rolypolyman
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Fighter Pilots And Airspace

Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:56 pm

One question I've always had is how fighter pilots know to stay within certain designated airspace areas. For example say a couple of F-16s are engaged in a mock battle on the Nellis Range, and after 20 minutes of dogfighting they end up straying just 15 miles west into J92 and one of the planes accidentally plows into an LAS-RNO commercial flight. I know the pilots don't mess around with maps when conditions are VFR and things can get really heated during simulated combat action, so are they under positive radar control, and are they called up on the radio when they are going out of bounds? Who deconflicts military and commercial traffic? Does this work the same way at "alert areas", such as near Luke, Vance, and Sheppard, and in offshore warning areas where the Navy operates? Is it the ARTCC that handles this?
 
kingairta
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RE: Fighter Pilots And Airspace

Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:00 pm

There are controllers for each range. Manuevers are usually held far enough from the bounderies that an encounter with a commercial plane is highly unlikely.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Fighter Pilots And Airspace

Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:08 pm

In the MOAs, fighter pilots in dogfight training are still required to maintane 'situational awearness' for navigation, minimum altitude, and see and avoid, airplane systems monitoring and control, etc. If any pilot looses any of those, he is required to make a 'knock it off' call.

Also, dogfight engagements/training do not last for very long, maybe a few to 5 minutes max (usually), not 20 minutes. Dogfighting usually is high "G" and uses a lot of fuel.

The longest dogfight in history, Duke Cunningham (USN) in an F-4, vs. a NVAF Mig-17 (Col. Tyu?) lasted about 14 minutes.
 
BMI727
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RE: Fighter Pilots And Airspace

Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:44 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
The longest dogfight in history, Duke Cunningham (USN) in an F-4, vs. a NVAF Mig-17 (Col. Tyu?) lasted about 14 minutes.

The guy was "Colonel Tomb" or "Colonel Toon," who is generally accepted today to have been a myth. The NVAF would rotate planes among pilots and weren't too worried about confirming kills, and as a result one particular MiG-17 accrued a lot of victory stars. This was the aircraft shot down by Cunningham and Driscoll, so it was said that they defeated the pilot who never was. Furthermore, this mysterious pilot was never publicized or appeared in propaganda despite allegedly having in excess of ten kills.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
f4wso
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RE: Fighter Pilots And Airspace

Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:58 pm

In the old days lateral situational awareness was done working off a VOR/DME or TACAN radial and distance when no landmarks were visible. Upper limits can be crosschecked with the targets altitude readout. Again, in the old days when antenna elevation and distance to target were entering arguments for mental calculations, an occaisional 727 overflying the MOA by several thousand feet could be an enticing blip on the scope. That is until the upper limit of the MOA is reached and the blip is still well out of range.

As stated in an earlier post, it is suicide to get into a long engagement. 720 degrees of turn is an eternity.

Most boundary calls I heard at RED FLAG were not from engagements. They were generated by lost souls that planned their route at 420 to 480 kts and flew it at 550 to 600.

Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA
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kc135topboom
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RE: Fighter Pilots And Airspace

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:23 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
The longest dogfight in history, Duke Cunningham (USN) in an F-4, vs. a NVAF Mig-17 (Col. Tyu?) lasted about 14 minutes.

The guy was "Colonel Tomb" or "Colonel Toon," who is generally accepted today to have been a myth.

Thanks, I knew it was something like that.
 
rolypolyman
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RE: Fighter Pilots And Airspace

Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:42 pm

Quoting f4wso (Reply 4):
an occaisional 727 overflying the MOA by several thousand feet could be an enticing blip on the scope

Good grief, I had no idea... I was a pax on those Key Air flights to TNX. I guess ignorance is bliss... I always figured the range was dead when we were given direct routings.
 
f4wso
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RE: Fighter Pilots And Airspace

Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:07 am

Quoting rolypolyman (Reply 6):
Good grief, I had no idea... I was a pax on those Key Air flights to TNX. I guess ignorance is bliss... I always figured the range was dead when we were given direct routings.

Fortunately, it was a rare event and I don't know of any instance where the interceptor pressed within ten miles of a "non-player". i suspect that most of the flights you were on were during times when the ranges were cold or your flight wouldn't have been cleared direct.
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