Devilfish
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Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Thu May 27, 2010 12:36 am

Latest news from Flightglobal cites at least four potential suppliers for the JASDF YS-11 replacement program --- with Mitsubishi's MRJ getting prominent mention.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...japans-ys-11-replacement-need.html

Quote:
"The Japanese air force, navy and coastguard have a future requirement for regional aircraft to replace their ageing fleets of NAMC YS-11 turboprops.

Japanese authorities acknowledge there is a need to start replacing the assets, say industry sources involved in the sale of regional aircraft.

'There is some small movement in the ministry of defence to phase out the YS-11s,' says one. 'I don't know when they plan to phase out the YS-11s, but the physical condition of the aircraft will decide it.'

[.....]

Flightglobal's MiliCAS database says the average age of Japan's YS-11 fleet is 40 years. The air force has 13, the navy 10 and the coastguard three, it adds."


Conspicuous by its absence is Kawasaki's XP-1.....

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Photo © Peter Terlouw
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Photo © Esa Kaihlanen


What could be wrong with this purpose-built military prototype originally intended for those missions that now, civilian prop and jet designs are being considered for adaption in its stead? Number of engines, propulsion type, or some other aspects in its development?

[Edited 2010-05-26 17:47:00]
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A342
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Thu May 27, 2010 11:02 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Thread starter):
What could be wrong with this purpose-built military prototype originally intended for those missions that now, civilian prop and jet designs are being considered for adaption in its stead? Number of engines, propulsion type, or some other aspects in its development?

The XP-1 is a P-3 replacement. It would be way too much plane to replace the YS-11. Just my two cents.
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ptrjong
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Thu May 27, 2010 11:14 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):

Exactly.

YS-11 MTOW, 52,000 lbs.
P-1 MTOW, 176,000 lbs.

Peter 
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Shmertspionem
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Thu May 27, 2010 4:53 pm

That said given the cost of developing the aircraft - just to meet domestic reqs - it is possibly a natural replacement solution. Also till Japan got the EP-3s they used to use YS-11s in the ELINT/SIGINT roles and I think this plane with its endurance and floorspace/MTOW increase is a natural for that role (should the JSDF choose to resuscitate it)

check out this Japanese web site - it has lots of CGI images of the different P-1 variations imagined/possible

http://www.heinkel.jp/yspack/ysf_p1_eng.html


here's a pic of the ELINT configured YS_11

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4378653440_72bb0f8566_o.jpg
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Shmertspionem
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Thu May 27, 2010 6:02 pm

And also it will be very very useful supplying far flung bases in the chitose - minami torishima - okinawa triangle. The max range of the YS-11 was 2,200km and less still - full load. The P-1 will enable not just the full complement of pax but also a meaningful luggage/freight ratio to be ferried between these bases freeing up larger capital assets.
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Devilfish
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Thu May 27, 2010 9:58 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 1):
The XP-1 is a P-3 replacement. It would be way too much plane to replace the YS-11. Just my two cents.
Quoting ptrjong (Reply 2):
Quoting A342 (Reply 1):

Exactly.

YS-11 MTOW, 52,000 lbs.
P-1 MTOW, 176,000 lbs.

As you said in a previous thread.....

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 12):
The P-1 doesn't look like a heavy, but these are not small aircraft. alert
Kawasaki XP-1 (by Lindy Field Dec 11 2008 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)?threadid=100392&searchid=100704&s=xp-1#ID100704

Was aware of the size and weight differences, hence the reference to the number of engines. My point is if it was their design goal to field a bigger aircraft than the YS-11 possibly to overcome the latter's size and power limitations, range and time on station.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 3):
Also till Japan got the EP-3s they used to use YS-11s in the ELINT/SIGINT roles and I think this plane with its endurance and floorspace/MTOW increase is a natural for that role

        

This may also apply.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...eillance-aircraft-for-finland.html

Quote:
"DENVER --- Lockheed Martin announced today that it has been awarded a four-year contract to supply the Finnish Air Force with an airborne surveillance system and associated ground systems. The value of this contract is approximately $100 million.

'Lockheed Martin is honored to work with the Finnish Air Force,' said John Mengucci, President of Lockheed Martin Information Systems & Global Services-Defense. 'We intend to provide the Air Force Command with a highly capable system that fulfils their dynamic airborne intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance operational requirements.'

Under this contract, Lockheed Martin's team will modify an EADS CASA C-295 turboprop aircraft to accommodate an advanced surveillance system. A key attribute of the system will be an open and modular architecture to allow future system upgrades to be easily added and readily reconfigured to support evolving mission needs.'



I guess the ATR 42-500 (or the upcoming update) would be fine for coastal patrols and search and rescue, in conjunction with the requested replacements for the UH-60Js..

[Edited 2010-05-27 15:08:24]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
A342
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Thu May 27, 2010 10:45 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 3):
here's a pic of the ELINT configured YS_11

Does that YS-11 have GE T64 engines or am I seeing things?!? Never knew about that version...

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 4):
And also it will be very very useful supplying far flung bases in the chitose - minami torishima - okinawa triangle.

The runway at Minami Torishima is rather short, only 1372m, according to worldaerodata, so that could be "interesting" (I'm aware of the 2250m figure on the English wikipedia page, but that is definitely wrong).
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Fri May 28, 2010 2:58 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
Does that YS-11 have GE T64 engines or am I seeing things?!?

Yes thats correct - the ES Y-11 were modified towards the end of the YS-11s production run and the RR darts were changed to the Allison T64-IHI-10J to make a "super YS-11" if you want to call it that.

Quoting A342 (Reply 6):
The runway at Minami Torishima is rather short, only 1372m

Yes i know worldaero says its 1372 but methinks they're wrong on 2 counts

1) The wikipedia source (AIS Japan) is a run by the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism and has a government IP address (https://aisjapan.mlit.go.jp/) presumably they should know their own country better

2) Since i didn't want to rely on them either i took out my foot rule and measured the runway on the 1/25,000 map of torishima by the Geographical survey of Japan and it measured 84mm which multiplied by 25,000 gives us 2100 meters which is closer to the higher figures quoted on the internet.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 5):
Lockheed Martin's team will modify an EADS CASA C-295 turboprop aircraft to accommodate an advanced surveillance system
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 5):
I guess the ATR 42-500 (or the upcoming update) would be fine for coastal patrols

Ja i was thinking of the same thing - especially given that the ATR is used by the Guarda Costeria in the same role and the C-295 has been at it for quite some time now. I guess it will depend on the Japanese calculation of costs with regards to many factors - domestic vs foreign, new plane type vs existent plane type, fuel economy of twin engine turboprop VS cost of a new spares reserve etc etc etc.
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Araiguma
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Fri May 28, 2010 5:52 am

JASDF
2 YS-11EA for Electoric Warfare
4 YS-11EB for ELINT
3 YS-11FC for Flight Checker
1 YS-11NT for Navigation Trainer
3 YS-11P for Passenger/VIP Transport

JMSDF
2 YS-11M for Freighter
2 YS-11M-A for Freighter
6 YS-11T-A for MPA trainer

JASDF & JMSDF YS-11 replacement program have no move yet, but some Japanese military source says JASDF is considering modified XC-2 replaces YS-11EB.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 4):
And also it will be very very useful supplying far flung bases in the chitose - minami torishima - okinawa triangle. The max range of the YS-11 was 2,200km and less still - full load. The P-1 will enable not just the full complement of pax but also a meaningful luggage/freight ratio to be ferried between these bases freeing up larger capital assets.

YS-11 should drop by Iwojima to refuel to go to Minamitorisihima because of its range.
JMSDF operates YS-11 once a week to supply there, and JASDF C-130H goes to there once a month but there is no altanative airport under bad weather condition so flexibility of those mission are very limited. It will be useful more long range aircraft like XP-1/XC-2.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 7):
Yes i know worldaero says its 1372 but methinks they're wrong on 2 counts

1) The wikipedia source (AIS Japan) is a run by the Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism and has a government IP address (https://aisjapan.mlit.go.jp/) presumably they should know their own country better

2) Since i didn't want to rely on them either i took out my foot rule and measured the runway on the 1/25,000 map of torishima by the Geographical survey of Japan and it measured 84mm which multiplied by 25,000 gives us 2100 meters which is closer to the higher figures quoted on the internet.

According to GSI 1/25.000 map or Google Earth or even Wikipedia(Japanese), Minamitorishima runaway is 1372m. I think you should try again.

GSI (Geospatial Information Authority of Japan)
http://watchizu.gsi.go.jp/watchizu.html?b=241715&l=1535848

Wikipedia(Japanese)
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8D%...8%88%AA%E7%A9%BA%E5%9F%BA%E5%9C%B0
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Fri May 28, 2010 7:18 am

Quoting Araiguma (Reply 8):
According to GSI 1/25.000 map or Google Earth or even Wikipedia(Japanese), Minamitorishima runaway is 1372m. I think you should try again

1) You are absolutely right - 1400 thats what i'm getting of your map - but if you try the map i posted above (also GSI) i'm getting 2100 - see this site here http://www.gsi.go.jp/WNEW/LATEST/special00-01-Nhigashi.htm

2) Cant get torishima on google maps/earth - pls cud you help with this since my hiragana/katakana sucks - my kanji skills are non existant - and the romaji search gets me nowhere.

thanks
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Araiguma
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Fri May 28, 2010 8:07 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 9):
1) You are absolutely right - 1400 thats what i'm getting of your map - but if you try the map i posted above (also GSI) i'm getting 2100 - see this site here http://www.gsi.go.jp/WNEW/LATEST/spe...i.htm

I think this image size is not correct scale.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 9):
2) Cant get torishima on google maps/earth - pls cud you help with this since my hiragana/katakana sucks - my kanji skills are non existant - and the romaji search gets me nowhere.

I find coordinates, 24.283753,153.980076. Try this.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Fri May 28, 2010 8:20 am

Quoting Araiguma (Reply 10):

I find coordinates, 24.283753,153.980076. Try this.




Thanks - Yep you and A342 are correct - its around the 1400 meter mark
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Devilfish
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Fri May 28, 2010 10:12 am

Quoting Araiguma (Reply 8):
JASDF
2 YS-11EA for Electoric Warfare
4 YS-11EB for ELINT
3 YS-11FC for Flight Checker
1 YS-11NT for Navigation Trainer
3 YS-11P for Passenger/VIP Transport

JMSDF
2 YS-11M for Freighter
2 YS-11M-A for Freighter
6 YS-11T-A for MPA trainer

JASDF & JMSDF YS-11 replacement program have no move yet, but some Japanese military source says JASDF is considering modified XC-2 replaces YS-11EB.

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Photo © Katsunori Kimura


Could we assume then that the P-1 is being considered for the remaining roles (EW, FC, NT & P), while the XC-2 would take that (ELINT) on and the pure freighter mission? Perhaps they might also do a tanker version later.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 3):
That said given the cost of developing the aircraft - just to meet domestic reqs - it is possibly a natural replacement solution.

Yes. Blowing away $2B just to retain the knowledge as put forth before doesn't sound so convincing anymore, even if it was Japan doing it, especially in this economic climate. I take the linked report at the thread's start as an effort to promote the MRJ, perhaps to gain additional development funding and a captive customer. It may also be the Government's way of introducing competition to ensure quality and to keep prices fair.
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Shmertspionem
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Fri May 28, 2010 12:04 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 12):
especially in this economic climate.

We really don't know - the problem is we don't have good English sources on Japan. Till now all of us have been speculating as to the most likely options. Problem is Japan has always maintained an independent defence production capacity - knowing full well that it is uneconomical. This was policy even during the worst period of the late 80's bubble burst at the end of Yasuhiro Nakasone's premiership. This current downturn is a mere footnote compared to what happened in the late 80s.

We will never know unless we analyse the tone and tenor of the Japanese newspapers on this subject.

Araiguma San cud u please enlighten us on this subject? is it discussed in the press ? any hints - indications?
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Araiguma
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Sat May 29, 2010 2:08 am

Japanese media tendency about XP-1/XC-2 program is comparatively affirmative. I think there is some reasons;

1) This program is require low budget compared to the other program like A400M or P-8 MPA.
2) Domestic aircraft program like YS-11, C-1, T-2/F-1, T-4, OH-1 were always thought as necessary expenses to develop competitiveness in the world. Most Japanese people think the manufacturing industry is still our economical basis, so bad economy is not the reason to quit domestic aircraft program.
3) XP-1/XC-2 is the first domestic military aircraft program being taken into consideration to entry into commercial market from the beginning.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Kawasaki XP-1 As YS-11 Replacement

Sat May 29, 2010 3:57 am

Quoting Araiguma (Reply 14):
so bad economy is not the reason to quit domestic aircraft program.

Thanks

Devilfish - i think we have our answer here - as i suspected especially since Japan has been in recovery and Hatoyama chickened out on all his major promised reforms, we can expect him to follow past policy.
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