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kc135topboom
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IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:31 pm

IAI has converted a B-767-200ER to the (KC) B-767MMTT for the Columbian Air Force. It has now begun flight testing, including refueling from the WARPs. This B-767MMTT does not have a Boom.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ests-colombias-new-767-tanker.html

This is a multi-mission aircraft, with the tanker, cargo, pax, and possibly VIP missions, much like the Canadian Forces A-310MRTT.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:06 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ests-colombias-new-767-tanker.html

" IAI has previously offered a 767-based tanker to the Polish air force in collaboration with local firm Bumar."

So is the Polish AF tanker back on, or about to be reordered?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:30 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ests-colombias-new-767-tanker.html

" IAI has previously offered a 767-based tanker to the Polish air force in collaboration with local firm Bumar."

So is the Polish AF tanker back on, or about to be reordered?

I am amazed to find out that the 767 can fly, refuel aircraft, and carry cargo. I thought only the EADS tanker could do that. Amazing!  
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keesje
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:43 pm

It would have been interresting if they had offered to overhaul, mildly upgrade and convert a 767-300ER fleet of 100 into this configuration. Together with e.g. Pemco and Delta TechOps. For say 40% of the OEMs ask.

I guess they could have earned millions for just getting lost  
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Lumberton
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:10 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 3):
It would have been interresting if they had offered to overhaul, mildly upgrade and convert a 767-300ER fleet of 100

Well, maybe somewhere in the Negev, there's something similar occurring on a slightly smaller scale?  
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:45 pm

Quoting keesje (Reply 3):
It would have been interresting if they had offered to overhaul, mildly upgrade and convert a 767-300ER fleet of 100 into this configuration. Together with e.g. Pemco and Delta TechOps. For say 40% of the OEMs ask.

Well, isn't that essentially what Airbus offered (in a shorter fuselarge) with the A-310MRTT/KC-310? Airbus sold how many of them?
 
keesje
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:00 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 5):
Well, isn't that essentially what Airbus offered (in a shorter fuselarge) with the A-310MRTT/KC-310? Airbus sold how many of them?

6 Sofar. It is totally outsold by new KC767s (8).
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ThePointblank
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:04 am

Quoting keesje (Reply 6):
6 Sofar. It is totally outsold by new KC767s (8).

And all of them were conversions of used aircraft vs brand new KC767's.
 
328JET
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:41 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
I am amazed to find out that the 767 can fly, refuel aircraft, and carry cargo. I thought only the EADS tanker could do that. Amazing!

I find it more amazing that another country than the US is so clever and buys second hand B767s instead of expensive new-built ones.

Why could the USAF not buy second hand B767s after they will be retired due to the B787 deliveries?

It would be a "buy US only" as well as UA, DL, AA alone have sufficient B767s to offer...


 
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:14 am

Quoting 328JET (Reply 8):

Why could the USAF not buy second hand B767s after they will be retired due to the B787 deliveries?

There is not 190 B767 avalible on the market in one configuration in condition to be economical for coversion. More importantly the USAF wants an offload that requires the highest MTOW possible with the shortest length fuselage, which means new builds would be cheaper than conversions even if there was sufficent planes avalible on the used market.
 
Dakota
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:22 pm

Wat is the civilian history of the (KC) B-767MMTT for Colombia? Anyone knows?
 
cmb56
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:53 pm

If the mission is fuel with modest cargo then the 767-200 is a good buy if you can get some with good life left in them. Most -200s out there have a lot of hours and cycles on them. On the other hand given that even the USAF only puts about a 1000 hours a year on the 135s a high time airframe can last a long time.

The 767-300 ER is still years away from being dumped on the used market by pax operators.

If you want good cheap lift in this class of aircraft most if not all of AA's fleet of A300s is sitting in Roswell NM. They could be converted to freighter tankers pretty easy. Both conversions are available on the market in one form or another. I am not aware of any other group of aircraft from one fleet in one place that is this "available".
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:02 pm

Quoting Dakota (Reply 10):
Wat is the civilian history of the (KC) B-767MMTT for Colombia? Anyone knows?

The FAC currently has only 1 KC-707. They are looking at 2 KC-767MMTTs, and have options for up to 5 more. If they exercise all the options, it would have sold more than the KC-310MRTT.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:53 am

Quoting Dakota (Reply 10):
Wat is the civilian history of the (KC) B-767MMTT for Colombia? Anyone knows?

The current bird is ex-Air China.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 12):
The FAC currently has only 1 KC-707. They are looking at 2 KC-767MMTTs, and have options for up to 5 more. If they exercise all the options, it would have sold more than the KC-310MRTT.

Most KC-310MRTT's are conversions of government owned jets, and beyond Canada and Germany, the Thai's and the Pakistani's own 1 each, the Spanish and the Belgians have 2 each, and the French have 3. Germany and Canada own the largest government owned fleets of A310's, and for the smaller government operators, there's less incentive to modify their jets for the tanker role, not to mention the scarcity of A310's on the second hand market.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:00 am

[quote=328JET,reply=8]It would be a "buy US only"

Now that policy is something I can agree with 1000% I think I may have stated that before.  
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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kanban
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:18 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 7):
And all of them were conversions of used aircraft vs brand new KC767's


I beg to differ... all were conversions yes, but of new a/c straight off the production line that then went to mod centers for conversion and equipping... hence not "used".

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_milestones.html (authority added)

[Edited 2010-09-11 21:21:31]
 
328JET
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:56 am

I think converted B763s would be available worldwide in high numbers in the next years.

A very cheap option to get "new" tankers for the US.

The different engine is not a real argument against these used B767s as we are talking about high numbers, which could be operated from seperate bases.

After overhaul these "new" tankers would have much time left in their airframes as the yearly hour rate of tankers is very low.


Another option could be to buy both B762 and B763 to cover different missions.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:38 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 16):
I think converted B763s would be available worldwide in high numbers in the next years.

A very cheap option to get "new" tankers for the US.

That is true, since the B-767-300, B-767-300ER, and B-767-300ERF sold the most airframes of all B-767s.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:47 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 15):
I beg to differ... all were conversions yes, but of new a/c straight off the production line that then went to mod centers for conversion and equipping... hence not "used".

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_milestones.html (authority added)

I think the comparison is that the KC310's all had extensive hours on them prior to conversion from civilian and government operations (the current KC310's are conversions of aircraft that were purchased from defunct airlines Wardair/Canadian Pacific and Interflug who flew them for many years). A 767 just off the assembly line heading towards a conversion centre won't have the hours a A310 had when it went for conversion.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:36 pm

Any idea how many hours and cycles are on these former Air China B-767-200ERs? I would guess that IAI could add years to decades of avaiable service to them after conversion to the B-767MMTT.
 
cmb56
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:04 pm

For long haul aircraft in passenger service it is pretty easy to put 3000 hours a year on them. So some simple math for at 25 year old airframe give you on the high side of 70K hours and maybe 20K cycles. The life limit of the airframe in hours is over 100K so if you operate it as a military tanker and only put 500-1000 hours a year on it the life span is still very long. For countries that have a need for a tanker fleet in small numbers this would seem to be almost a no brainer. You can get a full squadron of used tankers for the cost of one flight of new ones. So what if you have to replace them in 25 years.
If you are using aircraft that don't need the boom better yet the conversion is much simpler. So there are direct routes to either a 767-200 or A310 tanker conversion. For an A300 tanker conversion it could mean starting from scratch, the A300 and A310 have different wings so the pod mounts would be critical. For a 767-300 conversion it should not be so bad. I believe all the 767 have the same basic wing.

For the US looking at a large fleet replacement the seed stock for a standardized remanufactured tanker just isn't there to support the replacement program time line. Better to buy new and while I have no particular favorite the 767-200 is a hard case to beat as more than good enough. Just an observation: at 1000 hours per year and scrapping at 60% of life limit the 767 tanker will still operate for at least 60 years. I think the KC135 fleet is only about at the 60% of life limit now.
 
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:53 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
Any idea how many hours and cycles are on these former Air China B-767-200ERs? I would guess that IAI could add years to decades of avaiable service to them after conversion to the B-767MMTT.
Quoting CMB56 (Reply 20):
For long haul aircraft in passenger service it is pretty easy to put 3000 hours a year on them. So some simple math for at 25 year old airframe give you on the high side of 70K hours and maybe 20K cycles. The life limit of the airframe in hours is over 100K so if you operate it as a military tanker and only put 500-1000 hours a year on it the life span is still very long. For countries that have a need for a tanker fleet in small numbers this would seem to be almost a no brainer. You can get a full squadron of used tankers for the cost of one flight of new ones. So what if you have to replace them in 25 years.

Thanks. I don't know about getting a full squadron (12-15 tankers) for the price of one new build tanker, though.
 
cmb56
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:11 pm

I believe I said for one flight of new ones. If a squadron = 16 then this would be 4 to 1. If you can pick up a used -200 for 30M and put 20M into it for the conversion that comes to at least 3 to 1. 4 to 1 is probably a stretch.

Better yet why not simply buy some of the retired 135s we have sitting around. My understanding is they have thousands of hours left on them. Buy six and use two for parts.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:48 pm

Quoting CMB56 (Reply 22):
Better yet why not simply buy some of the retired 135s we have sitting around. My understanding is they have thousands of hours left on them. Buy six and use two for parts.

The Chile Air Force already did that. They bought 3 KC-135Es, one is used as a spares hulk.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:23 pm

It seems the B-767MMTT has begun refueling tests already. The receiver is a C-10 Kfir.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...e93212-6028-4206-8ea9-7ae780ee4ca5
 
Devilfish
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:05 pm

Up close.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Yochai Mossi - AirTeamImages

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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:37 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 25):
Up close.....

Wow, she looks great with those big and long WARPs. I wonder if Boeing would consider using the IAI refueling pods on their KC-767NG?
 
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par13del
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:09 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 16):
I think converted B763s would be available worldwide in high numbers in the next years.

Why, a general a.net wisdom is that the A330 made the 767 obsolete yet they still are in service and not in boneyards, so maybe, just maybe, we should wait and see.
Why get 767's when A330's and 777's will be available shortly, since the 787 and the A350XWB are due in service shortly, rendering numerous of those a/c available for conversion, would it not be better to use the more modern airframes?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:28 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 27):
Why get 767's when A330's and 777's will be available shortly, since the 787 and the A350XWB are due in service shortly, rendering numerous of those a/c available for conversion, would it not be better to use the more modern airframes?

That would depend on the costs (including conversion) of the B-777 or A-330 airframes compared to the B-767 airframes.
 
328JET
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Sat Oct 30, 2010 8:09 am

Most civil pax A330s and B777s will end as converted freighters, but not for the military.

Quoting par13del (Reply 27):
Why, a general a.net wisdom is that the A330 made the 767 obsolete yet they still are in service and not in boneyards, so maybe, just maybe, we should wait and see.

The A330-200 came out too early for a replacement of the B767, but it virtually ended the sales of the B764 and partly B763.
 
cmb56
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:44 pm

Given the shear numbers of 767s / A330s / 777s that are in service I find it very difficult to envision "most" of them ending up as freighter conversions. A converted aircraft is attractive to the book keepers and the accountants but anyone who has dealt with maintaining "used" aircraft vs. "new" will tell you keeping your dispatch reliability up to the desired standard on a well worn converted aircraft is nearly impossible.
If you want reliable service buy new airframes and keep them maintained. If you want to minimize your capX then buy the used airframe but be prepared to pay in other ways.
From what I have seen of the two tanker proposals Boeing is putting enough into their offering to upgrade the technology (avionics) on the 767 that it comes up to par with or is even better than the A330 offering. Both manufacturers reviewed the option to upgrade the existing design and came to the conclusion that a clean sheet design was better for business. Boeing has chosen long ago now to compete with the A330 by bringing the 787 to the market. Airbus has responded by bringing the A350. And so it goes the slow evolution of aircraft design driven by the market place.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:14 pm

I would thing converting the A-340s into tankers would be a better and cheaper option for some AFs. They could get the capability of a converted A-330 tanker, at a lower cost since the A-340 has almost no re-market value these days.
 
Shmertspionem
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:38 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
A-340s into tankers would be a better and cheaper option for some AFs

cant an A-340 be converted into an A-330? since they have the same fuselage and wings - I thot they could remove the outboard engines, put more powerful a-330 engines on the inboard pylons and hose housing cylinders on the now empty outboard pylons.
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:31 pm

Quoting Shmertspionem (Reply 32):
cant an A-340 be converted into an A-330? since they have the same fuselage and wings - I thot they could remove the outboard engines, put more powerful a-330 engines on the inboard pylons and hose housing cylinders on the now empty outboard pylons.

Good question. It may be possible from an engineering point of view, but not economicly possible.
 
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larshjort
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:38 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
I would thing converting the A-340s into tankers would be a better and cheaper option for some AFs. They could get the capability of a converted A-330 tanker, at a lower cost since the A-340 has almost no re-market value these days.

I think that it would require quite some extra engineering as the A330 MRTT uses the plumbing in the wing normally used for engine 1 and 4 on the A340.
/Lars
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kc135topboom
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RE: IAI B-767MMTT Tanker Begins Flight Testing

Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:47 pm

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 34):
I think that it would require quite some extra engineering as the A330 MRTT uses the plumbing in the wing normally used for engine 1 and 4 on the A340.
/Lars

Probibly not as much as you would think. True a new hardpoint would be needed on the outer wing for the WARP. But the plumbing issues would not be that much. The USAF did not have to add a lot of plumbing to the 4 engine KC-135s on the ones that now can have WARPs.

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