connies4ever
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Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Mon Sep 06, 2010 1:33 pm

Hopefully this is the correct forum for this thread. I'll move it if people suggest Non-Av.

Anyhoo, link goes to the Guardian article about two people vying to become the first supersonic skydivers, jumping from about 120,000 ft. One, Fournier (French) I knew about as he has been trying for some time to launch from North Battleford, Saskatchewan, unsuccessfully so far due to a host of problems. He's getting up in years, too. The other, Baumgartner (Austrian) I didn't know about. But, he has Red Bull behind him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...gartner-michel-fournier-supersonic

I wish both gentlemen well, but, as Rummie once said, there are some unknown unknowns here.
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474218
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Mon Sep 06, 2010 2:40 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Thread starter):
wish both gentlemen well, but, as Rummie once said, there are some unknown unknowns here.


Been done before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excelsior
 
connies4ever
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Mon Sep 06, 2010 9:05 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
Been done before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Excelsior

Kittinger is part of the Red Bull team (mentioned in the article).

a) Kittinger didn't get as high as these dudes plan to go;
b) Kittinger didn't go supersonic, which these guys plan on.

What happens at the sonic boundary vis-a-vis shock interaction with the suit is really an unknown unknown.
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HaveBlue
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:28 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
b) Kittinger didn't go supersonic, which these guys plan on.

Kittinger certainly did go supersonic, a record for which he is famous for (the only human to do it without a vehicle). The speed of sound is not 740mph at that altitude and temperature...

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
a) Kittinger didn't get as high as these dudes plan to go;

And while his 102,000'+ jump may not be quite as high as the planned 120,000' jump... I'm not sure there's anymore challenges or difficulties between those 2 altitudes. I'd wager its about the same.



[Edited 2010-09-06 17:36:36]
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connies4ever
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:21 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 3):
Kittinger certainly did go supersonic, a record for which he is famous for (the only human to do it without a vehicle). The speed of sound is not 740mph at that altitude and temperature...

I realise Mach 1 is not the same at that altitude as at sea level, or even in the tropopause.
FWIW, Wikipedia does not mention him going supersonic, nor any of the citations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Kittinger

Nor does this one, which might be considered semi-official. It does note "approaching the speed of sound" ...

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/kittinger/DI29.htm
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zanl188
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:29 pm

Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 3):
And while his 102,000'+ jump may not be quite as high as the planned 120,000' jump... I'm not sure there's anymore challenges or difficulties between those 2 altitudes. I'd wager its about the same.

If there's no significant difference between 102Kft & 120Kft I suspect someone would have done it a long time ago....

Seems to me the difficulty is not so much the jump (although that remains to be seen) but getting to altitude in the first place. Are scientific/experimental balloons getting to 120Kft? and with what kind of payload weights?
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connies4ever
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:11 pm

Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 5):
Seems to me the difficulty is not so much the jump (although that remains to be seen) but getting to altitude in the first place. Are scientific/experimental balloons getting to 120Kft? and with what kind of payload weights?

Yes they do, and generally are intended to study upper atmospheric winds and to do some relatively persistent studies of the mesosphere and/or ionosphere.

I agree getting the jumper up to altitude is probably the big issue, since a suit problem on the way up would quite possibly be fatal. Well, it would on the way down as well, depending on where it happened:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Piantanida   
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HaveBlue
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:57 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 2):
a) Kittinger didn't get as high as these dudes plan to go;
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 4):
I realise Mach 1 is not the same at that altitude as at sea level, or even in the tropopause.
FWIW, Wikipedia does not mention him going supersonic, nor any of the citations:

I had got this from Balloonlife.com, and had heard long, long ago that Kittinger had went supersonic. I dismissed Wiki because though I use it a lot and love it, it's not the Bible.

http://www.balloonlife.com/publications/balloon_life/9510/balloonm.htm

"Kittinger followed this flight with two more. Excelsior II launched on December 11, 1959 and rose to a height of 74,700 before Kittinger left the gondola. His final flight in this series, Excelsior III, took place on August 16, 1960. Kittinger piloted his craft to an altitude of 102,800 feet before exiting the open gondola. On the descent Kittinger became the first man to exceed the Speed of Sound without an aircraft or space vehicle. It is still the highest parachute jump ever. The freefall lasted four minutes and thirty-six seconds, a record."

But alas you were correct, so my apologies. Here is an excellent article that has many quotes about Kit going supersonic, and yet explains why this is not true, and why even though it's not true why it is widely reported as having happened.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...personic&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


Friend, Tim. "Captain's jump put NASA on the map." USA Today. 12 February 1999. "Kittinger fell for four minutes before his main chute opened. In the vacuum of the upper stratosphere, his body accelerated to 714 mph, breaking the sound barrier."

Hamilton, Tom. "Balloonmeister - Joe Kittinger." Balloon Life. October 1995: 41. "On the descent Kittinger became the first man to exceed the Speed of Sound without an aircraft or space vehicle."
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rlwynn
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:11 pm

He may have exceeded the speed of sound in ground speed. But I do not see how it would be possible to break the sound barrier without thrust.
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connies4ever
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:37 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 8):
He may have exceeded the speed of sound in ground speed. But I do not see how it would be possible to break the sound barrier without thrust.

Gravity, the Big G, provides all the thrust you need in this situation.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Skydiving From The Edge Of Space

Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:02 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 8):
He may have exceeded the speed of sound in ground speed. But I do not see how it would be possible to break the sound barrier without thrust.

He didn´t need thrust. He had gravity to provide the necessary force.

Jan
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