Lumberton
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Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:45 am

Just a few lines in this Aviation Week blog. The close cooperation between US and German forces doesn't surprise me, but what did startle me was this:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest

Quote:
Up to 5,000 US troops are reinforcing the 4,500 German soldiers in northern Afghanistan. Guttenberg welcomed the availability of US combat helicopters. Germany is not ready to send its own Tiger combat helicopters to Afghanistan.

US helicopters already provided medical evacuation of German soldiers under fire on 2 April. During McChrystal's visit, Guttenberg awarded the Ehrenkreuz der Bundeswehr in Gold (Bundeswehr Cross of Honor in Gold) to 14 US helicopter crew members in their absence for this mission.

What are the issues with the Tigers? I would have thought this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to use these expensive machines and show what they can do.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
GDB
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:01 pm

The French have deployed their Tigers to Afghanistan, I think their version was, with little modification, more suited to the role there.
While the German version was still more optimised for the original European theatre anti tank role?
Just a hunch, since France has long done extra NATO deployments, compared to Germany due to restraints on such things, they might always have had an eye on this role.
Who would have thought less than a decade ago German troops would even be in Afghanistan?

French Tigers in Afghanistan;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zVg5h9AUY8

[Edited 2010-04-23 11:07:28]
 
mffoda
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:13 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 1):

I think your right GDB.

The German version lacked a cannon.

From wiki....

UH Tiger


Tiger UHT of the German Army
The UHT (from Unterstützungshubschrauber Tiger German for Support Helicopter Tiger) is a medium-weight multi-role fire support helicopter built for the Bundeswehr (German Armed Forces).
The UHT can carry PARS 3 LR "fire and forget" and/or HOT3 anti-tank missiles as well as 70 mm Hydra air-to-ground fire support rockets. Four AIM-92 Stinger missiles (2 on each side) are mounted for air-to-air combat. Unlike the HAP/HCP version it has no integrated gun turret, but a 12.7 mm gunpod can be fitted if needed. The German Army decided against the French 30 mm GIAT cannon that is used on other Tiger versions because it was dissatisfied with the heavy recoil of this weapon. The upgrade of the UHT with the Rheinmetall RMK30, a 30 mm recoilless autocannon, is not yet clarified due to the budget.
Another noticeable difference with the HAP version is the use of a mast-mounted sight, which has second-generation infrared and CCD TV cameras. Countermeasures include radar/laser/missile launch/missile approach warning receivers and decoy launchers.

In August 2009, the German magazine Der Spiegel reported that the ten operational aircraft in the German Army are only suitable for pilot training, while others have not been accepted due to defects.[13]
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N328KF
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:54 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 2):
The German version lacked a cannon.

This seems like a major oversight in retrospect.
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BladeLWS
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:21 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
This seems like a major oversight in retrospect.

Attack helo without a gun is worse than a fighter without a gun. What happens when you try to attack moving infantry with a missile and they scatter?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:24 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 2):
The German version lacked a cannon.

This seems like a major oversight in retrospect.

Up to the mid-1990s Germany had strict constitutional limits on deplying her troops broad, especially for combat missions. These limits were very much insisted upon by the Allies and our neighbours, fearing that we might start invading them again (e.g. one condition for the re-unification was the reduction of the number of German soldiers to 350000 maximum, due to the sudden combing of the former East and West German militaries we suddenly had almost a million soldiers in 1990. Similar reductions had to be carried out with the eqipment).
Before the collapse of East Germany the West German Bundeswehr was intended to act as a speed bump to hold up the Warsaw Pact forces long enough to allow American and Canadian re-inforcements to arrive in Europe. The Tiger was designed and ordered during this period , when the most likely enemy were massive armoured forces pouring through the Fulda Gap. Up to 10 years ago the Bundeswehr was never faced with the prospect of having to fight an ant-guerilla war.

Jan
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ThePointblank
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:50 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 3):
This seems like a major oversight in retrospect.

The Germans felt that the cannon as offered was unsatisfactory for a variety of issues.
 
sasd209
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:31 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 6):
The Germans felt that the cannon as offered was unsatisfactory for a variety of issues.

Is it possible to retro-fit the French cannon or another cannon of the German choice? I'm sure the helicopter is capable without it, but surely it would be a nice addition? Is the 27MM Mauser that is used on the German navy vessels compatible?
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:10 am

Quoting sasd209 (Reply 7):

Is it possible to retro-fit the French cannon or another cannon of the German choice? I'm sure the helicopter is capable without it, but surely it would be a nice addition? Is the 27MM Mauser that is used on the German navy vessels compatible?

The Germans were planning on using a Rheinmetall cannon, but there hasn't been much movement on that front. I think the primary issue was that the Germans were concerned over recoil of the French gun, so I doubt that the Mauser would be an acceptable substitute. The Germans do have a gun pod which is carried by a weapons pylon so that kinda deals with that situation.
 
mffoda
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Tue May 25, 2010 3:22 pm

"Germany suspends EADS helicopter purchase"

"None of the 11 Tiger helicopters delivered so far has been suitable for operational use or training, the report added."

"because of serious problems with the wiring"

I wonder if France is having these wiring problems as well? Does anyone know how they are working out in A-stan?

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp...RMDNC_0_-487856-1&sec=Worldupdates
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mffoda
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Thu May 27, 2010 3:21 pm

Update:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...d06dda-b328-4794-bd0b-5229fe04f06b

"The French Tigers are a different model - HAP - and have already been successfully deployed in Afghanistan ... although they too have this wiring problem. Christina Gotzhein, a spokeswoman for Eurocopter, told me that this wiring problem had been identified back in March 2009 and a service bulletin issued to the customers. The problem, she said, is that in certain circumstances wires touch each other but there are protective measures which can be taken. "The operational capability is not limited by these protective measures," she added, and no hint of difficulties has been mentioned by either the French army or the DGA French procurement agency."

Interesting; The wiring problem has been comfirmed by Eurocopter. But, the French army and procurement agency have not mentioned it.

Why would they be silent on this matter???  
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bikerthai
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Thu May 27, 2010 4:15 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 10):
Why would they be silent on this matter???

Mabey the Germans were more particular to the quality of the product they are getting.

Mercedes vs Renault comes to mind.  

bikerthai
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ThePointblank
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Sat May 29, 2010 7:58 am

Reading more into this, this is sounding more like the MH-90 situation; same 'program' but many sub models for different countries... sometimes defence cooperation isn't all its cracked up to be. Something about German Tigers having different sensors mounted in different locations, different weapons fit, different engine versions, and different ballistic protection levels. Sounds like a whole new helicopter.
 
mffoda
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RE: Where The Tigers? Not Ready For Afghanistan?

Mon May 31, 2010 1:26 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 11):

"France Demands Fix To Chafed Wires in Tiger Helo"

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4645401&c=EUR&s=AIR

I guess the French Army could no longer be silent on this matter...

"Tiger helicopters have flown more than 20,000 flight hours, without any flight incident from harnesses chafing," Eurocopter said.

Seems like Eurocopter is missing the point with the statement above... Remember the chafing problems of the early F-16's... Yeah... it was flying great up in till the point it crashed!!   
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