting that they are considering a separate "everyday" transport and a command and control chopper.
CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
 
GST
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:27 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:56 pm

Quoting dw747400 (Reply 2):

I doubt the brass would be willing to go with something as radical as the V-22, especially since the safety record isn't particularly impressive. It would certainly be great for the mission, but for this role I think the brass will be conservative.

Given the time frame of these contests tend to require, perhaps they may at least kept it as a contender as long as possible, in the hope that the early crashes become ancient history, and the rates of aircraft going tech subside with experience. the Secret Service I'm sure would be enthusiastic about using it if it proves reliable enough, I can imagine them thinking of all the extra countermeasures that the increased payload could allow, not to mention the speed making it more difficult to shoot down generally.
 
User avatar
STT757
Posts: 13223
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:32 pm

Obama has traveled in the Osprey, just not as President. During the campaign when he visited Iraq he was flown from Al Assad to Jordan on a V-22.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11007
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:35 pm

Both a VH-47F and a VCV-22B from Boeing might be good contenders, with the Chinook offering more room.

The CV-22A/B has not had a crash in a long time now, I am sure the USMC and USAF have gotten a handle on the initial problems now.

Of course the CV-22 is a lot noiser than most other helios, so that would be a drawback for it, requiring more sound proofing.
 
dragon6172
Posts: 796
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:54 pm

The white smoke that spews out of the Osprey every time it starts may not be very Presidential. Not that I think that would be a deciding factor, but in todays "green" world I am sure it will be mentioned.
Phrogs Phorever
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:56 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Of course the CV-22 is a lot noiser than most other helios, so that would be a drawback for it, requiring more sound proofing

On the ground during lift off and landing the V-22 may present a greater noise signature than other large tandem helicopters. But compared to conventional large helicopters, the V-22 has a lower noise signature due to the noise generated by tail rotors.

Interior cabin noise comes from the engines, transmisons, and mechanical components like hydraulic pumps as well as the rotors. On the V-22 these sources are located in the nacelles far from the cabin instead of up on the roof a couple feet from the passengers heads.

Finally, in airplane cruise mode after the rotor speeds are reduced the, V-22 becomes very quiet inside and out compared to any large helicopter. If you get a chance to witness a V-22 do a low pass in airplane mode you will be suprised.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 2955
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:09 pm

Is it even possible for that thing to fit on the south lawn of the White House ? Wouldn't the massive propwash damage the surounding trees and vegetation ? Is just seems like overkill.
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
GST
Posts: 808
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:27 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:43 pm

Quoting CTR (Reply 7):

Interior cabin noise comes from the engines, transmissions, and mechanical components like hydraulic pumps as well as the rotors. On the V-22 these sources are located in the nacelles far from the cabin instead of up on the roof a couple feet from the passengers heads.

Does it not have transmissions between the engines to drive the rotors in the event of one engine failing?

Quoting alberchico (Reply 8):
Is it even possible for that thing to fit on the south lawn of the White House ? Wouldn't the massive prop wash damage the surrounding trees and vegetation ? Is just seems like overkill.

It does tend to cook carrier decks with its exhaust too, so expect charred grass if it is not using a pad.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:11 pm

Guess my head has been in the clouds for a while. I wasn't even aware the VH-71 was dead.

I don't understand why the platform needs so much capability. The POTUS isn't aboard the thing that long. Other than small arms and missile protection, what else besides a secure line is needed on Marine One? If a control chopper is needed, the split platform seems more logical. Ch-47 for the "control platform" and the S-92 for the "everyday transport".
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
LimaNiner
Posts: 272
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:32 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:19 pm

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 6):
The white smoke that spews out of the Osprey every time it starts may not be very Presidential.

True -- and in airplane cruise mode, do we really want the President to fly on a propeller plane?

Replace those rotors with a pair of JT8Ds, and you've got yourself a Presidential transport!  
 
ebj1248650
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:39 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
However, the RFI suggests that the latter type could be disadvantaged in the new competition, as the navy requires a speed of 140kt (260km

I suspect the Navy expects that the new machine has to be able to achieve 140 knots, not that it's limited to 140 knots. I can't imagine a competitor loosing points 'cause their machine is substantially faster, if it meets or exceeds all other requirements as well.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3267
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:48 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 12):
I can't imagine a competitor loosing points 'cause their machine is substantially faster, if it meets or exceeds all other requirements as well.

They won't loose points on speed, but they won't gain "bonus" points for exceeding the requirement. However, they are likely to loose points on the added complexity and costs a tiltrotor brings over a helicopter.
Attamottamotta!
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:11 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 9):
Does it not have transmissions between the engines to drive the rotors in the event of one engine failing?

There is a small mid-wing gearbox to drive the service system hydraulic pump and generator that gets it's power from the shaft that connects the two nacelles. But the noise this creates is nothing compared to the thousands of of horse power generating noise from main transmissions and engines.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:22 pm

Osprey would be no-good simply for the fact the model size is huge and cannot be easily transported around the US, let alone the globe and positioned for presidential visits. You need something that will fit a C-5.

Also from what I remember White House lawn landing zone does have some space restrictions which the Osprey might exceed with its twin rotors.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
HaveBlue
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:01 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:42 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Osprey would be no-good simply for the fact the model size is huge and cannot be easily transported around the US, let alone the globe and positioned for presidential visits. You need something that will fit a C-5.

I think this is the main con against the Osprey. Aside from being overly complex and having huge downwash, it can't be easily transported by the C-5. That alone should nix it.

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing the VV-22 on The Lawn, but I just don't see it happening.
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
arluna
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:50 am

I have a question about the V22 that I don't think any one has completely answered. What happens if you lose power? I can see that if it were in airplane mode it would probably have some capability to glide though the landing might be interesting with those enormous props/rotors hanging out on the wingtips. But what happens in helicopter mode? Can it autorotate? If so can it autorotate from a hover? Are there some Marine Corps V22 pilots on this board that can give a definitive answer to these questions? Heck, is there a helicopter pilot that might know these answers? (FYI, I do have some helicopter experence since I was a crew chief on a Chinook in Sunny Southeast Asia flying recovery missions.)

I think that the answers to these questions would have some bearing on whether or not it would make a good presidential transport.

[Edited 2010-02-21 19:51:00]
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:24 am

As awesome as it would be I could see some problems, too much downwash and not easily transportable. Now thy could just use the converted blackhawks that they travel with if needed, But not easily transportable could be a major issue. A chinook also seems interesting, it would give a lot of room and would be interesting to see. I would love to see the osprey but it just doesn't seem like it will be the most practical
 
User avatar
Web500sjc
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:37 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Also from what I remember White House lawn landing zone does have some space restrictions which the Osprey might exceed with its twin rotors.

I hope boeing thought that one out before butting a bid in for the V22, if the V22 cannot fit in the lawn then it would be a very bog blunder on boeings part.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Osprey would be no-good simply for the fact the model size is huge and cannot be easily transported around the US, let alone the globe and positioned for presidential visits. You need something that will fit a C-5.

why not just have the thing fly its self, it is almost as fast and you dont have to use another C-5 (I think they actually use the C-17 for the transports). how would that be for green, instead of using two ultra big and hungry jets to pull around a helo, we just mad the helo a plane and had it fly its self around.
Boiler Up!
 
Devilfish
Posts: 5257
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:44 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 1):

I don't mean to pour cold water on things, but on something as crucial as the President's transport - something more conventional might be a lot better.

There seems to be a general feeling here that the V-22 is "unsafe" for presidential use?

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 6):
The white smoke that spews out of the Osprey every time it starts may not be very Presidential. Not that I think that would be a deciding factor, but in todays "green" world I am sure it will be mentioned.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ron Kellenaers


That could be useful when you want to board somebody without being seen.  
Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 16):
I think this is the main con against the Osprey. Aside from being overly complex and having huge downwash, it can't be easily transported by the C-5.

From the photos, it looks like the problem would be with the tail stabs.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Harri Koskinen


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gabriel Widyna
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Karl Drage - Global Aviation Resource


There appears to be a little clearance for the engines - I wonder if the rotors and hubs could easily be disassembled as needed?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alex Christie
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Padgett


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Yauhen Patsel
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ronald J Stella


Is there a time window allowed for it to be "mission ready" after being partially disassembled/transported (if possible)?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
HaveBlue
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:01 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:45 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
From the photos, it looks like the problem would be with the tail stabs.....

I disagree, the problem is even without the stabs its too tall. The C-5 cargo hold is 19' wide by 13' tall and 121' long. I'd wager that stabs or no stabs its taller than 13' tall with the rotors folded up.
Here Here for Severe Clear!
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:17 am

It's too freakin' small. Taken a few months ago:

Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
JohnM
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:08 pm

It is small. Where would the shitter and TV studio fit? Maybe the Pres could ride jumpseat.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:14 pm

Also... how is the president going to board it? Are we really going to make him walk up the ass end? It seems like the V-22 is a nonstarter.
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:07 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 24):
Also... how is the president going to board it? Are we really going to make him walk up the ass end? It seems like the V-22 is a nonstarter.

There's a door on the right side behind the flight deck . That said it would a need a door on the left side so the POTUS could deplane in the normal manner of flight operations and protocal considering White House requirements.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:47 pm

Could they maybe make a special version of the V-22 for marine 1? maybe find a way to make some more interior room or something?
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:34 am

Quoting venus6971 (Reply 25):

There's a door on the right side behind the flight deck . That said it would a need a door on the left side so the POTUS could deplane in the normal manner of flight operations and protocal considering White House requirements.

...So he's gonna walk right past the left engine nacelle?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 4596
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:27 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 20):
There seems to be a general feeling here that the V-22 is "unsafe" for presidential use?

I don't believe I specifically said unsafe.   It's just well, it's just not the right machine for the job.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1540
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:31 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 24):
Also... how is the president going to board it? Are we really going to make him walk up the ass end? It seems like the V-22 is a nonstarter.

Think of the visual; The ramp drops slowly revealing the president standing there. They could also put a door in the rear and remove the ramp.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):
It's too freakin' small. Taken a few months ago:

That would be the major issue to me.
 
User avatar
Web500sjc
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:41 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 22):

It's too freakin' small. Taken a few months ago:




And how big is the current marine 1?

It's not supposed to be AF1 , it is supposed to fly the pres. Locally to places that could not land say a 747, or for that matter Anthing larger than a cessna.
Boiler Up!
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:59 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 27):
...So he's gonna walk right past the left engine nacelle?

Yes, and everybody will see the oily mess that is bottom of that nacelle and the bug killing exhaust smoke you see during engine start up when all the oil and other fluids that gravity drain into the combustion chamber.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 30):
And how big is the current marine 1?

It's not supposed to be AF1 , it is supposed to fly the pres. Locally to places that could not land say a 747, or for that matter Anthing larger than a cessna

You forget that USMC has a few VH-60's that fit into a C-5 and use on these types of contigencies.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
User avatar
Web500sjc
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:19 am

Quoting venus6971 (Reply 31):
You forget that USMC has a few VH-60's that fit into a C-5 and use on these types of contigencies.

What I mention to say is that the pres doesn't need it to be the size of a chinook, just big enough for 30 min flights max, maybe instead of flying AF1 to new York and taking a helo in, he could take marine 1 from the Lawn to wall street , without JFK or a change in planes saving fuel and being green ( a favorite of obama's).

A v22 could expand the range of marine one, and for helo flights too far away, just load up one of the smaller planes and use it there, it's not like the current M1 isougged around every where, they just lug smaller helps around for presidental use and use M1 in Washington.
Boiler Up!
 
zkeye
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:09 am

Quoting silentbob (Reply 29):
Think of the visual; The ramp drops slowly revealing the president standing there. They could also put a door in the rear and remove the ramp

That would be fine by me if you could arrange smoke - aka Star Wars.  
Bring out the gimp
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:26 pm

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 19):
why not just have the thing fly its self, it is almost as fast and you dont have to use another C-5 (I think they actually use the C-17 for the transports). how would that be for green, instead of using two ultra big and hungry jets to pull around a helo, we just mad the helo a plane and had it fly its self around.

You cant see the logistical headaches of such?

First time. The choppers could never get anywhere timely for last minute or same day events if they had to fly there on their own.
Then you have wear and tear. Imagine moving the a Presidential Osprey fleet globally, and the need to all the enroute support.
You would probably also need a larger fleet if they are expected to make their own way around as you would always have a portion of the fleet in transit around the country or the world.

Plus add in reliability and security concerns for a fleet that has to get itself around.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
dragon6172
Posts: 796
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:32 pm

Quoting dl767captain (Reply 26):
Could they maybe make a special version of the V-22 for marine 1? maybe find a way to make some more interior room or something?

Umm... the whole reason were are re-doing this damn Marine One competition is because they were making a special version of the EH-101. Longer tail boom, larger door so the Pres can stand tall and look cool for the press. Please, no "special" versions. Add some ASE, comms, Barka lounger, honey pot, bowl of M&Ms, and slap some some shiney paint on it.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 34):
Then you have wear and tear. Imagine moving the a Presidential Osprey fleet globally, and the need to all the enroute support.

Amen. You would wind up using C-17 or C-130 to ship engines and XMSNs all around the world every time one s#!t the bed in BFE.
Phrogs Phorever
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:23 pm

I imagine just the vibration at start up with all the burnt oil smoke at start up will be a non starter for this acft.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23206
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:43 pm

About the only benefit I could see for a V-22 is that it would allow longer radius missions thanks to the speed and range, but it sure seems like the drawbacks are more numerous...
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Thu Feb 25, 2010 1:06 am

Checking available information on line for the cargo hold dimensions on the C-5 and C-17, the V-22 can't fit inside without a folding tail and other modifications. But the same goes for the CH-47, EH-101 and S-92. The S-92 comes the closest, but would still require at least some modifications to the tail. So how did they plan to transport the VH-71? Was it modified with a folding tail and kneeling gear? Or did they just plan to ferry it ahead of Airforce 1?

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 6691
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:32 am

Quoting CTR (Reply 38):
So how did they plan to transport the VH-71? Was it modified with a folding tail and kneeling gear? Or did they just plan to ferry it ahead of Airforce 1?

Paper work was done, some things about lowering landing gear, et. al, however, I'm not aware of any test using the prototypes already built.

New UH-60's or S-92 are the best bet, much easier to transport via the C-5's or C-17's if possible, the need to transport these a/c is often overlooked, it is an expense in cost and man hours breaking down and re-assembling a/c for use. If POTUS can't take a leak in his house then hold it until he gets to the VC-25's, he needs a doctor not a new helo  
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:36 am

Quoting CTR (Reply 38):
But the same goes for the CH-47, EH-101 and S-92. The S-92 comes the closest, but would still require at least some modifications to the tail.

There was never any dispute that these aircraft would require folding kits, for air transport. The rating factor was the time required to go from air transportable, to airworthy. How long does the V-22 take to undergo this process?
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:01 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 40):
There was never any dispute that these aircraft would require folding kits, for air transport. The rating factor was the time required to go from air transportable, to airworthy. How long does the V-22 take to undergo this process?

Good question. Since the V-22 was not proposed during the last POTUS helicopter RFP, I have not seen any publised information. Looking at photos with the aircraft already folded to take under the deck, re-indexing of the locked rotor position, kneeling gear and folding verticals might be enough. Along with loading the aircraft with the nose elevated. No doubt engineers at Boeing and Bell are working the issue.

Can't see any way to easily get a CH-47 lowered enough. Maybe some friends of mine in East LA with a 62 Chevy can consult for Boeing.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:38 pm

,

CTR

Quoting CTR (Reply 41):
Can't see any way to easily get a CH-47 lowered enough. Maybe some friends of mine in East LA with a 62 Chevy can consult for Boeing.

As I remember that it took about 8 hours by a Penn NG troops to put one CH-47 back together coming off a C-5 in Keflavik which was putting the transmissions front and back rotors and blades back on so it would fit in a C-5.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
dragon6172
Posts: 796
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:18 pm

Quoting CTR (Reply 41):
Looking at photos with the aircraft already folded to take under the deck, re-indexing of the locked rotor position, kneeling gear and folding verticals might be enough.

More complexity to an aircraft that already suffers from being too complex. Wonderful. Osprey is 18.5 feet wide when folded, C-5 cargo hold is around 19 feet (google search, not sure how accurate this is). 6 inch clearance is really not enough. I know Phroggies clear the roof during loading by a few inches, but once inside there is a bit more clearance. Probably have to remove prop-rotors on an Osprey to make sure the width is acceptable.

Anyhow, the aircraft is supposed to be self-deployable. Not sure there is even a procedure to put it in a C-5. At least not on any regular basis. If HMX went with the Osprey I think a more likely scenario would be to assign a few C-130s to them to carry parts, personnel, and provide AR to span the globe. Also go with the AF CV-22 variant that has the extra wing tanks for a longer range (did AF go through with this option?).
Phrogs Phorever
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:30 pm

I think you would sooner see an upgraded H-46 (akin to the 360) for Marine One before we will an Osprey; if you think the scope creep was bad on the VH-71, can you imagine what it would look like (and cost) on the V-22? Besides, I think the V-22 cabin is just too narrow, and because of that, just can't carry anywhere near what they are looking for Marine One.

I dunno, Obama does have some awfully narrow shoulders so maybe he would fit, but he won't be in office by the time his replacement now rolls in, anyways (even if they re-select a version of the VH-71 which would be the least expensive and risk option, given how much they have already invested into it.)
 
JohnM
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:01 pm

Quoting CTR (Reply 38):
Checking available information on line for the cargo hold dimensions on the C-5 and C-17, the V-22 can't fit inside without a folding tail and other modifications. But the same goes for the CH-47, EH-101 and S-92. The S-92 comes the closest

A normal non tricked out CH-47 fits in a C-5, actually 2 at a time. Of course it does require more break down than other helicopters, but it is done all the time. If the Navy/ White House/ Secret Service gets all crazy again, a bird of this size will be required anyway. Get some UH-60M aircraft and be done with it. No head room, but let the POTUS just suck it up. Give the Pres a blue force tracker modified to track Congress and Senate battle units, and call it good.
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Osprey For Marine One?

Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:58 am

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 43):
Osprey is 18.5 feet wide when folded, C-5 cargo hold is around 19 feet (google search, not sure how accurate this is). 6 inch clearance is really not enough.

The folded width is the same as the distance between the verticals surfaces. So as I noted, the verticals would need to be folded. The width of the folded pylons is two feet narrower after removing the spinners. Re-indexing of the folded blades can be done manually using the existing manual drive mechanism. Landing gear can be kneeled by depressurizing the oleos. Compared to what I just read what is require to load a CH-47, this is nothing.

Quoting dragon6172 (Reply 43):
supposed to be self-deployable. Not sure there is even a procedure to put it in a C-5. At least not on any regular basis. If HMX went with the Osprey I think a more likely scenario would be to assign a few C-130s to them to carry parts, personnel, and provide AR to span the globe.

I fully agree! Just imagine the money this would save the US. Crew, maintenance and fuel costs for a V-22 and a C-130 have to be a fraction that of even a UH-60 and a C-5 (or C-17).

The V-22 interior is smaller than a CH-47 or EH-101. But it is a lot larger inside than a UH-60. The interior is approximatly the same size as a Gulfstream 200, which is pretty spacious to fly in, especially after flying in a Lear 35 or a small Citation.

http://www.gulfstream.com/products/g200/interiors.htm#

Finally, there is the equation of reduced time in the air versus acceptable level of discomfort.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: parapente and 5 guests