columba
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Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:37 am

So now it is official. Germany has send RFP to Agusta Westland, Boeing, Eurocopter and Sikorsky for a Navy helicopter as well as for a CSAR Helicopter for the Luftwaffe. Annoucements have been made at the ILA Air Show.

The most interesting option in my opinion comes with the Sikorsky CH 148 helicopter as it could be a common platform for both reuirements although it would be hard for Sikorsky to fulfill the Air Force performance requiremnts.

The article below says that for the CSAR order Eurocopter have been asked as well. This seems to be wrong. The NH 90 and EC 725 were considered too small earlier therefore it is more likely that FI meant Agusta Westland instead, which is offering the AW 101 to the Air Force (see second article).

This will be a very interesting decision as the German Minister of Defence is not very pleased with EADS due to the delays of the NH 90, Tiger and A400M. Therefore it is very likely that Sikorsky will get the Navy deal, as the CH 148 is also been favouvered by the Navy over the NH 90. Sikorsky announced that they are building up a team with German companies such as MTU and Rheinmetall and others.
Boeing is working together with EADS on the new HTH (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/military/read.main/123485/) so the CH 47 does not seem so far fetched as it seemed earlier.

For more information see the two articles below:

Quote:


Sikorsky is busy at the show assembling its team to bid for Germany's twin requirements for an air force combat search and rescue (CSAR) helicopter and a replacement for the navy's ageing Sea Kings.

Discussions with MTU Aero Engines are well advanced and a deal should be agreed during ILA, while an expected agreement with Rheinmetall is further off, said Sikorsky vice-president sales for Europe, the Middle East, Turkey and Africa, Joseph Gigantelli, at the show yesterday. Ruag and ZF Luftfahrttechnik have already signed up to the team.

Sikorsky aims to persuade Germany of the merits of choosing its S-92-based CH-148 Cyclone as a common platform for the separate air force and navy requirements, despite the fact that some of the former's performance requirements may not be met.
.....
The air force and navy selections are due to be made during the fourth quarter of 2010, leading to contract award in 2011. Boeing and Eurocopter are also in the running for the air force order, while the navy RFP was sent only to Eurocopter and Sikorsky.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...eam-for-german-helicopter-bid.html

AgustaWestland proposes AW101 for Luftwaffe CSAR requirement :

Quote:

AgustaWestland has pitched its AW101 platform as a means of meeting the German air force's combat search and rescue (CSAR) requirement.
....
The Luftwaffe requirement encompasses in-flight refuelling capability, enhanced self-protection and all-weather net-centric avionics, including satellite communications. It also seeks the ability to recover a seven-person team with the same number in the rescue-aircraft team.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...oses-aw101-for-luftwaffe-csar.html
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ThePointblank
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:39 am

Sikorsky is having problems meeting our performance requirements (seems the aircraft needs another engine upgrade and has missed weight targets, AGAIN for us). This is beyond the fact that they are already 3.5 years late...
 
mffoda
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:50 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 1):

A few more details regarding the CH-148 Program..........

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ones-Better-Late-Than-Never-05223/

CH-148 MHP: Systems & Milestones

CH-149: Rescue me!
The EH101 had been the Maritime Helicopter Program’s initial winner, and a civilian version currently serves in a search-and-rescue role as the CH-149 Cormorant. Canadian experiences with this type have been strained, however, due to reliability and readiness issues.

The H-92 is a larger derivative of the ubiquitous H-60 family that comprise most of the US Navy’s current fleet. it makes heavier use of rust-proof composite materials, and also sports uprated engines, a rear ramp, and other features that place it in a similar class to Europe’s NH90.

Initial CH-148 delivery was originally scheduled for November 2008, but that was moved to January 2009, then pushed back again to November 2010. In the wake of a very vague announcement about contract renegotiation and further program delays, observers began questioning whether the program’s initial dates were ever realistic, and whether even the revised dates can be depended upon. Their suspicions were justified when it was revealed that fully operational CH-148s with upgraded engines wouldn’t begin delivery until June 2012.

The CH-148 is based on Sikorsky’s H-92 Superhawk. As noted above, the helicopter uses aluminum and composite construction to reduce rust. Initial specifications called for GE’s 3,000 hp class CT7-8C, but weight growth will force another engine upgrade before the final design is ready. Standard self-sealing fuel tanks can carry up to 3,030 kg of fuel, and an in-flight refuelling probe allows in-air refueling.

Emergency flotation systems under the cockpit and in the tailboom are automatically deployed and are expected to work up to Sea State 5 conditions. If they fail, or aren’t practical, a 15-man life raft is installed in each sponson.
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columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:32 am

For those interested in this topic, here is a nice summary on Germany´s helicopter needs and the differences between the Ministry of Defense and Eurocopter:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...42-233177.xml&headline=Competitors

For the Navy SAR requirement Germany is looking at the NFH 90 and the CH 148, for the air force CSAR requirement Germany is looking at the S-92, the CH 47, the AW 101 and the NH 90 CSAR.

Eurocopter is still confident of winning due to commonality with the rest of the fleet even though the NH 90 only would provide an 80% solution but with far lower risk and cost.

I do hope that EADS does not get the deal. They have the monopoly with the German government and its about time to break that. 80 % is not acceptable in my opinion the soldiers should get the best needed to do the job. The US Army bough a hundreds of EC 145s/UH 72s Lakotas so 20 helicopters from Sikorsky or Boeing instead of Eurocopters should not be that big of a threat for the German economy.

Sikorsky even suggested that the aircraft needed for Germany should be assembled here. I guess probably at RUAG, the owner of the former Dornier company.I would appreciate that, a second assembly line for aircraft in Germany apart from an EADS company. I am still mad that they led Dornier go down the drain.....
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328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:02 pm

@ columba

Yes, the US Army ordered many eurocopters, but they also ordered many more bell helicopters at nearly the same time...


To come back to germany:

I agree with you that these two orders really shouldn´t go to EADS this time.
I would prefer the AW101, because it is already in production and proven.

But a sikorsky is a sikorsky, which has the same reputation in aviation as mercedes when it comes to luxury cars...

And also the Sikorsky SeaKing and CH53G are working perfect for the german forces since decades.


So, germany take your choice and please by american this time!


 
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:17 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
I would prefer the AW101, because it is already in production and proven.
Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
So, germany take your choice and please by american this time!

You contradict yourself here   But I agree the H-92/CH148 combination makes the most sense and while you at it put some CH 53K on the top.
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sasd209
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:32 am

Quoting columba (Reply 5):
and while you at it put some CH 53K on the top.

This would be very nice indeed, esp since the USMC is paying for most of the development costs associated with the project.   This somewhat lessens Germanys exposure in financial terms and may help provide them with what seems to be a first rate heavy-lift helo.
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:31 am

@ columba


No, i do not...

The AW101 is THE solution if they want a proven helicopter.

The Superhawk probably could be introduced later, but is the better long-term solution.
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:39 am

After the additional problems and delay from yesterday of the cyclone, probably the AW101 is a safe and low-risk solution.


Good to read that Sikorsky has similar problems as Eurocopter...  http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ns-to-canada-after-new-ch-148.html
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:32 pm

It seems the CSAR helio requirements really has only two choices, a CH-47G version of the US Army's MH-47G (the CH-47G would carry a lot more fuel than the CH-47F) or a German version of the USMC CH-53K.
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:07 am

@ KC 135TopBoom


I am not really sure, as our army is operating the CH53 in different versions in high numbers and it seems too expensive and big for a lot of missions.


I would really appreciate the Chinook for our CSAR-role, but as i know our government, it will be a one type solution for the CSAR, Navy and probably the Army.

The Chinook doesn´t fit to our frigates for sure, so the only options left are the cyclone and the merlin.


 
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:57 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 10):
@ KC 135TopBoom


I am not really sure, as our army is operating the CH53 in different versions in high numbers and it seems too expensive and big for a lot of missions.


I would really appreciate the Chinook for our CSAR-role, but as i know our government, it will be a one type solution for the CSAR, Navy and probably the Army.

The Chinook doesn´t fit to our frigates for sure, so the only options left are the cyclone and the merlin.

Well, I believe the most likely winner will be the CH 148 Cyclone. I am reading every available article available for this topic.
For the SAR requirement only Sikorsky and Eurocopter were asked, the AW101 is considered too big for our ships and therefore is not being considered by the Navy.
Knowing our government I agree it will be a one type solution and that only leaves the Cyclone, although in the latest Flug Revue there is a hint that some people in the air force actually prefer the Chinook.

If the new Boeing/Eurocopter HTH - which is basically an enlarged Chinook - offers commonality the Chinook might have a chance.
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328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:15 am

@ Columba


The Cyclone and the Merlin are not so much different in dimensions as it looks like first.

If you compare the technical data, it is true that the AW101 is a little bigger.


Both are a little too big for our frigate operations, which are more optimized for the Lynx.


I am really excited about the outcome of these competions!
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:15 am

The CH148 fits in the hangar of the F124 and F125 frigates, the Merlin not. The Lynx will stay as the helicopter on the F123 frigate and both will be retired at the same time.
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ThePointblank
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:50 pm

Comparing the size of the AW101 and the Cyclone, the Cyclone folded is 14.37m long, 4.72m wide, and 4.69m high, while the AW101 is 15.75m long, 5.60m wide, and 5.30m high. For reference, the NH90 is 13.5m long, 4.62m wide, and 4.1m high, and the Sea King is 14.38m long, 4.45m wide, and 4.88m tall.

For Germany, the hangars will need to be modified; probably by unifying the two smaller hangars onboard the Brandenburg and Sachen class frigates into a single hangar, and replacing the two hangar doors with a single one. It's a major structural mod for the hangars, and don't forget that the flight deck might need additional reinforcing.
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:16 am

@Columba


So, it would be:

F122s: Lynx
F123s: Lynx

F124s: open
F125s: open


Interesting competiton!

Another option could possibly be a maritime version of the bigger NH90 (higher cabin) which is operated by Sweden.
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:13 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 15):
Another option could possibly be a maritime version of the bigger NH90 (higher cabin) which is operated by Sweden.

No, Sweden is the only country that has opted for the higher cabin for a reason. The Swedish version lacks range and has less power.
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328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:34 am

@ Columba


That could possibly changed by more powerful engines, an updated rotor system and bigger fuels tanks...


 
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:55 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 17):
@ Columba


That could possibly changed by more powerful engines, an updated rotor system and bigger fuels tanks...

The cabin itself is too small. The navy wants that the helicopter can do all missions without having to install or deinstall all the equipment. The NH 90 is too small for that a higher cabin would not help.

Also if NHI had to develop a new engine, new blades etc...it would take another 10 years. The German military has to learn that sometimes it is easier to buy of the shelf and not develop another product that would not be ready for another 10-20 years.
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328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:43 pm

Are there any news?

The year is reaching its end.


 
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Dec 30, 2010 7:00 pm

This is the latest I know, an article regarding the CSAR decision in which it is said that the decision slips into 2011

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ction-process-slips-into-2011.html
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NoUFO
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:16 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 14):
Comparing the size of the AW101 and the Cyclone, the Cyclone folded is 14.37m long, 4.72m wide, and 4.69m high, while the AW101 is 15.75m long, 5.60m wide, and 5.30m high. For reference, the NH90 is 13.5m long, 4.62m wide, and 4.1m high, and the Sea King is 14.38m long, 4.45m wide, and 4.88m tall.
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The Frenchies use them for their frigates as well.
I don't know why the German Navy don't consider them. Or they stay with the (Super-) Lynx, as a replacement isn't really a top priority.

As for CSAR, a capability gap the German Army and Air Force need to fill as quickly as possible, I thought the CH-47 would be best. And even Sikorsky say Luftwaffe have "raised the bar pretty high", which would indicate that Boing or Westland are in the lead. However, I was told that the side door of the Chinook is too narrow to (halfway effortlessly) winch stretchers. It is only 1.22 meters, because the bulges along the sides of the midsection are in the way.
The AW 101 on the other hand would be introduced quite late due to a long list of orders.

Quoting columba (Reply 11):
Well, I believe the most likely winner will be the CH 148 Cyclone.

It would be a compromise. Not the best solution for CSAR (range with additional fuel tanks occupying some space in the cabin, small side-doors as well), and slightly too big and heavy for the frigates to accomodate two of them. Or the hangars would have to undergo some heavy modifications. The Cyclone would be a good replacement for the aging Sea Kings (SAR role), though.

[Edited 2010-12-30 15:17:34]
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:36 am

I think its funny people put anything as "less risk" than the CH47.

Its done, nothing left to prove on it.

If your not in a limited space like a frigate deck, its just alot more helicopter for your money. The extra size means far greater payloads are possible, along with very good range. Decades of inservice data and experience with the frame mean that it should have by far the lowest risk in future problems creeping up on an operator.

Of course trying to fit one on a frigate is... amusing. So its not going to be one stop shopping. That said the AW101 isn't either and I'm very much not sold on the idea of a 3 engine aircraft that has the same 1 engine out problems that all the traditional 2 engine helicopters have. More places to fail, with no gain in redundancy... Not a good plan. That said, it will be very interesting to see if they can keep it alive a couple of decades so they can upgrade it.... My feeling is that its just going to be a pile of junk till then.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:31 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 22):
That said the AW101 isn't either and I'm very much not sold on the idea of a 3 engine aircraft that has the same 1 engine out problems that all the traditional 2 engine helicopters have.

Actually, it is SOP that on long range missions with our CH-149's to have one of the engines on idle or shut down to conserve fuel while flying. The shut down or idled engine can be quickly spooled up if there is a need for the extra power. The AW101 has enough engine power to fly on 2 of the 3 engines.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:33 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 22):

I think you should read the thread again.
No one said the Chinook would provide a greater risk than every other option. Unless perhaps you consider and old design "risky", but if anything was said against the Chinook than it was that the German MoD would most likely prefer a single-type solution and that the side-door was too small. No one said those restrictions would only apply to the Chinook.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 22):
If your not in a limited space like a frigate deck, its just alot more helicopter for your money.

That was never disputed.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 22):
The extra size means far greater payloads are possible,

That was never disputed as well. But you would need the additional space and payload for the proposed role. If a smaller heli can do the job, why opt for a bigger one, and what are you going to tell the Federal Court of Auditors?

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 22):
I'm very much not sold on the idea of a 3 engine aircraft that has the same 1 engine out problems that all the traditional 2 engine helicopters have

As far as I know the AW101 does have a better engine-out reliability than 2-engine helis (everything else should come as surprise). That was one reason the White House considered purchasing one (or a couple) for VVIP transport.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 22):
That said, it will be very interesting to see if they can keep it alive a couple of decades so they can upgrade it.... My feeling is that its just going to be a pile of junk till then.

With the numbers of airframes already sold or on order it is extremely unlikely that the EH101/AW101 is going to be "a pile of junk" anytime soon.
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328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:05 am

I have the feeling we are getting Chinooks as an interim solution for CSAR.

Boeing and eurocopter are working together on studies about a future large transport helicopter to replace chinooks and CH53s. The first pictures looked like a NG version of the Chinook. (bigger)


And the navy will have to stick with the MH 90.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:05 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
But a sikorsky is a sikorsky, which has the same reputation in aviation as mercedes when it comes to luxury cars...

I wouldn't say that as todays Mercedes aren't anywhere near as well made as pre 1990's Mercedes, quality has taken a significant step back.
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:14 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
I wouldn't say that as todays Mercedes aren't anywhere near as well made as pre 1990's Mercedes, quality has taken a significant step back

No, they are back on track again.

Mercedes had some quality issues the last years, but all new models are better then ever.
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:22 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 25):
I have the feeling we are getting Chinooks as an interim solution for CSAR.

Boeing and eurocopter are working together on studies about a future large transport helicopter to replace chinooks and CH53s. The first pictures looked like a NG version of the Chinook. (bigger)


And the navy will have to stick with the MH 90.

I agree with you on the Chinnok.

On the MH 90 I disagree, I had the chance to talk to two Seaking pilots and they told me the Navy does not really want the MH 90 (not only the pilots) and they are pushing hard not to get the MH 90 but the Sikorsky instead. Let´s see if they can stand up against politcs.
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328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:41 pm

Are there any new rumours ?


We have a new minister of defense (thanks god...!!!).

So maybe at least the urgent CSAR decision will not be postponed time after time.
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:09 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 29):
Are there any new rumours ?


We have a new minister of defense (thanks god...!!!).

So maybe at least the urgent CSAR decision will not be postponed time after time.

No new rumors around, I am reading some German aviation forums on a regular basis but nothing new there either.
Also nothing from the Sea King pilot I know.
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328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:23 pm

According the latest issue of teh Flug Revue magazine, germany has signed a contract with Eurocopter.

Medevac kits which can be installed within 30minutes for the NH90 - delivery in july 2012!

 
 
L-188
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:11 am

Too bad the HH-60 wasn't requested/offered.

The Seahawks/jay hawk platform I would argue would be the most reliBleof the lot
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oldeuropean
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:00 am

Quoting columba (Reply 5):
Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
I would prefer the AW101, because it is already in production and proven.
Quoting 328JET (Reply 4):
So, germany take your choice and please by american this time!

You contradict yourself here
Quoting 328JET (Reply 7):
No, i do not...

The AW101 is THE solution if they want a proven helicopter.

You do! Agusta Westland is an Italian company!
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columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:41 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 31):
According the latest issue of teh Flug Revue magazine, germany has signed a contract with Eurocopter.

Medevac kits which can be installed within 30minutes for the NH90 - delivery in july 2012!

But this has nothing to do with Navy SAR or the Luftwaffe CSAR requirements. The Medevac kits are something else and will be used in Afganistan.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 34):
But this has nothing to do with Navy SAR or the Luftwaffe CSAR requirements. The Medevac kits are something else and will be used in Afganistan.

I agree that the navy helicopter is most likely a different story.

But to assume, that our small forces will receive Medevac kits in 2012 AND also a (bigger) CSAR helicopter is wishful thinking in times, where the saving of money seems to be more important than saving our soldiers...
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:17 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 32):
Too bad the HH-60 wasn't requested/offered.

Will probably not really fit on the heli deck of the F-122s as well as in the hangar. Have seen such a bird land on one of these couple of years ago during an excercice, and it was pretty tight. Nothing you want to do in daily ops.
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mffoda
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:57 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 36):
Will probably not really fit on the heli deck of the F-122s as well as in the hangar. Have seen such a bird land on one of these couple of years ago during an excercice, and it was pretty tight. Nothing you want to do in daily ops.



The flight deck can handle Sea King helicopters that have a 19 meter rotor diameter. The The SH-60 has a rotor diameter under 16.5 meters. The SH-60 is slightly heavier though...

The hanger can handle 2 Sea Lynx's... whose combined fully loaded weight is slightly more then a single SH-60.

It appears to be possible? But, the trade off would be 2 vs. 1 A/C.

As the F-122's are 20-28 years old now... I'm not sure this is really an issue?

The new class of F-125's would not have a problem as they are designed for 2 NH-90 class helicopters.
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L-188
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:39 pm

Still n the case I'd say a Blackhawks/Seahawks varient has a nearly thirty year operational history behind it. It works, it isnt experimental. And I would say in the case of a SAR bird, you can't get a bird that can handle north sea and Baltic seaweather than one that has been pulling fisherman out of the Bering sea for twenty years
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:58 am

According the latest issue of the "Flug Revue" the german navy will decide at years end.

In the moment the Cyclone is the favourite.
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:36 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 39):
In the moment the Cyclone is the favourite.

I love to hear that  
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
mffoda
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:31 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 39):
According the latest issue of the "Flug Revue" the german navy will decide at years end.

Can you provide a link? I couldn't find it on the website. Thanks
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
sasd209
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:46 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 40):
I love to hear that

Amen to that! Well, with just a few months left hopefully this will not be delayed..
 
mffoda
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:09 pm

I'll bet Sweden wished they purchased the H-60/92's now...  

"Sweden's NH90s To Be Ready 8 Years Late"

Quote:

"HELSINKI - The Swedish Army expects to have its newly acquired batch of three NH90 utility helicopters (renamed HKP-14s) ready for international deployment by April 2016, eight years later than originally planned.

The lag in deployment is due to production delays and delivery issues mainly attributable to French supplier NHIndustries."


http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=7689410&c=EUR&s=AIR
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:15 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 43):
I'll bet Sweden wished they purchased the H-60/92's now...

"Sweden's NH90s To Be Ready 8 Years Late"

Quote:

"HELSINKI - The Swedish Army expects to have its newly acquired batch of three NH90 utility helicopters (renamed HKP-14s) ready for international deployment by April 2016, eight years later than originally planned.

The lag in deployment is due to production delays and delivery issues mainly attributable to French supplier NHIndustries."

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=7689410&c=EUR&s=AIR

Our CH-148's are very late as well...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...on-helicopter-deal/article2167903/

Quote:
The missed deadline last fall represented the second time Sikorsky had fallen short on its promises after it was originally supposed to deliver fully certified helicopters to the Air Force in late 2008. Just before that deadline, Ottawa agreed to a contract extension to 2012.

After that first delay, the government and the company agreed that “interim” aircraft would be available on Nov. 30, 2011, in order to allow the Air Force to train crews. Those helicopters would not include all the necessary software to conduct a full range of missions and would not have the ability to exchange tactical data with its home vessel.

Defence officials noted with the Nov. 30 deadline looming, several critical matters remained incomplete, including the submission of engineering reports that allow defence officials get airworthiness certificates.

In order to help the process along, the defence project team set the lowest “most basic level of airworthiness certification,” which restricted the helicopter to flying over land and only during daylight. Even with those restrictions, the deadline couldn't be met.
 
mffoda
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:51 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 44):
Our CH-148's are very late as well...

Yes I know...

That's why I thought they would be perfect for the German Navy! Canada has helped refine and work the bugs out of the type. Well it's always an inconvenience to have a program come in late, Canada should start receiving them within months.

And in other News... Not a great news day for the NH-90 program  http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...gnostic-review-of-army-mrh90s.html

"The Australian army has accepted just 13 MRH90 helicopters from a 46-aircraft order. Problems have plagued the programme, including engine failure, transmission oil-cooler fan failures and the poor availability of spares."


I believe the H-60/92 program is a more mature offering for the German Navy. I hope they get what they want...
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:33 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 45):
Yes I know...

That's why I thought they would be perfect for the German Navy! Canada has helped refine and work the bugs out of the type. Well it's always an inconvenience to have a program come in late, Canada should start receiving them within months.

That's been delayed, and we are getting 'interim standard' aircraft that are only good for test flights during the day. And this situation will last for another couple of years.
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:35 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 41):
Can you provide a link? I couldn't find it on the website. Thanks

It is in the printed version only so far. I am sure a link will be shown on the website later-on.

 
 
columba
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:58 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 47):
It is in the printed version only so far. I am sure a link will be shown on the website later-on.

Where did you find the quote that a decision will be made at years end ? I have not found anything, only that the CH 148 is favored.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
328JET
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RE: Germany RFP For Navy SAR And Air Force Csar

Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting columba (Reply 48):
Where did you find the quote

Page 52 first sentence below the picture with the 2 french NH90s.



Rough translation: "decision for the navy when the the german forces re-organization is firmed at years end"


After all the delay and the urgent need from our navy, i see this a a clear sign for a decision at years end.

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