kaitak
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Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:12 pm

Merde! Zut alors! Moulin Rouge, Folies Bergeres and other naughty French words!

The British media has reported this widely today. Lord Nelson would be spinning in his grave! The plan is that the second British carrier would be shared with France and it is rumoured that Sarkozy and Cameron will announce this at a summit in November. This move, if it were to go ahead, would have massive historical significance; Britain and France have a long history of sea battles and - barring fisticuffs between French and British ratings on board - this would mark a huge new step forward in Anglo French military co-operation.

It is also rumoured strongly, if not already confirmed, that the F-35s which would have operated from the new carriers are likely to be cancelled, so this would suggest that either French Rafales or RAF/RN Harriers would operate from the new vessel.

How the day to day operation of the vessel would be managed (British captain? French chief of flight operations? They might try and put the British in charge of catering, but I fear that this would probably put a permanent end to entente cordiale!)

And what about the name? The British had chosen Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales for their vessel, but these would probably not be acceptable to the French? How about HMS Trafalgar? May HMS Nelson? Or perhaps even HMS Mers El Kebir*?

I just can't see this working ... but I guess stranger things have happened!

(*This was the "battle" in which Churchill, fearing that the French fleet would fall into German hands - following the capitulation by the Vichy government, ordered that the French fleet in Algeria be scuttled.)

I can only leave the final word on the subject to Mr. Blackadder:

"Doesn't anyone know? We hate the French! We fight wars against
them! Did all those men die in vain on the field at Agincourt?
Was the man who burned Joan of Arc simply wasting good matches?"
 
photopilot
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:24 am

I don't see a problem with this. The English provide the fighting sailors and pilots, the French provide the Sous-Chef. 
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:40 am

The original plan was to have a common aircraft carrier design to share and lower the development and construction costs.

There isn't enough money for that either now, so I suppose sharing a carrier wouldn't be a bad idea. The two countries would have to share a common military and political strategy for its use, but then they have done so for a while now, except for Irak, although they eventually came back on the same line.

The two navies would have to learn how to work together, but I guess it could work, and I'd love the irony that even though the UK is not in the EU, they would be the first two European nations to engage in such a join military venture, while the rest of the EU nations can't seem to be able to undertake the slightest amount of consolidation and cooperation between their armies.

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
so this would suggest that either French Rafales or RAF/RN Harriers would operate from the new vessel.

Why not both? How cool would that be...

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
"Doesn't anyone know? We hate the French!"

Well, likewise, but when the money runs out, you have to make sacrifices.  
Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
How about HMS Trafalgar? May HMS Nelson? Or perhaps even HMS Mers El Kebir*?

Dubious cynicism noted, but you'd have to drop the HMS thingy or replace it with Their Majesties, as I'm sure Sarkozy would love the title.
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kl671
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:06 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 1):
and I'd love the irony that even though the UK is not in the EU

Irony is good, however the UK has been a member state of the EU since 1973.

http://europa.eu/about-eu/27-member-...-states/unitedkingdom/index_en.htm
 
johns624
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:10 am

I don't think that they would actually be sharing it at the same time. All ships require maintenance and refits. Between the two countries, they have 3 carriers. The second British carrier would be pulled out of mothballs whenever one of the two active carriers is in drydock.
 
baroque
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:25 am

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
I can only leave the final word on the subject to Mr. Blackadder:

"Doesn't anyone know? We hate the French! We fight wars against
them! Did all those men die in vain on the field at Agincourt?
Was the man who burned Joan of Arc simply wasting good matches?"

The funny thing is there would probably be less fuss if it was shared with Germany. Time as our beloved Ms Gillard would say to "Move forward"!

Wonder if the F-35 will survive.
 
Ken777
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:33 am

What I cannot understand is how this can be effective when the two countries are not in agreement.

The best that can be said is that it is a major step in an "EU Defense" Organization.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:54 am

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
The British media has reported this widely today. Lord Nelson would be spinning in his grave! The plan is that the second British carrier would be shared with France and it is rumoured that Sarkozy and Cameron will announce this at a summit in November

Ah, the script for the new Monty Python movie!!! Excellent!

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oldeuropean
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:44 am

Another step to joint European military forces.

It's about time! All member states would save billions.

A former step was done in 1987 with the Franco-German Brigade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade

And then the Eurocorps.
http://www.eurocorps.org/home_page/home.php?lang_default=ENG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps

Axel

[Edited 2010-09-01 00:56:54]

[Edited 2010-09-01 01:11:53]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
baroque
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:18 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
Another step to joint European military forces.

It's about time! All member states would save billions.

The M I complex will be around to see you tonight I expect. Tell them to pay their taxes and mend the holes in the assembled budgets!!!   
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:41 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):
nd I'd love the irony that even though the UK is not in the EU,

Britain is an EU member.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
oldeuropean
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:46 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 9):
The M I complex will be around to see you tonight I expect. Tell them to pay their taxes and mend the holes in the assembled budgets!!!

Yep, some would have to make sacrifices. 


Another interesting read. About reflections of the Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini on this issue.
http://www.eurodialogue.org/energy-s...Army-Of-Tomorrow-A-New-Perspective

[Edited 2010-09-01 02:47:08]

[Edited 2010-09-01 02:49:24]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
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par13del
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:31 am

All this to preseve the jobs that building these carriers will provide to the French and UK economy.

There are other ways to build the carriers rather than cripple your military, there are reasons why nations have not done such before, but putting that aside, Russia wants to buy French amphibs, I'm sure there are customers who would be willing to purchase these ships once built, why not just sell them?

If you cannot afford operate a carrier why build one for yourself?
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:54 am

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
And what about the name? The British had chosen Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales for their vessel, but these would probably not be acceptable to the French? How about HMS Trafalgar? May HMS Nelson? Or perhaps even HMS Mers El Kebir*?

What about "Entente Cordiale"? 
Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
I just can't see this working ... but I guess stranger things have happened!

There are a lot of things that people could not see working, and yet they did. Sharing an aircraft carrier with an old and respectable "enemy" is not more complicated than building Europe with Germany 10 years after the end of WWII, I guess.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):
replace it with Their Majesties, as I'm sure Sarkozy would love the title.


  
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connies4ever
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:33 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 13):
Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
And what about the name? The British had chosen Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales for their vessel, but these would probably not be acceptable to the French? How about HMS Trafalgar? May HMS Nelson? Or perhaps even HMS Mers El Kebir*?

What about "Entente Cordiale"?

Concorde.

Most of the EU states are taking an axe to their defense budgets -- the Americans are next in line, just wait for it. Not sure, as Baroque indicated, that the F-35 will survive this. Perhaps a mix of Harriers and Rafales. To accomodate the Rafales a lot of engineering work would have to be undertaken at considerable cost.

Perhaps it could work, but it would require a lot of open-mindedness and flexibility.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:45 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 14):
To accomodate the Rafales a lot of engineering work would have to be undertaken at considerable cost.

The british and the French carriers use basically the same blueprints. The French chose the option to have catapults and arrester gear added for their Rafales, while the British decided to use a skijump ramp for the F-35 in the same style as they used for their Harriers on their older aircraft carriers, but with the option to possibly convert the ship at a later stage to conventional carrier aircraft. All the British need to do is to copy the French design.

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
There are other ways to build the carriers rather than cripple your military, there are reasons why nations have not done such before, but putting that aside, Russia wants to buy French amphibs, I'm sure there are customers who would be willing to purchase these ships once built, why not just sell them?

Defnce items are not subject to normal commercial considerations. You want to make sure that you keep the best stuff for yourself and don´t arm a potential future enemy with the same or better equipment than you have yourself. When the Russians (and Soviets) sold more sophisticated equipment (e.g. at higher sophistication than an AK-47 or RPG-7) , they made sure that it was only versions of reduced capability, not the same version issued to their own troops.

Jan
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Stealthz
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:30 pm

Whilst I understand the issues that led to Trafalgar, Waterloo or even Mers El Kebir are well behind us what would be the protocol if the UK(if indeed it remained united) were to find itself toe to toe with her gallic neighbour across the channel?

Would there be an arrangement to have a ceasefire or truce period so the otherside could take their turn with the carrier?
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fca767
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:39 pm

I Read an article and it said, instead of 4 vessals, just 2, the french patrol at one time and the uk another time
 
ferengi80
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:27 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 1):
I don't see a problem with this

If my father were still alive, he would be gobsmacked by this! He was not a big lover of the French, and said that the only reason the Channel Tunnel was built was so that if there was another War, the French could be in London that much quicker with their hands up! I can just imagine his quotes regarding this....

As for the name... It has got to be HMS something or other. Anything else would cause a diplomatic incident!
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wolbo
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:42 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
Another step to joint European military forces.

It's about time! All member states would save billions.

A former step was done in 1987 with the Franco-German Brigade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-...igade

There's also a German/Netherlands Corps: 1GNC

http://www.1gnc.org
 
Venus6971
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:25 pm

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
And what about the name? The British had chosen Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales for their vessel, but these would probably not be acceptable to the French? How about HMS Trafalgar? May HMS Nelson? Or perhaps even HMS Mers El Kebir*?

How about the HMS Duke of Normandy since that was once one of the titles that past English Norman Kings had.
I read that the RN is thinking about used F-18's until the F-35 comes around.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
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par13del
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:38 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
Defnce items are not subject to normal commercial considerations. You want to make sure that you keep the best stuff for yourself and don´t arm a potential future enemy with the same or better equipment than you have yourself.

Quite true, but the ships have just started construction, no electronics, electrical or power plants have yet been installed, unless you believe that the design itself has new "methods / ideas" worthy of national protection, in which case, by sharing such with another nation friendly or not does open the door to much more "loose lips" which can "sink ships".  
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 8):
Another step to joint European military forces.

Is this really the case or an after thought created by the current economic situation?
A copuple years ago a EU quick reaction force was proposed where member nations would put up troops and materials under a joint command, have not kept up but I believe it was done, kindly correct me if I'm wrong.

The UK initiated its two carrier program a few years ago, there was no joint anywhere, France initiated the joint due to the major issues they have had with their nuclear powered carrier, even then there was only joint construction no joint operations. Fast forward to the current economic crisis, the UK is looking to cut defense spending, if some brilliant Navy person could team up with a private contractor to show that one carrier could be made to work they would jump on that immediately.
So far operational requirements still indicate that a minimum of two carriers is the best option for training, deployment, operations etc. but running two carriers is certainely more expensive than one, so what to do? The US Navy ship building program for the next few years is in shambles, how about following the tanker program and offer to build US Navy ship's in my opinion the building of the ships and its economic impact is the issue, not how they will be operated.

I'm not saying that it cannot work, I question whether it's worth it to essentially get a minimum at best carrier force, say one and a half ship. If they are proposing merging the French and UK Navies from firgates all the way up to the carriers then fine, true EU integration, how about getting other countries on board especially the smaller Baltic nations who have good "brown water" capabilities. If only the carriers are megred, the crew set will be speciliazed which could create additional issues if for example the joint carrier is used for training, not insurmountable but do you need these additional issues to be carrier capable?
The UK did pretty well with smaller carriers, perhaps going back to what they perfected?
 
Venus6971
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:48 pm

I don't know why a NATO owned CV could not work. With 2 old oil burners sitting in US ports Kitty Hawk and the JFK NATO could project power with true cost sharing. The question is are those 2 ships have any useful life in them to be modernized and equipped. NATO owned E-3's and C-17's seem to be working well.
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petertenthije
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:03 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 22):
The question is are those 2 ships have any useful life in them to be modernized and equipped.

The main problem with those two ships, and dare I say it a lot of US ships, is that they require a lot of manpower. A single US carrier, nuke or conventional, requires almost as much personnel as half the entire Dutch navy including the marine corps!

According to Wikipedia the USS Kitty Hawk CV-63 has a crew of 4.582 men and women. According to the site of the Dutch navy and marine corps they employ roughy 10.500 men and women. That's 6.640 with the navy, 2.840 with the marines and the rest are civilians.

Even if you combine all European naval forces you'd be hard pressed to find enough men and women to run those two ships along with their support vessels, and still maintain their current obligations.
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par13del
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:05 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 22):
I don't know why a NATO owned CV could not work

It could, except so far they are only talking about the UK and France.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 22):
With 2 old oil burners sitting in US ports Kitty Hawk and the JFK NATO could project power with true cost sharing.

Metal has already been cut, these ships are being built, so if NATO is going to get any carriers it will have to be these two or 3 however many they finally settle on building.
 
Starbuk7
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:35 pm

 
Kiwirob
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:44 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 14):
To accomodate the Rafales a lot of engineering work would have to be undertaken at considerable cost.

Not a problem the CVF was designed wih conversion to cats from the get go, also the French version the PA2 was going to use cats, so I'm pretty sure the Rafale would operate on CVF without a problem.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 22):
With 2 old oil burners sitting in US ports Kitty Hawk and the JFK NATO could project power with true cost sharing. The question is are those 2 ships have any useful life in them to be modernized and equipped. NATO owned E-3's and C-17's seem to be working well.

Those two ships are completely shagged, there is bugger all useful life left in them plus they have massive crews, approx 3200 people, CVF is designed to operate with a crew of 600, there is no way Europe would want to operate such manpower intensive vessels. I'm surprised even the latest US carriers still have such large crews, the new Ford class will have a crew of 4700.

Somehow this story appears too daft to be true, I just can't see the RN wanting to share these ships with the French.

What we really need is Astuteman to pop in and give us the real deal.
 
sw733
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:55 pm

I heard that the default speed of the ship would be "Retreat"

  
 
Venus6971
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:23 pm

Not sure how a CV is crewed or any USN ship is staffed since I was a USAF guy but I am guessing triple reduncency plus alot of crew are used as support personnel to the air wing on board. Any CV guys here to explain why such large crews? I guess to run a city you need a city's population. By contrast the newest and largest container vessels or tankers have less than 30 crewman.
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gatorfan
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:26 pm

Admiral Lord Nelson is rolling over in his grave.
 
GST
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:12 pm

I really hope this is true, the UK and France are very closely aligned militarily and even politically (though few care to admit it unfortunately. This would be a neat progression of that).

Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
so this would suggest that either French Rafales or RAF/RN Harriers would operate from the new vessel.

Why not both? How cool would that be...

How about a mixed wing of French Rafales & Hawkeyes, with UK F35, Lynx and/or Merlins? I reckon F35 and Rafales would be nicely complementary in capabilities, and having the ability to put radarships aboard that arent helicopter bound can only be good.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):

Dubious cynicism noted, but you'd have to drop the HMS thingy or replace it with Their Majesties, as I'm sure Sarkozy would love the title.

You could possibly have some sort of cheesy acronym that satisfies both, such as French Republic and Her Majesties Ship, FRHMS?

As for the name, there are a few battles and movements at sea that France and the UK have been shoulder to shoulder in, how about FRHMS Normandy? Can anyone recall more? I know there are more but i cant remember the names and locations.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):
nd I'd love the irony that even though the UK is not in the EU,

Britain is an EU member.

I think the point may have been that the UK might not be in the EU for much longer if certain corners of our political gaggle are to be listened to.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 14):
To accomodate the Rafales a lot of engineering work would have to be undertaken at considerable cost.

As has been pointed out, the carriers were built to enable adding cats later at relatively low cost, so you could possibly add a waist cat or two, plus the ski jump to satisfy all aircraft's needs. I wonder if a magnetic cat is to be used, since it don't require the enormous piston, if it could be curved into the ski jump to maximise flexibility?

Quoting stealthz (Reply 16):


Would there be an arrangement to have a ceasefire or truce period so the other side could take their turn with the carrier?

Nah, you just have one line of French scuttling charges on one side of the ship, and a line of UK charges on the other.

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 25):
Apparently the UK is not too happy about it.

correction, the Daily Mail is not happy about it, and it isn't happy about very much besides bigotry and xenophobia.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 27):
I heard that the default speed of the ship would be "Retreat"

France has won the majority of the major military engagements that it has been involved in over the last 1000 years, so I still treat them with a healthy respect. All ahead flank!
 
photopilot
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:01 pm

Quoting kl671 (Reply 3):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 1):
and I'd love the irony that even though the UK is not in the EU

How ODD that I can be "quoted" as saying something in Reply 1 THAT I NEVER SAID AND ISN'T WRITTEN.

Tell me, do you often go around and fake quotes for whatever reason?
 
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par13del
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:05 pm

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 28):
Not sure how a CV is crewed or any USN ship is staffed since I was a USAF guy but I am guessing triple reduncency plus alot of crew are used as support personnel to the air wing on board.

US Navy carriers embark in excess of 80 combat a/c, takes a lot of support personnel, most anything that can go wrong with the a/c can be fixed on board.
In addition they are supposed to be able to function and fight 24/7 with a few breaks, and as a combat vessel, you need damage support personnel, automation only goes so far.
 
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breiz
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:14 pm

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
The plan is that the second British carrier would be shared with France

I do not see this as a problem.
The British can use the left side of the flight deck while the French use the right side.
Likewise, the ship may be named "HMS Nelson" on one side and "Surcouf" on the other  
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:33 am

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
And what about the name?
Quoting GST (Reply 30):
You could possibly have some sort of cheesy acronym that satisfies both, such as French Republic and Her Majesties Ship, FRHMS?

That particular name would be unfortunate given that Britain occupied large tracts of France for the best part of 500 years given the Plantagenet claim to the French throne. I suppose it would irritate the French just like naming it Battle of Hastings or 1066 would irritate the Brits.

How about D'Artagnan ??? one of the 4 musketeers loyal to France - but still helped the French queen have a lil slap and tickle on the side with the Duke of Buckingham - before he slapped and tickled her himself.


More Importantly

1) What happens when an international situation causes a rift between France and Britain like the Iraq invasion did? Would this carrier be deployed for 8 months of the British rotation and have to withdraw for the 4 months when the French vehemently oppose?

2) Technically is a rafale optimised top compatible with the F-35B? i think so - since the B version is VTOL it could land V and anyway its designed to be ski jump compatible. That said i dont see why the rafale can't be made ski jump compatible.

Basically a catapult provides additional thrust and a ski jump additional lift ....... the rafale could probably do it with a slightly reduced MTOW or more powerful engines - like the ones rumoured to be under development for the UAE.

3) IMO given that this kind of sharing basically gives France and Britain a veto over the others foreign policy i suspect this is part of a much larger re-think of Britain's place in the world - and presumably this will be reflected in the SSBN debate as well. as well as bringing Britain's big power nostalgia in line with modern realities.

4) Historically the last exclusively Anglo-French joint operation was the 1956 invasion of Egypt - and what a foreign policy disaster it turned out to be. Cant bode well for this.
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GST
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:51 am

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 34):
I suppose it would irritate the French just like naming it Battle of Hastings or 1066 would irritate the Brits.

Well the Normans weren't exactly French in the strictest sense, being at that time a separate kingdom, so Hastings would be irrelevant in my eye.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 34):
D'Artagnan

Would certainly be entertaining!

But it need not be named after a common battle, how about a trait common to both nations? Damned Stubborn?

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 34):

2) Technically is a rafale optimised top compatible with the F-35B? i think so - since the B version is VTOL it could land V and anyway its designed to be ski jump compatible. That said i dont see why the rafale can't be made ski jump compatible.

To take off vertically on every sortie significantly reduces range and useful payload, hence utilisation of the ski jump. If a cat can go on the ramp and another (or more?) on the waist this would probably allow both aircraft families to perform optimally.

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 34):
IMO given that this kind of sharing basically gives France and Britain a veto over the others foreign policy

Here will likely be the crux of any sharing arrangement, and one I hope that could be overcome, but at this time early in the day i'm lacking ideas.
 
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zeke
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:18 am

France is also in discussions with Airtanker (the new tanker provider to the RAF) to lease excess capacity.
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bikerthai
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:07 pm

Quoting GST (Reply 35):
But it need not be named after a common battle

There are a several French/English combined naval engagements during the Crimean war. Nothing spectacular, but things to consider.

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bikerthai
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:15 pm

Or "Ouistreham" the town on Sword Beach, Normandy where the French Commandos landed with the British contingent.

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328JET
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:56 pm

Wow, if this would come true, it could really mean the first step to a single european navy.

This would make perfect sense.

And IF it will happen, i could see the "Charles des Gaules", the "Queen Elizabeth" and the 1 spanish and 2 italian carriers join this "joint venture" as well.

A european carrier group consisting of one nuclear powered carrier and 5 conventional ones plus several helicopter carriers.


But canceling the JSF?

Some eurofighters probably along the rafales insstad of ?
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:35 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 39):
Some eurofighters probably along the rafales insstad of ?

What would the costs (both financial and aircraft performance) be to navalize the Eurofighter? After all, we're talking about having to beef up the structure to take the stress of an arrested landing as well as changing the wing design to accommodate wing folding for storage on the flight deck and in the hangar deck. The F-35 and Rafale are already built with all of this in mind and, as such, are cheaper acquisitions (coming off the shelf, so to speak). While the basic design work for the Eurofighter is already there, you'd still have to go to the drawing board to navalize it.
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328JET
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:55 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 40):
What would the costs (both financial and aircraft performance) be to navalize the Eurofighter?

A good point, but a carrier based version is under consideration.

India seems to show interest:


http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories419.htm
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:10 am

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 40):

What would the costs (both financial and aircraft performance) be to navalize the Eurofighter?

1) The real costs may not be as much as the political costs

2) First political cost - you piss off the US by saying no to the F-35

3) Second political cost - you piss off the French by navalising a prime competitor and removing it from a unique niche - especially a competitor that has repeatedly thrashed the Rafale in exports. You can't tell the French to share carriers with you when that very action leads to an undermining of their flagship product

Quoting GST (Reply 35):
how about a trait common to both nations? Damned Stubborn?

Stiff upper lip? loose lower lip?

or perhaps Bretagne - for the Brits its Britain spelt the French way and for the French its the province of Brittany.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 37):
engagements during the Crimean war

given how much separates Britain from France - intellectually, doctrinally, operationally I think this proposal is going down the same slippery slope as the Charge of the Light Brigade.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 41):
India seems to show interest:

i wouldn't take it seriously - so far India's showing far too much "interest" in everything - with far too little to show as concrete backup to such interest. They already have the Harrier, MiG-29K in service, The Tejas Naval under development (its obviously a retard cuz it never actually seems to develop even after 20 years) plus "interest in the F-35 and JAS-39

I think the navalisation is being dangled as a "what if" to support their respective positions in the MRCA competition.
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windy95
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:09 pm

Quote:
The defense ministers of France and the U.K. said they’ll consider pooling equipment such as Airbus SAS A400M transport planes to cut costs, though they ruled out sharing aircraft carriers.

“Tankers, A400s, naval units, but just to be clear not aircraft carriers, are areas where we can work toward pooling,” French Defense Minister Herve Morin said at a joint news conference in Paris today after a meeting with his British counterpart, Liam Fox.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...including-a400m-to-save-costs.html
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:18 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 25):
Apparently the UK is not too happy about it.

The Daily Mail represents the xenophobic bigoted section of the UK. The fear that Euro as the want to keep the Queen's image on their money!

Quoting francoflier (Reply 2):
The original plan was to have a common aircraft carrier design to share and lower the development and construction costs

Wasn't the original idea that France would build 2 carriers from the same design so that the overall cost of the individual Queen Elizabeth class would be reduced. But the French decided not to build so the UK costs went up and cast doubt on their future.

I had read an article in Combat Aircraft a few months back by an RAF captain asking why not keep the boats but dump the F-35. Apparently the ships were expected to be £5Bn punds while the planes would add £15Bn to the cost. He advocated going for F-18s or Rafales on the Queen Elizabeth class.

Quoting GST (Reply 35):
Well the Normans weren't exactly French in the strictest sense, being at that time a separate kingdom, so Hastings would be irrelevant in my eye.

The Normans were 2 generation Viking invaders who annexed that territory. I think William's grandfather did the annexation while his papa exhorted tributes from much of Northern France.

Quoting 328JET (Reply 41):
India seems to show interest:

Another attempt to get better prices from Russia?
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:06 pm

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 44):
Apparently the ships were expected to be £5Bn punds while the planes would add £15Bn to the cost. He advocated going for F-18s or Rafales on the Queen Elizabeth class.

Probably because that would have meant designing the Queen Elizabeths from the go to actually include CATOBAR equipment (not just to have a provision for it) and that would have increased building costs. That would have also included a crash program (no pun intended) on getting Naval Air Arm aviators reacquainted with how to perform an arrested landing, getting the flight deck crews reacquainted with CATOBAR operations, etc.
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flagon
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:27 pm

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
It is also rumoured strongly, if not already confirmed, that the F-35s which would have operated from the new carriers are likely to be cancelled

I just cannot believe that, given the involvement of the british industry in the F35 I find that very hard to believe, but we will see.
After all when it is about cost savings, I found that the UK are sometimes a bit rude with their own industry...
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Shmertspionem
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:34 pm

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 44):
But the French decided not to build so the UK costs went up and cast doubt on their future.

I think that had a lot to do with the Nuclear propulsion issue - The Brits couldn't afford nuke power and the French thought conventional power was a step backward given the widely acknowledged superiority of French reactor design


Also It seems that this proposal is dead - Defence Minister Liam Fox denied the proposal and called it "unrealistic"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11176489
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Lumberton
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:37 pm

No carriers, but they might share A400Ms. Whether or not this "pooling" would result in a reduced buy is not discussed here.
http://www.dodbuzz.com/2010/09/03/the-english-channel-air-force/

Quote:
Publicly and officially their defense ministers repudiated that idea today but they did raise the prospect of sharing the fleet of the hugely over-budget but technologically impressive A400M air transport, as well as helicopters and some “naval units.”

“Tankers, A400s, naval units, but just to be clear not aircraft carriers, are areas where we can work toward pooling,” French Defense Minister Herve Morin said after a meeting with British counterpart Liam Fox. Several news agencies reported Morin’s and Fox’s remarks earlier today.

An F-35 cancellation? Most likely they'll buy another model.

Quote:
The comments by Morin and Fox appear to leave on the table the idea that Britain might borrow F/A-18s from the United States for its carrier fleet. Britain has also reportedly considered canceling its F-35B STOVL buy for the carriers in favor of longer-range F-35Cs. this would require substantial additions to the carrier fleet, changes that have been designed to. But they would presumably increase the ships’ costs.
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connies4ever
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RE: Britain And France To Share Aircraft Carrier?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:54 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
The british and the French carriers use basically the same blueprints. The French chose the option to have catapults and arrester gear added for their Rafales, while the British decided to use a skijump ramp for the F-35 in the same style as they used for their Harriers on their older aircraft carriers, but with the option to possibly convert the ship at a later stage to conventional carrier aircraft. All the British need to do is to copy the French design.


In the large strokes I agree. However, below deck I believe there are some significant differences w.r.t. quartering, storage, and so forth. Perhaps due to the presence of the cats, whether steam or EMAL (I think the latter but may be incorrect).

Also, the French will need a HUGE bakery for baguette et croissant. If this compromises crew comfort and/or safety, so be it. Easier for the Brits to produce fried bread.
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