comorin
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Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:35 pm

The Tejas Light Combat Fighter took off on its first flight today in Bangalore and was flown at Mach 1.1 :

From the Times of India:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/I...-takes-off/articleshow/6004370.cms


The article talks about it replacing the Navy's Sea Harriers.




(wiki)
 
BarfBag
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:21 am

Very misleading title. The event was actually the first flight of the first limited series production aircraft in its final configuration for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) Indian Air Force induction in late 2010-early 2011. Various LCA/Tejas prototype aircraft (10 in all, the first two technology demonstrators now scrapped) have already flown about 1400 test flights. It will initially replace MiG-21s and 23/27s. There will be single seater versions for IAF as well as two seaters for the Navy and for the trainer models.
 
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vivekman2006
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:10 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 1):
Very misleading title. The event was actually the first flight of the first limited series production aircraft in its final configuration for Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) Indian Air Force induction in late 2010-early 2011.

I thought so too. The actual title of the article is, "First flight of Tejas aircraft LSP-4 takes off"

Anyway, happy to see the Tejas entering the limited serial production phase. Hopefully, we can see it being formally inducted in to the IAF as per schedule.

- Vivek
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 pm

Sorry Barfbag and Vivek - I read the TOI article and came up with the thread title - not sure I can change it now! Hopefully readers will read your posts and not get misled.

What exactly is the mission of the Tejas? What aircraft does it compete against and how does it stack up?
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:19 pm

What's the meaning of "Tejas" in Hindi? In Spanish it's the word for "Texas" but I can't imagine India naming a new fighter for the Lone Star state..
 
BarfBag
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:23 pm

The stated goal of the LCA is to replace the MiG-21 fleet. It also serves as a domestic replacement for the Sea Harriers aboard Viraat, Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov) and Vikrant (the 40000 ton carrier being built at Cochin Shipyard). However, the latter is not as big a priority, and the full navalized platform (strengthed undercarriage, arrester hook, semi-folded wings) has not yet flown, IIRC.

More than just replacing the Fishbeds, the LCA provided the platform for us to build an entire modern aerospace development infrastructure locally. After the Marut in the 1960s, no attempt was made to sustain and build upon the capabilities gained from that project, until the LCA project really came to life in the 1990s. Except for cutting edge avionics and propulsion (which are still imported), ADA and HAL now have the ability to design and build modern fighter aircraft domestically. Hopefully the multimode radar and Kaveri aircraft engine projects will address the remaining concerns.
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:24 pm

Tejas = Radiance/Brilliance in Sanskrit
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:36 pm

Might the name be loosely translated as "Star"? The reason I ask is that the supposed English translation of the French "Rafale" is alleged to be "squall" though I have to wonder if perhaps the French weren't intending the name "Storm" as the more appropriate English translation.
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:52 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 5):

Many thanks for the explanation - you sure know your stuff!

Follow up question: How does India reconcile it's military need to have the best fighter vs an industrial policy need to build a domestic manufacturing industry? The only right answer seems to be that the Indian aircraft needs to be as good or better than what you can buy on the market today. Was this a design goal for the Tejas? Does it surpass its competition for the intended mission? Oops, that's three questions...
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:16 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 7):
Might the name be loosely translated as "Star"?

Tejas is an adjective form, as I recall. There are other HAL aircraft that have names associated with star, like the HAL Sitara ("morning star") trainer and the HAL Dhruv ("north star") helicopter.

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
How does India
reconcile it's military need to have the best fighter vs an industrial policy need to build a domestic manufacturing industry?

Define "best aircraft". Keep in mind:
* It isn't just a product, but a logistical ecosystem. Lack of control over the whole ecosystem imposes costs that are often underestimated, and negates superior capabilities on paper.
* The LCA was built to IAF detailed requirements. The entire test flight program has been conducted by IAF pilots deputed to the program.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:04 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 7):
Might the name be loosely translated as "Star"?

No but i suppose you could translate it as the radiance of a star - the solar corona for example. That however is the classical sanskrit usage of the word. The vedic sanskrit usage as "Agneya Tejomaya" (the warmth/power of the fire) implies a cause-effect relationship - from the root Tej - or to sharpen. Thus the Tejas is the effect (kinetic energy) of the cause - the star (potential energy). The star enables - the radiance does

The connotations of a kind of energy wielded by the supreme being for the accomplishment of his/her cosmic task. Later on however its association with fire became permanent.

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
How does India reconcile it's military need to have the best fighter vs an industrial policy need to build a domestic manufacturing industry?

It doesn't - The Tejas-arjun-IGDMP programmes were all started with the implicit acknowledgement that the first in the series would be somewhat inferior to competing products, but would lay the intellectual foundation for future success. Much like the shafrir missile of the Israelis was a dud but later metamorphosed into the potent Derby-Python combo.

Basically its an investment in India's human resources.

Quoting comorin (Reply 8):
Does it surpass its competition for the intended mission?

Vis a vis India's neighbours - yes - at least at the stage of conception in the late 80's. At least till the sino soviet thaw made the J-11 a reality that paradigm remained. However It is still arguably superior electronically to the J-10, J-11- benefiting from the fact that most western nation are much more willing to share tech with India than they are with China or Pakistan..

That said most of India's weapons development suffers from 5 major flaws

1) General staff lacking clarity of vision
2) Parliament is supreme - an unfortunately filled with donkeys
3) DRDO scientists do not do military service hence are oblivious to operational reality
4) Over-estimation of ones abilities - underestimation of the enemy
5) Needs based on international trends and not on domestic needs - The military corollary of that bad Asian habit of "Saving Face"
6) Purchases based on prestige value in-spite of their nuisance value
7) Focus on procurement instead of using what one has wisely - ie the complete opposite of the old dictum "it doesn't matter what you fight with but how you fight with what you have."


Curious how these trends are not modern but in fact have their roots in Indian strategic culture dating back to about 650BC . See "India and the ancient world" by KM Pannikar for details - especially the chapters dealing with

1) the Indian failure to first develop a domestic breed of horse and then persisting in that foolhardy effort even when cavalry lost its paramountcy to infantry -
2) how Indian longbows failed against alexander's army even though they were superior to the English Longbow used more 1500 years later to such devastating effect at Crecy and Agincourt.
3) The persistent use of the elephant even though it was notoriously unreliable and exposed the leadership to direct attack on the battlefield. In fact of the 20 major battles that shaped Indian history the elephant was the prime cause of defeat in 17 - not enemy elephants - ones own elephants

Scary how history tends to repeat itself as farce or tragedy.
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:53 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 10):
2) how Indian longbows failed against alexander's army even though they were superior to the English Longbow used more 1500 years later to such devastating effect at Crecy and Agincourt.

Alexander was defeated at the borders of India. After sweeping all the way from Europe through the Middle East, he failed to make any headway across the Indus.

India has historically had a tendency to not focus on military capability. Instead, for millenia, the focus was on commerce, culture and science; the end result being that many of these accomplishments were the casualty of plunder by Islamic and British invaders. China and India historically have been the two largest economies, a situation that will again be the case in the coming decades.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 10):
The Tejas-arjun-IGDMP programmes were all started with the implicit acknowledgement that the first in the series would be somewhat inferior to competing products, but would lay the intellectual foundation for future success.

What competitors exist to the Tejas, for the price, weight class, performance and access to local production and parts supply ? Arjun has already proved itself significantly superior to the current IA MBT - the T-90. Whether it compares well to others like Leopard are at best conjecture, since it has never done a 1 on 1 trial.
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:36 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 7):

Sorry just to conclude the language class above TEJAS in this sense means Enabler - if you want to put a more warlike militaristic - menacing spin on it i believe "ENFORCER" would convey the entire philosophy behind the word Tejas

"Radiant" IMHO is a most unfortunate translation since if it was radiant at night - in an era of stealth - every enemy spotter and IR missile worth its name would be able to detect it. Also if it "Lit up" radars (since luminosity is a sub-function of radiance) it would be dead duck wouldnt it?

So LCA-Tejas "Enforcer"



Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):
headway across the Indus
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):
case in the coming decades.

Irrelevant - Alexander's defeat in India was long term geostrategic. That post specifically refered to Porus's misuse/abuse/non-use of longbows at the micro-strategic battle of the Hydaspes.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):
What competitors exist to the Tejas

The JF-17, Early variant F-16s, Gripen, Mirage 2000, Ching Kuo, KAI T-50 - but you're narrowing "competitor" to simply commercial competitor as opposed to "competitor" in the broadest possible sense of that word.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):
for the price, weight class, performance

Irrelevant - look at the MRCA contest that pits different weights, classes, performance, TOT conditions, capabilities and price against each other.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):
access to local production and parts supply

Thats a monopoly ure talking about. A condition by whose very definition competition is excluded. If it were not then the MRCA contest wouldn't be happening would it? Where exactly is there internal competition in defence in India? I'm sure the tatas, ambanis and L&T would do a great job - but DRDO is at the forefront of voices trying to prevent private entry beyond a certain level - since their cushy govt jobs would be at stake. In fact the construction of the Nuclear Submarine Arihants hull was given to L&T precisely because Narasimha Rao deemed the programme too important to be left to the DRDO's willy-nilly ways

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 11):
Arjun has already proved itself significantly superior to the current IA MBT - the T-90


I don't deny that the Arjun MAY be superior - but if you read what I posted I was talking about the conceptualisation of the project rather than its conclusion. A slightly inferior product was acceptable - that it MAY have turned out superior is an added bonus.
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BarfBag
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:15 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 12):
That post specifically refered to Porus's misuse/abuse/non-use of longbows at the micro-strategic battle of the Hydaspes.

You're saying that indisputable victory in a war is not as relevant as the at best (we're talking about events from 330BC) arguable minutae regarding how particular weapons were allegedly (mis)used ? Interesting. That Alexander lost is without question. That Porus may or may not have known how to hold a bow is conjecture handed down across ~140 generations.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 12):
The JF-17, Early variant F-16s, Gripen, Mirage 2000, Ching Kuo, KAI T-50 - but you're narrowing "competitor" to simply commercial competitor as opposed to "competitor" in the broadest possible sense of that word.

None of them come close to fitting the specific IAF requirements in terms of both price and performance. You either have cheaper options without enough capabilities sold by PRC, like the JF 17, or over-expensive options like Gripens with the added implicit cost due to lack of local production and technology base.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 12):
Thats a monopoly ure talking about. A condition by whose very definition competition is excluded.

And you're looking at a commercial acquisition process while entirely ignoring military and strategic imperatives. Take the JF17. Seriously. Buy from PRC ?

No weapon runs in isolation. In peacetime and at war, what matters is availability and serviceability. Access to a local military-industrial complex is not a 'monopoly'. Every military power built its own armaments production base. There's a good reason for it - anyone can refuse to sell you what you need during wartime, whether its a bandage or a bullet.

The MRCA deal is, if anything, merely a symptom of the very lack of strategic thought you described earlier. Personally, my opinion is that the deal ought to be scrapped and the money spend on MCA/PAKFA.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 12):
I don't deny that the Arjun MAY be superior - but if you read what I posted I was talking about the conceptualisation of the project rather than its conclusion.

But the Arjun was NOT meant to be a 'let's learn how to build a tank' program. It came in response to the PA's attempts to acquire the Abrams in the mid-1980s. In fact, Zia was killed when his plane crashed upon return from the Abrams desert trials he went to see. India first considered procuring the Leopard, and then decided to put money into the building a competent platform in the Arjun. Until the 90s, the Arjun was just a program on paper with no money backing it.

It is absolutely true that in several cases India tried to build something complex with no prior skill. That applies to Arjun, the HAL Dhruv and LCA. It even applies to the Navy. How many countries' first swing at building a submarine locally was an SSBN, like India did with the Arihant class fleet ballistic missile subs ? The result was a project managers nightmare. However, as messy as the project implementation may have been, the end result in each case was still an extremely competent product tailored to our needs. Every weapons platform undergoes iterative development anyway. Building locally means we can hone it in a manner no imported product can ever be.
 
comorin
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:24 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 12):

Very interesting and thoughtful post.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):

Excellent debate! I learned a lot from it. You both get field commissions to AVM!

I suspect building tanks and submarines involve a tremendous amount of technology transfer too. BB brings up the Israeli example, but I am sure there was a lot of 'informal' tech transfer going on there too from the US    


So back to the topic. What exactly is the mission of the aircraft - what does an LCA do? What if it had to go against a bogey F-22 from across the border? Is it possible to use larger numbers of cheaper aircraft to overcome fewer but superior planes? Or am I missing some concept here?

On a closing note: don't forget guys, the Battle of the Brahmaputra is coming up soon....
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:47 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
That Alexander lost is without question. That Porus may or may not have known how to hold a bow is conjecture handed down across ~140 generations.

Really? And yet the Indo Greek kingdom continued for a full 1300 years after in the same region - and extended all the way to Ujjain in UP. Do you recall any Greco Indian kingdoms in Thrace, Anatolia or the Greek littoral? Big difference between defeat, fatigue and fizzle out. How many times did Ghori and Ghazni Lose? And yet who won the war? How long was India under Muslim rule? 700 years sound about right? Hmmm lemme see Indo Greek kingdoms last 1300 years - some defeat Alexander suffered . If that's defeat Then i pray to all the gods and goddesses to shower defeat upon us.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
None of them come close to fitting the specific IAF requirements in terms of both price and performance

Again what proof do you have that the JF-17 is inferior (electronic superiority i gladly concede but not performance) ? added to the fact that it's significantly cheaper (15-17 mil) as opposed to the last price estimate of the Tejas which ran at not less than 27 mil - that figure was in 2001 - (it was intended to cost 15 mil). The early variant F-16s, T/A-50, Gripen, Mirage 2000 all meet or significantly exceed the LCA's performance parameters and the first two are also competitive price wise

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
without enough capabilities sold by PRC, like the JF 17
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
Take the JF17. Seriously. Buy from PRC ?

Not for internal competition but the JF-17 is what the Tejas is up against in the external market - and many countries have no scruples buying chinese.

Lemme see to last count the JF-17 has 4 solid customers plus 4 more expressions of interest - How many foreign customers have lined up to purchase the Tejas and how many expressions of interest have we had? The proof of the pudding is in the eating and evidently no one wants to eat the Tejas not even the IAF.

Apparently the Tejas answers a question nobody asked.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
In peacetime and at war, what matters is availability and serviceability.

Things the IAF, IN and IA have failed spectacularly at time and again because of poor maintenance, poor logistics and extraordinarily poor resource management. Contrast how Israel was able to maintain and then copy the Mirage 3 even after france imposed a ban in 67, compared to how US sanctions completely stalled the LCA post 98 and imagine how Germany embargoing the MTU engines and Renk transmissions for the Arjun would gut it especially given that the indigenous engine + transmission cant deal with weights more than 40 -45 tonnes and the Arjun now weighs in at 58.

Availability and serviceability as far as the Tejas go - are chimera's as they are with the Arihant and Nukes

The most significant clause of the Indo-US Nuke agreement that everybody misses is the "loss" clause which states that 99 grammes of every HEU and 999 grammes of every LEU shipment can go "unaccounted" without triggering enquiries. This loss is not linked up to half life period. The sanction implicitly is for a level of siphoning to take place since 99 grammes of HEU is a VERY significant quantity given that all you need is 1.5 kgs of it to produce a 75kt yield fission device (if the bomb design is good)

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
The MRCA deal is, if anything, merely a symptom of the very lack of strategic thought you described earlier.

But more so its an admission of failure

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
MCA/PAKFA.

another 2 white elephants. I'm curious how the DRDO that has yet to successfully complete the LCA wants to move onto another plane and infact has wanted to for the last 12 years. The PAK-FA too is a dunce - pls see my posts in the relevant thread.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 13):
But the Arjun was NOT meant to be a 'let's learn how to build a tank' program. It came in response to the PA's attempts to acquire the Abrams in the mid-1980s.

The arjun design started of in 1972 The Abrams didnt even enter the picture till much later and Zia ul Haq died in 89 while talk of M1 purchase started in 86 WELL AFTER the Arjun had moved past conceptualisation into design phase.

Also since the Arjun and Alexander are not aviation related i'd love to continue this discussion with you through PM

Quoting comorin (Reply 14):
What exactly is the mission of the aircraft - what does an LCA do?

Nothing that dozens of other aircraft cant - except 1 - provide shopping money for DRDO spouses association.

Quoting comorin (Reply 14):
What if it had to go against a bogey F-22 from across the border?

Unrealistic scenario - Niether China nor Pakistan will ever be considered for F-22/F-35 sale. It will probably

DEFEAT - F-6s F-7s A-5s J-8 Mirage-5 (generation gap )
HOLD OUT WELL AND PROBABLY DEFEAT - JF-17's (superior electronics)
HOLD OUT WELL AND PROBABLY LOSE TO - J-10's, F-16 C/D (J-10 houses a bigger Radar, better TWR, IRST)
LOSE To - J-11, Su-30MKKs, F-16 Block 50, 60


Quoting comorin (Reply 14):
Is it possible to use larger numbers of cheaper aircraft to overcome fewer but superior planes?

Of course - call it what you will - swarming is the new buzzword but the old doctrine was called "Concentration of Force" - 7 T-34s lost for every Tiger but the T-34 rolled into Berlin and the Tiger did NOT roll into Moscow.

Quoting comorin (Reply 14):
Or am I missing some concept here?

Nope - As the Conqueror and winner of WW2 - Djugashvilli said - "Quantity has a quality all of its own"

China chose Quantity
The West chose Quality
India was too confused to choose.
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comorin
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:44 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 15):
China chose Quantity
The West chose Quality
India was too confused to choose.

  

Again, thanks for a very interesting post.

My question on the LCA was that I thought it was an extension of the DH Vampire - Mig21 line and mission of another era.
Then I thought at least it's a lot cheaper. At least it's safer - too many IAF pilots killed on ageing aircraft.
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:55 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
My question on the LCA was that I thought it was an extension of the DH Vampire - Mig21 line and mission of another era.

It started out right from the beginning as a multiroler - Mostly to counter the 3000+ odd aircraft the Chinese had in AD but a secondary strike package was always to be included. Now with computer advances those distinctions don't exist. But you are correct - It was envisioned as a mig 21 replacement.

But just slightly different in that it was meant to be a cheap- higher quality (than china and pak) quantity killer - They would quantitatively out-gun the PAF and qualitatively overcome the PLAAF. As it turned out - and this is something DRDO doesnt seem to get - is that the balance of power shifts constantly - What was reality in 1980 is no longer true any more.

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
Then I thought at least it's a lot cheaper.

Not any - more - IMO not enough to offset the Chinese quantity vs quality matrix in sufficient numbers

Quoting comorin (Reply 16):
At least it's safer

Hopefully! we wont know till its goes into production and then again it will be quality control - maintenance dependant.

[Edited 2010-06-05 08:03:32]
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comorin
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:41 pm

Thanks, SMERSH.

Playing armchair Chief of Staff, looking at my two major threats who happen to be nuclear states, it would seem that there is no scenario where a conventional war could break out - a defensive benefit of having nuclear weapons. I would wonder in what scenario I would use air assets, except to prevent a first strike against strategic assets (missiles etc.). There will not be another Pak-India land war nor an Indo-China confrontation. So the mission in the skies becomes:

1. Patrolling the skies and intercept any nasties sneaking across.
2. Intercept any nukes inbound.
3. Protect strategic assets in case of a first strike.
4. Protect against airborne terrorist threats.
5. Patrol the seas against submarine-based missile threats.


India can be threatened in two ways: either the enemy is preparing for a nuclear strike or has already launched. Once launched you can't intercept a nuke - MAD is the only consequence. That leaves the IAF just needing 3 commands - a Strategic Air Command, a Missile Command and a Space Command. A credible nuclear deterrent is one that cannot be knocked out, and that is the job of the IAF. I don't see a ground support or dogfight scenario in its future role.

My 2 cents...
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:44 pm

An Achievement undoubtly though a bit of time delay.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:39 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 15):
And yet the Indo Greek kingdom continued for a full 1300 years after in the same region - and extended all the way to Ujjain in UP. Do you recall any Greco Indian kingdoms in Thrace, Anatolia or the Greek littoral? Big difference between defeat, fatigue and fizzle out.

There are still Neo-Nazis in Europe. Does that mean Germany did not lose WW2 ? Reality is fairly straightforward. Alexander the Great never made it past the border of India, despite previously having annihilated the far superior Persians under Darius. I'm afraid all the non-sequiturs about assorted Muslim invaders are far too tedious for me to address, here or in private. I have a life to live and a woman to keep happy  
Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 15):
The arjun design started of in 1972 The Abrams didnt even enter the picture till much later and Zia ul Haq died in 89 while talk of M1 purchase started in 86 WELL AFTER the Arjun had moved past conceptualisation into design phase.

Of course there were designs on paper. It amounted to very little; no financial commitment towards even building a prototype was received until the early 1990s. The Arjun tank project as such, started in the early 1990s; they could have funded it anytime in the previous 20 years, but did not - the thrust to do so came from the PAs interest in the Abrams. As for Arjun's performance: March 25 2010: Arjun tank outruns, outguns T-90 in comparative trials. The author is a current defence correspondent and former IA tankman.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 15):
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and evidently no one wants to eat the Tejas not even the IAF.

Induction to IAF begins in 2010-11. No one else is going to get it until the MoD and IAF say it's available for sale. I'd rather the IAF/IN alone get the LCA, at least, for the next decade.
Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 15):
Availability and serviceability as far as the Tejas go - are chimera's as they are with the Arihant and Nukes

You'd know the serviceability of an aircraft that is not even in service how ? A domestically build LCA will have far greater serviceability in wartime once in service simply because it doesn't have to be transported to Russia or whoever the supplier nation is, for major overhaul.

There's a lot of talk about how the MRCA and 'transfer of technology' will help. It reminds me of a revealing interview with a senior Sukhoi engineer during a recent Aero India event. When asked about transfer of technology, he shot back "what is this transfer of technology ? (patting his chest) I am technology". He made an excellent point - no amount of repair manuals is going to replace that kind of capability. The role of projects like LCA and Arjun are to build not just the production and maintenance facilities, but that class of scientific power domestically.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 15):
Again what proof do you have that the JF-17 is inferior (electronic superiority i gladly concede but not performance) ?

That's easy - it'll never serve in the IAF. Therefore it's performance is non-existent. You can pretend that this is a technical comparison, but that is not what I originally stated:
"None of them come close to fitting the specific IAF requirements in terms of both price and performance."
If it is Chinese or Paki, it's very simple - it doesn't fit IAF parameters, particularly not a repackaged Fishbed like the JF17.

Quoting comorin (Reply 18):
India can be threatened in two ways: either the enemy is preparing for a nuclear strike or has already launched. Once launched you can't intercept a nuke - MAD is the only consequence. That leaves the IAF just needing 3 commands - a Strategic Air Command, a Missile Command and a Space Command.

The strategic doctrine now places less emphasis on air-dropped nukes and instead focusses on road/rail mobile and undersea-launched nuclear weapons (one SSBN is undergoing sea trials, while two others are under construction). Together with this, an exoatmospheric and endoatmospheric ABM system is in development.
 
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:24 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 18):
it would seem that there is no scenario where a conventional war could break out

With China yes - but given how shockingly irresponsible the Pakistan Army can be and has been in the past - especially given the cabal of drug-pedallers who run it .... The nuance that comes out of rawalpindi is the same masochistic drivel that we used to hear from the right in Inter-war - Weimar republic Germany. "The army would have won were it not for the civilian leadership" etc. etc. etc. and we all know what a dangerous path that is to go down.

Quoting comorin (Reply 18):
Protect strategic assets in case of a first strike.

IMHO waste of a highly mobile asset for static defence. Best left to S-300, Arrow like systems, Given that terminal velocity of a 2500km range missile cant be more than Mach 9 or so, a large ground based radar would be able to detect it faster .

Better they patrol Pakistani skies and perform boost phase intercept if possible.

Quoting comorin (Reply 18):
Intercept any nukes inbound.

From Pakistan - possibly but i think from China that would be impossible given that Terminal velocity would reach speeds of 12-17 Mach.

Quoting comorin (Reply 18):
Patrol the seas against submarine-based missile threats.

Pak of course doesn't have SLBM's but with the new JL-2 missiles on Chinese SSBN's and a range of 8000km - the launch area would be far too great to patrol even with 30 large and 12 medium planes. Best to adopt the nato approach when a SSN plus static detectors in the Newfoundland-Greenland-Scandinavia gap would always track every single SSBN, but for that you need alliances with Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam/Singapore/Indonesia and Australia,, and given how completely unreliable India is as an ally i dont think anyone will touch us with a barge pole. Which leaves us with an option of building 3 SSNs for every SSBN

Given China's massive lead over India economically the 3:1 ratio is unsustainable.

Quoting comorin (Reply 18):
A credible nuclear deterrent is one that cannot be knocked out, and that is the job of the IAF

IMO precisely why it has to be sea based and not air based. SSBNs are harder to track than a big Air Force station with all the tell-tale signs of Nuclear weapons storage - which will probably be the taken out first. Planes project power but also vulnerability and their attack path can be guessed given their range limitations. SSBN's or SSNs on the other hand 1) increase the element of surprise 2) have no range limitations 3) are virtually impossible to detect 4) increase the launch area/ enemy must search area to and unfeasable area 5) can go south of Australia and sneak up an attack from the north pacific on china OR go south of Mauritius-diego garcia - well out of Pak SSM/Aircraft range

Problem is we're so taken in with our own image, and so full of this Ahimsa nonsense - i doubt we will have the resolve to launch a second strike. Second strike requires enormous determination and resilience and disciple - not just one part of the army but also civilians and leadership. It requires civil defence drills and constant practising of war plans and strike plans. Have you ever heard of any such thing happening in India? The one indisputable lesson of Indian history - is that if you take out the leader the rest of the country falls like dominoes. How often have we seen that happen with the cricket team? The nuclear doctrine leaves the order to a "Committee" ? when Delhi's blown up what will you have a committee of? naukrani's, jhadoo-pocha wallahs and chaprasis?

Given that to this day warheads have not been mated with delivery systems, are not allowed to be in armed forces possession, and the PM's callgirls/boys (depending on orientation) have more access and are treated better than the armed forces. Do you honestly think India will be in any position to launch a 3rd or 4th strike leave alone 2nd?


Lemme see - Nuke heading towards delhi - what do you think top leadership will do?

Sonia Gandhi - either call mummy in Tuscany-Lombardy-Liguria OR bankers in Switzerland/Lichtenstein
Rahul gandhi - Depending on what Sonia does - he will do the other
MM Singh - Sorry sir Madam Sonia's line is engaged - what can i do?
Chidambaram - "Modi is a murderer - he launched this attack - Pak Army is innocent"
Atal Behari - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Advani - will give a speech,and forget what he said 2 minutes later like he did with Kandahar
Jaswant Singh -will go to Beijing to hold hands - sing hindi chini bhai bhai and hand over the keys to Beijing
Modi - Probably the only one who can deal with the crisis - will be framed for it and hanged.
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Shmertspionem
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:27 pm

RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:59 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
There are still Neo-Nazis in Europe. Does that mean Germany did not lose WW2 ?

Do they rule europe? no - The indo-greeks RULED much of north India and all of central Asia.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
As for Arjun's performance: March 25 2010: Arjun tank outruns, outguns T-90 in comparative trials

You're debating a point - i never doubted .... as i said i'm happy to concede that the Arjun may have come of age.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
The author is a current defence correspondent and former IA tankman.

Yes and works for that jawan killer Barkha Dutt..... He who can does - he who cannot joins the press. With patriotic tankmen like these who needs the ISI?

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
It amounted to very little; no financial commitment towards even building a prototype was received until the early 1990s

The prototype was built in 82, first trials in 83 and publicly displayed in 84 .... pray how did they do it? papier-mache? money off a monopoly set mayhaps?

Here are my sources - where are yours?

http://www.zeenews.com/news596492.html
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03...present-form-can-never-be-our.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/arjun.htm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
nduction to IAF begins in 2010-11. No one else is going to get it until the MoD and IAF say it's available for sale. I'd rather the IAF/IN alone get the LCA, at least, for the next decade.

That's another way of saying - no expression of interest. This same DRDO was tom-tomming the EOI's from Brazil, Malaysia and South Africa for the Brahmos even before it had been operationalised or entered full production. The JF-17 had expressions of interest even on the drawing board.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
You'd know the serviceability of an aircraft that is not even in service how ?

Yes - by
1) calculating the foreign components in it,
2) the vitality of those components to its performance,
3) Foreign Vendor reliability
4) Past records of impediments/sanctions by foreign vendor governments

Its not rocket science you know

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
The role of projects like LCA and Arjun are to build not just the production and maintenance facilities, but that class of scientific power domestically.

This is exactly what i said in my first post. whats your point?

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 20):
That's easy - it'll never serve in the IAF. Therefore it's performance is non-existent. You can pretend that this is a technical comparison, but that is not what I originally stated:
"None of them come close to fitting the specific IAF requirements in terms of both price and performance."
If it is Chinese or Paki, it's very simple - it doesn't fit IAF parameters, particularly not a repackaged Fishbed like the JF17.

Same explanation given for the Ptolemaic flat earth world view - I cant see it therefore it cant be.

The F-22 will never serve in the IAF either - so It's performance is non existent?

It cant compete in India - therefore it cant be - Brilliant line of Logic
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BarfBag
Posts: 2374
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:03 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 22):
he indo-greeks RULED much of north India and all of central Asia.

Indo-greeks ? Do you call Parsis Indo-Iranians and Goans Indo-Portuguese too ? Those people stopped having anything to do with Greece in about two generations. We assimilate everyone. Even saree-wearing Sonia Gandhi  
Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 22):
i'm happy to concede that the Arjun may have come of age.
May have come to age ? Why the verbal contortions ? It wiped the frickin floor with the T-90. It's really not so hard to say it - the Arjun is a damn good MBT.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 22):
The prototype was built in 82, first trials in 83 and publicly displayed in 84

The two DRDO prototypes in the 1980s had nothing by way of real armour or a working gun; their trials were automotive tests, which they performed poorly in, due to the (T72 ?) engine used. That's not a tank, but a jeep on tracks .

It took the PA's interest in the Abrams for GoI to spend any money on the Arjun project, giving DRDO and CVRDE concrete design goals, with the first tanks themselves being producted by the mid 90s. Despite all the talk about '40 year old project' it is at most 20 years old, with a current order book of nearly 250 tanks (124+124).

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 22):
Yes and works for that jawan killer Barkha Dutt..... He who can does - he who cannot joins the press. With patriotic tankmen like these who needs the ISI?

Why the ad hominems at everyone from Ajai Shukla to presspersons and politicians ?
Why so much emotional involvement in the debate, as to bring up reams of ancient and medieval history in relation to a lightweight fighter ? Beyond a point it makes my eyes water from so many non-sequiturs.

I can just imagine what poor Porus thought - "I better beat this grizzly Greek dude though I'm not sure how to hold this bloody bow, or someone's going to blame the non-performance of some flying craft 2400 years in future upon me"  
 
Shmertspionem
Posts: 430
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sun Jun 06, 2010 7:38 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
It's really not so hard to say it - the Arjun is a damn good MBT.

The Arjuns become a damn good MBT!!!! happy? - smile a bit

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
Do you call Parsis I

It doesn't matter if i call them jhumritalaiya ka majhnoo or arumugaswamy apeetakuchalambal iyer - What matters is what they called themselves and how they saw themselves.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
The two

Money thrown at and Prototype are two different things - By your measure the Leopard 2 A5, A6, PSO, & EVO are not leopards and the 105mm M1 isnt an M1 at all. That tank had armour - it just wasn't thick enough or good enough. The Initial Leopard and M1 vehicles didn't have the same guns or turrets integrated in them either - That doesn't make them any less by way of leopards or M1's

The prototype PAK-FA doesn't have the systems of the Final PAK or its engines - so you wont count it as PAK_FA?

The French didn't throw money at dassault for the Mirage-2000 till it was fully developed - So Pre money thrown at mirage 2000s aren't mirages at all?

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
Why the ad hominems at everyone from Ajai Shukla to presspersons and politicians ?

Why not? Are you saying they're paragons of virtue and honesty? do you like the way they make out every CRPF jawan to be a murderer and give TV time to the families of every killed terrorist? You might find the slaughter of your fellow countrymen/women and the slandering of those who protect them to be something abstract and impersonal that doesn't affect you - i don't. .... not even my ex-countrymen/women

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
Porus thought

                    


Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
Why so much emotional involvement in the debate

Because till 2002 those were my tax rupees going down the drain. Money may grow on trees for you - but it doesn't for me.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 23):
ancient and medieval history in relation to

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it as farce or tragedy. And given how many times the same tragedy has repeated itself in India and your willingness to ignore-dismiss it all the more disheartening. Assimilation is not a substitute for defence - unless of course you find paying jaziya tax delightful.

[Edited 2010-06-06 00:49:11]
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comorin
Topic Author
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:28 pm

SMERSH, thank you for the very educational posts - I feel like I have spent the weekend at Staff College Wellington.

First of all a PJ to chill everyone out:

Q:What do you call a hooker in Pakistan?
A: Lahore.


Now back to the Clash of the Titans (SS and BB):

For better or worse, India lacks a charismatic leader today - leadership has devolved to committees, and the common man has no one to look up to. Only Indira and Vajpayee had the guts to act, though I disliked Indira. Incidentally, corruption in the GOI started during her regime.

I remember the Chinese Invasion and how the nation became one under Nehru. India still needs charismatic leadership - it is an illiterate democracy and needs a paternal and secular hand.

SMERSH, your hilarious portrayal of the second strike is so true; which kiramakoda will end up pushing the button?

Anyway, thank you both for your trenchant views.   
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:04 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 24):
Why not? Are you saying they're paragons of virtue and honesty? do you like the way they make out every CRPF jawan to be a murderer and give TV time to the families of every killed terrorist?

Personal attacks on them and such highstrung emotional involvement achieves nothing except to elevate your own blood pressure, and in the process benefit Pfizer, Merck etc. Running down every defence product and launching personal tirades at all and sundry (none of whom give a toss about what's posted here anyway) is not going to benefit your ex-country.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 24):
Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it as farce or tragedy.

And the weight of history can paralyze decisionmaking, preventing original thought because the mental faculties overwhelmingly focus on not repeating specific past failures, as opposed to figuring out how to win given the specific situation they're dealing with.

Comorin: Knock it off. No need to play the avuncular match referee  

Now, since this thread is about the LCA, here are some posts from Shiv Aroor's blog:
LCA Tejas high altitude testing at Leh IAF airbase
LCA night flight testing
LSP-4 first flight (topic of this thread)
Unrelated but of interest nevertheless:
First decent publicly released picture of India's first SSBN, INS Arihant
 
Shmertspionem
Posts: 430
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RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:45 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 26):
Running down every defence product

I'm yet to see you contradict a single one of my points. Thus far you've been throwing subjectivities and abstractions - and dubious ones at that - the world is flat, if i cant see it - it doesn't exist, monopoly is competition, money not thrown at prototype is not a prototype, different engine prototype is not a protoype, How do we gauge serviceability before it comes into service? etc etc. added to facts that are just plain wrong (Arjun didnt materialise before the 90s)

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 26):
launching personal tirades at all and sundry
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 26):
is not going to benefit your ex-country.

Listen in the western academic system one of the ways you destroy an argument is to destroy the person making the argument, his credibility or his bona-fides..... Its not nice... its not pleasant....but its accepted . Thats what i did.... you were the one who underlined his credentials - then couldn't defend him so now you give us this typical "lets not personalise this" line. Its one thing telling Comorin to quit being avuncular and then sermonising like the second coming of the Buddha with some disingenuous concern for my health thrown in for good measure.

As for politicos there's a huge difference between satire and personalising. get a sense of humour - a joke can get across an idea much more effectively than a 1000 lines of prose.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 26):
And the weight of history can paralyze decisionmaking
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 26):
original thought

So ignore it in toto? this is as brilliant as your flat earth argument earlier on. So let me get this straight - You believe that history is a burden that should be ignored - even while developing legacy weapons systems such as heavy tanks and unremarkable fighters. But then by extension you should believe that we should not have legacy equipment to fight legacy wars. Tell me where exactly do you see "original thought" in any Indian defence project?


I ask you this again specifically -

1) where do you see "originality" in Indian defence products or their deployment or their operational doctrine?
2) Also what "originality" do you associate with the Tejas specifically?
3) Can you specifically contradict the validity of my sources?
4) Can you specifically buttress the validity of yours without a monologue on morality?
5) Can you specifically and without abstraction or generalisation or moral sermons or some vague statement of parallel subjectivity - contradict my "running down" as you call it.

And please don't say "x y and z are original in India - that x y and z may also have existed elsewhere is irrelevant because India didn't consider it at that time"
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BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:54 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 27):
Listen in the western academic system one of the ways you destroy an argument is to destroy the person making the argument, his credibility or his bona-fides..... Its not nice... its not pleasant....but its accepted .

Very well. So statements on personal credibility are fine; since you're such a patriot who cares deeply for Indian defence, why are you in Australia ? Why not return to India and make a difference instead of launching a tirade at all and sundry - the people who work on the products that defend the country, the ones who decide on its defence, and the products themselves - while sitting in another continent ?

You're the dude who started posting on this thread by misstating events from 330BC in response to something as trivial as the story of a fighter production milestone. Stick to the context and folks will actually have the energy and inclination to respond, rather than be overwhelmed by all the ridiculous nonsequiturs you throw about - I'll simply ignore them, and you, when you do so.

Back to the thread topic, as I mentioned previously, the next step in the LCA program was to be the release of the naval LCA. This product has now been unveiled:
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/07...tos-part-3-naval-light-combat.html
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/TDL9wUwL0oI/AAAAAAAAK2U/IiZhIhEsOc4/s1600/VKSL8403-776719.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/TDL9xHSX_TI/AAAAAAAAK2c/IuzJu9Cxwq8/s1600/VKSL8419-780437.JPG
 
Shmertspionem
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 1:27 pm

RE: Indian AF Tejas Fighter Takes To The Skies..

Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:54 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 28):
you're such a patriot who cares deeply for Indian defence,

don't confuse patriot and care .... one doesn't need to be a patriot to care and in any case I never claimed to be a patriot. and there are two ways to care - one is to find holes - the other to fix them - I find the holes.... If you think the only people who care should wrap themselves in the flag and sing the national anthem at the drop of a hat - and avoid criticism at all times - go join the Nazi party.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 28):
nonsequiturs

Do you understand the meaning of the word non sequitur or did you pick that up from some SAT-GRE-GMAT word list? non sequitur means does not follow - pointing out a historical pattern is anything but "non sequitur". and only somebody who didn't understand the proper usage of the word could apply it in the context you have.

and again I notice - in this post you've responded to what you consider "non sequiturs"

so let me ask you the "sequitur" part again

1) where do you see "originality" in Indian defence products or their deployment or their operational doctrine?
2) Also what "originality" do you associate with the Tejas specifically?
3) Can you specifically contradict the validity of my sources?
4) Can you specifically buttress the validity of yours without a monologue on morality?
5) Can you specifically and without abstraction or generalisation or moral sermons or some vague statement of parallel subjectivity - contradict my "running down" as you call it.
6) Since you think history is an irrelevant burden - how do you support the procurement and development of legacy platforms like heavy tanks (with the emergence of netfires) and legacy fighters (with the emergence of stealth and optionally manned fighters)?
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