keesje
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Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jun 22, 2010 2:19 pm

Australia

C-130H's and Caribous to be replaced.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ches-a400m-c-295-to-australia.html

Would fit in nicely inbetween C130J and C-17 and provide tanker capacity for helicopters.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
mffoda
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:27 pm

Quoting keesje (Thread starter):

Why would they want to add two new types of aircraft... to replace what? 10 A/C or less?

"Would fit in nicely inbetween C130J and C-17 and provide tanker capacity for helicopters."

They are already flying 12 of the C-130J models and will be replaing only 2-4 C-130H models I believe?? If they needed additional tanker capacity for helicopters (does RAAF/Army currently even have air refuelable helicopters?) Wouldn't make more sense to replace the H's with KC-130J's??

And the C-27J seems a more logical choice to replace the Caribou's then the C-295... since they share the same engines and many systems with the C-130J. Clearly from training and maintenance point of view anyway...   
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keesje
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:22 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 1):
They are already flying 12 of the C-130J models and will be replaing only 2-4 C-130H models I believe?? If they needed additional tanker capacity for helicopters (does RAAF/Army currently even have air refuelable helicopters?) Wouldn't make more sense to replace the H's with KC-130J's??

Well it would add capacity the C130 and C-17 strategic transports. It can move around two Tigers, a NH90 or Blackhawk in side, in flight refuel Hornets, F35, Wedgetails, C130s. Fly serious loads high, fast & smooth over serious distances and still land / take-off from dirt strips.

There is a reason Lockheed is studying a fat Herc and Boeing a shrink C-17.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Devilfish
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:43 am

Quoting keesje (Reply 2):
There is a reason Lockheed is studying a fat Herc and Boeing a shrink C-17.

But the reason may not align with the RAAF's goals.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ted-in-more-c-130j-transports.html

Quote:
"Australia and Lockheed Martin have begun preliminary talks over the purchase of additional C-130J tactical transports early in the next decade.

It is not clear how many aircraft could be bought to supplement the Royal Australian Air Force's current 12 C-130Js (one pictured below), bought in 1999, but industry sources say about six more may be required.

[.....]

Canberra has been happy with the performance of its existing C-130s, which provide it with medium- to long-range transport with a short, dirt runway capability. This allows the aircraft to perform tactical and strategic transport duties, search and survivor assistance roles, disaster relief and medical evacuations.

Lockheed plugged the C-130J and its capabilities at the Avalon 2009 international air show in Geelong, Victoria, where George Standridge, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics' vice-president of business development, said 257 of the type have been ordered to date, and 171 delivered. These perform missions including air combat, air-to-air refuelling, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, weather reconnaissance, electronic combat and firefighting."



http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...lans-a45m-upgrade-for-c-130js.html

Quote:
"Australia has approved an A$45 million ($40 million) upgrade to its air force's fleet of 12 Lockheed Martin C-130J military transports.

'The Block 7.0 Upgrade will enable Australia's fleet of C-130J to meet new global air traffic management requirements and continue to operate in global airspace,' says defence minister John Faulkner.

'These will address system obsolescence, maintain coalition compatibility and enable these aircraft to comply with global air traffic standards.'"
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Gemuser
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:29 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 1):
They are already flying 12 of the C-130J models and will be replaing only 2-4 C-130H models I believe??

There are 12 H to be replaced. They (DOD) are currently talking about 6 replacements, RAAF is NOT happy.

Quoting mffoda (Reply 1):
And the C-27J seems a more logical choice to replace the Caribou's then the C-295... since they share the same engines and many systems with the C-130J. Clearly from training and maintenance point of view anyway...

The C-27J was rejected in the past, the C-295 I don't know. The next attempt to replace the Caribou will the third, the first two failed because no aircraft could do the job the 'Boo did. IF Viking can get their act together fast enough and they might on the time scale in the FI article, then a modenised DHC-5 must have a show.

Gemuser
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:31 am

Quoting keesje (Reply 2):
Well it would add capacity the C130 and C-17 strategic transports. It can move around two Tigers, a NH90 or Blackhawk in side, in flight refuel Hornets, F35, Wedgetails, C130s.

The A-400 may be able to refuel the F/A-18s, but that is what they are buying the KC-30s to do. The RAAF version of the F-35, the "A" model will be boom refuelable, not probe and drogue. Last I heard the A-400 will not carry a boom, and will not refuel receivers than need booms, like the F-35, Wedgetail, or F-111s.

As far as "adding capacity", any airplane ordered will do that. The RAAF is already considering more C-130Js, and they still could order another 2-3 C-17s to "add capacity" instead of introducing another new type.

Isn't Germany still having trouble with their Tigers?
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:55 pm

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Stealthz
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:28 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 6):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Isn't Germany still having trouble with their Tigers?

Start up problems happen to many new aircraft,

Call me a cynic if you like but that is a worrying statement about an A/C that first flew almost 20 years ago!
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keesje
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:27 pm

Airbus holds talks with 36 countries interested in buying A400m military transport plane

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...400m-military-transport-plane.html

Priority seem to have Brazilië, Chili, Saoedi-Arabia, UAE, India and Australia. And he upcoming JFTL competition.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Stealthz
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:43 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 8):
and Australia.

Where do you get that from?

I see Australias's priority in replacing the Caribou rather than filling an (imaginary) gap at the heavy end!

As for the A400 replacing the Hercs, that would make Oz Airlift far to slanted towards the heavylifters.
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:27 pm

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Devilfish
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:44 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 4):

The C-27J was rejected in the past

What was the basis for the rejection - price?

Quoting gemuser (Reply 4):
the C-295 I don't know. The next attempt to replace the Caribou will the third, the first two failed because no aircraft could do the job the 'Boo did.

Was it big for the requirement? Maybe the CN-235 would be a better fit as it is roughly in the same capacity and performance range.....

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Photo © Leonardo L. de Mello Menezes

Quoting stealthz (Reply 9):
I see Australias's priority in replacing the Caribou rather than filling an (imaginary) gap at the heavy end!

I still believe the Spartan would be ideal for that role.....

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Photo © Bruce Leibowitz



[Edited 2010-07-04 16:55:31]
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Stealthz
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:07 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 10):
Last week, http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

Thanks for that, missed that article.

Still pretty convinced there is no real opportunity here for the A400, likely it was included to raise the visibility of the C295 proposal as a 'bou replacement.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:02 pm

Talks with 36 countries about sales of the A-400? I just cannot imagine anyone seriously considering the A-400 at now an increased price per unit and reduced capabilities from the original contract with the EU countries.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:50 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Talks with 36 countries about sales of the A-400? I just cannot imagine anyone seriously considering the A-400 at now an increased price per unit and reduced capabilities from the original contract with the EU countries.

A strong selling point for this modern 37t outsize tactical transport seems: no competition.

There is also a chance that it just meet/ exceeds its promised performance specs from the start, just like the A380 and A330F.

.
A400M #1 at ILA, with 17 tonnes "payload"
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474218
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:58 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 8):
Airbus holds talks with 36 countries interested in buying A400m military transport plane

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...400m-military-transport-plane.html

Priority seem to have Brazilië, Chili, Saoedi-Arabia, UAE, India and Australia. And he upcoming JFTL competition.

I think the "Telegraph" article should have been tittled:

'Airbus holds talks with 36 countries Airbus would like to try and talk into buying A400M's'.

Is that Belize or Brazil and who is Saoedi-Arabia?

An A-400M would be a big step up for the Balize Self Defence Force's Islander, as in one (1) Islander?
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:49 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 14):

There is also a chance that it just meet/ exceeds its promised performance specs from the start, just like the A380 and A330F.

...? Like dispatch reliability?
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Devilfish
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:27 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 8):
Priority seem to have Brazilië

I doubt Brazil would torpedo its own airlifter program especially after the FAB committed to it - despite the disparity in payload capacity.....

http://www.aereo.jor.br/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/concep%C3%A7%C3%A3o-KC-390-imagem-Embraer.jpg

As you pointed out in the other thread, LM had that to watch out for. And it's not like Brazil would embark on a heavy expeditionary deployment anytime soon.

Quoting keesje (Reply 14):
A400M #1 at ILA, with 17 tonnes "payload"

So, the A400M is resorting to the same flying antics as the C-27J does at airshows.  bigthumbsup 

[Edited 2010-07-06 10:43:48]
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:33 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 14):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Talks with 36 countries about sales of the A-400? I just cannot imagine anyone seriously considering the A-400 at now an increased price per unit and reduced capabilities from the original contract with the EU countries.

A strong selling point for this modern 37t outsize tactical transport seems: no competition.

There is also a chance that it just meet/ exceeds its promised performance specs from the start, just like the A380 and A330F.
Quoting JBirdAV8r (Reply 16):
...? Like dispatch reliability?

Or the A-400 low level capability, the 37 tonne capability (which is questionable), or years later tasnker capability?

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 17):
Quoting keesje (Reply 14):
A400M #1 at ILA, with 17 tonnes "payload"

So, the A400M is resorting to the same flying antics as the C-27J does at airshows.

Doing that with 17 tonnes is a long way from doing it with 30, or 37 tonnes. Just what capability is that manuver suppose to show? I can think of no reason to go more than 90 degrees of bank in a big airplane, it gives you no tactical advantage, plus you expose your belly at more than 90 degrees.
 
474218
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:59 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Just what capability is that manuver suppose to show?


From the position of the left hand aileron, whatever he was doing he is trying to undo real quick.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:29 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
From the position of the left hand aileron, whatever he was doing he is trying to undo real quick.

Or the photographer turned the camera. Without a horizon reference who knows what the actual manuver is.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:42 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Just what capability is that manuver suppose to show?


From the position of the left hand aileron, whatever he was doing he is trying to undo real quick.
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 20):
Or the photographer turned the camera. Without a horizon reference who knows what the actual manuver is.

Both correct assumptions.

But this entire thread is BS as it is no more valid that EADS saying there was a market for 400 A-400s in North America.
 
santafejay
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:41 am

I'm surprised they would consider the C-295 ahead of the C-27J unless it's part of an attractive deal. That being said it's hard to imagine that the A400M can come in at a reasonable price unless Airbus/EADS plans on taking a loss. The A400M's problems are well known and the engineers have thier work cut out for them if the plane is ever going to live up to expectations.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:01 pm

Quoting santafejay (Reply 22):
That being said it's hard to imagine that the A400M can come in at a reasonable price unless Airbus/EADS plans on taking a loss. The A400M's problems are well known and the engineers have thier work cut out for them if the plane is ever going to live up to expectations.

It is a big hill for EADS to climb. I think many countries took notice when EADS refused to honor the original contreact wit its EU customers.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:34 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Just what capability is that manuver suppose to show?


From the position of the left hand aileron, whatever he was doing he is trying to undo real quick.
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 20):
Or the photographer turned the camera. Without a horizon reference who knows what the actual manuver is.

Both correct assumptions.

It's a FBW aircraft. The aircraft measures all relevant parameters continuously and makes sure the aircraft stays within its flight enveloppe. In this case The pilot knows and just pulls the stick as far as he can because he knows the aircraft will stop at (pre programmed) 120 degrees and make sure the aircraft stays under control.

Quoting santafejay (Reply 22):
I'm surprised they would consider the C-295 ahead of the C-27J unless it's part of an attractive deal.

I think they are two different aircraft, the C-295 being the smaller/lighter/cheaper one. What fits best depends on the requirements.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
It is a big hill for EADS to climb

No serious competition & a lot of demand helps.

The contracted price for the launch customers was extremely low. Even price rises of additional billions will make it good value for money compared to bigger aircraft lacking its tactical performance.

About the "technical issue" haubting the program, I sense a lot of hope and little substance here. So lets bring up reliable sources. Not the usual cheap shots by folks with an agenda or politicians hating having to pay more.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Devilfish
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:17 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 24):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
It is a big hill for EADS to climb

No serious competition & a lot of demand helps.

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Photo © Oleg V. Belyakov


There might be if the twinjet version of the above ever takes off from CATIA.....


.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:14 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 24):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 21):
Quoting 474218 (Reply 19):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 18):
Just what capability is that manuver suppose to show?


From the position of the left hand aileron, whatever he was doing he is trying to undo real quick.
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 20):
Or the photographer turned the camera. Without a horizon reference who knows what the actual manuver is.

Both correct assumptions.

It's a FBW aircraft. The aircraft measures all relevant parameters continuously and makes sure the aircraft stays within its flight enveloppe. In this case The pilot knows and just pulls the stick as far as he can because he knows the aircraft will stop at (pre programmed) 120 degrees and make sure the aircraft stays under control.

Rolling into 120 degrees of bank is not a normal manuver that pilots do in large aircraft. There are only two ways to recover from that, continue to roll the aircraft through another 240 degrees to get back to wings level (not usually recommended), or roll back that 120 degrees to wings level. Either way, expect a loss of airspeed and maybe a drop of the nose below the horizon.

We do not know if this is truely a 120 degrees of bank turn, as the camera angle makes all the difference. But clearly the left outboard airilon is deflected to roll back to a wings level attitude. If the camera is level, then the aircraft is also climbing. The right side elevator seems top also be deflected to a nose down position. Climbing in this amount of bank will decrease airspeed rapidly.

Quoting keesje (Reply 24):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 23):
It is a big hill for EADS to climb

No serious competition & a lot of demand helps.

The contracted price for the launch customers was extremely low. Even price rises of additional billions will make it good value for money compared to bigger aircraft lacking its tactical performance.

About the "technical issue" haubting the program, I sense a lot of hope and little substance here. So lets bring up reliable sources. Not the usual cheap shots by folks with an agenda or politicians hating having to pay more.

It is EADS who said they will not meet required mission specs, not us. EADS said it will take a year or more after IOC to develop the air refueling mission, and it will never meet the German low level TFR requirement.

If this contract price to the EU customers is "extremly low", than what do you think everyone else would have to pay?

How can it compare to the price of a C-17, which is not "lacking its tactical performance"? Most countries who fly the C-130 do not use it, tactically, like the USAF does.

EADS may have very well priced the A-400 out of the market.
 
santafejay
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:38 am

If the Japanese intend to offer the Kawasaki C-2 for export the A400M will have a tough time competing. The A400M so far is 12 tons overweight and traditionally planes tend to get heavier as they get developed. Losing 24,000lbs is going to take some very remarkable engineering and I just don't see it happening. The Japanese could have real winner on their hands if development goes well with the C-2. The two planes seem to have very similar capabities and if the Airbus/EADS group can't shed some pounds it won't matter as the A400M will be unable to lift certain equipment it was designed for.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:27 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 20):
Or the photographer turned the camera. Without a horizon reference who knows what the actual manuver is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgALWWBg3qs

and here filmed on another day (07:10):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kZCa9Asu8Y&

Axel

[Edited 2010-07-13 08:29:19]
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keesje
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:47 pm

Quoting santafejay (Reply 27):
The A400M so far is 12 tons overweight

  are you sure?

The last I heard is the french mod was concerned the first A400M would miss their specified max payload, by a few hundred kg's..

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story...siness/20100309145628&sec=business

The baseless mud throwing at the A400M is becoming a bit dull and telling more about the ones that do so then the A400M IMO.

Quoting santafejay (Reply 27):
If the Japanese intend to offer the Kawasaki C-2 for export the A400M will have a tough time competing.

I think it is hardly a tactical aircraft. Lifting off after an engine failure at V1 from a grass strip must be interresting. I took a look at the Japanase track record of exporting militairy aircraft.. maybe a revolution will take place.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
santafejay
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:11 am

Quoting keesje (Reply 29):
are you sure?

That's what I've read on Wikipedia as well as couple of other sources.

Quoting keesje (Reply 29):
Lifting off after an engine failure at V1 from a grass strip must be interresting.

Agreed, but that would be case the for any aircraft.
 
Devilfish
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RE: Airbus A400M Export Campaigns

Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:23 am

Quoting santafejay (Reply 27):
If the Japanese intend to offer the Kawasaki C-2 for export the A400M will have a tough time competing.

It may not have to if the fighter for tanker/airlifter arrangement between Brazil and France pushed through.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...fident-of-success-with-kc-390.html

Quote:
"The French government has indicated its willingness to purchase 12 KC-390s if Brazil selects the Dassault Rafale for its F-X2 fighter contest.

'We do see opportunities for the C-390 in France, period,' says Neto. 'If somebody wants to tie those things together, we'll I'm not tying anything together. You don't buy something you don't need.'


Such a deal could progress to cooperative partnership in the international market. Of course, SAAB is also open to a similar strategic alliance, and might be a less complicated choice as it has no airlifter of its own to protect, and considering previous Swedish participation in Embraer's sensor programs.
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