SandroMag
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First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:38 pm

Airbus released photo of the roll out of the first A330 MRTT for the Royal Air Force at Getafe facility

http://www.airbusmilitary.com/PressR...Royal-Air-Force-leaves-hangar.aspx

[Edited 2010-08-27 10:39:17]

[Edited 2010-08-27 10:40:22]

[Edited 2010-08-27 10:40:59]

[Edited 2010-08-27 10:41:13]
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:41 pm

So, we are looking at a September FF as a tanker (she already flew at least once)?
 
columba
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:49 am

Any plans to use the A330F as future platform for the MRTT ? Would make more sense for military use, wouldn´t it ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Devilfish
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:46 am

This deserves a photo or two.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © OlivierG


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dn280



[Edited 2010-08-29 02:52:15]
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ebj1248650
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:44 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 2):
Any plans to use the A330F as future platform for the MRTT ? Would make more sense for military use, wouldn´t it ?

It makes sense but then it depends on what the user Air Force has in mind for its tanker fleet. If the fleet is predominantly for use as a tanker, and cargo hauling is a limited secondary funtion, the A330F probably isn't a good option. The additional cost wouldn't justify basing a tanker on that airframe.
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andz
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:20 pm

If it is built as a tanker why does it have windows?
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keesje
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:24 pm

Quoting andz (Reply 5):
If it is built as a tanker why does it have windows?

Contrary to other tankers on the MRTT all fuel is stored in existing belly and wing tanks. The cargo and passenger deck remain fully operational.

With a full fuel load, the aircraft has the capacity to carry 43t of cargo. The aircraft can carry up to 285 passengers.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:25 pm

RAF tankers like the L-1011s carry lots of pax from time to time. This one will not carry main deck cargo, as it does not have a cargo door. I don't recall anyone ordering their A-330MRTTs from the basic A-330F model, only the -200 pax model, which is the same EADS is offering to the USAF as their KC-X competitor (it will have a main deck cargo door).

I don't think the A-330F has been evaluated, yet as a tanker offered airframe. Will the aero-dynamic dome for the nose gear have any aero-dynamic effects on the Boom, centerline drogue, or a receiver refueling from the centerline? I don't know, but the WARPs will not be effected.
 
Devilfish
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:10 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):

I don't think the A-330F has been evaluated, yet as a tanker offered airframe.

Didn't EADS at one time touted the A330F as their base platform for the KC-X competition?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:39 pm

The VC10s time is numbered  
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
keesje
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:43 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 8):
Didn't EADS at one time touted the A330F as their base platform for the KC-X competition?

They considered it. I guess it would give a boost in functionality. However the rivised criteria (meeting mnimum requirements / minimum costs discourages any additional value being explored (it might get more expensive) .
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:54 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 10):
Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 8):
Didn't EADS at one time touted the A330F as their base platform for the KC-X competition?

They considered it. I guess it would give a boost in functionality. However the rivised criteria (meeting mnimum requirements / minimum costs discourages any additional value being explored (it might get more expensive) .
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
I don't think the A-330F has been evaluated, yet as a tanker offered airframe. Will the aero-dynamic dome for the nose gear have any aero-dynamic effects on the Boom, centerline drogue, or a receiver refueling from the centerline? I don't know, but the WARPs will not be effected.

Keesje is correct, but so am I. The nose gear dome may have a significant effect on centerline receivers, or it may have no effect. I don't think windtunnel tests have been done on a KC-330F version. But maybe computer generated testing has been done by EADS, I just don't know? If they did computer testing (I am speculating here) and found the dome to be an aero-dynamic problem for centerline receivers, the solution might be to expensive for a reasonable EADS bid price proposal.
 
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zeke
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:45 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 8):
Didn't EADS at one time touted the A330F as their base platform for the KC-X competition?

The KC-30 tanker modifications are set of CERTIFIED STCs that can be applied to any existing or new A330, it can be applied any of the fully CERTIFIED A330-200, A330-300, or the A330-200F base airframes.

The STC covers all A330 models. The choice of base airframe has to do with customer requirements, it is not an engineering limitation.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:25 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 6):
Contrary to other tankers on the MRTT all fuel is stored in existing belly and wing tanks. The cargo and passenger deck remain fully operational.


The A330 has belly tanks? I though all the fuel was in the wings and the trim tank in the horizontal stabilizer?
 
keesje
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:45 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 13):
The A330 has belly tanks? I though all the fuel was in the wings and the trim tank in the horizontal stabilizer?
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/aircraft-pictures/A330%20MRTT%20Fuel%20Tank%20Arrangement.jpg

The center tank on the A330 can carry 41,559 liters,
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:14 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 14):
The center tank on the A330 can carry 41,559 liters,


Thanks for the picture, it proves that the A330 does not have a belly tank. The center tank is in the center wing box, not the fuselage belly?
 
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zeke
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:38 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 15):
The center tank is in the center wing box, not the fuselage belly?



Correct, not on the cargo compartment at all.
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trex8
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:01 am

if these RAF tankers are supposed to be available for the operator to use commercially when the RAF don't need them, does that mean they will have a "conventional" main deck seating, not the usual RAF rear facing seats etc?
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:06 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 17):
if these RAF tankers are supposed to be available for the operator to use commercially when the RAF don't need them, does that mean they will have a "conventional" main deck seating, not the usual RAF rear facing seats etc?


Just like the TriStars the A330 seating will be facing forward.
 
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kanban
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:50 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 17):
if these RAF tankers are supposed to be available for the operator to use commercially


I hope this doesn't imply that the RAF is going into competition with BA... although it might be one way to cover expenses.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:59 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
I hope this doesn't imply that the RAF is going into competition with BA... although it might be one way to cover expenses.

There are only 14 RAF A-330MRTTs that will be available to AirTanker. But I doubt all will be available at one time to AirTanker for charter flights. Mayby as many as 5, or so at any one time (my guess). The RAF will have some of them on training missions, or operational refueling or pax missions.

So, any threat by AirTanker to BA will be minimal at best.
 
astuteman
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:42 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 15):
Thanks for the picture, it proves that the A330 does not have a belly tank. The center tank is in the center wing box, not the fuselage belly?

It is indeed, but the fuel tanks as they exist on the passenger A330-200 (at 233 tonnes MTOW at least) are capable of being filled with fuel up to within a whisker of the plane's MTOW anyway, just as you would want on a dedicated tanker...  

The Centre tank is not fitted to A330-300's, which is why that plane's range is limited.

Rgds
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:45 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 21):
It is indeed, but the fuel tanks as they exist on the passenger A330-200 (at 233 tonnes MTOW at least) are capable of being filled with fuel up to within a whisker of the plane's MTOW anyway, just as you would want on a dedicated tanker...


The RAF can operate the TriStar tankers will above the MTOW for a commercially operated L-1011. The RAF can operate up to 540,000 lbs while the MTOW for a civilian aircraft is 514,000.

Because the RAF/AirTanker A330's will also be operated commercially, there is not way the RAF could do something similar.
 
A342
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:15 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 21):
The Centre tank is not fitted to A330-300's, which is why that plane's range is limited.

Not that there would be weight reserves to fill if you're carrying a good payload...

Quoting 474218 (Reply 22):
The RAF can operate the TriStar tankers will above the MTOW for a commercially operated L-1011. The RAF can operate up to 540,000 lbs while the MTOW for a civilian aircraft is 514,000.

What prevents the MTOW increase from being applied to a civilian aircraft? Maybe lack of certification, but in the very theoretical case that somebody would be willing to pay for that, are there any additional hurdles?
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474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:57 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 23):
What prevents the MTOW increase from being applied to a civilian aircraft? Maybe lack of certification, but in the very theoretical case that somebody would be willing to pay for that, are there any additional hurdles?



Correct, lack of certification. However, if certification was attempted it may not be achievable due to lack of safety margins required for civilian certification.
 
deltadart106
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:24 pm

Does the stripe down the side remind anyone else of the old AA stripe?
 
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kanban
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:30 pm

I'm still confused by the references to commercial use of the MRTT... I looked at the AirTanker website and there is no reference to using the planes other than as tankers (or other support) for the RAF... is what is being called commercial operations actually just hauling troops?... or is this jargon.

To me "commercial" means paying passengers.. and I can not think of any civilian a/c needing aerial refueling..

...
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:58 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 26):
To me "commercial" means paying passengers.. and I can not think of any civilian a/c needing aerial refueling..


The original plan (which may have be changed over the last eight (8) years ) was for AirTankers to buy fourteen (14) A330-200 have them converted to tankers and lease up to nine (9) of them to the RAF. The remaining five (5) would have the refueling equipment removed so they could be leased to commercial operators. All fourteen (14) airframes would be rotated between the RAF and commerical fleets so they all have to be maintained to commercial standards.
 
oly720man
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:28 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 26):
Quoting 474218 (Reply 27):

From the RAF's own website

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/futurestrategictankeraircraft.cfm

One novel aspect of the contract is the facility to lease the aircraft for civil operations. The considerable commercial demand for the A330 makes it attractive to third-parties who would operate those aircraft from the fleet thast are not immediately required for RAF use. This would deliver a major cost saving to the MoD and taxpayer and ensures that the considerable capability advantages of the A330 are affordable.

And

The aircraft will be hired by commercial airlines and quickly painted in their flagship colours for use.

If the RAF need them back during a time of crisis they will be painted back again.

It is the first time that aircraft not needed by the military will be leased out to commercial airlines.

The idea is part of new measures to save the Ministry of Defence money.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...oney/Article/200909315382779?f=rss

Though the 2nd sentence seems to make little of the need to reinstall all the IFR equipment that will have been removed, I assume. And what happens if one of these A330's is en-route to say the Caribbean or Asia? Hours can matter in crises and restoring planes to your needs, after waiting unknown hours for them to be returned to you, is not really what you want to be doing.

And, what's to stop a "sympathiser" let us say, putting one of these planes out of action when on civilian duties? Security in many places will be no-where near the same as that in military bases.
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474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:39 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 28):
Though the 2nd sentence seems to make little of the need to reinstall all the IFR equipment that will have been removed, I assume. And what happens if one of these A330's is en-route to say the Caribbean or Asia? Hours can matter in crises and restoring planes to your needs, after waiting unknown hours for them to be returned to you, is not really what you want to be doing.

And, what's to stop a "sympathiser" let us say, putting one of these planes out of action when on civilian duties? Security in many places will be no-where near the same as that in military bases.


I agree with both your statements, I worked for the RAF when the different FSTA proposals were being considered. While I not involved with the program I worked with RAF personnel were. I did my best to point out the many problems with the PFI proposal.
 
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kanban
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:49 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 28):
The aircraft will be hired by commercial airlines and quickly painted in their flagship colours for use.

If the RAF need them back during a time of crisis they will be painted back again.


there was a thread on the tech forum that implied that stripping and repainting was not an over night operation... nor is it cheap. I would think any "profits" from commercial use would be quickly eaten by this process (especially when done again following RAF use) and the costs of conversion to and from the tanker configuration...

The only plus might be that the a/c are never converted from commercial use pointing out that the RAF ordered too many. Or instead asked the US for KC767 support when needed
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:38 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
there was a thread on the tech forum that implied that stripping and repainting was not an over night operation... nor is it cheap. I would think any "profits" from commercial use would be quickly eaten by this process (especially when done again following RAF use) and the costs of conversion to and from the tanker configuration...


AirTankers believe that these cost can be re-couped. Additionally, stripping will not be required, prior to or after leasing, as multiple coats of paint can be applied before stripping becomes necessary.

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
The only plus might be that the a/c are never converted from commercial use pointing out that the RAF ordered too many. Or instead asked the US for KC767 support when needed

The RAF did not have the money to order their own tankers. These are civilian aircraft owned by AirTankers. The RAF is simply AirTankers customer.

This was not the only proposal but it is the one the UK government accepted, which may or may not have been the RAF would have chosen.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:38 pm

What happens if the A-330MRTTs are leased to an airline based in a country that later has a major political dispute with ther UK and erupts into a military conflict? Argentina and the UK had reasonable relations before 1981 and were trading with each other, then at war with one another in 1982.

Even if the tankers are returned to the RAF, how do they know the airplanes are not sabataged or bugged?
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:49 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 32):
What happens if the A-330MRTTs are leased to an airline based in a country that later has a major political dispute with ther UK and erupts into a military conflict? Argentina and the UK had reasonable relations before 1981 and were trading with each other, then at war with one another in 1982.

Even if the tankers are returned to the RAF, how do they know the airplanes are not sabataged or bugged?



They will not be returned to the RAF, they will first have to go to AirTankers for conversion to there tanker role. Presumably, and sabotage/bugs would be discover during this conversion.
 
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zeke
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:52 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 28):

I would think the reference to reinstalling the in flight refuelling equipment refers to the actual pods/hoses and military radios. Currently when tankers are flown long distances they pods are removed and stored inside the aircraft. Reinstalling them is not an onerous task. This is a requirement also in the KC-X RFP.

The radio boxes are under the floor in the avionics bay, these are slide in/out line replacement units (LRU). As these are selected via a computer, it would be a relatively simple task to have the current A330 software for a civil activities, and slide in LRUs and load a different software version for military activities.

I would expect the refuelling console to be electrically isolated and remain in place with some sort of temporary partition installed where the normal A330 rear cockpit wall would be located, effectively hiding the console. The seats for the console may remain as jump seats in the cockpit.

These aircraft I would only see be used in the UK charter market.
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kanban
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:48 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 31):
Additionally, stripping will not be required, prior to or after leasing, as multiple coats of paint can be applied before stripping becomes necessary



with a weight penalty of course....

Zeke's note that many of the refueling systems changes are in essence "plug and play" so the install time is low.. but what about retest and calibration...

Quoting 474218 (Reply 27):
All fourteen (14) airframes would be rotated between the RAF and commercial fleets so they all have to be maintained to commercial standards.



any idea of the rotation time periods (too frequent and the paint layers will build up)... and identities of the commercial operators..
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:20 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 34):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 34):
I would think the reference to reinstalling the in flight refuelling equipment refers to the actual pods/hoses and military radios. Currently when tankers are flown long distances they pods are removed and stored inside the aircraft. Reinstalling them is not an onerous task. This is a requirement also in the KC-X RFP.

The radio boxes are under the floor in the avionics bay, these are slide in/out line replacement units (LRU). As these are selected via a computer, it would be a relatively simple task to have the current A330 software for a civil activities, and slide in LRUs and load a different software version for military activities.

I would expect the refuelling console to be electrically isolated and remain in place with some sort of temporary partition installed where the normal A330 rear cockpit wall would be located, effectively hiding the console. The seats for the console may remain as jump seats in the cockpit.

These aircraft I would only see be used in the UK charter market.



Since AirTankers is responsible for maintaining the airframes even when they are in RAF operation, I seriously doubt they would want to have crews spread all over the world that would remove and install the military specific equipment before and after long flights. One of the selling points of the A330-200 was that it could fly the longest mission the RAF currently operates and still have enough internal fuel to off load to receiver aircraft.

There is no refuelling console. As with the current RAF tankers they will use CCTV to monitor refuelling operations. The controls for the hose units and the CCTV monitor are in the flight station. Provisions for a third crew member will be added. The main selling feature of the hose and dough system is its simplicity. The refuelling missions I flew on were out over the North Sea, we would fly a race track pattern and the "fast jets" would line up and take fuel as required.
 
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breiz
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:06 pm

Quoting SandroMag (Thread starter):
First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force


Sorry to be picky but I thought there was one and only Royal Air Force, the British one.
EADS used the wording "UK Royal Air Force" in its press release, which was used without bulging by FlightGlobal.
Traditions gone?
 
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zeke
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:53 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 36):
One of the selling points of the A330-200 was that it could fly the longest mission the RAF currently operates and still have enough internal fuel to off load to receiver aircraft.

That is still the case, however to meet the 9500 nm ferry range for KC-X, the Cobham wing pods are removed, this is common, and currently done with existing tankers today. The pods can also be revoved for maintenace and repair. Also other fast jet tanker like the Tornado and Superhornet remove their refueling pod when not required.

Any reconfiguration of the aircraft will be done at RAF Brize Norton.

"Deployment

The company AirTanker Services Ltd will operate and maintain the fleet of A330-200 MRTT aircraft. VT Group, the support services integrator, will be based at RAF Brize Norton.

On military operations the aircraft will be flown by Royal Air Force aircrew. When not in military service the aircraft can be leased for commercial use and operated by civilian aircrew.

It is envisaged that the fleet will be managed in three groups. A majority will be in full time military service with the RAF. Another group will be in military service during the weekdays, switching to commercial use at the weekend, and the other aircraft will be in full-time commercial use but available to the RAF in times of crisis."

from http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/a330_200/

The lease of these aircraft to civil operators maybe an academic proposal only now, as of July this year, France has been talking to the UK about leasing the excess capacity from Airtanker.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 36):
There is no refuelling console. As with the current RAF tankers they will use CCTV to monitor refuelling operations. The controls for the hose units and the CCTV monitor are in the flight station. Provisions for a third crew member will be added.

I will need to check on this, it is not the way it was explained to me, nor does it seem to be consistant with what Airtanker is saying on their website http://www.airtanker.co.uk/our-servi...e-aircraft-kc30/aircraft-features. The RAF are also saying the tanker aircraft will be a 3 crew aircraft.

Pilots are able to monitor the progress of refuelling with the tray table converted to a LCD monitor.

We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:21 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 38):


Everything you say maybe correct. I left Brize in 2002 and even though I have been in contact with several retired and current RAF flight crew members I worked with a lot could have changed since then.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 38):
I will need to check on this, it is not the way it was explained to me, nor does it seem to be consistant with what Airtanker is saying on their website http://www.airtanker.co.uk/our-servi...e-aircraft-kc30/aircraft-features. The RAF are also saying the tanker aircraft will be a 3 crew aircraft.

Pilots are able to monitor the progress of refuelling with the tray table converted to a LCD monitor.


The following site states: "The flight deck of the A330 is similar to that of the A340. The tanker transporter aircraft cockpit has a refuelling officer's station behind the pilot and co-pilot seats."

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/a330_200/
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:51 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 35):
(too frequent and the paint layers will build up)...

Actually the old paint is removed, not painted over.
 
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kanban
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:43 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 31):
Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
there was a thread on the tech forum that implied that stripping and repainting was not an over night operation... nor is it cheap. I would think any "profits" from commercial use would be quickly eaten by this process (especially when done again following RAF use) and the costs of conversion to and from the tanker configuration...


AirTankers believe that these cost can be re-couped. Additionally, stripping will not be required, prior to or after leasing, as multiple coats of paint can be applied before stripping becomes necessary.
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 40):
Actually the old paint is removed, not painted over.




Hey, we only have two different answers... although the second does not exclude repainting... is the RAF configuration bare polished metal or grey? I suspect the charter operators who may lease these planes are going to want white fuselage with their colors.. can you visualize a RAF grey plane descending Cancun without someone thinking the Federales are arriving for a drug bust.
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:16 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 40):
Actually the old paint is removed, not painted over.


Then how do you explain this, the old white paint job is clearly visible under the faded desert sand (pink) paint job?


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Photo © Alistair Bridges

 
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kanban
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:44 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 42):
Then how do you explain this, the old white paint job is clearly visible under the faded desert sand (pink) paint job?

and Air France gets clobbered for dirty a/c... or is that the new camouflage? if that was at the terminal for my tour flight to the Azores, I'd cancel even if the decals said it was a commercial carrier
 
CheetahC
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:23 pm

Camouflage for the first Gulf war.
 
474218
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:37 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 43):
and Air France gets clobbered for dirty a/c... or is that the new camouflage? if that was at the terminal for my tour flight to the Azores, I'd cancel even if the decals said it was a commercial carrier



I guess you never heard "don't judge a book by its cover".

Same aircraft nine (9) years later.

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Photo © Marc Lehmann



Same aircraft nine (9) years later.

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Photo © Stephan Kruse


Fading paint on the outside has nothing to do with the interior or the aircraft's systems.

Additionally at the time the original picture was taken with the faded paint that particle aircraft had been flying refueling mission in support of the allied forces that were driving Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait. Little time available to polish and shine when people are being shot at.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:04 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 42):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 40):
Actually the old paint is removed, not painted over.


Then how do you explain this, the old white paint job is clearly visible under the faded desert sand (pink) paint job?

That was a temporary camoflage paint job.

Paint is very heavy. On the KC-135 it weighed about 1000 lbs. So to add a second coat doubles that. You can do that, if you want to, but it reduces the max payload and range. If an RAF A-330MRTT goes back and forth to charters, then it could easily build up several coats of paint over 10-12 years. How much extra weight is that?

It does cost more to stripe paint from an airplane, and adds more time to the whole repainting process. But if stripped, there is less peeling and the new paint usually lasts longer. There are plenty of fast acting chemicals used to remove the old paint. Then all you do is repaint with primer (sometimes) and then the regular paint job.
 
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kanban
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:35 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 46):
There are plenty of fast acting chemicals used to remove the old paint.

for a while Boeing was looking at blasting with dry ice pellets (no chemicals and onc ethe dry ice evaporated you only had paint dust to clean up and dispose of... did that ever become common?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:28 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 47):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 46):
There are plenty of fast acting chemicals used to remove the old paint.

for a while Boeing was looking at blasting with dry ice pellets (no chemicals and onc ethe dry ice evaporated you only had paint dust to clean up and dispose of... did that ever become common?

I know that method has been used on some airplanes in the past. It would be more 'eviornmentially acceptable' than chemicals are, but would it damage the aircraft?

Can this method be used on airplanes with some composite parts, like the tail fin rudder and elevators on an A-330MRTT?
 
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kanban
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RE: First A330MRTT For UK Royal Air Force

Sun Sep 05, 2010 5:10 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 48):
Can this method be used on airplanes with some composite parts, like the tail fin rudder and elevators on an A-330MRTT?


as I recall yes, however there was a video of a Virgin Atlantic 747 repaint on the civil av. forum (now disappeared) that showed them sanding all the composite surfaces and not sanding all the way to the composite surface, just enough for paint adhesion...

If I can find the video I'll post a link

found it http://vimeo.com/13832328

[Edited 2010-09-05 10:14:02]

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